226 réponses à ce sujet

[CannonO]

G3rman wrote...

Please, you call N7 missions exploration? They were very limited areas of the planet that you accomplished a short mission then left.

I'm all for variety of environments but you can't just consider that exploration.

That's kind of the point of this thread. We feel that linearity took over the optional and expanded locations, but that it has been given credit as still being the exploration of ME2. It would be nice to have more open exploration, hence the title. Many people still do feel ME2 had exploration, so yes, I will say journeying to those missions was ME2's answer for exploration.

G3rman wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Which is exactly what ME1 exploration was. The only difference is Instead of driving around a planet - you scanned and teased open a landing zone from orbit.

This wording..is just a little weird.

@Jreezy, makes me think they just want a driving sim on an alien planet.

No. Read what we have said. You are oversimplifying for argument's sake. We want the exploration feature to have a similar, but improved and more important open role.

Modifié par CannonLars, 31 janvier 2012 - 04:42 .

[Icinix]

jreezy wrote...

Icinix wrote...

G3rman wrote...

Please, you call N7 missions exploration? They were very limited areas of the planet that you accomplished a short mission then left.

I'm all for variety of environments but you can't just consider that exploration.

Which is exactly what ME1 exploration was. The only difference is Instead of driving around a planet - you scanned and teased open a landing zone from orbit.

So basically people actually do miss the Mako.

Well...I do.

But what I miss more than that is the freedom to find those missions on an open world. Personally I would rather drive / fly / hover around finding those N7 missions on a planet than just find a landing spot from orbit and press a 'start mission' button from space.

Scanning planet from orbit < driving over snow covered hills in a snow storm as a sun sets on the horizon, barely visible through the haze of horizontal whipping snow.

[G3rman]

Driving over endless plains or having to drive up steep mountains got REALLY boring after the first recycled planet, which wasn't long.

I don't see why in ME3 it should have a more major role..what scenarios would it make sense. In ME1 I can see it good for showing players how expansive the galaxy is but in ME3..you are inserting into warzones that need to be small maps to keep scripted events and such on track.

Just seems a little pointless to do with the game's setting; introduce lots of new planets yes, but vehicle exploration no.

[someone else]

jreezy wrote...
So basically people actually do miss the Mako.

"... i want my mako!"  - special geriatic achievement award to anyone identifying the breakfast cereal take-off - but yeah, sure, one of the best parts of ME1 missing from ME2 was the open world exploration - even if most of them were plagued with uniformity and sameness - what I would give to explore Aite - mako or HH - btw, I'd love a hybrid - never understood why the mako was earthbound.

[CannonO]

G3rman wrote...

Driving over endless plains or having to drive up steep mountains got REALLY boring after the first recycled planet, which wasn't long.

I don't see why in ME3 it should have a more major role..what scenarios would it make sense. In ME1 I can see it good for showing players how expansive the galaxy is but in ME3..you are inserting into warzones that need to be small maps to keep scripted events and such on track.

Just seems a little pointless to do with the game's setting; introduce lots of new planets yes, but vehicle exploration no.

You seem to be strictly thinking about ME1 issues instead of what they could do with it in ME3.

I'd love to land on some great open planets and drive to the location of the N7 Missions instead of never see anything but linearity.

They can make quality planets with good terrain if they want to.

Modifié par CannonLars, 31 janvier 2012 - 04:54 .

[G3rman]

I'm not thinking about what they could for ME3 because THERE isn't a place where it should have a major role. Vehicle combat yes but vehicle exploration no. It's a war, reapers everywhere. Even if you go to a minor planet for something unassuming, chances are there is going to be a fight there.

[Icinix]

G3rman wrote...

Driving over endless plains or having to drive up steep mountains got REALLY boring after the first recycled planet, which wasn't long.

You never had to drive up steep mountains. The game allowed you too. If you chose that path then woe is you.

There were always graduated slopes and ways around.

I don't see why in ME3 it should have a more major role..what scenarios would it make sense. In ME1 I can see it good for showing players how expansive the galaxy is but in ME3..you are inserting into warzones that need to be small maps to keep scripted events and such on track.

If you want scripted events and small maps ... play COD. Just saying.

But first off - even in a galactic war, there are still places free of conflict AND in a game environment, especially one that will cover 30 hours or more, you need places for the gamer to take a break and escape.

Just seems a little pointless to do with the game's setting; introduce lots of new planets yes, but vehicle exploration no.

The exploration is used to discover the mission outside the scope of quest givers on hub worlds. Not just have an empty world you whizz around in.

[G3rman]

That is extremely impractical to land on a planet and explore for what could be hours or days for conflict when they could just as easily scan in orbit and deploy you directly in the combat zone. That is what scanning is going to do now I believe.

[Icinix]

G3rman wrote...

That is extremely impractical to land on a planet and explore for what could be hours or days for conflict when they could just as easily scan in orbit and deploy you directly in the combat zone. That is what scanning is going to do now I believe.

I think you missed the point for exploration.

As for impractical, very few parts of any game you play are practical. If they were practical they would probably cease to be fun and many people would not play them.  We play games for entertainment, not to be practical. Really, I could list a very long list of impractical features of ME.

Regardless, exploration was always optional. It was never forced upon any player, so I don't see why you would rather have it absent from the game than in there where lots of other fans could continue to enjoy a much loved aspect of the ME series.

[BillsVengenace]

It saddens me greatly that the series took the action route rather than the exploration route.

Exploration of the universe was one of the main reasons I bought Mass Effect in the first place. A unique hook for modern RPGs.

[Bluko]

G3rman wrote...

Icinix wrote...

G3rman wrote...

Go play a 4x or space sim if you want to explore uncharted worlds? Just a thought..

Since the space and exploration aspect were marketed and well defined points for the Mass Effect series.

For the first one MAYBE..it really wasn't made a big deal at all in either game.

Actually they did at one point intend to have the Mako in ME2. The good doctors themselves said so in a 2009 interview I believe. Also whilst reading thru the script I came upon some stuff that was from ME2. Not sure what it was doing there. Anyways Zaeed's recruitment mission was suppose to have you driving the Mako to meet Zaeed at some seedy Batarian Bar. Of course this was back when they probably intended to have Zaeed in the main game.


But I think I know where you're coming from...

"Bla bla bla ME1 sucked and was boring. Everything ME1 did was wrong and could never possibly work in a video game. Exploration sucks cause I think it means every world has to be a simple landscape like ME1and could not be improved to have anything interesting. Also because I tried to drive a tank up the side of mountain, the Mako therefore sucks and has terrible controls. I need Bioware to make the game dumby proof for me, cause things like inventory and skill trees are immensely complicated. Also planet scanning is such a better alternative as a time sink! You can't even skip resource mining unless you want to have most of your crew wind up dead. Obviously this is an improvement over the otherwise totally optional ME1 side missions that I hate and haved forced myself to play through."

Seriously this is about the gist of what I get from folks on that side of the fence.

The Mass Effect games have always been about exploration. That's the whole freaking premise of the series. If Shepard just stayed on Earth the whole time shooting mooks and hitting on aliens, the Reapers would have ROFL stomped the entire galaxy.

I guess I'm weird for still liking ME1, and not giving all praise to ME2. And hey don't get me wrong I do like ME2, I just don't find it perfect.

Ideally for me ME3 would have things both from games. I'd be fine with the corridor levels if I had some large open environments to romp around in the Mako again to switch things up a bit. I really fail to see why it's impossible to have both, that way no matter what your preference there's something for everyone to enjoy. And you have the added bonus of level diversity. But nope if you don't absolutely love everything about ME2 you gotta get GTFO. Cause obviously since ME1 was such a terrible game no one bought it and for seemingly unknown reasons Bioware created a sequel(s).

Modifié par Bluko, 31 janvier 2012 - 06:07 .

[AlanC9]

Icinix wrote...
It WAS a very big deal in ME1 - to the point marketing videos and interviews talked about it a lot..

Could someone point me to one of those videos? I never saw one pushing the exploration, but I didn't really follow the ME1 marketing.

[AlanC9]

BillsVengenace wrote...
Exploration of the universe was one of the main reasons I bought Mass Effect in the first place. A unique hook for modern RPGs.

I thought the TES games were all about this sort of thing. I wouldn't know; after Morrowind I gave up on the series.

[AlanC9]

Bluko wrote...
The Mass Effect games have always been about exploration. That's the whole freaking premise of the series. If Shepard just stayed on Earth the whole time shooting mooks and hitting on aliens, the Reapers would have ROFL stomped the entire galaxy.

That's extremely silly. The premise of the series is not exploration; with the single exception of finding Liara's dig site, Shepard doesn't have to explore anything. Cut all the UNC and N7 missions out of ME1 and ME2 and Shepard still stops the Reapers just fine.

[AlanC9]

And I guess I'll wrap it up for the night with this:

CannonLars wrote...
I never had trouble with the Mako and found several of the planets to be fantastic. Not sure how exploring uncharted worlds and making discoveries throughout the galaxy of abandoned probes, fallen astronauts, and foreign creatures roaming the fields of a strange world doesn't get your astronaut role-play going and scifi love rising.

That's the problem -- I'm not role-playing an astronaut, I'm role-playing a soldier.

[Bluko]

G3rman wrote...

That is extremely impractical to land on a planet and explore for what could be hours or days for conflict when they could just as easily scan in orbit and deploy you directly in the combat zone. That is what scanning is going to do now I believe.

Isn't it also impractical to land a shuttle directly outside or inside an enemy base? Wouldn't it make sense sometimes to land a distance away so you could approach it from safe direction before you attack? And also none of these bases have defense turrets or patrols to prevent aerial drops? I don't believe the "Shoebox" shuttle has any stealth systems so it's probably pretty easy pickings even for small arms. Personally I'd think in some instances it'd be more fun to land a distance away. That you could go for a frontal assault with a vehicle, or perhaps you could find a way to sneak into the base on foot.

Unfortunately it seems we will never have the chance to experience such, even though I think it would suit Mass Effect quite well and add a lot of replay value to some of the otherwise more simple missions.

I was honestly hoping Arrival would do something like this given it was suppose to be a secret mission type thing. But nope you land right outside a Batarian Prison no problem and with no alarms of any kind set off. It's pretty hilarious when you think about it.

[Bluko]

AlanC9 wrote...

And I guess I'll wrap it up for the night with this:

CannonLars wrote...
I never had trouble with the Mako and found several of the planets to be fantastic. Not sure how exploring uncharted worlds and making discoveries throughout the galaxy of abandoned probes, fallen astronauts, and foreign creatures roaming the fields of a strange world doesn't get your astronaut role-play going and scifi love rising.

That's the problem -- I'm not role-playing an astronaut, I'm role-playing a soldier.

Soldiers magically land at all their destinations and never ride in vehicles or have to traverse open landscape? News to me. Guess I missed the part where Shepard was described as a Paratrooper.

Also in regards to your earlier statement about exploration not being advertised. 


Heck even ME2 gave the impression you'd get to set foot in some large open spaces. You know instead of simply always following the yellow brick road. At the end there it looks like you were going to have to fight through an entire city.

I mean really I don't understand people's frustration over ME1 in this regard. No one made you survey rocks. And there was no achievement for it either. It's just something you did if you wanted a few extra credits. Don't like the astronaut thing about being a Space Marine then don't do it. Not like you had to do any of the ME1 planetary missions for any reason other then completion. In fact I have at times skipped them as well. But I say it's better to have the option of embarking on side missions, then not being able to at all.

Modifié par Bluko, 31 janvier 2012 - 07:00 .

[CannonO]

AlanC9 wrote...

And I guess I'll wrap it up for the night with this:

CannonLars wrote...
I never had trouble with the Mako and found several of the planets to be fantastic. Not sure how exploring uncharted worlds and making discoveries throughout the galaxy of abandoned probes, fallen astronauts, and foreign creatures roaming the fields of a strange world doesn't get your astronaut role-play going and scifi love rising.

That's the problem -- I'm not role-playing an astronaut, I'm role-playing a soldier.

www.answers.com/topic/astronaut

[CannonO]

Bluko wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

And I guess I'll wrap it up for the night with this:

CannonLars wrote...
I never had trouble with the Mako and found several of the planets to be fantastic. Not sure how exploring uncharted worlds and making discoveries throughout the galaxy of abandoned probes, fallen astronauts, and foreign creatures roaming the fields of a strange world doesn't get your astronaut role-play going and scifi love rising.

That's the problem -- I'm not role-playing an astronaut, I'm role-playing a soldier.

Soldiers magically land at all their destinations and never ride in vehicles or have to traverse open landscape? News to me. Guess I missed the part where Shepard was described as a Paratrooper.

Also in regards to your earlier statement about exploration not being advertised. 


Heck even ME2 gave the impression you'd get to set foot in some large open spaces. You know instead of simply always following the yellow brick road. At the end there it looks like you were going to have to fight through an entire city.

I mean really I don't understand people's frustration over ME1 in this regard. No one made you survey rocks. And there was no achievement for it either. It's just something you did if you wanted a few extra credits. Don't like the astronaut thing about being a Space Marine then don't do it. Not like you had to do any of the ME1 planetary missions for any reason other then completion. In fact I have at times skipped them as well. But I say it's better to have the option of embarking on side missions, then not being able to at all.

I don't get it either. It is a huge feature that many people wanted to see improved upon, not eliminated in exchange for linearity. If you insist that the story suddenly makes Shepard efficient in ME3 and it is no longer playable like a game, then you are free to avoid any side travels and exploration that doesn't forward the main plot. The rest of us would like to talk to reporters, find scientists on foreign planets, and definitely get to dance in a club. Mass Effect is so not about the rushing you guys seem to be saying is why we shouldn't get to explore. Time doesn't work that way in games.

[Icinix]

AlanC9 wrote...

And I guess I'll wrap it up for the night with this:

CannonLars wrote...
I never had trouble with the Mako and found several of the planets to be fantastic. Not sure how exploring uncharted worlds and making discoveries throughout the galaxy of abandoned probes, fallen astronauts, and foreign creatures roaming the fields of a strange world doesn't get your astronaut role-play going and scifi love rising.

That's the problem -- I'm not role-playing an astronaut, I'm role-playing a soldier.

...and I role play as a spaceship commander leading a rag tag bunch of people on exploration through space in an attempt to do whatever I can to help the citizens of the galaxy and find a way to stop the reapers.


...the only other difference is I'm not telling you you should not be able to play the game you want to since ME1 because I don't agree with it.

[Il Divo]

CannonLars wrote...

You skipped the other half of my comment. I was pointing out that despite having such information, he would not use it to justify a lack of efficiency at the cost of Saren, Geth, and Collectors' victims.

I don't even understand how you can play this and not metagame. You said it yourself that you'd do things on the Citadel that aren't related, simply because you are there. That itself assumes he will put the urgent war matters on the shelf for more trivial experiences. If there is some value put into missions on uncharted or random worlds, I want that experience. Are you not going to do any of those Rescue missions because they require the player to acknowledge that Shepard is going to step away from war duties for more minor matters that will take days or weeks, which is irresponsible if this is treated like real time?

You sound on the one hand like you don't want to spend any time outside the logical main story timing treated like a real war, but on the other hand it sounds like you see the value in things like Conrad Verner or side missions, even when they are on other planets far from the main path. I am a little lost as to whether you are saying exploration doesn't make sense here so you want it gone or its resources applied to your wants, or if you are saying that you are okay with most of it like Conrad and such and even on other planets as long as it has some point for having you go that far out of the way?

Maybe you could explain how you would go about approaching the story, side encounters, exploration of locations, and side travels.

Well, if you've played KotOR (my personal favorite RPG, so apologies if I'm constantly slobbering all over it), that's essentially my "ideal" RPG, in terms of side quest layout and quality.

In KotOR there's one quest where a woman asks the character for help in selling a wraid plate. The quest takes place along the path of the main quest and requires that the player step into a building for a few minutes to sell the object.

Comparatively speaking, let's look at the Nassana Dantius questline in Mass Effect, which requires that my character return to the Citadel, speak to her, travel into the required star cluster, and then back to the Citadel.

Both side quests involving helping people, yet on completely different scales regarding the time commitment to helping them. Most of KotOR's quests are designed to maximize blending with the main quest, while most of the Mass Effect UNC missions are designed to send me out of my way to help people.

In other words: the greater the emphasis the storyline places on a time limit (as ME does), the harder it is to justify the character completing a quest, especially if it requires that he go in the opposite direction of his goal. Helping the woman might have taken what, in-game? 5 minutes, if that? The equivalent act of helping Nassana would have taken several weeks, in all likelihood.

In keeping with that, side quests on the Citadel (for the most part) aren't really a problem, since they're completed locally, on a similar time scale to helping the woman. It's the exploration missions that cause problems.

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:31 .

[Il Divo]

Bluko wrote...

I mean really I don't understand people's frustration over ME1 in this regard. No one made you survey rocks. And there was no achievement for it either. It's just something you did if you wanted a few extra credits. Don't like the astronaut thing about being a Space Marine then don't do it. Not like you had to do any of the ME1 planetary missions for any reason other then completion. In fact I have at times skipped them as well. But I say it's better to have the option of embarking on side missions, then not being able to at all.

If we're not going to do them, ultimately that's content that could be used for any number of activities (longer main plot, more dialogue, etc). Side quests which I don't complete or don't like mean that I am receiving less for my money. Who would argue for such a thing?

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:34 .

[BillsVengenace]

AlanC9 wrote...

BillsVengenace wrote...
Exploration of the universe was one of the main reasons I bought Mass Effect in the first place. A unique hook for modern RPGs.

I thought the TES games were all about this sort of thing. I wouldn't know; after Morrowind I gave up on the series.

Since when has TES allowed you to explore the UNIVERSE?

[Clearly Balkan]

CptData wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Or just reduce the number of explorable planets, have 10 of them but GOOD. Less is more when quality is there. N7 missions were so much better compared to the identical bunkers and bases from UNC planets in ME1.

Sounds like a good trade off.

I'd like to see just a couple of planets to explore - but they should come with a great landscape like in "Overlord DLC". I also can imagine to pay for a DLC that just adds additional worlds to explore.

The old ME could use a refit regarding free exploration. Most of the planets you were able to visit were kinda plain. Nearly no (if at all) plants, animals and just some random buildings in the middle of nowhere is a bit outdated (and so is ME in some parts, especially combat). By the way, I liked that Mako and I hope it will return in ME3 (maybe in ONE single mission).

In short: give us 5 - 10 beautiful and/or strange planets with some well designed missions in vanilla ME3 plus a DLC doubling that amount and I'll be fine.

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^

[elitecom]

Il Divo wrote...
But you were never empty on narrative worlds. Remember, if we complete Feros and Noveria first, we still have Therum sitting there, at which point Virmire pops up. There's never a point in Mass Effect 1 where the player is sitting on empty quest leads. There's always something more for Shepard to follow in tracking Saren.  

Comparatively speaking, ME2, almost literally, says "the plot won't move until TIM moves it". Even the recruitment missions are in Shepard's hands, to focus on or ignore (it's his team to build).

How is that any different from ME2? You cannot continue in the first part of the game until you've recruited Mordin, Grunt, Garrus, and Jack. Just as you have to complete at least two of the main quest worlds: Therum, Feros, or Noveria. In both games the narrative doesn't move forward until you've fullfilled a requirement, in ME2 it is recruiting Mordin, Grunt, Garrus, and Jack. While in ME1 you've to complete two quest worlds.

You were never "empty on narrative worlds" in ME2 either, you always had some squadmates to recruit, just as you were never empty on narrative worlds in ME1 either.

Bluko wrote...
But I think I know where you're coming from...

"Bla bla bla ME1 sucked and was boring. Everything ME1 did was wrong and could never possibly work in a video game. Exploration sucks cause I think it means every world has to be a simple landscape like ME1and could not be improved to have anything interesting. Also because I tried to drive a tank up the side of mountain, the Mako therefore sucks and has terrible controls. I need Bioware to make the game dumby proof for me, cause things like inventory and skill trees are immensely complicated. Also planet scanning is such a better alternative as a time sink! You can't even skip resource mining unless you want to have most of your crew wind up dead. Obviously this is an improvement over the otherwise totally optional ME1 side missions that I hate and haved forced myself to play through."

Seriously this is about the gist of what I get from folks on that side of the fence.

I would just like to say that it is a great summary, and I agree.
 
What is it with some players that they feel that they need everything handed to them. So what if there's rough terrain on the planet? Few planets are completely void of elevations, and furthermore if one had actually bothered to investigate the terrain one would find routes cleverly laid out paths for you to drive through. avoiding the hills. 

Also the inventory or skill tree in ME1 was not really a problem at all. Sure after a while you were going to have to delete a number of items but that falls under the respnsibility of resource management. Anyway back to the exploration.

I must also say that what you wrote at the end about ME2's exploration is very interesting, I've never looked at it from such a perspective. I find it ironic that so many complained about exploration in ME1 and how it forced them to do a bunch of boring stuff, then it gets replaced with something which is then even less free than what ME1 had. 

Also since the type of exploration has definitely been decided by now, Bioware I implore you please reveal some details about it. 
   

Modifié par elitecom, 31 janvier 2012 - 03:47 .