226 réponses à ce sujet

[chothug]

Ghost-621 wrote...

CannonLars wrote...

 At this point BioWare knows if they are putting in ME1 style open planets to explore, or some variant of a more open vehicle exploration. So, yes or no? Should we keep holding our breath, or is it more along the lines of ME2 where both vehicle (regardless of whether they can or can't confirm vehicles) and on foot scenarios are technically linear?

It still says it is possible in the features thread, but that is quite a big portion of a game to still have a maybe on.

Please and thanks,

a fan who is still holding his breath

*Holds out an airmask connected to an oxygen tank* You're going to need it.

Exploration is one of the things the ME fans LOVED, and they removed it. We loved exploring the worlds, we just didn't like the "generic warehouse #52" part.

It's not coming back. Not on the scale of ME1 anyway.

You'd be surprised. Many didnt like the fact that you had to drive all around the planet for some minerals, and drive all the way to their destinations. Some environments were beautiful and intriguing but other than that, very tedious and many times semi useless.
Dont get me wrong, I completely agree with you, I loved it.

I too, hope for a more RPG style of exploration.

[Clearly Balkan]

G3rman wrote...

It's galactic war, there isn't time to sightsee.

Completely idiotic argument.

You trolled it like a pro, Move along now.

[Il Divo]

elitecom wrote...

How is that any different from ME2? You cannot continue in the first part of the game until you've recruited Mordin, Grunt, Garrus, and Jack. Just as you have to complete at least two of the main quest worlds: Therum, Feros, or Noveria. In both games the narrative doesn't move forward until you've fullfilled a requirement, in ME2 it is recruiting Mordin, Grunt, Garrus, and Jack. While in ME1 you've to complete two quest worlds.

You were never "empty on narrative worlds" in ME2 either, you always had some squadmates to recruit, just as you were never empty on narrative worlds in ME1 either.

In ME2, whom I choose to recruit is completely up to Shepard. TIM himself points out that it's my team to build, no one else's, and we also have no idea when or where the Collectors will hit.

This is ME2's premise: Wait for the Illusive Man to contact Shepard. And ultimately stop the Collectors, from whatever it is they're doing.

This is ME1's premise: Follow and track Saren before he locates the Conduit , which will allow the Reapers to murder everyone.

ME1 never stops feeding me leads to track Saren (the main goal). ME2 never even gives me a feed to start tracking the Collectors, until I'm given the Reaper IFF mission. And in the case of Horizon and the Collector Ship, both were given priority. In the case of ME2, there are consequences for choosing to ignore the Omega IV relay (your team dies). Side quests there are more justifiable, given the loose premise, and given that I have the ability to upgrade the Normandy in that context (especially given what happened to the original).

That's substantially better as justification than "Race to stop Saren", then followed by "let's explore the Styx Theta Cluster for fun".

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 janvier 2012 - 05:11 .

[CannonO]

Il Divo wrote...

Bluko wrote...

I mean really I don't understand people's frustration over ME1 in this regard. No one made you survey rocks. And there was no achievement for it either. It's just something you did if you wanted a few extra credits. Don't like the astronaut thing about being a Space Marine then don't do it. Not like you had to do any of the ME1 planetary missions for any reason other then completion. In fact I have at times skipped them as well. But I say it's better to have the option of embarking on side missions, then not being able to at all.

If we're not going to do them, ultimately that's content that could be used for any number of activities (longer main plot, more dialogue, etc). Side quests which I don't complete or don't like mean that I am receiving less for my money. Who would argue for such a thing?

But most people do utilize those features, especially on the first playthrough. There is a minority who does not venture to side quests, but the majority are obviously going to try and experience some, with a certain number interested in going to see them all.

What we want doesn't eliminate what you want. What you want is to eliminate what we want for your own idea of how the resources might be used. At this point, it's been decided and they just aren't saying.

[AlanC9]

CannonLars wrote...
But most people do utilize those features, especially on the first playthrough. There is a minority who does not venture to side quests, but the majority are obviously going to try and experience some, with a certain number interested in going to see them all.

Which proves that people aren't willing to pay for content that they don't actually play. If stupid sidequests are in the box I'm still going to play them. That does not mean that I wanted them in the first place.

[AlanC9]

BillsVengenace wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BillsVengenace wrote...
Exploration of the universe was one of the main reasons I bought Mass Effect in the first place. A unique hook for modern RPGs.

I thought the TES games were all about this sort of thing. I wouldn't know; after Morrowind I gave up on the series.

Since when has TES allowed you to explore the UNIVERSE?

You don't get to explore the whole universe in ME1 either -- just the handful of star systems Bio included in the game. Similarly, in a TES game you get to explore whatever chunk of land Bethesda included in the game.

Modifié par AlanC9, 31 janvier 2012 - 06:14 .

[AlanC9]

[quote]Icinix wrote...
That's the problem -- I'm not role-playing an astronaut, I'm role-playing a soldier.

[/quote]

...and I role play as a spaceship commander leading a rag tag bunch of people on exploration through space in an attempt to do whatever I can to help the citizens of the galaxy and find a way to stop the reapers.
[/quote]

This means that you're role-playing someone who says he believes that stopping Saren is the highest priority, but who does not actually behave as if stopping Saren is the highest priority -- it can take a back seat to all sorts of other fun and helpful activities.

And in ME1, your character is acting correctly. It's his speeches that are out of touch with reality.

Modifié par AlanC9, 31 janvier 2012 - 06:24 .

[AlanC9]

Bluko wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

And I guess I'll wrap it up for the night with this:

CannonLars wrote...
I never had trouble with the Mako and found several of the planets to be fantastic. Not sure how exploring uncharted worlds and making discoveries throughout the galaxy of abandoned probes, fallen astronauts, and foreign creatures roaming the fields of a strange world doesn't get your astronaut role-play going and scifi love rising.

That's the problem -- I'm not role-playing an astronaut, I'm role-playing a soldier.

Soldiers magically land at all their destinations and never ride in vehicles or have to traverse open landscape? News to me. Guess I missed the part where Shepard was described as a Paratrooper.

I always thought of him more like a Seal Team Six guy. You know, the guys who landed their helicopters right inside Bin Laden's compound?

Also in regards to your earlier statement about exploration not being advertised. 

That ad shows Shepard passing up a chance to help someone because he's got more urgent matters and then dropping the Mako right into combat. It looks like the game I wanted rather than what I actually got in ME1.

[CannonO]

AlanC9 wrote...

Icinix wrote...
That's the problem -- I'm not role-playing an astronaut, I'm role-playing a soldier.

...and I role play as a spaceship commander leading a rag tag bunch of people on exploration through space in an attempt to do whatever I can to help the citizens of the galaxy and find a way to stop the reapers.

This means that you're role-playing someone who says he believes that stopping Saren is the highest priority, but who does not actually behave as if stopping Saren is the highest priority -- it can take a back seat to all sorts of other fun and helpful activities.

And in ME1, your character is acting correctly. It's his speeches that are out of touch with reality. 

It's a game. It is not possible to force ME games on a timeline that operates anywhere near as well or realistically as the operating you are referring to. The game is set up in a way that you must experience slower time and non-action sequences. If this were played the way you suggest, Shepard would sprint from point A to B without stopping to experience the universe or non-story content. This stupid realistic time argument needs to stop. You can not successfully treat ME games like a real life operation, especially when it comes to time. Attempting to do so is cutting a lot of the content and experience out.

AlanC9 wrote...

Bluko wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

And I guess I'll wrap it up for the night with this:

CannonLars wrote...
I never had trouble with the Mako and found several of the planets to be fantastic. Not sure how exploring uncharted worlds and making discoveries throughout the galaxy of abandoned probes, fallen astronauts, and foreign creatures roaming the fields of a strange world doesn't get your astronaut role-play going and scifi love rising.

That's the problem -- I'm not role-playing an astronaut, I'm role-playing a soldier.

Soldiers magically land at all their destinations and never ride in vehicles or have to traverse open landscape? News to me. Guess I missed the part where Shepard was described as a Paratrooper.

I always thought of him more like a Seal Team Six guy. You know, the guys who landed their helicopters right inside Bin Laden's compound?

Also in regards to your earlier statement about exploration not being advertised. 

That ad shows Shepard passing up a chance to help someone because he's got more urgent matters and then dropping the Mako right into combat. It looks like the game I wanted rather than what I actually got in ME1.

You sound like someone who jumped on board after ME1. Seal Team Six is far from how missions in ME1, and most missions in ME2, start.

He drops the Mako onto very open-looking planet that Geth are present on. That occurs in ME1. There are several instances where Geth are present on planets in various degrees and you drop the Mako in and drive to the location where they are stationed. It seems a bit tricky if you think they were practically dropping him on firing Geth.

Modifié par CannonLars, 31 janvier 2012 - 08:04 .

[Icinix]

AlanC9 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
That's the problem -- I'm not role-playing an astronaut, I'm role-playing a soldier.

Icinix Wrote
...and I role play as a spaceship commander leading a rag tag bunch of people on exploration through space in an attempt to do whatever I can to help the citizens of the galaxy and find a way to stop the reapers.

This means that you're role-playing someone who says he believes that stopping Saren is the highest priority, but who does not actually behave as if stopping Saren is the highest priority -- it can take a back seat to all sorts of other fun and helpful activities.

And in ME1, your character is acting correctly. It's his speeches that are out of touch with reality.

The argument about practicality and sense on a time scale is a pointless one - since the game already has a crazy amount of impractical pieces. Regardless, you could argue that even soldiers get rotated out of duty, get down time, and you could also argue that in the grand scheme of thing those little side adventures barely take up any time at all.

ME1 and ME2 both have crazy amount of additional things to do outside of the singular mission objective goal - I see no reason why ME3 should be different to suit a few fans who want a time scaled scripted action game.

Also from a gamer focus you need to have downtime in a 30 hour or more gameplay experience.  Most novels or stories are not constant bombardment of the main story, there are points where it steps away to give the reader / viewer a break from constant action, constant horror, whatever - a longer game where you make choices and do the shooting needs a breake every now and then too.

I'm also going to post this again...

...the only other difference is I'm not telling you you should not be able to play the game you want to since ME1 because I don't agree with it.

Edit:

AlanC9 wrote...
 It looks like the game I wanted rather than what I actually got in ME1.

So the franchise should change its very nature to suit you?

Modifié par Icinix, 31 janvier 2012 - 08:51 .

[elitecom]

Il Divo wrote...
In ME2, whom I choose to recruit is completely up to Shepard. TIM himself points out that it's my team to build, no one else's, and we also have no idea when or where the Collectors will hit.

This is ME2's premise: Wait for the Illusive Man to contact Shepard. And ultimately stop the Collectors, from whatever it is they're doing.

This is ME1's premise: Follow and track Saren before he locates the Conduit , which will allow the Reapers to murder everyone.

ME1 never stops feeding me leads to track Saren (the main goal). ME2 never even gives me a feed to start tracking the Collectors, until I'm given the Reaper IFF mission. And in the case of Horizon and the Collector Ship, both were given priority. In the case of ME2, there are consequences for choosing to ignore the Omega IV relay (your team dies). Side quests there are more justifiable, given the loose premise, and given that I have the ability to upgrade the Normandy in that context (especially given what happened to the original).

First at the start of the game you have to recruit Mordin, Jack, Garrus, and Grant, there's no way going around them.

So your point is that ME2 never gives you any information on how to stop the Collectors, yet ME1 never stops giving you clues? That is your point from what I've read.

Yet as I wrote in my previous post there's no difference to that in ME1 and ME2. 

You see in ME1 you know you've to go to these main quest worlds to claim leads to Saren's plan. The narrative won't move forward until you've completed at least two worlds. Otherwise you'll be stuck with the same three choices: Feros, Noveria, and Therum. Before the Salarians discover Saren's base on Virmire, the narrative won't move forward and Shepard can perfectly use his time to help people or explore the galaxy and survey worlds for minerals for the Alliance.

In ME2 however you're stuck with the same four characters that needs to be recruited. You haven't been given any leads on how to stop the collectors, but again the narrative won't move forward until you've recruited them. Otherwise you'll be stuck with same four characters that needs to be recruited.

[juplaa]

I was also somewhat disappointed that ME2 had less exploration (and RPG elements in general). I liked the SG-sg1 and SG-U TV series, mainly because the sci-fi exploration: searching for new weapons, visiting/investigating ancient cities/ruins, learning about other species and the politics that go along with it ... all in the name of (technological/military/intellectual) progress and evolution.

This is a personal preference off course, but I think a lot of people would’ve wanted something along those lines. Especially if this could’ve been combined with the (improved) version of ME1’s sandbox-planets. Upgrading the Normandy (in ME2) by exploring and tracking ancient Prothean ruins would’ve been better/more fun in my opinion, rather than just asking a squad mate and probe for resources. Those alien weapons found during the MQ could also have been acquired by sidequest-exploring.
It doesn’t even need the sandbox. I would be happy with how something similar to how exploration with the firewalker was done in overlord: semi open space with various locations you can exit and explore. (Just giving examples of how exploring could enrich gameplay, don’t think I’m saying this HAD to be done this way)

And to people saying mass effect isn’t about exploration .. have you been sleeping during the MQ?
The very first mission was to go to planet and learn about an ancient alien device. ME1’s MQ had a lot of what I described above. ME2’s MQ was about learning about the collectors&reapers, and finding technology to stop them by exploring ancient ships and researching hit colonies. (I consider getting a crew as a basis to the main story of learning how to stop the reapers/collectors)… The only thing that bugs me is that the exploration is mostly done for you, by incorporating it too much into the main quest and dialogue only. It makes the game feel like I’m in a train cart and all I have to do is seek cover and press the attack button (is this perhaps the infamous ‘awesome button’?). And it seems ME3 will feature a roll and stab animation … hooray!

But don’t worry, in ME3 all players will be happy (RPG/action/story-mode) .. here’s a newsflash: It’s impossible to please everyone. I think the RPG is there to support the action elements, as it was in ME2. Same goes for story/dialogue mode (also to support the action elements, if you want it to). If I’m not mistaken they literally said they were trying to appeal to a large crowd. Well, most people like shooter/action based games. And given the trend BW games have taken in since they hooked up with EA, it’s probable that ME3 will be no different. Only difference will be that is has somewhat more RPG elements than the average shooter/action game.

But I’m still willing to give it a chance because I’ve invested quite a few hours into it. It could still be a good game, regardless of the RPG elements. And even though I am not religious, i pray to god their story won't turn into an action-based Steven Seagal movie. That's what BW has always been good at.. writing a good story.
I’ll download the demo, and watch a couple “let’s play's” if need be to see if I’m going to buy this game. (Origin isn’t helping either)

Edit: Also just relalized that politics with other races might play a big role in ME3, I'm eager to see how they will implement it.

Modifié par juplaa, 31 janvier 2012 - 10:04 .

[Il Divo]

elitecom wrote...

First at the start of the game you have to recruit Mordin, Jack, Garrus, and Grant, there's no way going around them.

So your point is that ME2 never gives you any information on how to stop the Collectors, yet ME1 never stops giving you clues? That is your point from what I've read.

Yet as I wrote in my previous post there's no difference to that in ME1 and ME2. 

You see in ME1 you know you've to go to these main quest worlds to claim leads to Saren's plan. The narrative won't move forward until you've completed at least two worlds. Otherwise you'll be stuck with the same three choices: Feros, Noveria, and Therum. Before the Salarians discover Saren's base on Virmire, the narrative won't move forward and Shepard can perfectly use his time to help people or explore the galaxy and survey worlds for minerals for the Alliance.

In ME2 however you're stuck with the same four characters that needs to be recruited. You haven't been given any leads on how to stop the collectors, but again the narrative won't move forward until you've recruited them. Otherwise you'll be stuck with same four characters that needs to be recruited.

You're missing the distinction. It's irrelevant that the narrative doesn't move forward until we recruit the individuals. What matters is that the specifics of building a better force are left up to Shepard. Mine planets for a Thanix Cannon? Shepard's call. Choose to replace Samara with Morinth? Again, Shepard's call. The narrative of Mass Effect 2 doesn't hinge on whether Shepard recruits every individual on that list, hence why side quests are easier to justify. The main plot (in its entirety) involves hunkering down and waiting for TIM to say "Hey Shepard, the Collectors are here. Go get them.". And then, in the case of Horizon/Collector Ship, Shepard goes to get them.

Mass Effect doesn't follow this. Shepard is an active protagonist in Mass Effect; you're not waiting for the Council to tell you "Go here." All the important quest locations are outlined. You alread know where you need to go, what you need to do. Shepard is actively hunting Saren, who is in hot pursuit of the Conduit, not waiting for someone to drop info on his head at random intervals. We know the specifications of what we need to do; it's simply a matter of doing it.

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 janvier 2012 - 10:34 .

[eye basher]

If the exploration is the same as in ME1 then no thank you.

[superg30]

In ME1 exploration was a pain in the a**, mainly because the Mako sucked, but ME2 didn't have nearly enough, exploration is good, just would be better if it were to be between what ME1 was and ME2 is.

[elitecom]

Il Divo wrote...
You're missing the distinction. It's irrelevant that the narrative doesn't move forward until we recruit the individuals. What matters is that the specifics of building a better force are left up to Shepard. Mine planets for a Thanix Cannon? Shepard's call. Choose to replace Samara with Morinth? Again, Shepard's call. The narrative of Mass Effect 2 doesn't hinge on whether Shepard recruits every individual on that list, hence why side quests are easier to justify. The main plot (in its entirety) involves hunkering down and waiting for TIM to say "Hey Shepard, the Collectors are here. Go get them.". And then, in the case of Horizon/Collector Ship, Shepard goes to get them.

Mass Effect doesn't follow this. Shepard is an active protagonist in Mass Effect; you're not waiting for the Council to tell you "Go here." All the important quest locations are outlined. You alread know where you need to go, what you need to do. Shepard is actively hunting Saren, who is in hot pursuit of the Conduit, not waiting for someone to drop info on his head at random intervals. We know the specifications of what we need to do; it's simply a matter of doing it.

So the narrative moving forward by mandatorily recruiting recruiting four individuals is irrelevant but completing two worlds to push the narrative forward is relevant? That's convenient.

Don't you see that you have to recruit four specific individuals for the plot to continue in ME2 just as you have to complete two worlds in ME1 for the plot to continue. You started this, don't veer away from it yet.
 
The story in ME1 is Shepard's mission just as the story in ME2 is, and he is to solve them both the way he sees the most fitting.

Modifié par elitecom, 02 février 2012 - 02:39 .

[CannonO]

elitecom wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
You're missing the distinction. It's irrelevant that the narrative doesn't move forward until we recruit the individuals. What matters is that the specifics of building a better force are left up to Shepard. Mine planets for a Thanix Cannon? Shepard's call. Choose to replace Samara with Morinth? Again, Shepard's call. The narrative of Mass Effect 2 doesn't hinge on whether Shepard recruits every individual on that list, hence why side quests are easier to justify. The main plot (in its entirety) involves hunkering down and waiting for TIM to say "Hey Shepard, the Collectors are here. Go get them.". And then, in the case of Horizon/Collector Ship, Shepard goes to get them.

Mass Effect doesn't follow this. Shepard is an active protagonist in Mass Effect; you're not waiting for the Council to tell you "Go here." All the important quest locations are outlined. You alread know where you need to go, what you need to do. Shepard is actively hunting Saren, who is in hot pursuit of the Conduit, not waiting for someone to drop info on his head at random intervals. We know the specifications of what we need to do; it's simply a matter of doing it.

So the narrative moving forward by mandatorily recruiting recruiting four individuals is irrelevant but completing two worlds to push the narrative forward is relevant? That's convenient.

Don't you see that you have to recruit four specific individuals for the plot to continue in ME2 just as you have to complete two worlds in ME1 for the plot to continue. You started this, don't veer away from it yet.
 
The story in ME1 is Shepard's mission just as the story in ME2 is, and he is to solve them both the way he sees the most fitting.

Yeah, I don't understand his argument so much here. A rational Shepard has active tasks at all times in both games. In ME2, your success relies on collecting a team of specialists, so you must do it to progress. It isn't as different from ME1 as he is trying to make it sound. Both cases treat time as a game treats time, so I don't uderstand why he wants to pretend ME2 makes room for exploration features and ME1 doesn't, therefore ME3 shouldn't for those of us who will explore. Most of us are aware of a game's timing and therefore would gladly like to take time to explore in ME3. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be present besides your spin on how it makes sense to not care for such features that don't push the storyline.

[elitecom]

In this new video interview www.youtube.com/watch a question was asked around 6:52 about the Mako or planet scanning. As expected no definite answer was given, just that we would again as in ME1&ME2 be able to explore planets not part of the critical path. However whether the Mako, sandbox worlds, or  vehicle exploration in general would return wasn't specified. Just that it would be different than in ME1&ME2. You may interpret that as you wish. It may mean a mix of both ME1&ME2 or something completely different.

[CannonO]

elitecom wrote...

In this new video interview www.youtube.com/watch a question was asked around 6:52 about the Mako or planet scanning. As expected no definite answer was given, just that we would again as in ME1&ME2 be able to explore planets not part of the critical path. However whether the Mako, sandbox worlds, or  vehicle exploration in general would return wasn't specified. Just that it would be different than in ME1&ME2. You may interpret that as you wish. It may mean a mix of both ME1&ME2 or something completely different.

With BioWare's imagination under EA these days, I imagine the multiple linear rescue missions on the planets is what they call different.

[elitecom]

CannonLars wrote...

elitecom wrote...

In this new video interview www.youtube.com/watch a question was asked around 6:52 about the Mako or planet scanning. As expected no definite answer was given, just that we would again as in ME1&ME2 be able to explore planets not part of the critical path. However whether the Mako, sandbox worlds, or  vehicle exploration in general would return wasn't specified. Just that it would be different than in ME1&ME2. You may interpret that as you wish. It may mean a mix of both ME1&ME2 or something completely different.

With BioWare's imagination under EA these days, I imagine the multiple linear rescue missions on the planets is what they call different.

I can certainly see these rescue missions replacing most N7 missions and perhaps some UNC missions too. I'll be overly optimistic though and say that there must still be room for some good old fashioned vehicle exploration. After all I believe Bioware has acknowledged that a lot of fans missed the Mako and vehicle exploration, and wants to please both kinds of fans this time. So surely a compromise can be had. Some missions on foot, and some missions in a Mako like vehicle in an open sandbox world.  

These rescue missions are still shrowded in secrecy, and we still haven't seen anything of them, or how they'll play out. Bioware has also so far been reluctant to reveal more.

[DaJe]

superg30 wrote...

In ME1 exploration was a pain in the a**, mainly because the Mako sucked, but ME2 didn't have nearly enough, exploration is good, just would be better if it were to be between what ME1 was and ME2 is.

Here is someone that speaks sense with just a few words.

[RolandX9]

AlanC9 wrote...

You don't get to explore the whole universe in ME1 either -- just the handful of star systems Bio included in the game. Similarly, in a TES game you get to explore whatever chunk of land Bethesda included in the game.

Handful?  Sure, compared to the entire freakin' galaxy, it's a small percentage, but there are a ton of places to go and interesting people/things to meet/kill in ME1.

[CannonO]

Has this truly been answered yet?

[AlphaJarmel]

CannonLars wrote...

Has this truly been answered yet?

No.  We definitely know there is no freeroam but we don't know if there's limited roam ala Overlord but the answer seems to be that they completely scratched vehicles.

[OneDrunkMonk]

By the demo we see the Reapers on a very effective and expedient path of destruction. Nothing in the demo suggests the Alliance has any way to even slow them down. By the demo's timeline of events I don't see humanity lasting more than half a day on Earth. Humanity needs to evac Earth safely. Every second that passes another human life is gone forever. Shep has no time, post invasion, to romance or explore nothing until as many people are rescued off the planet before it all goes to hell. Now, there is nothing saying the invasion happens beginning of the game, still I think Shep has better things to do than go around being Mr./Mrs. Archeologist.