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[Fauxnormal]

Myusha wrote...

[You edited before my reply...]Yes. Everything is dangerous. But look at the Tevinter Imperium. Look at Fenris, and see the sorry state they're still in.

Look at what Anders did to Elthina, and other Priests. Look at what Uldred did, Velanna, Marethari and Merrill's actions that led to their own Clan's deaths [Potentially], Orsino, Quentin, Gascard.

Orsino, the Bloody First Enchanter, the one who was entrusted to lead his fellow mages, worked alongside a Serial Killer, insanely trying to resurrect his wife through collecting ****ing bodyparts, otherwise unachievable. Look at the Harvesters mages can BECOME, and Amgarrak. A mage created THOSE Harvesters in Amgarrak ACCIDENTLY. Did you see how MANY there were at the end? And the carnage ONE did?

Regular beings can make wars. But only Mages can create horrors like those, and these are some of THE WORST of the worst.

And Read Bethany's letter.

Look at Anders, and the mages, and what the Templars have done to them. Listen the the horror stories, the atrocities, the hate and abuse and misuse of power.

There is no excuse for it. I'm sorry. Period, end of story, none.

Magic didn't make that man kill Hawke's mother. Insanity did. The only thing special in that case was the necromancy after the fact. A serial killer is a serial killer; what he does with the bodies afterwards doesn't matter. He still killed women, and he didn't need magic to do that.

Varric's brother didn't have a drop of magic. Look what he did to all those people in his house, because of that lyrium statue.

Teryn Loghain didn't have a drop of magic. He wipped out a huge chunk of the Gray Wardens just by walking away. 

Look at Alrik. He's one of your beloved Templars. How many Alriks do you think there are? because from what I heard, a /lot/. I mean, but they're just the extremists, right? Just because a few people get made Tranquil for no reason, or raped, or beaten,  I mean, that's totally worth it in the end, right? 

Mages have power. They can cause a lot of destruction.

Nothing worse then what a war can do.

[Myusha]

Like I said. Everything is dangerous.

But when the Mages rule themselves, you get to listen to one of those directly influenced by their actions. Fenris.

Blood rituals there, blood rituals here. Oooh, let's have our slaves fight for Lyrium markings. Oh, let's have fun tonight Fenris. [Gaider said their relationship was....more intimate.]

The Magisters waltz about into Kirkwall trying to reclaim him. Don't believe Fenris's claims? What about Orana's poor poor papa? Now these are Mages with Freedom. Look at every mage you fought in DA2. About 1/3rd of them were Blood Mages, or led by Blood Mages. The compacts with demons, the whole reason the Chantry locks them up.

A normal child at the age of ten may be able to kill a villager or two with a sword if he tried hard to do it.

A mage child at ten with no grasp of his power, and naive to demons, may kill a hundred.

Is one-hundred people worth one child?

Modifié par Myusha, 15 octobre 2011 - 12:16 .

[Fauxnormal]

Myusha wrote...

Like I said. Everything is dangerous.

But when the Mages rule themselves, you get to listen to one of those directly influenced by their actions. Fenris.

Blood rituals there, blood rituals here. Oooh, let's have our slaves fight for Lyrium markings. Oh, let's have fun tonight Fenris. [Gaider said their relationship was....more intimate.]

The Magisters waltz about into Kirkwall trying to reclaim him. Don't believe Fenris's claims? What about Orana's poor poor papa? Now these are Mages with Freedom. Look at every mage you fought in DA2. About 1/3rd of them were Blood Mages, or led by Blood Mages. The compacts with demons, the whole reason the Chantry locks them up.

A normal child at the age of ten may be able to kill a villager or two with a sword if he tried hard to do it.

A mage child at ten with no grasp of his power, and naive to demons, make kill a hundred.

Is one-hundred people worth one child?

(Oddly, I keep having the urdge to say Anders vrs. Fenris, round two, ding ding ding!)

The bottom line is you can not punish people for something they haven't done. To blame the whole of anything on the actions of a few is the mark of an idiot and a coward.  You can't hate all Qunari because of what happened in Kirkwall. You can't hate all Templars because of Alrik's lot. And you can't lock up all mages because SOME are dangerous.

Once again, neither I or anyone else have EVER said mages didn't need proper training, or that SOME didn't need supervision.

I notice you keep avoiding a very simple point I have made more then once now. It's not just that mages are locked up before they've ever done anything wrong; they are ripped away from homes and familes, beaten, abused, mistreated, taken advantage of- yes, okay, maybe this isn't everywhere, but it's certianly the case in Kirkwall, and likely more places.

You can not jusitify that. In fact, if you're quoting Fenris, then you're as big a hypocrite as he is. It's  not okay for Fenris and others like him to be treated that way, but it is okay for mages to be? Because they were born a certian way?

Wow.

Murder here, slaughter there. Abuse, rape, theft, serial killers, serial rapists, gangs, drugs, black markets, illegal actitives. Ooooh, let's start a war over religion/land/politics/resources.  Let's have fun tonight, magey. (But then, according to you, rape isn't okay when it's Fenris, but the rape of a mage is fine. After all, it's in the name of saftey for all, yes?)

Templars waltz into a mage child's house, take him from his parents, forbid them from ever seeing him again. Templars tell the child he/she is evil, wrong, horrible for being born the way she/he was, make them hate themselves, keep them leashed and collared and treat them like criminals when they haven't done a single thing wrong.

Don't belive Anders? Take a walk around the mage circle. You'll encounter more then one ****ed-in-the-head mage, and they're not crazy from being abominations.

Hadriana was a murderous, psycotic nutcase. She wasn't that way BECAUSE OF MAGIC. She'd have been that way with or without it; she wanted power, pure and simple, end of story. She was a bad person.

Mages are people, just like anyone else. There are bad ones and good ones, evil ones and kind ones.

There is even a chance the Warden was a mage, for ****'s sake.

And you are also avoiding the point that ANYONE can make a deal with a demon. Or be possesed by a demon. Not. Just. Mages.

A normal child at the age of ten can be taught to become a trained killer.

Should he/she be locked up, as well?

And yes, to answer you. I'd risk the lives of a hundered people on the off-chance that possibly, maybe, some day in the further, that child might somehow perchance happen to do something wrong. Maybe. Possibly.

Modifié par Fauxnormal, 15 octobre 2011 - 12:04 .

[Myusha]

(Indeed. Egads. There'll be gay porn of us by sun rise here. Noooo!)

I didn't mention training this time. Now look at Wynne. Not every single mage is beaten, ripped from their family, abused, taken advantage of. Some enjoy their time in the Circle.

Normal people can make those deals, but how often have we encounter that? It's a very very rare circumstance I think. Only one I can think of off the top of my head is Lady Harriman.

Templars are also subject to hatred as well for their roles even if they're innocent. I doubt there hasn't been one man trying to do his job, that's been killed merely because he was there; by a non-mage.

And magic offers power itself and temptation. Without magic, Hadriana would've been a normal human. People without magic in Tevinter are frowned upon, and her upraising may have been different. No is inherently evil, but due to the nature of DA's mages, they risk being naive children ruled without any idea of concept of what they might do, and if that mindset isn't changed, then we get killers who can do things no other man can do.

I concur with Carver's opinion overall. It's a bad thing they do, but it's necessity until they hopefully come up with something better.

Although this argument has been a bit fun. Yay for controversy!

[Fauxnormal]

Myusha wrote...

(Indeed. Egads. There'll be gay porn of us by sun rise here. Noooo!)

I didn't mention training this time. Now look at Wynne. Not every single mage is beaten, ripped from their family, abused, taken advantage of. Some enjoy their time in the Circle.

Normal people can make those deals, but how often have we encounter that? It's a very very rare circumstance I think. Only one I can think of off the top of my head is Lady Harriman.

Templars are also subject to hatred as well for their roles even if they're innocent. I doubt there hasn't been one man trying to do his job, that's been killed merely because he was there; by a non-mage.

And magic offers power itself and temptation. Without magic, Hadriana would've been a normal human. People without magic in Tevinter are frowned upon, and her upraising may have been different. No is inherently evil, but due to the nature of DA's mages, they risk being naive children ruled without any idea of concept of what they might do, and if that mindset isn't changed, then we get killers who can do things no other man can do.

I concur with Carver's opinion overall. It's a bad thing they do, but it's necessity until they hopefully come up with something better.

Although this argument has been a bit fun. Yay for controversy!

(Can not unthink- Can not unthink! XD)

I did say not all mages- it doesn't happen everywhere, but it does happen, often. Wynn was happy in the circle, good for her- given the option, I'm sure others would be, too. (Finn seemed quite happy in the circle, as well, if I recall.) But it's not an option- it's forced. That is where the problem begins; you force people who have done no wrong into circumstances that are a punishment, that they may loath. Every man and woman has the right to be free; mages should be trained, be watched, but not the way it's being done. The idea is perhaps right; the execution is entirely wrong.

I don't hate all Templars, nor do I disagree with you on that point. Several templars we see are only trying to do what's right, what's good, and what's best for everyone.

I doubt very seriously that Hadriana would ever have been anything but an evil ****. Without magic, she would have found another way to get power, and she would have hurt and killed just as many people to do it. Even Fenris says 'she was a torment'.

Magic didn't make her a cow that got her rocks off hurting people she knew couldn't fight back.  That was who she was.  I don't care how she was brought up; it's made clear that an intrinsic part of her personality was just to be a nasty, cruel person who liked hurting other people. If you're a bad person, you're a bad person; nothing will change or affect that.

For example, Alistair started off being trained as a templar. He COULD have become an Alrik; look at his background. He doesn't have a horrific, tragic one, no, but the poor guy's got it pretty rough, and from what I gathered, hadn't really had a lot of positive attention or affection at that point. And what he DID get, he misconstrued, or, in youthful bitterness, rejected.

Instead, though, he's Alistair. Sweetheart, goofball, adorkable lovebug. (Granted, that can change, but still.) Even after what happens at Ostigar, he remains who he is.

Alistair is a good person, with or without magic, no matter how he was brought up.

Hadriana is a bad one.

And yes, hate to burst your bubble, but people- even in real life- can be and often are just plain evil.

We don't see it very often, no, but it's told to us over and over again that mages are not the only prey for demons, willingly or unwillingly.

Again, to end, I will say; the idea behind the Circle is, to a degree, correct. The execution is beyond poor.

This arguement has indeed been fun, and I didn't realize just how pro-mage I was until I started it. 0.o Wow...look at what a game can produce in people. Well done, Bioware. Bravo. *slow applause*  *extis stage left.*