337 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Oh for ****'s sake, this tired misleading and inaccurate meme about the "Call of Duty" thing.

One developer made one comment saying that they want to point out how RPGs are similar in terms of specific features to the most popular game franchise in the world, and suddenly it's evidence of a tactic to get MW fans. I'd spend every second of my internet using energy fighting this stupidity here if I thought I would actually make a dent in all the dumb.

It's not a newsflash that a lot of games from wildly different genres with wildly different fanbases share features, especially when they are as ubiquitous as stat and gear progression.

Seriously, it's the worst and it won't die.

No, I'm not defending BioWare marketing.  I'm attacking using the goddamn Call of Duty quote as some sort of smoking gun.

There's also the matter of Mark Derrah (?) saying that Farmville fans are playing an RPG even if they don't realize it.

The point is, the entire notion is so incredibly misguided.   One wonders why they even brought it up.  (all games have at least one feature in common:  They're meant to be played. woo hoo.)  To keep with the taco Bell theme, Even taco bell has some "features" in common with the finest French Restaurant in Paris.    But it's silly to even mention the two in the same sentence.   

Edit:  Would you like a drink with that?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:49 .

[Everwarden]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
No, I'm not defending BioWare marketing.  I'm attacking using the goddamn Call of Duty quote as some sort of smoking gun.

Even without that specific quote, the point still stands. Bioware is attempting to bring in the mass market audience by making the game more about exploding enemies and less about story, writing, and immersion. Call of Duty is just a nice symbol representing the illusive 'mass audience' that Bioware thinks it can wrangle without any effort. 

[standardpack]

Everwarden wrote...

Why does this sound familiar?...

Modifié par standardpack, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:09 .

[Saintthanksgiving]

Allow me to tweak your metaphor.... just a bit.

Imagine your favorite mexican restaurant:

• The food is delicious
• the service is always friendly and personal
• the ambiance is both inviting and authentic

Imagine yourself dreaming of Dinner at this restaurant for months... months of anticipation for another fantastic expierience...

Then you get there.... and Fernando sold the place to Taco Bell. 

• Your food comes in a wrapper designed by marketing execs to cause salivation and happy thoughts
• The rustic homey furniture has been replaced with generic, mass produced pressboard tables and floor bolted benches.
• The authentic Decor has been stripped from the walls and replaced with pictures of mohawked Chihuahuas carrying 8 foot swords.
• The once traditional and delicious menu has been replaced with aggresively named Burrito's of the Week like "The Champion"

Disgusted... you feel yourself about to throw up... but when you run to the restroom you are told that it is for "paying customers only."  

Overcome with grief, you look for the owner... but he has traded his blue jeans and 10 gallon hat for a shark skin suit and pinky rings encrusted with the crystalized tears of his loyal fans....

and then it hits you.... this is just the beggining.

Pretty soon you'll be buying your Taco's at Walmart.

[upsettingshorts]

Everwarden wrote...

Even without that specific quote, the point still stands.

Then don't use it, because it's stupid and misleading and blown out of all proportion beyond its intended message.

Everwarden wrote...

Bioware is attempting to bring in the mass market audience by making the game more about exploding enemies and less about story, writing, and immersion.

What you meant to write here was "I didn't like the story of DA2 as much as DAO" - which I could just nod at and move on.  Immersion is 100% subjective, some players cannot immerse themselves in a game with a silent protagonist when the other characters are voiced and vice versa.  There is no such thing as a single direction in favor of, or away from immersion with the single possible exception of graphical realism.  And yes, the exploding enemies were annoying, but they were also - to a degree - in BioWare's Baldur's Gate.  The first one.  In of itself, this demonstrates no trend.

Everwarden wrote...

Call of Duty is just a nice symbol representing the illusive 'mass audience' that Bioware thinks it can wrangle without any effort.

EA/BioWare thinks it can expand its customer base with:
1) Commercials on national television
2) Cross promotion with other franchises in the EA catalog
3) Integration with social media

They have actually done those three things, something they weren't doing back when Jade Empire - just to name a pre-EA game - was being released.  But violence, combat, even weird marketing that seems to miss the point entirely are all BioWare staples since forever.  

There is only one explanation for DA2's mixed reception needed:  It endeavored to make more changes to the DAO model than its development schedule and budget made accomodations for, and even those changes which were implemented successfully were controversial.  

Yrkoon wrote...

There's also the matter of Mark Derrah (?) saying that Farmville fans are playing an RPG even if they don't realize it.

The point is, the entire notion is so incredibly misguided.   One wonders why they even brought it up.  (all games have at least one feature in common:  They're meant to be played. woo hoo.)  To keep with the taco Bell theme, Even taco bell has some "features" in common with the finest French Restaurant in Paris.    But it's silly to even mention the two in the same sentence.

Not if they are trying to point out that RPG gamers- many of them on this very board - seem to think that their precious
genre have nothing in common with these other "low brow games not worthy of their time."  Yet they do.  Not if they are trying to point out to gamers of these other genres that RPGs are not spreadsheets simulated on a computer, and actually have quite a few things in common with games they currently enjoy.

And don't try to overgeneralize the point they made, they drew specific parralels to features like progression. 

I remember a highly praised article posted here that tried to make this same point and I broke it down then, too.  I don't have the patience or willpower to throw down every single time it comes up, because it comes up hourly.   It still kills me the example they used and the staggering "it exists only in its own genre" claim.  It's tribalism about RPGs and nothing more.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:16 .

[Everwarden]

standardpack wrote...

Why does this sound familiar?...

...damn, that was hilarious. 

I have to admit it is a bizarre coincidence that he used a restaurant metaphor too, but that's about the only similarity. The points made are completely different. He is making a direct assertion that the game's quality is poor (he called the game a rushed turd), that's not the point I'm making at all. I'm trying to demonstrate that Bioware is attempting to make the game/franchise into something it isn't for mass market appeal.

Neither of us are the first to come up with the brilliant 'compare media to restaurant/food product' trope. That sort of thing is common in reviews. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:29 .

[Sith Grey Warden]

Yrkoon wrote...

  Hey!

I've compiled a list of  Taco Bell's flaws:

1)Recycled ingredients. They use the same fajita wraps over and over.
2) Waves.  As soon as I finish eating a taco, 10 more tacos fall from the ceiling, right on my head.  That gets annoying after a while.
3) You can no longer engage in dialogue   with your friends when you're in the restaurant.
4) Employee animations are wacky and over the top.   I mean, the service is really fast, and that's good, I suppose.  But  does the guy at the register have to jump 20 feet into the air and do a backflip before he takes my order?
5) The restaurant itself is small and lifeless.  There's the main room, then a small bathroom, then the food prep area.  And that's all.  Certainly not enough exploration for a 50 hour visit.
6) The ending sucks.  When you're done eating, you toss your wrappers and napkins in the trash then you leave.   And that's it.  No one sees you off, no one  says Goodbye.  Even the exit door is  unimaginitive plain glass.

Don't forget about the teleporting nachos. Just when you finally reach the nacho, it jumps right out of your grasp. This is despite the sign in the building assuring you that teleporting is impossible. They claim it's just using stealth and moving really quickly, but i dont' think so.

[Sith Grey Warden]

I kinda feel this TacoBurger would have been all right if they had had more time to design it. They might have worked out those bugs I keep finding in it, or the recycled ingredients. Or make things more consistent between the right half and the left half.

[Everwarden]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...
I kinda feel this TacoBurger would have been all right if they had had more time to design it.

I agree. Mass Effect 2 was a delicious tacoburger. 

[HK-90210]

Everwarden wrote...

Reno_Tarshil wrote...
I am dissapointed. HOWEVER, I read through the thread and I must be out of the loop of things because since when did Taco Bell start serving Taco Burgers?

That's why you have to use your imagination hat, friend. Taco Bell would never do something as silly as courting the McDonald's fanbase by insulting their current one. 

And I just don't see BW isulting their current fan base. I've been a fan of their games since KOTOR, and I loved DA2,  and I still consider it an RPG. It was a bit undercooked as far as tacos go, but still a taco, and still delicious.

[Firky]

Stop, don't bite into that taco. I think I saw a tiny Felicia Day inside it.

(Am I doin' it right?)

[Everwarden]

CastonFolarus wrote...
 It was a bit undercooked as far as tacos go, but still a taco, and still delicious.

Well, if you change 'undercooked' to 'fresh out of the tacoburger freezer', we're on the same page. 

Stop, don't bite into that taco. I think I saw a tiny Felicia Day inside it.

(Am I doin' it right?)

Modifié par Everwarden, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:43 .

[upsettingshorts]

Everwarden wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...
 It was a bit undercooked as far as tacos go, but still a taco, and still delicious.

Well, if you change 'undercooked' to 'fresh out of the tacoburger freezer', we're on the same page. 

Depends what you think might have needed improving and if more time would have actually helped. 

The writing for example was locked down early and likely not to change all that dramatically given additional time.

I mean, if you're (using this generally here) against the voiced protagonist, then no amount of additional development time would have improved the game for you in this respect. 

But if you were really thrown out of your immersion by the repeated caves, then yeah, put that thing back in the microwave and it'll probly turn out better.

Would BioWare have done without waves?  Or better implemented them?  I'm really really not sure.  At least they made a self-referential joke about how bad they were in the DLC.  "It's always an ambush."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:46 .

[HK-90210]

Everwarden wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...
 It was a bit undercooked as far as tacos go, but still a taco, and still delicious.

Well, if you change 'undercooked' to 'fresh out of the tacoburger freezer', we're on the same page. 

And from what I can tell, us two being on the same page is an immpossibility. My tastes buds differ too much from yours. But can we both agree that tacos are really good? And that burgers are good too, as long as it's what you want to eat?

[Everwarden]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Depends what you think might have needed improving and if more time would have actually helped. 

Oh, I agree. A bad design choice with a gallon of polish is still a bad design choice. 

...yes, "bad design choice" is here defined as something that I personally don't like.

The writing for example was locked down early and likely not to change all that dramatically given additional time.

I don't know that I agree with that. It's pretty clear that the entire third act was rushed, and really what killed the game for me. If they had taken another six months to a year they could have had the second act fork based upon decisions, and have a third act for the mage revolutionary, a third act for the facist Templar supporting douchebag (I hate Templars, by the way), and a third act for lazy Hawke who doesn't care and wants to be left alone. 

Or, if that's too ambitious, even just a different ending sequence for the three would have been nice. 

I mean, if you're (using this generally here) against the voiced protagonist, then no amount of additional development time would have improved the game for you in this respect. 

I do prefer a silent protagonist, -but- that doesn't mean a voiced protagonist ruins the game for me. It's all about doing the voice right, and making certain the you still have control over what your character says.

A perfect example of a voiced protagonist done correctly is Adam Jensen in Dues Ex. 

 At least they made a self-referential joke about how bad they were in the DLC.  "It's always an ambush."

The problem is that I see this a bit like the Taco Bell manager knocking on my door months after refusing to give me a refund or exchange, and offering to sell me a 'real' mini taco. I'm not paying any more money for Dragon Age 2 content. The base game just doesn't justify more investment to me. 

[upsettingshorts]

Regarding the story, I was really only referring to the basics that people dislike such as "the protagonist is fixed as Hawke" and "the mainplot is about the mage crisis." 

The writers themselves have said the pacing and some other details of the story could have been improved given time, and based on feedback have suggested frontloading companion dialogue closer to - but not exactly - like DAO might have improved the players' connection with them.

Everwarden wrote...

A perfect example of a voiced protagonist done correctly is Adam Jensen in Dues Ex.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to strongly disagree there.  But that's another thread topic.

Everwarden wrote...

The problem is that I see this a bit like the Taco Bell manager knocking on my door months after refusing to give me a refund or exchange, and offering to sell me a 'real' mini taco. I'm not paying any more money for Dragon Age 2 content. The base game just doesn't justify more investment to me.

I haven't played the DLC myself either, but I am aware of the bulk of their contents

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:59 .

[Everwarden]

CastonFolarus wrote...
 But can we both agree that tacos are really good? And that burgers are good too, as long as it's what you want to eat?

Indeed. I would just contend that taco makers should make tacos, and burger makers should make burgers. 

Oh, and marketing drones should make nothing, and no longer be allowed to dictate game direction based upon focus group metrics.

[upsettingshorts]

Everwarden wrote...

Oh, and marketing drones should make nothing, and no longer be allowed to dictate game direction based upon focus group metrics.

Marketing doesn't really work that way. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:58 .

[Everwarden]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Marketing doesn't really work that way. 

Perhaps not (I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject), but from most of the interviews prior to Dragon Age 2's release I got a very strong vibe that the developers were all spouting things they heard from the marketing department, and changing their design philosophy in an attempt to bring in the mass market. 

[upsettingshorts]

Pretty sure it's the other way around. They've also all got to be on the same page - mostly, marketing has to get on the developers' page - because it's their job to.

That doesn't prevent me from wanting to ****punch or at least shout a "come on, bro" at David Silverman

Oh and I forgot:  BioWare has always tried to appeal to the mass market.  Always.  They were never a niche developer.  Okay, maybe back with Shattered Steel.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 octobre 2011 - 04:08 .

[Everwarden]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Oh and I forgot:  BioWare has always tried to appeal to the mass market.  Always.  They were never a niche developer.  

Well, that goes back to my brilliant Taco Bell analogy! People love tacos! They don't need to change who they are to appeal to a large audience, they just have to make a quality product. Dragon Age: Origins wasn't exactly a flop, after all.

Quality and polish bring in customers, not marketing gimmicks and flashy hack-n-slash gameplay. That's why, despite having a huge ad budget, tie-ins, and a ton of goodwill built up from the previous game, Dragon Age 2 still only sold half as well.

Modifié par Everwarden, 14 octobre 2011 - 04:17 .

[upsettingshorts]

Everwarden wrote...

Well, that goes back to my brilliant Taco Bell analogy! People love tacos! They don't need to change who they are to appeal to a large audience, they just have to make a quality product. Dragon Age: Origins wasn't exactly a flop, after all.

Quality and polish bring in customers, not marketing gimmicks and flashy hack-n-slash gameplay.

The animations were hack and slash, the gameplay itself is not wildly different from DAO.  The combat encounters (all ambushes in DA2) and the lack of a movable third person camera however are wildly different from DAO, and clearly missing.

The combat itself is actually a little more complex than DAO, with both cross class combos and knockback mechanics.  

Everwarden wrote...

That's why, despite having a huge ad budget, tie-ins, and a ton of goodwill built up from the previous game, Dragon Age 2 still only sold half as well.

There are a lot of reasons why it didn't do as well.  Some of the reasons are changes they executed just fine, but were still poorly received because people didn't want, like, or expect them. 

It's easy to focus on the issues we personally don't like as being to blame for everything, but its more complicated than that.