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[1136342t54_]

Sisterofshane wrote...

ScorpSt wrote...

The real problem is that they lack a real cohesive leadership. There's going to be hundreds of Matriarchs who want to lead the Asari people every which way. Shepard will have to help them choose the right leader, despite all the political maneuvering the others try to do.

In the end, it will likely come down to 2-3 candidates that are willing to work with you and you have to get one of them into a position where she can command the asari fleets.

So true.  As far as potential, the asari can become the greatest allies in the upcoming war, especially with their natural biotics and sheer numbers alone.  That can only happen if the Asari manage to focus (stop wandering as maidens and militarize formally) and unite under a common leader (be it Shep or one of the more powerful matriarchs).

To be honest the SA has a problem with using our numbers. That is the reason why we were never a real threat in ME1 since only 1 or 3% of humans actually joined up for the military? It seems that other races have larger percentage that joins up than humanity does. No race are very well militarized in comparison to the Turians.

[SandTrout]

1136342t54 wrote...

To be honest the SA has a problem with using our numbers. That is the reason why we were never a real threat in ME1 since only 1 or 3% of humans actually joined up for the military? It seems that other races have larger percentage that joins up than humanity does. No race are very well militarized in comparison to the Turians.

Your facts are accurate, but your analysis and inferences are flawed.

Humanity is considered a 'sleeping giant' because of the relatively small percentage that join the military. That does not mean that the other powers did not consider us a threat, or that the Alliance military is small in absolute numbers. The human population is upwards of 11 billion on Earth alone, so that's puting the number of military trained personel at 330 million. That's more than the entire current population of the USA.

Also, it is actually easier to recruit civilians into a unified command structure (the Alliance) than to attempt to unify multiple existing command structures (Asari). Existing military command structures have their own customs, ranks, and procedures that will cause a great number of complications in communicating and deciding who is actually the ranking officer. Meanwhile, recruiting from a civilian population provides a blank slate that can be trained into the standardized system without needing to 'untrain' old habits.

[BlueMagitek]

1136342t54 wrote...

You have to think about Game mechanics also. That shouldn't even happend due to the nature of Kinetic barriers anyway. There is a reason why they don't show Kinetic barriers as a wall or use them as cover in future games or novels.

It wouldn't stop all of the damage and probably not even most of it.

Well according to one of the writers Drew Karpyshn (forgot how to spell name correctly) Talked about how indoctrination slowly transforms someone and evovles them into a whole new being. It isn't mind control in that sense at all nor does it uses pain to really turn someone.

What the Thorian did to Shiala was different. It effectively was in a continuos close meld with Shiala. More closer than what it did to the colonists.  Plus you have to remember Shiala was never fully indoctrinated. If she was she would have been huskified.

Saren specifically said that Sovereign was to strong and it was too late for him. Shepard tells him the one thing he could do (kill himself). Saren noticing he isn't strong enough to keep resisting Saren shoots himself in the head.

All you ever do is claim "game mechanics, game mechanics!".  I'm going to go ahead and apply Star Wars canon levels, adjusted, of course.  If something in outside material contradicts something in the game (the main source of canon), it is an infinity and doesn't count.  ~_^

Why not? Heck, the Mako can survive crazy drops all the time, the people inside none the worse off.

Saren sounded in pain when we saw him augmented.  Husks essentially get an incredible jump to indoctrination by getting impaled.  There may be different ways to indoctrination and it might not always be painful, but you can't just toss out what was going on.  If nothing else, the last step (huskification) looks extremely painful.

Saren wasn't huskified until Sovereign took over his corpse; even if it was only a limited amount of indoctrination, there exists a way to undo it (via Thorian indoctrination, apparently).  Yes, Shiala did get closer attention than the others.

But if he was under Sovereign's will, wouldn't he be unable to shoot himself? 

[1136342t54_]

SandTrout wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

To be honest the SA has a problem with using our numbers. That is the reason why we were never a real threat in ME1 since only 1 or 3% of humans actually joined up for the military? It seems that other races have larger percentage that joins up than humanity does. No race are very well militarized in comparison to the Turians.

Your facts are accurate, but your analysis and inferences are flawed.

Humanity is considered a 'sleeping giant' because of the relatively small percentage that join the military. That does not mean that the other powers did not consider us a threat, or that the Alliance military is small in absolute numbers. The human population is upwards of 11 billion on Earth alone, so that's puting the number of military trained personel at 330 million. That's more than the entire current population of the USA.

Also, it is actually easier to recruit civilians into a unified command structure (the Alliance) than to attempt to unify multiple existing command structures (Asari). Existing military command structures have their own customs, ranks, and procedures that will cause a great number of complications in communicating and deciding who is actually the ranking officer. Meanwhile, recruiting from a civilian population provides a blank slate that can be trained into the standardized system without needing to 'untrain' old habits.

I was mostly working in comparison to the Turians in our capabillity to win a interstellar war with them. Also the number being at 330 million (which is likely abit more counting the other colonies) isn't too great when you are comparing it to a civilization that likely has billions more people than the Human race and a larger recruitment percentage. Hell in comparison to lets say the UNSC from Halo the total amount of military personnel the UNSC has on Reach is about equal to the total amount of the Alliance.

Not saying the SA isn't a threat to anyone but in comparison to the Turians they are good enough to make the Turians hurt for a Total War win.

[Gabey5]

they are an old race who live a thousand years, the younger races are pretty much hothead who war all the time, asari do not need to

[1136342t54_]

BlueMagitek wrote...

All you ever do is claim "game mechanics, game mechanics!".  I'm going to go ahead and apply Star Wars canon levels, adjusted, of course.  If something in outside material contradicts something in the game (the main source of canon), it is an infinity and doesn't count.  ~_^

Applying star wars canon (which is far more inconsistent than ME) won't work since the Codex and cinematic cutscenes are the higher canons. What we see in game are game mechanics and if they were true then Shepard could melee a Thresher Maw to death.

Why not? Heck, the Mako can survive crazy drops all the time, the people inside none the worse off.

Booster rockets at the bottom of the craft not due to general tough ness of the vehicle.

Saren sounded in pain when we saw him augmented.  Husks essentially get an incredible jump to indoctrination by getting impaled.  There may be different ways to indoctrination and it might not always be painful, but you can't just toss out what was going on.  If nothing else, the last step (huskification) looks extremely painful.

Saren was in pain because he was resisting and kept trying to resist why wouldn't he be in pain?

Saren wasn't huskified until Sovereign took over his corpse; even if it was only a limited amount of indoctrination, there exists a way to undo it (via Thorian indoctrination, apparently).  Yes, Shiala did get closer attention than the others.

So? Sovereign's indoctrination on Shiala wasn't anywhere near the level Saren since she didn't even get implants. It was likely easier for the Thorian to control her. Also Saren was at the level of Paul Grayson in indoctrination. The differences are that Saren was far more stronger in will power in Paul. Even with all that will power he only had enough left to pull the trigger on himself. 

But if he was under Sovereign's will, wouldn't he be unable to shoot himself? 

I never said Sovereign had 100% control. 

[Anacronian Stryx]

Stripper revolt..gonna topple the Asari government unless Shep tips them enough.

[BlueMagitek]

1136342t54 wrote...

Applying star wars canon (which is far more inconsistent than ME) won't work since the Codex and cinematic cutscenes are the higher canons. What we see in game are game mechanics and if they were true then Shepard could melee a Thresher Maw to death.

Booster rockets at the bottom of the craft not due to general tough ness of the vehicle.

Saren was in pain because he was resisting and kept trying to resist why wouldn't he be in pain?

So? Sovereign's indoctrination on Shiala wasn't anywhere near the level Saren since she didn't even get implants. It was likely easier for the Thorian to control her. Also Saren was at the level of Paul Grayson in indoctrination. The differences are that Saren was far more stronger in will power in Paul. Even with all that will power he only had enough left to pull the trigger on himself. 

I never said Sovereign had 100% control.

The Codex also lies, which you should be well aware of. D=
The cinematics may be, then. ~_^
...and you find that odd? o_o


Yup, that's one crash there =0

You don't think the cybernetic augmentation would be, you know, painful? >_>

...You don't see there being any importance to a reversal of indoctrination existing?  Really? o_O
Oh no?  It might not bring someone back from being a husk (which tends to require you to be deadish, or it seemed that way, at least), but it'll bring back someone who has been indoctrinated to an extent.  That's a good thing. =D

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I think when Sovereign knew about the Thorian, and knew that an organic would have to interface with it to get the cypher, that Shiala had been somewhat protected from the degree of indoctrination that the rest of Benezia's group received.

[1136342t54_]

BlueMagitek wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...

Applying star wars canon (which is far more inconsistent than ME) won't work since the Codex and cinematic cutscenes are the higher canons. What we see in game are game mechanics and if they were true then Shepard could melee a Thresher Maw to death.

Booster rockets at the bottom of the craft not due to general tough ness of the vehicle.

Saren was in pain because he was resisting and kept trying to resist why wouldn't he be in pain?

So? Sovereign's indoctrination on Shiala wasn't anywhere near the level Saren since she didn't even get implants. It was likely easier for the Thorian to control her. Also Saren was at the level of Paul Grayson in indoctrination. The differences are that Saren was far more stronger in will power in Paul. Even with all that will power he only had enough left to pull the trigger on himself. 

I never said Sovereign had 100% control.

The Codex also lies, which you should be well aware of. D=
The cinematics may be, then. ~_^
...and you find that odd? o_o


Yup, that's one crash there =0

You don't think the cybernetic augmentation would be, you know, painful? >_>

...You don't see there being any importance to a reversal of indoctrination existing?  Really? o_O
Oh no?  It might not bring someone back from being a husk (which tends to require you to be deadish, or it seemed that way, at least), but it'll bring back someone who has been indoctrinated to an extent.  That's a good thing. =D

Prove the Codex lies. No game play doesn't work.

Bioware pretty much said the people who did the ME1 cinematic were inaccurate but other than that most go too the Codex as the highest level of canon. Star Wars canon rules don't work for ME since these are different people doing it.

You are assuming cybernetics is the only thing that is upgraded. Indoctrination does a lot more than cybernetic augmentation.

That wasn't even close to the main argument but since you are switching it up then okay then. A 50,000 year old plant sapient being has the capability to reverse indoctrinate someone who was barely indoctrinated and only really went with Saren due to Benezia. The likelihood of anyone else replicating that is very very low.

[SandTrout]

Prove the Codex lies. No game play doesn't work.

Codex says...

How Saren acquired this incredible warship is unknown. The prevailing opinion is that Sovereign is a geth construct, while others believe it is a Prothean relic.

Modifié par SandTrout, 15 octobre 2011 - 02:12 .

[1136342t54_]

SandTrout wrote...

Prove the Codex lies. No game play doesn't work.

Codex says...

How Saren acquired this incredible warship is unknown. The prevailing opinion is that Sovereign is a geth construct, while others believe it is a Prothean relic.

Opinion dude. It was never stated as a fact in the codex. Plus for all intense and purposes Sovereign is a warship using in game information before we even figure out that the Reapers even exist.

It is more ignorance of the situatin other than a outright lie.  

[SandTrout]

The point that the Codex is an unreliable narrator stands.

[DiebytheSword]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Why not? Heck, the Mako can survive crazy drops all the time, the people inside none the worse off.

IIRC, per the codex, the Mako has an internal mass effect drive that helps lower the mass of the vehicle while jumping, falling, or returning to its ship.

[1136342t54_]

SandTrout wrote...

The point that the Codex is an unreliable narrator stands.

When it comes to groups that are effectively myths or unknowns like Reapers, Collectors or hell the Geth in general (in ME2 they kind of mentions the Geth differences) I'd agree but when it comes to specifically established facts about modern Mass Effect tech the Citadel races use it is the best source of information and can only be disputed if the in game lore or hell a Novel disputes it. A in game shield blocking a particle beam doesn't make sense since the lore and even when the Normandy was attacked shows that Kinetic barriers cannot block DEWs (Directed Energy Weapons).

[BlueMagitek]

1136342t54 wrote...

Prove the Codex lies. No game play doesn't work.

Bioware pretty much said the people who did the ME1 cinematic were inaccurate but other than that most go too the Codex as the highest level of canon. Star Wars canon rules don't work for ME since these are different people doing it.

You are assuming cybernetics is the only thing that is upgraded. Indoctrination does a lot more than cybernetic augmentation.

That wasn't even close to the main argument but since you are switching it up then okay then. A 50,000 year old plant sapient being has the capability to reverse indoctrinate someone who was barely indoctrinated and only really went with Saren due to Benezia. The likelihood of anyone else replicating that is very very low.

Well, we could always go with the Asari being constantly referred to as an all female race, when word of god says that they are not female. >_________________________________________>

No no, we got this. 
WoG
Cinema
Game
Codex
Outside Material
Movie

Squee?

Well I don't know about that; a husk is  pretty cybernetic, yo.  Yes, yes, there's some mind sharing thing with the memories and the general descent into madness, but that's for another time. Sure, Saren & Shiala weren't there yet, well, Saren wasn't all cybernetic until endgame, but still.

You gotta go with the flow or else you'd just end up with some painful toes. D=
Well no, we know that it's older than that; Shiala mentions that it was there prior to the Protheans, spends most of its time sleeping, wakes up now and then, goes back to sleep, repeat.  It also gives some sort of mind sharing like indoctrination, except instead of memories it seems to be physical feelings.  But more importantly, it allows Shepard to be Kirk!

We can't discount indoctrination being reversed!  Science would not be proud, amigos. D=

[Sisterofshane]

1136342t54 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

The point that the Codex is an unreliable narrator stands.

When it comes to groups that are effectively myths or unknowns like Reapers, Collectors or hell the Geth in general (in ME2 they kind of mentions the Geth differences) I'd agree but when it comes to specifically established facts about modern Mass Effect tech the Citadel races use it is the best source of information and can only be disputed if the in game lore or hell a Novel disputes it. A in game shield blocking a particle beam doesn't make sense since the lore and even when the Normandy was attacked shows that Kinetic barriers cannot block DEWs (Directed Energy Weapons).

I believe that the point Sand is trying to make is that all of the codex entries, in one form or another, are written with a sort of "bias".  When reading a codex entry, we have to remember that what is written is generally accepted to be true within the universe of Mass Effect.  Sandtrout had a great example above with Sovereign.  Many people within the universe of Mass Effect do not believe, or cannot possibly concieve of the concept of "Reapers", so they ascribe a different origin to Sovereign based upon knowledge that they do have -- of the geth and the Protheans -- to make an educated guess.

Anything proven scientifically within  the Mass Effect universe will therefore be written in the codex as "concrete",  (ie, how biotics work, etc.) but there is still much speculation that we as a player are asked to approach critically, and then combine with our own game knowledge we've gained through Shepard's perspective, and we are free to form different opinons on it.

[Han Shot First]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Thought that was more of an inversion of the 'blind drunks and the elephant' fable, since Asari don't change, you're missing a point.

Even if all species see the aspects of Asari that resemble them,[b] to Asari Humans still look like Asari.[/b\\

Yes, no one makes a point of it... but then, no one makes a point that Asari look like Human women. But assuming you aren't blind to the female gender and body type, Asari are dead-ringers for humans bar the head tentacles. And, consequencly, Humans look like Asari as well.

That is a good point, and not just to the Asari. Considering that all the other species of the galaxy except for the Raloi have of been in contact with the Asari for far longer than they've been in contact with humanity, they should all think humans look like Asari, rather than the other way around.

Turians during the First Contact War should have looked at humans and thought, "Those things look like Asari...with hair. UGH! Kill it with fire!"

Modifié par Han Shot First, 15 octobre 2011 - 06:54 .