286 réponses à ce sujet

[Vlad_Dracul]

I dont mean Tallis. Shes funny. But, Bioware...Why you destroy very good DLC story by nonsence in ending? Again?

In Legacy, I thought, that Corypheus is alive. no matter what. Strange, but reasonable, cause Hawke hadnt knowledge about Blight and Archdemons. In Larius, he will be weaker and without support, in Janeka, he infiltrate Gray Wardens by his deadly influence. So there actually was a choice, after all. I hope.

BUT in MotA, there ISNT any choice,:

- i cant kill Tallis (OK, perhaps Bioware need her for the future, and they cannot ressurected everyone - like Leliana and Anders xD)

- i cant punch Tallis (why not? so many Hawkes are Anti-Qunari. I helped Petrice, for example, and their religion is worse than Chantry, after all. She has false cute mask, she is cruel, and fanatic. So PUNCH)

- i cant save Duke (he is a little stupid, but not so bad. You helped Quanari assassin against him and he probably assumed, that there is a conspiracy against him, Empress and Orlais, in the End, when he attacked you = and i KNOW, when Hawke tried to help him - diplomatic choice - he tried to kill you - PURE NONSENCE. He was angry, but not mad, like Meredith or Bartrand)

- i cant take the scroll (at least TRY it! THERE SHOULD BE A CHANCE TO DO IT. Something. Anything.)

New idea: Hawke looked on names on that scroll with smile, and then he take scroll to Tallis. Very simple too, without real change, but it looks much better, as previous options


For price 800, i have everything, but most important thing - big choices - i havent.

Is this some bug, like with Witch Hunt, where missed final savepoint?

Thanks for DLC, you pissed many players with default unchangeable ending, without good reason to explain.:innocent:

And if there actually IS some a  choice, can you be gentle and tell me WHERE? Would you kindly?

EDIT: This DLC is IMHO best DLC for DA2, better than DAO DLCs and Legacy. There is practically everything amazing - except Ending, and this is very sad for me.

2 EDIT: At least chance to try to take the scroll without success is better than nothing, what Bioware gave to us in the end.

There is still little mysterious thing after all: WHY achievement said to us: "Defeat Duke Prosper with or without Tallis." HOW without? Can anyone explain that? She still returned to squad, so this is must be a JOKE.

Modifié par Vlad_Dracul, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:37 .

[DKJaigen]

Blah blah cry more about it. your either nitpicking which doesn't make me want to discuss this with you or your trolling which makes me also dont want to talk to you.why im talking to you and not flaming your ass. Because the mods would step in. damnit i dont have choice when im posting ,the horror,

[K_Tabris]

This makes no sense. There were more story choices in MotA than Witch Hunt and Legacy combined.

[caradoc2000]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

There were more story choices in MotA than Witch Hunt and Legacy combined.

Doesn't change the fact that the big final choice was missing.

[TeamLexana]

Considering it can be completed at any point after reaching Kirkwall, what kind of conclusion could there had been if u had been able to take the list from her or kill her then take the list? Maybe Hawke could frame the list! Or wipe her/his ass with it! Tallis HAD to leave with it and considering Tallis is cool, I don't mind that there's a pie in the sky possiblity she could come back in the future, if not DA2 then if the maker wills it DA3.

[Wulfram]

TeamLexana wrote...

Considering it can be completed at any point after reaching Kirkwall, what kind of conclusion could there had been if u had been able to take the list from her or kill her then take the list? 

Hawke could have given the list to the Orlesians.  Rather than just allowing the member of the Qunari thought police just to wander off with a list of the vast army of infiltrators the evil cultists who are plotting to enslave the continent?

At the least, Hawke could have been allowed to try.

Modifié par Wulfram, 12 octobre 2011 - 10:37 .

[CaptainBlackGold]

Gotta agree with the OP - the only thing that I did not like about this DLC was the "non-choice" at the ending. Mabe there are story reasons, in another DLC, expansion or for DA3 that they could not reveal - but honestly, none of my Hawkes would have allowed her to just walk away with a list like that.

After all, you spend all of chapter two defeating the Arishok - showing that the Qunari are an incredibly dangerous threat to all of Thedas - and then, you just let someone walk away with the weakest excuse possible? I could just hear Rev. Lovejoy's wife crying out, "Will somebody think of the children!"

However, having said that, I still enjoyed the DLC tremendously.

[Master Shiori]

Saving the Duke? Yeah, sure..

I'll save some guy who's hurling insults at me while hanging off the edge of a damn cliff. Riiight.

As for punching/killing Tallis, haven't you people already outgrown the phase where you want to kill every character that you happen to dislike for whatever reason?

As for taking the scroll from Tallis, I don't believe we should always have a choice of doing whatever crosses our mind. Sometimes it's nice to see things happening beyond our characters control. At the very least, it makes the said character come across as more real, rather than some perfect hero who can do whatever he/she wants.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Master Shiori wrote...

Saving the Duke? Yeah, sure..

I'll save some guy who's hurling insults at me while hanging off the edge of a damn cliff. Riiight.

As for punching/killing Tallis, haven't you people already outgrown the phase where you want to kill every character that you happen to dislike for whatever reason?

As for taking the scroll from Tallis, I don't believe we should always have a choice of doing whatever crosses our mind. Sometimes it's nice to see things happening beyond our characters control. At the very least, it makes the said character come across as more real, rather than some perfect hero who can do whatever he/she wants.

Options shouldn't be constantly provided for stuff you won't be able to do anyway.

You can threaten to kill Tallis, complete with Combat icon on the dialogue wheel, she just gives you the jewel and walks away unharmed (because it's not like you couldn't have taken it from her corpse).

You can order her to give you the scroll. She says no and walks away.

What is the point of such options if Hawke is not allowed to follow through? Better to not have them at all. The devs can't make the game so open that Hawke can do anything, but they can make the game so that Hawke doesn't always look like an indecisive idiot.

Meredith: Find these three runaway mages!
Hawke: No.
Hawke: ...oh, alright.

[Ausstig]

I agree, Dragon Age is about our choices, so maybe we can't actually kill Tallis, but we should at least get the scroll. More Railroading form Biowear, but hay at least they final stopped giveing us the illusion of choice.

[Brockololly]

Master Shiori wrote...
As for taking the scroll from Tallis, I don't believe we should always have a choice of doing whatever crosses our mind. Sometimes it's nice to see things happening beyond our characters control. At the very least, it makes the said character come across as more real, rather than some perfect hero who can do whatever he/she wants.

But thats one of the MAJOR complaints against DA2- that Hawke repeatedly comes across as ineffectual and helpless when it comes time for big moments of decision. Many people did not like how in DA2, no matter how you treated or dealt with Anders, he always bombed the Chantry. Orsino/Meredith always go bat**** crazy and fight Hawke. No matter what you do at the end of Legacy, Corypheus always goes free with one of the Wardens. Hell, you can go back to DAO with how people were pissed with how Morrigan always left  after the DR with either the Warden not able to follow or the Warden not able to punch/kill/spit in the general direction of Morrigan.

Its moments like these that completely rob the player of any agency and since they often happen at the end of the game/DLC, it leaves a tremendously bad lingering impression. Again, if BioWare has it set in stone that these certain events NEED to happen to set up something else in the future, at least bother to give the chance for the PC to do something. To at least voice displeasure with Talis or try to take the scroll or to express incredulity at the ridiculousness of Orsino turning into a Harvester when you're winning as a mage or have the Warden try to attack Morrigan as she leaves.

Its a fine line between having the NPC act out on their own and have them feel "real" as opposed to robbing the player of any agency once you enter mystical Cutscene World where you're completely at the mercy of the writers and cinematic designers.

I'd say this is one area where Witch Hunt got it right- you had a choice as to what could happen with Morrigan ( not without issues to an extent, but preferable IMO, to just sitting idly by while Plot Armored NPC walks all over everything with the player unable to do a damn thing).

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

But thats one of the MAJOR complaints against DA2- that Hawke repeatedly comes across as ineffectual and helpless when it comes time for big moments of decision. Many people did not like how in DA2, no matter how you treated or dealt with Anders, he always bombed the Chantry. Orsino/Meredith always go bat**** crazy and fight Hawke. No matter what you do at the end of Legacy, Corypheus always goes free with one of the Wardens. Hell, you can go back to DAO with how people were pissed with how Morrigan always left  after the DR with either the Warden not able to follow or the Warden not able to punch/kill/spit in the general direction of Morrigan.

Its moments like these that completely rob the player of any agency and since they often happen at the end of the game/DLC, it leaves a tremendously bad lingering impression. Again, if BioWare has it set in stone that these certain events NEED to happen to set up something else in the future, at least bother to give the chance for the PC to do something. To at least voice displeasure with Talis or try to take the scroll or to express incredulity at the ridiculousness of Orsino turning into a Harvester when you're winning as a mage or have the Warden try to attack Morrigan as she leaves.

Its a fine line between having the NPC act out on their own and have them feel "real" as opposed to robbing the player of any agency once you enter mystical Cutscene World where you're completely at the mercy of the writers and cinematic designers.

I'd say this is one area where Witch Hunt got it right- you had a choice as to what could happen with Morrigan ( not without issues to an extent, but preferable IMO, to just sitting idly by while Plot Armored NPC walks all over everything with the player unable to do a damn thing).

Let's put it like this:

Did Tallis explain why she wants the scroll and it's importance? Yes, she did.

Did you have the option of not helping her? Yes.

Unless we go by the reasoning that every character should be less skilled than Hawke, there's no reason why Tallis wouldn't be able to get the scroll and leave without you being able to stop her. Or that Anders couldn't pull off his plan without your help.

There are plenty of choices where your decisions matter. Just because you get one, every now and then, where things happen beyond your control doesn't mean the game walks all over you.

Also, your idea that a player should try and influence an event, even if the result is set in stone in advance, is what happened with Anders and the Chantry. You had the choice of not helping him or even warning the Chantry/templars. Though imo, giving players a choice in such a situation is more likely to result in frustration than not giving it at all. 

And with Morrigan, the problem wasn't her leaving no matter what. It was the fact that we had no idea if our choice to follow her would have any impact.

So, yes, it is a fine line, but personally I don't feel that Bioware has crossed that line in DA2 or any of it's DLC's. If you don't agree than fine.

[CuriousArtemis]

While I was fine with Hawke's lack of choice (my Hawke is a nice guy and wouldn't have forced the issue, so I was fine with letting her go peacefully), I understand the OP's disappointment.

Probably this means Tallis will return, although killing someone hasn't stopped them from coming back before.

[Master Shiori]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Saving the Duke? Yeah, sure..

I'll save some guy who's hurling insults at me while hanging off the edge of a damn cliff. Riiight.

As for punching/killing Tallis, haven't you people already outgrown the phase where you want to kill every character that you happen to dislike for whatever reason?

As for taking the scroll from Tallis, I don't believe we should always have a choice of doing whatever crosses our mind. Sometimes it's nice to see things happening beyond our characters control. At the very least, it makes the said character come across as more real, rather than some perfect hero who can do whatever he/she wants.

Options shouldn't be constantly provided for stuff you won't be able to do anyway.

You can threaten to kill Tallis, complete with Combat icon on the dialogue wheel, she just gives you the jewel and walks away unharmed (because it's not like you couldn't have taken it from her corpse).

You can order her to give you the scroll. She says no and walks away.

What is the point of such options if Hawke is not allowed to follow through? Better to not have them at all. The devs can't make the game so open that Hawke can do anything, but they can make the game so that Hawke doesn't always look like an indecisive idiot.

I agree the option to try and take the scroll from her shouldn't even be there, since it's clear that Tallis getting that scroll is pretty much the point of the whole DLC.

And while there are situations where saying "no" ends up the same as saying "yes" (I take issues with Act 3 as a whole, not just the scene you mentioned), that doesn't mean that every situation where you cannot effect the outcome of something is, by definition, bad.

[jlb524]

I doubt they'd let you kill Tallis, considering they might do more with Felicia Day in the future.

[TEWR]

jlb524 wrote...

I doubt they'd let you kill Tallis, considering they might do more with Felicia Day in the future.

It would be hard to kill her considering Redemption takes place after MotA I believe. Talk about your retcons!

But all in all, there should've been an option for Hawke to try and take it from her with force and still fail. Granted, I value her as a friend for all of my Hawkes, however anti-Qunari they may be. But it should've been there for those people who are anti-Qunari.

It at least then makes the player feel like "Hey, Hawke did try to do something!". Because a few words and then giving up when the person that was asked to hand over the scroll says "No" doesn't cut it.

"Hand it over!"
"No"
"Welp I tried everything I could think of!"

It's neither believable nor adequate. Hell, have certain companions hold Hawke back or have an enclave of Qunari find Tallis and bring her back! Just anything more than giving up so easily.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 octobre 2011 - 12:44 .

[Dave of Canada]

 My anti-Qunari Hawke who sided with Petrice and killed almost every Qunari he could find in the name of the Chantry was rather displeased when he couldn't do anything, not even try, to Tallis. I wouldn't have minded had he tried to fight Tallis and she got away, I wouldn't have minded if he hurt her and she rolled off the cliff and her fate is left to the player's imagination with the scroll not being found.

However, to create such a situation where you're presenting how the scroll can harm the Qunari and being forced to side against the Orlesians? That wasn't what I was expecting, unfortunately. I expected the final decision to be like Overlord, two different endings for the DLC.

The ending sort of ruined the DLC for me.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Just watched a playthrough of the DLC on Youtube, and I have to agree. In essense, it's well made piece of content: the story itself is amusing enough, the locations are nothing short of breathtaking compared to the original game, new gameplay elements are introduced in a fairly successful way, the character of Tallis is decent enough, there's some small choices made along the way and there even is some optional content, part of it exclusive to certain companions... and still it's not enough.

But Kaiser, didn't you just say it was a great piece of content? Indeed, I did, but BioWare doesn't get to score with just a railroaded story; the player was already powerless enough in the main game, never able to influence anything at all. With no player agency whatsoever, the appeal of these game starts to fade away rather quickly.

Some users - including myself - have likened Mass Effect as it currently is, without the promised consequences to our decisions, to be a 'mere' Gears of War clone with a dialogue simulator. Before DAII hit, I would never have dreamt I'd say this, but I'm starting to feel the same about Dragon Age, the main difference being that since the second game Mass Effect still has its strong core gameplay to rely on. In the end, the lack of choice feels like just an excuse for certain planned Qunari sub-plot in DAIII.

As for Legacy's end choice, don't fool yourself into thinking it's a real decision; that sub-plot will ultimately also move in the same direction regardless of who you sided with, the only possible difference being which body Corypheus will inhabit when he next appears. I assume the same will eventually hold true for Awakening's big decision, as the Architect still had Seranni as a standby vessel. Granted, those are more of a choice than Dragon Age II ever offered, but still: these are supposedly the same guys who brought us the Landsmeet, Orzammar politics, the power over life and death in many grand but also smaller situations... villains such as Loghain, and a merry band of relatively normal (read: not bat**** insane) but still emotionally engaging and relatable companions.

I can understand there being a decent amount of "But Thou Must" in these kind of games, as any given path can't divert too much from the main one, but there are not alternative paths in Dragon Age II. It simply keeps going at it with the aforementioned trope, going so far that even "No, I won't do that." is as much of an option as it would be in a random Japanese RPG, and while I would expect and accept that from a Golden Sun or any given Mario RPG, it certainly isn't acceptable to this extent in a BioWare title.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 13 octobre 2011 - 01:11 .

[wetnasty]

Vlad_Dracul wrote...

- i cant kill Tallis
- i cant punch Tallis
- i cant save Duke
- i cant take the scroll

The duke wants to kill you, of course you can't save him.

That's like complaining about not being able to save the Archdemon.

[Blacklash93]

I'm sure we'll move on from this and the series will be all the better for some of these set events.

For example, Corypheus would never be able to be a significant part of the story later on if we could kill him for good. It would be dedicating content that most people would never even see if you were given that choice. With him definitively alive, Bioware can develop him however they want in the future. He's too interesting to be set aside like he would have been otherwise.

Not that I'm excusing most of this lack of player agency. I'm just saying in some cases it could add more to the series than it takes away. In the big stuff, anyway.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 13 octobre 2011 - 01:18 .

[Blacklash93]

wetnasty wrote...

That's like complaining about not being able to save the Archdemon.

Well, you do technically get to save it. Just not as it is.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 13 octobre 2011 - 01:18 .

[TheJediSaint]

Blacklash93 wrote...

wetnasty wrote...

That's like complaining about not being able to save the Archdemon.

Well, you do technically get to save it. Just not as it is.

Arl Howe would be  a better example.

[Kaiser Shepard]

wetnasty wrote...

Vlad_Dracul wrote...

- i cant kill Tallis
- i cant punch Tallis
- i cant save Duke
- i cant take the scroll

The duke wants to kill you, of course you can't save him.

That's like complaining about not being able to save the Archdemon.

And that's where you make your mistake in analysing the story: you look at it from an in-univese perspective, just as it's given to you. The way you need to look at it is from a writers' perspective, where a couple of things could easily be changed to make more sense and allow an actual illusion of choice.

And Loghain also wanted to kill you, yet there still was an option to let him live. To compare: the team could also have chosen for the Landsmeet to take place on top of the castle, with Loghain eventually falling to his death due to circumstances outside of the players control, lets say a sudden gust of wind, regardless of what dialogue options the player chooses. Sure, from an in-universe perspective one could say that the Warden could've done nothing about that particular gust of wind, but that doesn't justify the bad writing on the writers' part.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 13 octobre 2011 - 01:26 .

[Leoroc]

This was my only real issue with the DLC also. Nowhere in DA2 has there really been any agency to Hawke's decisions. Had I been producing I would've had you either end up leading a mage rebellion or putting one down rather than the third act that happened (and no Harvestino if you side with mages or red-lyrium knight commander).

I thought DLC they were learning from those complaints but so far doesn't seem that way. In DAO I felt like I had an impact on the region/world when I chose werewolves over elves or bhelen over harrowmont. Not to mention who rules Ferelden. I am simply experiencing and reacting to events rather than creating them.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vlad_Dracul wrote...

In Legacy, I thought, that Corypheus is alive. no matter what. Strange, but reasonable, cause Hawke hadnt knowledge about Blight and Archdemons. In Larius, he will be weaker and without support, in Janeka, he infiltrate Gray Wardens by his deadly influence. So there actually was a choice, after all. I hope.

Wait, so I wasn't the only one thinking that something really suspicious was going on with Larius at the end of Legacy?