597 réponses à ce sujet

[Thompson family]

OMTING52601 wrote...

Holy smack, dude. Are you being purposefully obtuse or am I really missing something?

That was uncalled for, OMTING52601.

DA 2 being a "blunder", after the fact, is moot. [Hindsight being 20/20 and all.

You're contending that nobody every learns from a mistake.

You're also arguing that the "mistake" was toning down RPG elements when DA2 stripped them off wholesale, at least as far as I can tell from the forum response -- and I don't even read DA2 forums. They keep spilling over here.

That doesn't change the fact that is was developed as, released as, and continues to be marketed as an RPG. I haven't seen Bioware pull the product from the shelf or relabel it, unless I missed something.

So, since they injured the horse they should just go ahead and kill it.?

As such, it's numbers are just as pertinent as any in a discussion ...

No, it is not, because they went too far and admitted that they went too far.

... where you, yourself, suggest that moving RPG's away from traditional and toward more linear, casual gamer style is inevitable because it's profitable. That is your position, right?

No. My position is that moving RPG's away from an inventory system that's worse than a simple Excel spreadsheet is a move in the right direction. Stripping away all RPG elements or the one that really matters -- characterization rather than deciding what junk to carry -- is not.

If your summary of my argument was accurate, how could I possibly explain the admission by Casey Hudson and others that they are restoring things like weapons mods and more involved evolution of powers? They are clearly going to do that in ME3 -- because they have acknowledged (again) -- that they went too far.

But are they going all the way back to "traditional" RPG mechanics or abstain from important new markets like MP? No. Those days are gone.



I'm all for richness and complexity. I'm not all for having to shovel junk into the Omni-Gel vat for no good reason or getting mad because somebody can play ME2 once and have a Shep just as levelled up and powerful and well-equipped as mine. That dross should have been burned away years ago.

Modifié par Thompson family, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:33 .

[Thompson family]

Thanks for the NPD numbers, Gatt9. Those are probably the best out there. The figure of about 2m for Fallout makes me wonder if VGC didn't add in sales of expansions like New Vegas and so forth as if those were separate sales.

[The Interloper]

onelifecrisis wrote...

2. So where were they going to get all the humans? Were they going to take on Earth with their 1 cruiser? And what were they going to do with it? "Honor humanity" you say? Sorry but... lolwut? Does this ring a bell?

"You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."

Punching gaping holes in a plot does not count as development in my book.

Didn't we discuss this already? I forget. The smudboy thread was looooong. But at the risk of sending us back into hell, let me jog your memory.

Considering the reapers were arriving shortly, it was pretty dang obvious after Arrivial came out (I can sorta understand you being mystified before then, but lo! an explanation appeared) that the collectors were planning to finish the HR with the aid of the reaper fleet. Remember, they didn't know soverign was going to die and under normal circumstances they would have been traveling around gathering bodies at the exact same time if soveriegn had succeeded. They would run around collecting bodies allowing the reapers to give their undivided attention to blowing things up (remember, collector constructs have no real security systems or even life support, just storage and assimilation equipment. They're obviously kinda specialized and have a low budget). I don't know why they couldn't have pushed construction back two years, but they did kill shepard before starting, which is the logical precaution.

As for the HR itself....again, the HR at the moment seems to have nothing directly to do with how the reapers are conducting current extermination of the galaxy (like the citadel relay explains how they were going to do it). I already admitted this twice. Also for the second time, it's the why, and the who. Reapers reproduce by melting down and rebuilding entire races in their image. And when I say reproduce, I mean the way elves and dragons (as they appear in most fantasy settings) reproduce. They're usually immortal or close to it, but they can still die, and therefore need new members. And sovy just died. Again there's still stuff we don't know, but the revelation about the reaper's nature narrows things down, makes sense when compared to what has come before, and is probably setting up for whatever reveal they have for ME3.
My "honor humanity" assertion is hardly a stretch. Though it isn't stated outloud (for some reason) it's very, very, very heavily implied that the reapers chose humanity because Shep and Joker, who killed soveriegn, were humans. And Harbinger says that reaperization was humanities "salvation." It's implied he thought he was doing humanity a favor (this also explains why they wanted shepard alive if possible-join the reaper). We don't know whether they chose humanity as a compliment, as a pragmatic decision to co-opt the best source of resistance, or just the cream of the crop but all are real and plausible possibilities.

There aren't any real holes, not here at least. It's one thing to refuse to forgive plot holes. It's another to refuse to read between the lines and contanstly take things at face value. The implications are there and they are heavy and unless ME3 directly contradicts them (which probably will be a real plot hole) I dont see a problem here.

I admit it is pretty annoying though that nobody ever talks about Harby or the HR. They talk about the collector base...I do hope in ME3 all squadmates will give their input on every major plot detail. Otherwise it seems like they're always missing staff meetings.

Also, what's with all the dropped numbers? I can't tell if that means you're ceeding the point or not.

[OMTING52601]

Thompson family wrote...

OMTING52601 wrote...

Holy smack, dude. Are you being purposefully obtuse or am I really missing something?

Ad Hominem logical fallacy, AKA a cheap shot.

Not sure application of the term ad hominem is appropos. I didn't suggest you ARE obtuse, I asked if you were intentionally piece-mealing my comments. The 'my bad' at the end was a cheap shot. I admit it.

You're seriously contending that nobody every learns from a mistake here. You're also arguing that the "mistake" was toning down RPG elements when DA2 stripped them off wholesale, at least as far as I can tell from the forum response -- and I don't even read DA2 forums. They keep spilling over here.

No. I'm seriously contending that you can't just throw out the numbers on DA 2 because they don't fit your opinion and still have a logical argument. Period. There's no personal dig included in my comments. Seriously. No emotive content at all.

So, since they injured the horse they should just go ahead and kill it..

What the heck are you talking about? Thompson, forget about DA 2. Why are you harping on this? If I'd only used DA 2 as a comparative example, well I'd be poorly informed. I DID NOT. I also cited Witcher 2, Elder Scrolls, heck even the new Zelda game! Move on to one of those instead if it makes you feel better. I'm trying to...

In anticipation of the standeard RPG granny comeback  -- "dumbing down" -- (etc)

 

Thompson, you have zero idea what kind of gamer I am. If this was your actual point, which was not clear to me, then I agree the nearly endless bits of data offered up in some old school RPG's is NOT fun and moving away from eighty five million teeny tiny, have no effect on the plot of an RPG stroy, details is a good thing. I'd like some inventory control, but piles of crap I have to sort through isn't fun. Not for me, anyway. Having a solidly written, well developed, detailed grown up story line where I feel like I am actually playing a character and making meaningful choices IS exactly what I want. I put up with the fracking shooter elements of Effect BECAUSE the story was that good, IMO. Apparently, it's important to most RPG players, which is why I argued that moving things away from real RPG roots, not the silly miscellany of inventory control, is NOT economically profitable.

You know, you win. I was looking for solid debate, not this stuff.

[onelifecrisis]

The Interloper wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

2. So where were they going to get all the humans? Were they going to take on Earth with their 1 cruiser? And what were they going to do with it? "Honor humanity" you say? Sorry but... lolwut? Does this ring a bell?

"You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."

Punching gaping holes in a plot does not count as development in my book.

Didn't we discuss this already? I forget. The smudboy thread was looooong. But at the risk of sending us back into hell, let me jog your memory.

Considering the reapers were arriving shortly, it was pretty dang obvious after Arrivial came out (I can sorta understand you being mystified before then, but lo! an explanation appeared) that the collectors were planning to finish the HR with the aid of the reaper fleet. Remember, they didn't know soverign was going to die and under normal circumstances they would have been traveling around gathering bodies at the exact same time if soveriegn had succeeded. They would run around collecting bodies allowing the reapers to give their undivided attention to blowing things up (remember, collector constructs have no real security systems or even life support, just storage and assimilation equipment. They're obviously kinda specialized and have a low budget). I don't know why they couldn't have pushed construction back two years, but they did kill shepard before starting, which is the logical precaution.

The bold bit is the exact problem I have with this theory of yours. The collectors harvest resources. Why send them out to harvest early, at a time when they are at risk, when you could send them out later when there is no resistance? Your entire hypothesis is pure guesswork with no evidence to back it up, and you openly admit the logical flaw in that guesswork. What am I to do here? If I accept your guesses, I'm no better off. I've just traded one logical inconsistency for another.

The Interloper wrote...

There aren't any real holes, not here at least.

Umm, except the ones I stated, which you've so far only offered to swap for new ones. And as for you "innocent until proven guilty" approach, just how much information does a story have to leave out before you consider it bad writing?

Here's a story for you:

Some ships called reapers attacked the galaxy.
A guy called Shepard stopped them.
The end.

Yeah, I left out some details, but it's a great story, right?

The Interloper wrote...

Also, what's with all the dropped numbers? I can't tell if that means you're ceeding the point or not.

I do that a lot, for lots of reasons. Okay, rather than speaking in general terms I'll quote them with specifics...

[Thompson family]

Obviously, I edited my post while you were replying, OMTING52601. Sorry for the moving target, but I myself came to the conclusion that much of what you objected too shouldn't have been posted in the first place.

... I agree the nearly endless bits of data offered up in some old school RPG's is NOT fun and moving away from eighty five million teeny tiny, have no effect on the plot of an RPG stroy, details is a good thing. I'd like some inventory control, but piles of crap I have to sort through isn't fun. Not for me, anyway.

Then we agree on more than we disagree.

Having a solidly written, well developed, detailed grown up story line where I feel like I am actually playing a character and making meaningful choices IS exactly what I want.

All right. Did DA2 move away from those elements, which both of us agree are important? I don't know and admit I don't know. And is there any evidence that ME3 is going down the same drain?

Obviously, I think the plot of ME2 was a very significant improvement over ME1, which is a contentious point but I'm willing to give my reasons why.

Modifié par Thompson family, 16 octobre 2011 - 05:10 .

[OMTING52601]

The Interloper wrote...
My "honor humanity" assertion is hardly a stretch. Though it isn't stated outloud (for some reason) it's very, very, very heavily implied that the reapers chose humanity because Shep and Joker, who killed soveriegn, were humans. And Harbinger says that reaperization was humanities "salvation." It's implied he thought he was doing humanity a favor (this also explains why they wanted shepard alive if possible-join the reaper). We don't know whether they chose humanity as a compliment, as a pragmatic decision to co-opt the best source of resistance, or just the cream of the crop but all are real and plausible possibilities.

Ha! I haven't seen anyone else reference this remark before and I thought the same thing. The Reapers are bad news, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that my 'assumption' that the Reapers were the remains of an ancient, advanced race of organics proved right. In fact, I wonder if the idea behind them was that the original organics found themselves on the brink of extinction and so created the ships to house their minds as a way to salvage/immortalize themselves. Once Legion stated that Sovvy had multiple 'programs', I all but whooped and hollered.  I don't think the Reapers chose to foucs on humanity for any beneficial reasons or necessarily to 'honor' them, but I understand your logic.

As far as gaining or losing fans goes... yes, ME 2 lacks some classic RPG elements, but I think it maintains most of them. It has a solid story, Shepard has a 'real' effect on the story and the world, choices made make an impact, and the depth of the world is spectacular. It's not as wide open as ME 1, but it does give continuing players more meaninful insight into the different races and customs of its universe. Sure, the whole plot basically goes backward from where the first one ends only to come back to that at its own conclusion, but while I played it I didn't *feel* like I was place-holding the story. FWIW, my two cents.

[staindgrey]

The Interloper wrote...
My "honor humanity" assertion is hardly a stretch. Though it isn't stated outloud (for some reason) it's very, very, very heavily implied that the reapers chose humanity because Shep and Joker, who killed soveriegn, were humans. And Harbinger says that reaperization was humanities "salvation." It's implied he thought he was doing humanity a favor (this also explains why they wanted shepard alive if possible-join the reaper). We don't know whether they chose humanity as a compliment, as a pragmatic decision to co-opt the best source of resistance, or just the cream of the crop but all are real and plausible possibilities.

It actually isn't implied; it's outright said. It's just found in quotes during the suicide mission that one can barely hear and likely isn't paying attention to: 

Harbinger lists the weaknesses of the other races, while calling humans the only "viable" option. This, in addition to his constant use of "salvation", etc., and we can safely assume that is the exact reason why there is a human Reaper, and not another race.

Also, though I'm too lazy to actually look it up, isn't it said (by EDI, I think...) that the Collectors are merely the fallback of using Protheans since they couldn't make a viable Reaper? It's also implied, thus far, that the Reapers use organics for evolution, as they cannot themselves evolve. That is the only possible reason given for why they continue this extinction cycle.

As for why the Collectors started harvesting early, we can't say. Too many hypotheticals, not enough evidence. I'd say that it's possible the Reapers want to know that a Reaper of ____ blank race will in fact work before choosing to harvest the entire species; perhaps an early harvest by their "collectors" of the time is actually part of the cycle, but they always go unnoticed due to the same political bull**** that every evolved society endures. Perhaps the goal was to create and test that human Reaper before invading Earth, but when SHepard messed things up, the Reapers, now officially challenged for the first time, said, "Okay, **** it, we're going in now."

This is still only a theory based on evidence, not concrete evidence itself. But it makes sense.

Modifié par staindgrey, 16 octobre 2011 - 05:11 .

[In Exile]

onelifecrisis wrote...
The bold bit is the exact problem I have with this theory of yours. The collectors harvest resources. Why send them out to harvest early, at a time when they are at risk, when you could send them out later when there is no resistance?

To weaken humanity and cause strife. Look at Omega - every race but humans infested with a plague, every race targeting humans. A political crisis with humanity trying to figure out where their colonists are dissapearing and targeting the other species... and then the reapers jump in.

It's not more or less terrible than the ME1 plot holes. 

[onelifecrisis]

Okay here are the one's I didn't answer.

The Interloper wrote...

1. Their fault.

Really I just didn't know what to say to that. It's my fault? Okay, whatever.

The Interloper wrote...

6. Within ME2 it elaborates on what the collectors are up to. Overall nothing, no.

I assumed this was a concession.

The Interloper wrote...

9. But seriously, I don't think that many people were so confused by [what the HR was].

I concede.

The Interloper wrote...

10. It appears in ME3 they are one and the same. But we don't know what cerberus's game is yet, so the point is moot.

In other words, it's either redundant or more foreshadowing.

After that you went on to talk about DLC and, honestly, I didn't even read that. Really, if a game's plot is such a mess that DLC is actually required to make sense of it then I've pretty much won the argument AFAIC.

Then you posted these:

The Interloper wrote...

5. It was just mentioned. In ME2 we got to see it firsthand and found out that the genophage can be dispelled, which completely changes the issue and will undoubtedly explain the open hostilities between krogans and salarians in ME3. As for the data, I could have sworn I heard it confirmed that what you did with it will make a difference. I suspect/hope that even if you can rebuild the data, having to do so will still make a difference compared to just having it ready to roll.

Hmm. Convenient how anything that supports your argument, no matter how deeply buried in dialgue trees it is, counts as a plot development, but something that supports mine is something that was "just mentioned". Kinda like the way that plot defenders like yourself tend to hate being told that a story should or should not be told a certain way (e.g. killing the protagonist at the start of act 2 is bad writing) and then claim that the second part of a trilogy "should be dark". That's why I didn't respond to this one.

The Interloper wrote...

8. The plot is in motion. Sure it's technically not building on itself, but I've read several stories where the protagonist builds something over the course of the story and then looses it all, so this is hardly unprecedented. As it is forcing shepard to loose and regain the public credibility and momentum he built in the last game is instrumental in determining the course of ME2's plot (joining cerberus, etc) and probably ME3, as we know in that the galaxy still hasn't woken up and united against to the reaper threat even when they invade.

You already know what I think of people defending one bad piece of the story with another. We've been there, so I left this one.

-------------------------


I also do not have a perfect memory and am probably repeating things I've said before and forgetting things you've said before, but hey ho.

[NOD-INFORMER37]

In Exile wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...
The bold bit is the exact problem I have with this theory of yours. The collectors harvest resources. Why send them out to harvest early, at a time when they are at risk, when you could send them out later when there is no resistance?

To weaken humanity and cause strife. Look at Omega - every race but humans infested with a plague, every race targeting humans. A political crisis with humanity trying to figure out where their colonists are dissapearing and targeting the other species... and then the reapers jump in.

It's not more or less terrible than the ME1 plot holes. 

Agreed. Some say M.E's story isnt that good, but its fantastic!

Its not just "Reapers, Reapers, Reapers" theres alot more to it than that. There are stories within the main story which are all connected, and you can actually affect depending on your actions. 

Best S.P game out there in my opinion. :/

(yes I know they'll be adding co-op ppl but that doesnt mean it'll ruin the main game, we dont know yet) 

[OMTING52601]

Thompson family wrote...

Obviously, I edited my post while you were replying, OMTING52601. Sorry for the moving target, but I myself came to the conclusion that much of what you objected too shouldn't have been posted in the first place.

... I agree the nearly endless bits of data offered up in some old school RPG's is NOT fun and moving away from eighty five million teeny tiny, have no effect on the plot of an RPG stroy, details is a good thing. I'd like some inventory control, but piles of crap I have to sort through isn't fun. Not for me, anyway.

Then we agree on more than we disagree.

Having a solidly written, well developed, detailed grown up story line where I feel like I am actually playing a character and making meaningful choices IS exactly what I want.

All right. Did DA2 move away from those elements, which both of us agree are important? I don't know and admit I don't know. And is there any evidence that ME3 is going down the same drain?

Yes. Actually, way beyond yes. I was so angry when I completed my first play through, I was looking for a way to re-shrinkwrap the damn thing and get all my money back. That said, after I cooled off, I played DA 2 again, but with the understanding that it wasn't an RPG AND that it wasn't a good addition to the DA verse. Basically, on my second and further plays I play it like it's its own stand alone action adventure game. With that in mind, I think it's terribly fun. The story is crappy and most of the characters are ridiculous cut outs of some crappy anime flick, but the energy of the combat and Varric(a companion) are so damn great, IMO, that I've played DA 2 almost as many times as Origins. 

Obviously, I think the plot of ME2 was a very significant improvement over ME1, which is a contentious point but I'm willing to give my reasons why.

I don't think it was a significant improvement, per se. But I believe it's well written, well executed, and a positive addition to the Effect verse. When I finished 2, even though I realized all I really did was tread water -so to speak- plotwise, I didn't feel like it was a wasted effort. I felt more immersed in the verse, more invested in certain characters certainly.

Will ME 3 continue that? I don't know. I'm not liking the vibe that the reason why this is the end of Shep's involvement is because s/he must die or that most, if not all, of his/hers team will also die. That will seriously p*ss me off. I get the whole 'everything can't always be happy ever after' but come the frack on. I don't play games, read books, or watch movies for their 'realism'. I do those things to be entertained. So if I want the damn happy parade of kisses and I'm the baddest mofo in the universe ending, I should be able to achieve it in a game. 

[onelifecrisis]

In Exile wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...
The bold bit is the exact problem I have with this theory of yours. The collectors harvest resources. Why send them out to harvest early, at a time when they are at risk, when you could send them out later when there is no resistance?

To weaken humanity and cause strife. Look at Omega - every race but humans infested with a plague, every race targeting humans. A political crisis with humanity trying to figure out where their colonists are dissapearing and targeting the other species... and then the reapers jump in.

Seriously?

[staindgrey]

Thompson family wrote...

*snip*

All right. Did DA2 move away from those elements, which both of us agree are important? I don't know and admit I don't know. And is there any evidence that ME3 is going down the same drain?

DA2 did somewhat. Its decision-making was ultimately negated by automatic plot points, which are the exact opposite of feeling like you are in control of your own actions. Imagine, if you will, if in ME2, you could never save the crew, you always had to give TIM the Collector Base, you never left Omega and nothing you did in ME1 had any meaningful impact on the events of DA2 whatsoever because you never saw any of the characters and you couldn't even play as Shepard.

The ire DA2 receives is for entirely different reasons than what ME3 could do. And most of it can be explained by the rushed development schedule, while some of it is just design choice. Most of the changes DA2 received aren't really possible or probable in ME2, though, so no worries.

All that said, I really enjoyed DA2 (moreso than DAO, but that's because I hated DAO's combat and inventory sooo much). But anytime I play it, it's painfully obvious how much potential is wasted. Had EA let it cook for another year or so, it could've been something incredible. Instead, it was alright.

[didymos1120]

staindgrey wrote...

It actually isn't implied; it's outright said. It's just found in quotes during the suicide mission that one can barely hear and likely isn't paying attention to: 

Harbinger lists the weaknesses of the other races, while calling humans the only "viable" option. This, in addition to his constant use of "salvation", etc., and we can safely assume that is the exact reason why there is a human Reaper, and not another race.

He can say that stuff at about other races at any time.  It's apparently just random, but with certain lines given preference.  Or at least, I've never found a reliable way to trigger any of the stuff in any of the combat soundsets.

[In Exile]

onelifecrisis wrote...
Seriously?

You asked for a reason. There you go. 

It's a B-movie action plot based on a game that had a b0rked timeline 3hrs in and a few plot holes you could drive a truck through. What exactly did you expect?

[Thompson family]

OMTING52601 wrote...


Yes. Actually, way beyond yes. I was so angry when I completed my first play through, I was looking for a way to re-shrinkwrap the damn thing and get all my money back. That said, after I cooled off, I played DA 2 again, but with the understanding that it wasn't an RPG AND that it wasn't a good addition to the DA verse. Basically, on my second and further plays I play it like it's its own stand alone action adventure game. With that in mind, I think it's terribly fun. The story is crappy and most of the characters are ridiculous cut outs of some crappy anime flick, but the energy of the combat and Varric(a companion) are so damn great, IMO, that I've played DA 2 almost as many times as Origins.

Which means that, though you enjoyed it later, and not as a true sequel to DA:O.. That lack of consistency felt like a "bait and switch." I get that. Now you're argument makes more sense, because DA2 lower sales seem to indicate that a good game that isn't an RPG performed more poorly than an RPG.

Still, I respectfully disagree that DA2 proves the point that more streamlined games result in worse sales. DA2 failed to bring in new customers, drove off loyal ones and embittered many of those it didn't drive off. That's true -- but ME2 did not. Yes, some people who love ME1 were bitterly disappointed, but there was a very large net gain. BW still admits it went too far in stripping down the inventory and the character building, but not as badly as they did in DA2, apparently. More important, I've played enough DA:O to know that the inventory and other systems didn't need fixing. ME1's definitely did. So changes to DAO core gameplay provoked much more of a "WTF" reaction than the overhaul of ME.

I don't know how much reviews matter in game sales. Not as much as word-of-mouth, I assume. I remember, though, that reviews of DA2 were harsh and word of mouth from the loyal fanbase was acidic.

I don't think (the plot of ME2) was a significant improvement, per se. But I believe it's well written, well executed, and a positive addition to the Effect verse. When I finished 2, even though I realized all I really did was tread water -so to speak- plotwise, I didn't feel like it was a wasted effort. I felt more immersed in the verse, more invested in certain characters certainly.

My bias her is that I'm a former political reporter, having covered state government for more than a decade, and being a history nut. If I had to sum up the reason ME2 struck me as having a better plot, those words would be "The politics."

The Alliance is clearly rife with high level Cerberus sympathizers. The whole Geth-Quarian thing fascinates me. Aria T'lok is one of the strongest characters in either game. Shep's about to become a scapegoat after the "Arrival" episode. Liara runs the most powerful intelligence network in the galaxy. This is fascinating stuff to me, perhaps more than others.

I have a very hard time believing Shep will die, also. I think the "end of the story line" is that they will simply stop making games with him/her as a playable character.

[JeffZero]

@Thompson

Very nicely put on what draws you to ME2. I think that's a huge part of it for me as well.

[Thompson family]

didymos1120 wrote...

staindgrey wrote...

It actually isn't implied; it's outright said. It's just found in quotes during the suicide mission that one can barely hear and likely isn't paying attention to: 

Harbinger lists the weaknesses of the other races, while calling humans the only "viable" option. This, in addition to his constant use of "salvation", etc., and we can safely assume that is the exact reason why there is a human Reaper, and not another race.

He can say that stuff at about other races at any time.  It's apparently just random, but with certain lines given preference.  Or at least, I've never found a reliable way to trigger any of the stuff in any of the combat soundsets.

I wonder if Harby talks about the Drell if Thane is with you, the Asari if Samara or Morinth is with you, etc.?

[Thompson family]

JeffZero wrote...

@Thompson

Very nicely put on what draws you to ME2. I think that's a huge part of it for me as well.

I should mention one aspect of ME1's plot that was clearly better.

Saren was one great villian.

I think TIM will be a great villain too, possibly even a better one than Saren, in ME3. The situation in ME2 was too ambiguous to allow that.

[Thompson family]

staindgrey wrote...

Imagine, if you will, if in ME2, you could never save the crew, you always had to give TIM the Collector Base, you never left Omega and nothing you did in ME1 had any meaningful impact on the events of DA2 whatsoever because you never saw any of the characters and you couldn't even play as Shepard.

OK. Thanks. That's all the explanation I'll ever need.

[Made Nightwing]

Well, I've always considered myself something of an RPG-lite fan. So the first Mass Effect was just about perfect for me in that regard. That said, the great story, and massively improved action in ME2 was something I loved. Soooo...they haven't lost me for ME 3, and they've gained my brother and two other friends as fans.

[staindgrey]

Thompson family wrote...

staindgrey wrote...

Imagine, if you will, if in ME2, you could never save the crew, you always had to give TIM the Collector Base, you never left Omega and nothing you did in ME1 had any meaningful impact on the events of DA2 whatsoever because you never saw any of the characters and you couldn't even play as Shepard.

OK. Thanks. That's all the explanation I'll ever need.

Haha I know it sounds pretty bleak, but essentially that's what happened to people wanting a true DA:O sequel. By adding the "II" at the end of the title, Bioware gave false hopes for the game. Really, it would've benefited by simply being called "Dragon Age: Hawke's Rise" or something. They feel like entirely different games based in the same universe, with tiny cameos made by former characters, nothing more.

The GOOD NEWS though is Bioware's awareness of what they did right and wrong in the game. In their DLC, they've really tried to remedy the biggest complaints by altering enemy combat, locales, etc. as much as they could within the DAII engine. Plus they have some deliciously self-aware dialogue in the game itself, like when characters complain about being in Kirkwall way too much (one of the biggest complaints against the game, period).

But if you enjoy politics, sir, you may actually find a lot to love in DA2. I won't elaborate unless you really want to know, since we shouldn't get too far away from the original topic. Just know that, if you spend 7 years in the same city-state, politics and relations are bound to be a hot topic.

[onelifecrisis]

In Exile wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...
Seriously?

You asked for a reason. There you go. 

It's a B-movie action plot based on a game that had a b0rked timeline 3hrs in and a few plot holes you could drive a truck through. What exactly did you expect?

An improvement. That's what developers generally try to do with sequels - improve on the first game.

Edit:
You know, as for the ME1 plot, I don't remember there being too many plot holes. Saren's trial springs immediately to mind, and the timeline has problems as you mentioned, plus I took issue with Wrex suddenly appearing on the Normandy for no particular reason... and off the top of my head that's all I can remember noticing.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 16 octobre 2011 - 06:36 .

[OMTING52601]

Thompson family wrote...

Still, I respectfully disagree that DA2 proves the point that more streamlined games result in worse sales. DA2 failed to bring in new customers, drove off loyal ones and embittered many of those it didn't drive off. That's true -- but ME2 did not. Yes, some people who love ME1 were bitterly disappointed, but there was a very large net gain. BW still admits it went too far in stripping down the inventory and the character building, but not as badly as they did in DA2, apparently. More important, I've played enough DA:O to know that the inventory and other systems didn't need fixing. ME1's definitely did. So changes to DAO core gameplay provoked much more of a "WTF" reaction than the overhaul of ME.

DA 2 doesn't prove that point on its own. It's looking at how DA 2 did - as a less player agent friendly AND traditional element lacking RPG -(or didn't) in context with other RPG's which *do* contain the 'nitpicky' elements of more classic RPG's. Witcher 2 has sold close to a million copies, admittedly on PC alone(though 360 version is due soon, or was, last I checked). It's not farfetched to assume that it will out sell both ME and ME 2 in that medium in less time. Also, while ME 2 had outsold ME 1 the difference in total sales to date isn't enormous. It's a nice bit of growth, a little more than ten percent, but I'm not sure that's significant enough to prove that slimming RPG elements is truly 'profitable'. And without concrete information to show how many ME buyers picked up ME 2, I'm not able to make any further assessment. IMO, however, I'd guess that at best ME 2 picked up maybe six percent in new players, with the other four or five percent being buyers who had played/bought ME 1 used, and so their sales data wouldn't be incorporated into figures.

I don't know how much reviews matter in game sales. Not as much as word-of-mouth, I assume. I remember, though, that reviews of DA2 were harsh and word of mouth from the loyal fanbase was acidic.

Reviews matter to people who choose to read them, but as with any type of consumer item, word of mouth has farther reaching and deeper impact on sales in any fashion: be it video games or hamburger joints.

My bias her[e] is that I'm a former political reporter, having covered state government for more than a decade, and being a history nut. If I had to sum up the reason ME2 struck me as having a better plot, those words would be "The politics."

The Alliance is clearly rife with high level Cerberus sympathizers. The whole Geth-Quarian thing fascinates me. Aria T'lok is one of the strongest characters in either game. Shep's about to become a scapegoat after the "Arrival" episode. Liara runs the most powerful intelligence network in the galaxy. This is fascinating stuff to me, perhaps more than others.

I have a very hard time believing Shep will die, also. I think the "end of the story line" is that they will simply stop making games with him/her as a playable character.

Ack, I loathe politics - it's probably one of the biggest reasons DA 2 failed for me. There's no way to win in politics, it's a game of bs and backstabbing, and considering I live in the US... Oy, but that's off topic. I'd be okay with Shep is out but not dead as a final resolution, but if the game is "going to make you cry" I have to think it's not because Shep gets a really nice parade when he gets back to Earth.

Modifié par OMTING52601, 16 octobre 2011 - 06:34 .