286 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

My eyes did just about roll out of my head by the time the intro cutscene was over, though.[...]
Given how far out of their way they went to show her effortlessly slaughtering several dozen trained Antivan Crows without so much as mussing her hair, I'm at a loss to explain how she would even notice the contributions of any of those people to her fights, much less actually require their help.

You know what? I'm glad I wasn't the only person who noticed this. I could not help comparing Tallis' intro to that of the core companions, and with the possible exception of Isabela it felt by far the longest in terms of showcasing her l33t skillz and character design while the party just stands there and the ten or so Crows in the area don't take the opportunity to shoot *Hawke* while she's distracted.

It's pretty hilarious. Aren't the crows supposed to be seasoned professionals? The best of the best if you're searching for assassins?
Well... maybe you should hire Tal-Vashoth assassins instead. They seem to outmatch them without a problem.

[Wulfram]

Auridesion wrote...

I can maybe see why you'd want to punch Tallis, but I think it ultimately belittles her character to allow such a thing to happen.  She's supposed to be a baddass. 

So is Hawke.  Yet s/hes role is nothing but a useful idiot for Tallis.

Taking the scroll would be meaningless.  What would you have done with it? 

Give it to the Orlesians.

[luk3us]

Yeah I was disappointed in the ending, I seriously thought my game bugged out when the option to kill Tallis came up, and then.... She just walked away? Really? Meh.

Up to that point it was great, the ending, like DA2 let it down.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Quething wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

Dragon Age 2 is Hawke's story. Thus, Hawke, should be the hero. Yet, at least twice in MoTA, Tallis gets an awesome cutscene where she drops in to save Hawke. This bothered me to no end, because HAWKE DOESN'T NEED RESCUING. My feelings towards Tallis would be much better from the beginning if Hawke had been strolling along, seen Tallis getting attacked, and jumped to her rescue.

I wasn't under the impression that she "saved" Hawke. Neither my troll!Hawke nor my diplomatic!Hawke seemed particularly perturbed by the ambush they found themselves in, and neither did any of their companions. Their weapons are ready, they're prepared to fight back, and then Tallis sticks her nose in before they can start.

My eyes did just about roll out of my head by the time the intro cutscene was over, though. For one, it shouldn't have been more than five seconds before Hawke &Co jumped in; it's bizarre and inane to have her show off for roughly twenty times that while the party stands around watching. For two... look, I hate the term Mary Sue. I loathe it. It's sexist crap that basically means "female character I don't like," on the rare occasion that it still means anything. I never use it. But you know what?

Aveline: Protects her husband by beating a single darkspawn with her bare hands, then beheading him.
Varric: Pins a running thief to the wall through his shoulder and recovers the purse he stole.
Anders: Heals an injured child, then threatens a group of well-armed strangers.
Fenris: Guts a single Tevinter commander after presumably dispatching several of his allies off-screen.
Isabela: Beats down three low-rent thugs, one of whom briefly gets the upper hand on her.
Sebastian: Makes a clean arrow shot to a stationary six-inch target from about forty feet away.

Oh, and Meredith, grand high badass of the entire game: Neuters and decapitates a single Sarebaas.

Compare that to Tallis' entrance and "Mary Sue" is just about the only phrase that fits. Given how far out of their way they went to show her effortlessly slaughtering several dozen trained Antivan Crows without so much as mussing her hair, I'm at a loss to explain how she would even notice the contributions of any of those people to her fights, much less actually require their help.

The writing redeemed her fairly quickly, IMO, but I will agree that intro left a very bad "trying WAY TOO HARD" first impression.

As for the end choice? Yeah. I deliberated over that for a long, long time; how much did that Hawke trust Tallis, and the clear shakiness she had in her faith? How great a danger did those Qunari agents pose? Enough that it was worth killing an ally and friend to stop it? Would she truly draw her blade and demand that scroll, or was it more in-character to let Tallis leave in peace?

Wish I'd have known I could have saved myself the trouble and just pretend the "hand it over" option didn't even exist. Since it fundamentally didn't. <_<

Agreed, I hate the way "Mary Sue" is used to mean "this character is too competent for my taste", especially when used by people who've learned from ivory-tower Lit Fic accademics that characters are supposed to be absolutely normal and unremarkable, or as you say, to mean "character that I don't like" or "female character who does things that male characters have been doing without criticism for centuries". 

And yet... from the classic meaning of the term "Mary Sue"... that opening sequence, and the way Hawke is alone with her for much of the campaign, and the railroad positive ending for Tallis... it's hard to avoid that hint of Mary Sue coming off the thing. 

And setting up the existence of that list, and then not giving an Act 3 Hawke any chance to get the thing, was BAD.  Hell, Hawke needed more chances to go off on Tallis about the Qunari being merciless oppressive fanatics. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:03 .

[lordnoak]

I agree that this DLC was disappointing. It was too silly (which damages my world view of the game) and the ending was a huge let down.

[ShawnStone]

Too much broken english...

[nynuwe]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Quething wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

Dragon Age 2 is Hawke's story. Thus, Hawke, should be the hero. Yet, at least twice in MoTA, Tallis gets an awesome cutscene where she drops in to save Hawke. This bothered me to no end, because HAWKE DOESN'T NEED RESCUING. My feelings towards Tallis would be much better from the beginning if Hawke had been strolling along, seen Tallis getting attacked, and jumped to her rescue.

I wasn't under the impression that she "saved" Hawke. Neither my troll!Hawke nor my diplomatic!Hawke seemed particularly perturbed by the ambush they found themselves in, and neither did any of their companions. Their weapons are ready, they're prepared to fight back, and then Tallis sticks her nose in before they can start.

^^ This. Remember that Varric's contact, Edge, was referring the party to meet with Tallis. If Hawke is attacked by assassins at the rendez-vous point, it's in Tallis's best interests to assist Hawke both to make sure you don't get killed but also to get into your good graces.

My eyes did just about roll out of my head by the time the intro cutscene was over, though.[...]
Given how far out of their way they went to show her effortlessly slaughtering several dozen trained Antivan Crows without so much as mussing her hair, I'm at a loss to explain how she would even notice the contributions of any of those people to her fights, much less actually require their help.

You know what? I'm glad I wasn't the only person who noticed this. I could not help comparing Tallis' intro to that of the core companions, and with the possible exception of Isabela it felt by far the longest in terms of showcasing her l33t skillz and character design while the party just stands there and the ten or so Crows in the area don't take the opportunity to shoot *Hawke* while she's distracted.

I like Tallis and the DLc overall, but the intro had no need to make such a big deal over its focus NPC when she's with you for practically all of it. Whether intentional or not, it did have a distinct air of trying too hard.

Because Tallis = Felicia Day.

Use the famous face of an actress as your poster girl as you get money. It's like when Britney Spears appears in Pepsi commercials. When Jordan shows up wearing his Nike shoes.

Using a celebrity, or just a famous face your customers can sympathize and relate with, is just a marketing ploy. Having Felicia Day become Dragon Age II newest DLC's poster face and basically have her involved now in the story of the series is only done purely for business interest. No care or interest on what players wanted went into this game. I bet you that the improve in dialogue choices was actually done at her behest, not ours.

And Felicia Day wrote Tallis. Not BioWare. This is *her* character. Her baby. This is not an actual original character. We can't say "Oh David Gaider is Fenris, Mary Kirby is Merril, and Sheryl Chee is Isabella." Because they are professional writers. Character design is their forte and they are over the phase of making every character after their own image. A mature writer understands what it is to make various characters with different personalities, and not feel the need to make a single one of them a clone of themselves. Felicia Day has not gotten over the phase of making every character a projection of herself. Tallis is the Dragon Age version of Felicia Day, and it would be very bad business if BioWare did anything to make her possibly look less than epic badass, and sexy. In this business deal, Felicia Day gets to show off, and BioWare brings in all the money from all the fans who were just ecstatic to have Felicia Day in their game.

Look, I know the character feels well written, but a part of it is because it is based on an actual real person. Its very easy to make a character achieve balance and depth if you base it off the personality of someone you know. That's why people loved and sympathized with her. In a way, we are roleplaying with Felicia Day. And while I do not approve of her getting into the Dragon Age plot without actually becoming a BioWare writer (I don't like it when celebrities basically get addicted to fame and started doing anything to get more attention and shove their images into our brains),  I have to admit, she looks like a fun girl to hang out with. So by extension, her character Tallis must also be a fun girl to hang around with. She certainly makes us laugh.

But again I state, Tallis = Felicia, expect more overboard badassery and Marys Sueness from her in the future. I almost fear watching her webseries. Sorry, but I hate Mary Sues. And no I do not use them to refer to any female I don't like. So far, as someone else has stated, no other character in this game, and let me add, in Dragon Age Origins either, has gained this title.
---------------------
On the topic brought by the OP....
I like to think that maybe they sent most of the brains they had in BioWare to focus on finsihing SW:TOR in time, and maybe that's why they let that obviously bad ending slip by. Nah, I know its not that... but a girl can dream.

Its obvious they don't use objective, non-affiliated game testers to tell them "This ending sucks, my Hawke didn't even lunge at her as she slipped away". So I wonder if they actually do anything to get objective input about their creations before sending them away to the store shelves. Probably not, and its possible this is something only a few gaming companies do for their non-MMO titles.

Anyways, BioWare has cared less and less about player input and has become too attached to their own story. I really am curious about how the story will go but I would rather read in in a wiki page, or maybe in a book. I don't feel like playing it through anymore. Unless, they make DAIII a table top game, that actually has more appeal now to me.

Modifié par nynuwe, 14 octobre 2011 - 05:40 .

[Vlad_Dracul]

ShawnStone wrote...

Too much broken english...

Me donta agree..:innocent:



Besides, this topic prooved necessity to rectify final choices in next DLC (and DA3)

Again to Bioware guys and girls: Good work on Mark of the Assassin, but nobody there cannot forget or forgive awkward ending, where their heroes looks like an idiot (sorry for this word, Mr. Woo, but "moron" is used too much often).

[Jonnas-Infinity]

I really can't see why bioware has made such a big deal over this DLC. It showcases the fact that they could strip out every single dialogue option and every single line of voice acting since the DLC will play exactly the frigging same every time anyway.

It is nothing more than a couple of decent puzzles with fights tagged on. The complete and utter lack of input from the player in any aspect of this DLC whatsever kills it for me. Every single outcome in every single conversation regardless of the option you choose is exactly the same. What a waste of time and money.

[Maverick827]

nynuwe wrote...

I almost fear watching her webseries. 

Couldn't be farther from the truth.

[nynuwe]

Maverick827 wrote...

nynuwe wrote...

I almost fear watching her webseries. 

Couldn't be farther from the truth.

For who? I was speaking for myself, not anyone else. That wasn't a comment I wrote on a whim. There is a reason why I said as much. If you truly care to know it, send a PM, I dislike continuing arguments for too long in these threads. So I encourage people that like to debate with me (debate =/= fight, don't get the wrong idea guys) to do so through messages. If not, let's leave it at that. Is that ok with you?

[Brockololly]

Jonnas-Infinity wrote...
The complete and utter lack of input from the player in any aspect of this DLC whatsever kills it for me. Every single outcome in every single conversation regardless of the option you choose is exactly the same. What a waste of time and money.

Yup- I mean, you opt to choose the action/violence icon to attack Tallis at the end with the paraphrase "Now you die!" and all Hawke does is threaten, meanwhile its like Tallis is totally deaf and in another universe as she gives Hawke back the jewel and just skips off as Hawke stands there.

[TEWR]

Brockololly wrote...

Jonnas-Infinity wrote...
The complete and utter lack of input from the player in any aspect of this DLC whatsever kills it for me. Every single outcome in every single conversation regardless of the option you choose is exactly the same. What a waste of time and money.

Yup- I mean, you opt to choose the action/violence icon to attack Tallis at the end with the paraphrase "Now you die!" and all Hawke does is threaten, meanwhile its like Tallis is totally deaf and in another universe as she gives Hawke back the jewel and just skips off as Hawke stands there.

makes you wonder what Bioware was thinking doesn't it? I mean, the DLC is great up until that point. That one point just kills the DLC if you play an anti-Qunari Hawke. A simple battle between the two would've sufficed that ends with Tallis either running away, defeating Hawke and company, or being taken back by a Qunari enclave that went out to search for Tallis after she went on an unsanctioned Qunari mission.

[ThePasserby]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Jonnas-Infinity wrote...
The complete and utter lack of input from the player in any aspect of this DLC whatsever kills it for me. Every single outcome in every single conversation regardless of the option you choose is exactly the same. What a waste of time and money.

Yup- I mean, you opt to choose the action/violence icon to attack Tallis at the end with the paraphrase "Now you die!" and all Hawke does is threaten, meanwhile its like Tallis is totally deaf and in another universe as she gives Hawke back the jewel and just skips off as Hawke stands there.

makes you wonder what Bioware was thinking doesn't it? I mean, the DLC is great up until that point. That one point just kills the DLC if you play an anti-Qunari Hawke. A simple battle between the two would've sufficed that ends with Tallis either running away, defeating Hawke and company, or being taken back by a Qunari enclave that went out to search for Tallis after she went on an unsanctioned Qunari mission.

For me, that last interaction soured the DLC. All my Hawkes killed Qunari with relish, with the exeption of the chained mage. To have Tallis waltz off with the list while Hawke stands there impotently makes it to have zero replayability. An agent of the Qunari thought-police, no matter how charming, is an enemy. None of my Hawkes will let the scroll out of their grasps without at least trying.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

nynuwe wrote...

Because Tallis = Felicia Day.

Use the famous face of an actress as your poster girl as you get money. It's like when Britney Spears appears in Pepsi commercials. When Jordan shows up wearing his Nike shoes.

Using a celebrity, or just a famous face your customers can sympathize and relate with, is just a marketing ploy. Having Felicia Day become Dragon Age II newest DLC's poster face and basically have her involved now in the story of the series is only done purely for business interest. No care or interest on what players wanted went into this game. I bet you that the improve in dialogue choices was actually done at her behest, not ours.

While I will certainly agree that putting an actor in a DLC was a marketting plot (particularly an actor with internet gaming geek cred like FD), I can't comment on the dialogue improvements being all thanks to her. We don't know that. She is enthusiastic about roleplaying games and Dragon Age, so one could hope she had a positive effect on production of the DLC, but saying that just because a character looks like her and has her voice then it is her is a bit stupid. That'd mean every actor in the world plays him/herself in movies and tv series. Why accuse a computer game of it? Because Tallis looks like Felicia Day? So what? If Arl Howe had looked like Tim Curry would we be accusing him of playing himself?

As for suggesting she wrote her own dialogue... o_O Whut? Maybe you should ask a dev before leaping to such conclusions, unless you want to keep such 'personal truths' as an excuse to dislike Felicia Day's involvement.

[Huntress]

wetnasty wrote...

Vlad_Dracul wrote...

- i cant kill Tallis
- i cant punch Tallis
- i cant save Duke
- i cant take the scroll

The duke wants to kill you, of course you can't save him.

That's like complaining about not being able to save the Archdemon.

ROFL.
My hawke couldn't kill petrice, hang the old priest for sitting on her thumps for 7 years or /stab -> Sebastian.. yes life sux for hawke.

The DLC was very good, you can't kill tallis because she is someone who has to survive, she has a future just a leliana and Anders had, Bioware shouldn't have allow the warden or Hawke to kill any companion to begin with. if any of this companion will never made a return then make a random encounter of a dead body with a note" here lies..xoxxo"

Modifié par Huntress, 15 octobre 2011 - 02:00 .

[Nyreen]

HA! OP expected DA2 to give you a choice, to have Hawke actually have an impact plot-wise. That's funny. Anyone who's played DA2 knows there's no such thing.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Huntress wrote...

wetnasty wrote...

Vlad_Dracul wrote...

- i cant kill Tallis
- i cant punch Tallis
- i cant save Duke
- i cant take the scroll

The duke wants to kill you, of course you can't save him.

That's like complaining about not being able to save the Archdemon.

ROFL.
My hawke couldn't kill petrice, hang the old priest for sitting on her thumps for 7 years or /stab -> Sebastian.. yes life sux for hawke.

The DLC was very good, you can't kill tallis because she is someone who has to survive, she has a future just a leliana and Anders had, Bioware shouldn't have allow the warden or Hawke to kill any companion to begin with. if any of this companion will never made a return then make a random encounter of a dead body with a note" here lies..xoxxo"

So... you're actually advocating for less choices and roleplaying?

[Joy Divison]

The OP is right.

If Tallis *had* to live, fine, but the DLC should have given the player the meaningful choice to take/keep the scroll.

[Vlad_Dracul]

Celestina wrote...

HA! OP expected DA2 to give you a choice, to have Hawke actually have an impact plot-wise. That's funny. Anyone who's played DA2 knows there's no such thing.

There isnt need of big choices. We need good illusion, when we must go to do some choices.

If Bioware take to MotA ending, where you still cannot take the scroll, and Tallis will be alive, but our Hawkes could do something, even without success, is it better option than what we already have in game.

[Nyreen]

Vlad_Dracul wrote...

Celestina wrote...

HA! OP expected DA2 to give you a choice, to have Hawke actually have an impact plot-wise. That's funny. Anyone who's played DA2 knows there's no such thing.

There isnt need of big choices. We need good illusion, when we must go to do some choices.

If Bioware take to MotA ending, where you still cannot take the scroll, and Tallis will be alive, but our Hawkes could do something, even without success, is it better option than what we already have in game.

I agree. I'm surprised they didn't even let us try and take the scroll, even unsuccessfully. It's like they didn't even bother reading fan feedback about "lack of meaningful choice". If DA3 doesn't correct this, it's the end of the series for me.

[FASherman]

What makes you think the end of the DLC is the end? I got the impression that this was Chapter 1 of a new story. If Bioware is smart, they'll keep this story arc going in DLC for for another 2 1/2 years, giving them time to code out a better DA3, and then have this story flow into the start of DA3.

[Yrkoon]

FASherman wrote...

What makes you think the end of the DLC is the end?

 Because this has been the case, without exception,  for as long as Bioware has existed.     Since in   11 years of  Bioware games, 7 years of which contained DLC,     There's yet to be a single instance of  a DLC-specific  plot continuing to another DLC, let alone a future  Bioware game.

In other words, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.  Some of us are still waiting for a  continuation/conclusion to Witch Hunt, which, interestingly enough, featured the same sort  helpless 'ending':    Follow Morrigan, or don't follow Morrigan.   Period.   Wanna kill morrigan?  Nope sorry.  can't do that, she just walks away.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 octobre 2011 - 02:13 .

[FASherman]

Yrkoon wrote...

FASherman wrote...

What makes you think the end of the DLC is the end?

 Because this has been the case, without exception,  for as long as Bioware has existed.     Since in   11 years of  Bioware games, 7 years of which contained DLC,     There's yet to be a single instance of  a DLC-specific  plot continuing to another DLC, let alone a future  Bioware game.

In other words, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.  Some of us are still waiting for a  continuation/conclusion to Witch Hunt, which, interestingly enough, featured the same sort  helpless 'ending':    Follow Morrigan, or don't follow Morrigan.   Period.   Wanna kill morrigan?  Nope sorry.  can't do that, she just walks away.

And how many times have they had a web series tited to a DLC? Let me think on it...never. So this does have the potential to be something unique, doesn't it? The web series tie in does give Bioware the opportunity to develop a story arc both and and out of the game. Its a great marketing tool. Better than a Facebook game and they know it. its marketing gold.

[Yrkoon]

The inclusion of a web series just means that any loose plot threads from the DLC could conceivably be addressed in the web series.  Is that what you're hoping for?    No, I didn't think so.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 15 octobre 2011 - 05:29 .