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[tonnactus]

Well Bioware had to gain new fans because other companies exist now that do far better rpg games. Sadly for Bioware, the ones who did Deus Ex Human Revolution for example also delivered far better combat than a boring whack a mole that Mass Effect 2 is...

Modifié par tonnactus, 15 octobre 2011 - 11:43 .

[shepskisaac]

didymos1120 wrote...

9.  If you choose the right options, can get Legion to tell you what Reapers really are (which information is quite inferrable from other clues dropped over the course of the game, BTW): the enslaved, uploaded minds of an entire species.

Never got this one, only watched on YouTube. How do you get it exactly?

[didymos1120]

You mean the combat that most people agree is one of the weakest parts of that game, as demonstrated to tremendous effect in the almost-universally-agreed-to-be-the-weakest boss fights (other than maybe the Dial-A-Stock-Footage-Heavy-Ending-With-Cheap-Voiceover thing)?

Modifié par didymos1120, 15 octobre 2011 - 11:51 .

[didymos1120]

IsaacShep wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

9.  If you choose the right options, can get Legion to tell you what Reapers really are (which information is quite inferrable from other clues dropped over the course of the game, BTW): the enslaved, uploaded minds of an entire species.

Never got this one, only watched on YouTube. How do you get it exactly?

I explained it in the video: advance Legion's conversations before the SM to the one shown, and then choose the option indicated in the video.  Then talk to Legion right after the SM, and pick the new dialogue option on the lower left that appears. Which is of course why most missed it: you have to kill crew to see it.

[onelifecrisis]

didymos1120 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

What happens in the second game?

Um...well...he builds a new team and, well, he makes them like him a whole lot. And I guess he rescues a few colonists and ends up in the exact same spot as before: The Reapers are coming, nobody believes him, and he still needs to stop them.

OK, let's look at some stuff that happens in ME2:

1. Learns only a small fraction of the geth are allied with the Reapers.  Can completely neutralize that threat, thereby doing a solid for the other 95% of the geth.
2. Saves over half the population of a human colony in the Terminus that was many, many times larger than the entirety of Zhu's Hope.
3. Discovers that the Protheans were converted into Collectors by the Reapers.  Learns just how far beyond indoctrination the Reapers can take things.
4. Learns the essentials of where baby Reapers come from.  Capture or destroys the "uterus" in which the latest member of the Reaper family was developing.
5. Can stop a rogue former STG agent from handing a genophage cure to a tremendously aggressive krogan clan.
6. Prevents a pan-species plague from taking root on Omega.
7. Learns there's something weird going on with stars and dark energy that is most likely not the doing of the geth.
8. "Liberates" the Normandy SR-2 from Cerberus control.
9.  If you choose the right options, can get Legion to tell you what Reapers really are (which information is quite inferrable from other clues dropped over the course of the game, BTW): the enslaved, uploaded minds of an entire species.
10. A good deal of information about the inner workings of Cerberus.

That's just off the top of my head.  And of course, this ignores the DLC.

1. And what about the people that didn't activate Legion, or didn't find the obscure corner of his dialogue tree that imparts that tidbit of information?
2. And this advances the story how? Shepard was on Zhu's Hope to get intel. Saving the colonists there was a bonus, not the objective.
3. Fair point.
4. Fair point.
5. And this advances the story how?
6. And this advances the story how?
7. That's not a development, it's a foreshadow at best.
8. And this advances the story how?
9. See my response to #1.
10. I thought we were supposed to be stopping the Reapers, not Cerberus.

Edited for typos.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 15 octobre 2011 - 11:55 .

[shepskisaac]

didymos1120 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

9.  If you choose the right options, can get Legion to tell you what Reapers really are (which information is quite inferrable from other clues dropped over the course of the game, BTW): the enslaved, uploaded minds of an entire species.

Never got this one, only watched on YouTube. How do you get it exactly?

I explained it in the video: advance Legion's conversations before the SM to the one shown, and then choose the option indicated in the video.  Then talk to Legion right after the SM, and pick the new dialogue option on the lower left that appears. Which is of course why most missed it: you have to kill crew to see it.

The most important information in the game obtainable only if you kill your crew? BioWare...........................................................

Though it's probably a consequence of moving Legion's first appearance till IFF mission but still, thye should have make this dialogue possible to get even if you didn't finish Legion's basic convo lines before the SM

[tonnactus]

didymos1120 wrote...

You mean the combat that most people agree is one of the weakest parts of that game,

Well,if the combat in Deus Ex 3 is considered weak, the one of Mass Effect 2 is a piece of crap in comparison.
From cover system,blindfire,rolling from one cover to another to enemy behavier who actually use their numbers and try to flank and encircle jensen.(and use grenades)
Or fall him in the back using doors and stairs.
Also dont see how the bosses in Mass Effect 2 are somehow better.In Deus Ex i could kill them at least fast with Typhoon grenades.

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 octobre 2011 - 12:00 .

[onelifecrisis]

tonnactus wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

You mean the combat that most people agree is one of the weakest parts of that game,

Well,if the combat in Deus Ex 3 is considered weak, the one of Mass Effect 2 is a piece of crap in comparison.

I disagree with both of you actually. I play a lot of shooters (both FP and TP) and consider ME2's combat to be pleasantly robust, fluid, and straightforward. DXHR is a cumbersome and inelegant mess in comparison (but still fun).

[Eckswhyzee]

onelifecrisis wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

You mean the combat that most people agree is one of the weakest parts of that game,

Well,if the combat in Deus Ex 3 is considered weak, the one of Mass Effect 2 is a piece of crap in comparison.

I disagree with both of you actually. I play a lot of shooters (both FP and TP) and consider ME2's combat to be pleasantly robust, fluid, and straightforward. DXHR is a cumbersome and inelegant mess in comparison (but still fun).

I can't believe I'm going to agree with you on something, but YES. The multitude of powers (especially class exclusives) in Mass Effect 2, plus the defenses system means the combat is actually very interesting for me. DXHR straight-up combat is a bit more generic TPS but I'd argue that DXHR is a bit more about multiple non-combat approaches as well (e.g. stealth, setting traps, manipulating the environment) which makes for very different and still very fun gameplay.

[Thompson family]

tonnactus wrote...

Well Bioware had to gain new fans because other companies exist now that do far better rpg games. Sadly for Bioware, the ones who did Deus Ex Human Revolution for example also delivered far better combat than a boring whack a mole that Mass Effect 2 is...

The emphasis was added.

==============

First 10 weeks sales total for Deus Ex HR, all platforms (Xbox 360, PS3, PC)  = 1.37 million

First 10 weeks sales total for Mass Effect 2, XBOX 360 ONLY = 1.5 million

First 10 weeks sales total for ME 2, PS3 only =0.36 million

Total sales to date, ME2, Xbox 360 only = 2.53 million

Total sales to date, ME2 PS3 only = 0.61 million

Total sales to date, ME2, all platforms = 3.32 million

ME1 total sales to date, 2.79 million

Source: vgchartz.com

Keep in mind that, as a sequel, ME2 probably didn't cost as much to develop as a completely new game and neither will ME3. Now thow in the money from DLC sales and compare that to ME1 rather modest "Bring Douwn the Sky" and "Pinnacle Station." (I don't have figures for those.)

Look, my goal here is not to rub salt in what is clearly a very hurtful wound to a lot of players. My point is that, folks, the numbers simply are not on the side of staying loyal to the niche market for old-fashioned RPGs.

I haven't looked at Mass Effect sales figures in about a year.  I'm blown away by the sale of 1 million units AFTER the first 10 weeks. I never thought the game would have had "legs" like that -- and am forced into the conclusion that the "Cerberus Network" requirement seems to help, at least.. Why buy a used game when you have to buy into the Cerberus Network when you can get a new one at a much-reduced price to get great DLC like Overloard and LOTSB?

Whether you like the way things are going or not, things are going that way.

[OMTING52601]

Lol is a quarter of a million preorders a whole half a year before a game's release something to scoff at now? Man Bioware is really in the dumps these days. Sometimes I feel like their only fan left. *Sigh.

There was zero bias in my statement. I wasn't saying the numbers were good or bad, just that the particular guess of two mil preorder wasn't supportable through what evidence I could find. 

And to be specific, five months out, I posit that a quarter of a million isn't that good in EA/Bioware's opinion. Hence the release of MP information, whether it was actually divulged earlier than Bioware wanted, the announcement was meant to come out at least four months before release. We'll see if the MP gamble works in Bioware's favor as future preorder numbers become available.

[tonnactus]

Thompson family wrote...


Look, my goal here is not to rub salt in what is clearly a very hurtful wound to a lot of players. My point is that, folks, the numbers simply are not on the side of staying loyal to the niche market for old-fashioned RPGs.

Deus Ex is a sequel,but one that come after a lot of years without the hype of Mass Effect 2 .Lets see how many "legs "it will have. By the way, the "old fashioned" Dragon Age sold more copies then Mass Effect 2...
I not even  start with the games from Bethesda like Fallout and Elder Scrolls.

[Lukertin]

Fallout 3 was also a sequel that came out a lot of years after the original games and bears little gameplay relation to them (as opposed to Deus Ex). FO3 seemed to have sold around 3-4 million copies though, and when you look at New Vegas which was basically the 'spiritual' successor sequel to the original Fallout 3, when you account for the bugs that plagued NV, the majority of people still liked it less than FO3.

[shepskisaac]

Lukertin wrote...

Fallout 3 was also a sequel that came out a lot of years after the original games and bears little gameplay relation to them (as opposed to Deus Ex). FO3 seemed to have sold around 3-4 million copies though, and when you look at New Vegas which was basically the 'spiritual' successor sequel to the original Fallout 3, when you account for the bugs that plagued NV, the majority of people still liked it less than FO3.

But the majority of hardcore RPG & old Fallout games fans value NV much higher than FO3

[Thompson family]

tonnactus wrote...

Deus Ex is a sequel,but one that come after a lot of years without the hype of Mass Effect 2 .

When all else fails, blame hype.

Lets see how many "legs "it will have.

Will do. PM me in six months and remind me.

By the way, the "old fashioned" Dragon Age sold more copies then Mass Effect 2.

You're slightly right: 2.94m total sales for DA:O compared to 2.79m for ME2.  That's a 5.4 percent difference. That could very easily be explained by the difference in the genre fanbase for Swords and Sorcery vs. Space Opera.

I not even  start with the games from Bethesda like Fallout and Elder Scrolls.

No argument there: Fallout sold something like 7.1 million world wide, all platforms and Oblivion sold 4.19m. Good for them. So go play those. I won't -- and I won'tt go to Fallout or Oblivion forums and complain either.

Modifié par Thompson family, 16 octobre 2011 - 01:17 .

[Lukertin]

IsaacShep wrote...

Lukertin wrote...

Fallout 3 was also a sequel that came out a lot of years after the original games and bears little gameplay relation to them (as opposed to Deus Ex). FO3 seemed to have sold around 3-4 million copies though, and when you look at New Vegas which was basically the 'spiritual' successor sequel to the original Fallout 3, when you account for the bugs that plagued NV, the majority of people still liked it less than FO3.

But the majority of hardcore RPG & old Fallout games fans value NV much higher than FO3

Yes, and yet FO3 & NV function as more evidence against your point and only serve to further Thompson Family's argument. The hardcore rpg genre is slowly dying. It isn't anywhere near dead, no, but it is beginning to die.

[shepskisaac]

Lukertin wrote...

Yes, and yet FO3 & NV function as more evidence against your point and only serve to further Thompson Family's argument. The hardcore rpg genre is slowly dying. It isn't anywhere near dead, no, but it is beginning to die.

It's not. It's just not able to stand up against enormous dev costs these days. Hardcore RPGs are selling just as good as they used to, but selling 1/2 million copies is not enough anymore to recoup 30+ million budgets modern AAA titles require (unless you're lucky to be based in a country which much cheaper labor force)

[OMTING52601]

Thompson family wrote...

Look, my goal here is not to rub salt in what is clearly a very hurtful wound to a lot of players. My point is that, folks, the numbers simply are not on the side of staying loyal to the niche market for old-fashioned RPGs.

Perhaps not in the TPS/RPG world, though I suppose we'll really have to wait and see on that. But look at the numbers for DA2 juxtaposed against Origins. I'd say that refutes your position. Look at Witcher 2 sales to date versus DA2. Players are buying the real, old-fashioned RPG's, not stuff that's marketed as such then fails to deliver. Simple observation here, no emotion attached.

ETA: RPG's aren't dying *sigh* Desire for a larger, more profitable buying base is pushing large companies, like EA, to attempt to amalgamate all games into a single, highly profitable, variation of one product simply with different faces. Reasonably, I think Thompson should have said that EA RPG's are dying off, or could be, instead of making a blanket statement, since hard sales data shows that well made, old fashioned, RPG still make significant profit for those companies dedicated to doing them and doing them right.

Modifié par OMTING52601, 16 octobre 2011 - 01:49 .

[The Interloper]

onelifecrisis wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

[OK, let's look at some stuff that happens in ME2:

1. Learns only a small fraction of the geth are allied with the Reapers.  Can completely neutralize that threat, thereby doing a solid for the other 95% of the geth.
2. Saves over half the population of a human colony in the Terminus that was many, many times larger than the entirety of Zhu's Hope.
3. Discovers that the Protheans were converted into Collectors by the Reapers.  Learns just how far beyond indoctrination the Reapers can take things.
4. Learns the essentials of where baby Reapers come from.  Capture or destroys the "uterus" in which the latest member of the Reaper family was developing.
5. Can stop a rogue former STG agent from handing a genophage cure to a tremendously aggressive krogan clan.
6. Prevents a pan-species plague from taking root on Omega.
7. Learns there's something weird going on with stars and dark energy that is most likely not the doing of the geth.
8. "Liberates" the Normandy SR-2 from Cerberus control.
9.  If you choose the right options, can get Legion to tell you what Reapers really are (which information is quite inferrable from other clues dropped over the course of the game, BTW): the enslaved, uploaded minds of an entire species.
10. A good deal of information about the inner workings of Cerberus.

That's just off the top of my head.  And of course, this ignores the DLC.

1. And what about the people that didn't activate Legion, or didn't find the obscure corner of his dialogue tree that imparts that tidbit of information?
2. And this advances the story how? Shepard was on Zhu's Hope to get intel. Saving the colonists there was a bonus, not the objective.
3. Fair point.
4. Fair point.
5. And this advances the story how?
6. And this advances the story how?
7. That's not a development, it's a foreshadow at best.
8. And this advances the story how?
9. See my response to #1.
10. I thought we were supposed to be stopping the Reapers, not Cerberus.

Edited for typos.

1. Their fault. They didn't pause to probe legion for info, they don't get it. Consequence of their choice. Also, as I recall the exact 95% statistic is hard to get, but the general impression that the heretics are only a fraction of the geth population is most certainately not.
2.It foils the reaper's plans. It doesn't help in actually destroying them, yes, but that's allright. As you admitted, ME1 (among other things)  had lots of moments like that. Destroying Saren's base, for instance. It still has plot significance. Same here.
3. Yes, it is.
4. Indeed. If nothing else was true, this plot revelation alone gives ME2's main story meaning. 
5. Set up for ME3, in which the genophage will play a major role in uniting the salarians and krogans, which in turn will be important for defeating the reapers.
6. Within ME2 it elaborates on what the collectors are up to. Overall nothing, no.
7. What's wrong with forshadowing? Again, setting the stage for future events. There's nothing insignificant with that, is there?
8. Gets shepard back on his own and sets stage for open cerberus conflict in ME3.
9. And again, #1. While it is admittedly a bit strange they made it so hard to find, it just confirms what was obvious to most people. By which I mean me . But seriously, I don't think that many people were so confused by the HR. And even if the stuff wasn't in the game but we knew about it-ie hidden files-we would at least know there's a solid explanation. And after all, the only serious problem with leaving important stuff out of the story, ie creating mystery ( and I think the robot monsters are the obvious topic to skip info on for the sake of atmosphere. It just isn't the same if their inner workings are explained 10 minutes in, or even halfway. Things like this can usually get away with never being fully explained, actually) is if there is no explanation or consistant logic working under the hood, even if the reader/player/etc will never see it. The mere presence of this explanation, even if it is hard to find, confirms this is the case. That's the way I see it, anyway. 
10. It appears in ME3 they are one and the same. But we don't know what cerberus's game is yet, so the point is moot.

Plus the DLC, greatly expanding the cast of inner circle characters (ie party members) and possibly player specific stuff as well. Even though not everyone romanced Tali or whatever, it's still significant within the individual shepard's story. Let's not forget that this is an rpg, and some of the significant plot and character events are up to the player, who can choose which one happens or whether they happen at all.

[didymos1120]

IsaacShep wrote...
The most important information in the game obtainable only if you kill your crew? BioWare...........................................................

Yep. Since the post-SM conversations trigger automatically, if that flag isn't set beforehand, you can never access the dialogue.  At best, I think you could finesse it so that you'd be able to set the necessary flag and only lose one crewmember by leaving a couple other loyalty missions incomplete to postpone the IFF install.  I'm pretty sure there's no way to avoid any crew deaths, short of someone adding the ability to set the flag manually with the save editor.  Or  using the save edit trick that allows  you to recruit Legion early without having to worry about the Collector attack triggering.

[shepskisaac]

didymos1120 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...
The most important information in the game obtainable only if you kill your crew? BioWare...........................................................

Yep. Since the post-SM conversations trigger automatically, if that flag isn't set beforehand, you can never access the dialogue.  At best, I think you could finesse it so that you'd be able to set the necessary flag and only lose one crewmember by leaving a couple other loyalty missions incomplete to postpone the IFF install.  I'm pretty sure there's no way to avoid any crew deaths, short of someone adding the ability to set the flag manually with the save editor.  Or  using the save edit trick that allows  you to recruit Legion early without having to worry about the Collector attack triggering.

Once they moved Legion to IFF mission, they should've just modify the 'crew abducting' trigger. Legion is like the character with some of the most crucial info in the game. The heretic Geth, Sovereign, Reapers' nature. Ugh...

[Thompson family]

OMTING52601 wrote...

But look at the numbers for DA2 juxtaposed against Origins ...

Why?  DA2 was blatently  a mistake that went too far and the founders of Bioware have said so. What more do you want?

[JeffZero]

I really can't stress enough how utterly unreliable vgchartz is. My GameFAQs buds would be laughing the blue off of everyone's asses for this. I'm just saying, it's really... not... a good source in general.

[Thompson family]

JeffZero wrote...

I really can't stress enough how utterly unreliable vgchartz is. My GameFAQs buds would be laughing the blue off of everyone's asses for this. I'm just saying, it's really... not... a good source in general.

I'd love some better figures if you can point me in the right direction, JZ.

[JeffZero]

Thompson family wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I really can't stress enough how utterly unreliable vgchartz is. My GameFAQs buds would be laughing the blue off of everyone's asses for this. I'm just saying, it's really... not... a good source in general.

I'd love some better figures if you can point me in the right direction, JZ.

No, unfortunately offhand I can't. I know that just makes it sound like I'm whining over nothing but vgchartz has such an exceptionally abysmal track record. I see people try to use that site to prove points all the time and there are a thousand reasons it's problematic, especially nowadays.

I'll try to look into hunting down something more solid a little later tonight when my friend's gone though.

Modifié par JeffZero, 16 octobre 2011 - 02:04 .