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Bioware: Are they gaining more fans than they are losing?


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#51
shepskisaac

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GodWood wrote...

The ME series is successfully gathering a larger fanbase by streamlining features and appealing to the more casual market.

The DA series is failing in gathering a larger fanbase by completely abandoning the majority of their original fanbase in an attempt to draw in a casual audience that is not interested.

Pretty much. ME2, while streamlined, was still a bloody good game which is what saved it from being another DA2.

But the truth is that ideally, BioWare & EA should aim for BOTH the hardcore & casual crowd. This is something companies often fail to get blinded by Call of Duty sales numbers. But both 'crowds' have their advantages AND disadvantages.

The hardcore crowd is simply not big enough to guarantee return of investement these days, when AAA games don't really sell higher numbers than they did in the 00s or mid/late 90s while their budgets skyrocketed from thousands of dollars to tens of millions. BUT. It's the hardcore crowd that is the most influental. It's the hardcore crowd that sits on the forums, message boards and passionately writes tirades about the games they've bought. It's the hardcore crowd that 'approves' games' quality or tranishes a game's reputation. Dragon Age 2 is the prime example. Awful word-of-mouth fueled mainly by angry hardcore gamers pretty much destroyed the game's reputation thus its sales legs and turned BioWare's image from the beloved RPG-dev into a studio-to-beat almost overnight. In comparsion, it's the hardcore crowd that made The Witcher 2 a success and holy-grail-of-RPGs.

Casuals are strong in numbers. But they are also ignorant customers and at the same time unloyal customers. They're the ones who say "Why do I need Medal of Honor when I have COD?", "Why do I need LOTR Online/Conan Online when I have WOW?", "Why do I need anything other than Angry Birds?". Until their favourite franchise remains the "it" product, they will clutch to it and ignore everything else, no matter how much developers try to get them interested. It's the hardcore crowd that "gives games a chance". But when a series' novelty wears out, casuals will abandon it without a second thought. Music games (Guitar Hero, Rock Band etc), Wii games of pretty much any kind.

So aim for both the hardcore & casual market BioWare/EA, but if you really have to chose, then I say pick the hardcore crowd, as annoying & stupid as zealot fanboys and purists may be sometimes. The consequences of picking the hardcore crowd & failing commercially will be much less severe in long-term perspective than picking the casual crowd and failing commercially. When you pick the hardcore crowd & fail in sales, you still have your hardcore crowd loyal & supportive for your next game that hopefullly will fare better sales-wise. But when you pick the casual crowd & fail in sales, you have no one, either hardcore or casual, and the brand' & studio's reputation is tranished among both crowds for years to come.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 13 octobre 2011 - 02:07 .


#52
FDrage

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Beerfish wrote...

DA2 had a few flaws but was still fun with much re-playability and some of the finest BioWare companions and quests they have done.


DA2 is a game that didn't deserve the harsh treatment it got from some corners of the fan base.
However the strange thing so is that at the moment I'm on DA2 playthrough number 1.5 and I can't get myself to get back to it atm. Granted .. with ME2 I still have my issues with things that I don't like about shooters in general. However I still replayed it lots of times.

ME3 had so far more "new" things announced that I don't care as much about then things I get excited about ... total ... 3 (+1 unannounced thing that will still come) : 1. But then I'm more inclinded to SciFi then Fantasy ... so that might play a role as well.

I'm just waiting that bioware introduced checkpoint only save games during the missions ... that would just make my "pet annoyance" day in regards to shooters. :crying:

Modifié par FDrage, 13 octobre 2011 - 02:08 .


#53
Halo Quea

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Gabey5 wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The ME series is successfully gathering a larger fanbase by streamlining features and appealing to the more casual market.


ME2 was a success because BW removed all the useless junk of ME1. That's evolution mate, and that by definition means streamlining. Everything that serves no purpose is pointless thus should be removed. BW went a bit too far with ME2, but the core features are 10x better than the ME1 gameplay crap. What's the point in having 10.000 weapons that are all junk compared to spectre gear? What's the point of having to level 10 times to gain a new and more powerful skill / ability? What's the point of having a crap load of armor when everyone equips the best one only? etc etc.


yup, getting rid othis crap was good

remember Image IPB


>REDUCE TO OMNI-GEL
>REDUCE TO OMNI-GEL
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can i please play the damn game?


And of course this was better -_-

>LAUNCHING PROBE
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Oh yeah, that's evolution.  <_<

#54
Il Divo

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Halo Quea wrote...
And of course this was better -_-

>LAUNCHING PROBE
>LAUNCHING PROBE
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>LAUNCHING PROBE

Oh yeah, that's evolution.  <_<



Not better, but especially with an imported character, I found myself launching far less probes than I found myself making omnigel. Although, a more accurate comparison would be launch probe vs. scan planet, watch mako land, find base, clear out single generic room of enemies. Neither was particularly awe-inspiring.

Modifié par Il Divo, 13 octobre 2011 - 02:15 .


#55
GMagnum

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dis looks interesting

#56
Ecto-Plasmic Effect

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That's a question only BioWare has the answer to. Yeah, you hear people talking about cancelling their preorder, but would they actually not buy the game? After spending many hours and playing multiple playthroughs in ME1 and ME2, it will be silly of them not to get ME3 so they can complete the story. To me, the ones that are leaving because of an optional feature aren't the true fans.

#57
Dragoonlordz

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Well I can only speak for myself but they are losing me (which they are probably happy about given how a lot of the users on here prefer to argue with me than simply discuss with me), for one simply reason is they are beginning to make things the way and in aspects that do not appeal to me.

For example Social games (DA: Legends) does nothing for me and I am not interested in that stuff, same applies to MMOs (SWTOR) I dont wish to waste my time playing those, DA2 was not something I enjoyed and was too far into the hack and slash terrirtory for my liking and with many faults, so many put my off buying anything to do with the title plus ME2 was worse imho than ME1. Now MP and Kinect gimmicks in ME3, if ME3 was not the last in the trilogy I probably would have passed on it too.

They just seem to no longer be heading in direction of games I liked, instead seem to be concentrating on Social games, MMO games and MP games now more and more streamlining and simplification in other titles too. It is just not what I enjoy so after ME3 I can't see anything on the horizon they are making which appeals to me personally.

I am a casual gamer and that is because I do not play games that often only casually. But even though I do not play many games, I do tend to play ones with most depth and content in a single player perspective. I consider myself casual and simplification and streamlining is not what I want in games.

These forums show that the fanbase is increasing but the fans they are attracting are more vitirol, vicious and griefing variety, when you attract the CoD or GoW fanbase more and more you gain their lust for talking crap and griefing other members who have a different opinion. In this very thread you see those same people this new fans and old fans corrupted calling other fans butthurt nerdragers and even worse names, that is the effect of this new fanbase.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 octobre 2011 - 02:38 .


#58
Cutlass Jack

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Based on how active the forums are currently based on how active they were back when ME1 came out, I'd say the answer is yes.

Some of the supposed 'fans they're losing' they can't seem to beat away from these forums with a stick. Image IPB

#59
zweistein_J

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Bogsnot1 wrote...

Its only butthurt nerdragers who have no idea about Bioware's history that are threatening to cancel their pre-orders. So, yes, I would say so.


^
+1

#60
Gabey5

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Halo Quea wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The ME series is successfully gathering a larger fanbase by streamlining features and appealing to the more casual market.


ME2 was a success because BW removed all the useless junk of ME1. That's evolution mate, and that by definition means streamlining. Everything that serves no purpose is pointless thus should be removed. BW went a bit too far with ME2, but the core features are 10x better than the ME1 gameplay crap. What's the point in having 10.000 weapons that are all junk compared to spectre gear? What's the point of having to level 10 times to gain a new and more powerful skill / ability? What's the point of having a crap load of armor when everyone equips the best one only? etc etc.


yup, getting rid othis crap was good

remember Image IPB


>REDUCE TO OMNI-GEL
>can i please play the damn game?


And of course this was better -_-

>LAUNCHING PROBE
Oh yeah, that's evolution.  <_<


haha

at least we won't be seeing that ever again. Hopefully

Modifié par Gabey5, 13 octobre 2011 - 02:31 .


#61
Tooneyman

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Chris Priestly wrote...

Oh, and we are not losing fans. We've been steadily increasing our community for years now. Image IPB




Image IPB


Who saw that coming?... ;)

#62
Nathander Von Eric

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You know what's going to stop me from buying a new copy of the game and playing on my PC?

Having to install Origin.Origin is what I call poor performance and ME3's EULA states that installing Origin will be required. You lost my money Bioware.

I'll just wait and buy a used copy for the Xbox 360. Of course that means that I won't be able to play multiplayer because I won't be buying a stupid online play pass either.

Oh well.

#63
Walker White

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IssacShep wrote...

But the truth is that ideally, BioWare & EA should aim for BOTH the hardcore & casual crowd. This is something companies often fail to get blinded by Call of Duty sales numbers. But both 'crowds' have their advantages AND disadvantages.


There wass an excellent talk at GDC Online the other day (by a BioWare Austin employee no less) pointing out something that has been clear for a while: the popular conception of the casual versus core divide is completely wrong. Every game has core gamers; a core gamer is someone who has a large amount of emotional investment in that particular game. People who pay $100 a month in Farmville ae core FarmVille gamers. People who buy all the Sims expansion packs are core Sims gamers. And yes, a lot of the people on this forum at core ME gamers.

The problem is that you cannot make a game just for your core gamers. While people can switch between which game they are core over time, at any given time a person is really only likely to be a core gamer for a single game. In that respect, the core gamer is really more of an otaku phenomenom. As we saw from the death of the fighter genre, only appealing to your core base means that you have dwindling players over time until you die.

So you have to have a casual component to bring in new players. But the key challenge is to make the game in such a way that the casual gamers for your game can become core over time. This is the whole "simple to learn, difficult to master" concept. And while some RPG fans may not be happy with it, this is one of the reasons for streamlining mechanics. If you give a new player too much choice at the beginning, they get lost and bewildered and will never become core. So your player base narrows and narrows, until it disappears.

#64
Walker White

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Damn iPad. Tons of typos, and the edit functionality does not work.

#65
Il Divo

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Walker White wrote...

There wass an excellent talk at GDC Online the other day (by a BioWare Austin employee no less) pointing out something that has been clear for a while: the popular conception of the casual versus core divide is completely wrong. Every game has core gamers; a core gamer is someone who has a large amount of emotional investment in that particular game. People who pay $100 a month in Farmville ae core FarmVille gamers. People who buy all the Sims expansion packs are core Sims gamers. And yes, a lot of the people on this forum at core ME gamers.

The problem is that you cannot make a game just for your core gamers. While people can switch between which game they are core over time, at any given time a person is really only likely to be a core gamer for a single game. In that respect, the core gamer is really more of an otaku phenomenom. As we saw from the death of the fighter genre, only appealing to your core base means that you have dwindling players over time until you die.

So you have to have a casual component to bring in new players. But the key challenge is to make the game in such a way that the casual gamers for your game can become core over time. This is the whole "simple to learn, difficult to master" concept. And while some RPG fans may not be happy with it, this is one of the reasons for streamlining mechanics. If you give a new player too much choice at the beginning, they get lost and bewildered and will never become core. So your player base narrows and narrows, until it disappears.


So if we take something like 2.0 DnD Baldur's Gate or Planescape, which have fairly in-depth rulesets associated with them, we could potentially see how it would turn off many potentials from playing through the series all together ?

#66
Cpt-Kirrahe

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Chris Priestly wrote...

tez19 wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Yes. Bioware is doing all of this because of a dwindling fanbase. /sarcasm
It is amazing to me how people on these forums equate "I'm unhappy" with "everyone is unhappy".

That is why i am asking the question and asking people to discuss their views. Is your reading comprehension that bad?


Tez, you are noticibly arguing with people who are disagreeing with you. You asked for people's opinions and they are giving them. If you did not want their opinions that disagree with yours, you should not have asked for them.

I know, from your prior responses, you are very negative on ME3 at the moment due to multiplay. That is fine, hopefully we can still show you that the SP ME3 game is what you want and hope it will be. Howvever, if you continue to try to rally the community against us here and you do not find support form teh community or staff, do not be surprised.



Image IPB


The good Captain would agree with this post.

#67
Dragoonlordz

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Il Divo wrote...

Walker White wrote...

There wass an excellent talk at GDC Online the other day (by a BioWare Austin employee no less) pointing out something that has been clear for a while: the popular conception of the casual versus core divide is completely wrong. Every game has core gamers; a core gamer is someone who has a large amount of emotional investment in that particular game. People who pay $100 a month in Farmville ae core FarmVille gamers. People who buy all the Sims expansion packs are core Sims gamers. And yes, a lot of the people on this forum at core ME gamers.

The problem is that you cannot make a game just for your core gamers. While people can switch between which game they are core over time, at any given time a person is really only likely to be a core gamer for a single game. In that respect, the core gamer is really more of an otaku phenomenom. As we saw from the death of the fighter genre, only appealing to your core base means that you have dwindling players over time until you die.

So you have to have a casual component to bring in new players. But the key challenge is to make the game in such a way that the casual gamers for your game can become core over time. This is the whole "simple to learn, difficult to master" concept. And while some RPG fans may not be happy with it, this is one of the reasons for streamlining mechanics. If you give a new player too much choice at the beginning, they get lost and bewildered and will never become core. So your player base narrows and narrows, until it disappears.


So if we take something like 2.0 DnD Baldur's Gate or Planescape, which have fairly in-depth rulesets associated with them, we could potentially see how it would turn off many potentials from playing through the series all together ?


But they haven't made another BG and PST style title to compare against, it may sell much more than DA2 or ME3 if a new one of those sort of titles came out. You can't compare those old title sales with new ones because the difference in time where the population is higher therefore the consumer base is too plus more disposable income these days which allows more people to invest in gaming aswell as the vast drop in price of systems both PS3, 360 and PC components. DAO was a throwback towards those titles even though only a halfway measure and as shown is sold extremely well around same amount as ME2 if not slightly less or slightly more.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 octobre 2011 - 02:51 .


#68
CptBomBom00

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Thing is simple if ME3 somehow I don't is screwed up for example we can't do anything about our crew dying, planets being destroyed or some other things like that, so that would be major down hit for BioWare.

#69
Il Divo

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Dragoonlordz wrote...


But they haven't made another BG and PST to compare against, it may sell much more than DA2 or ME3 if a new one of those sort of titles came out. You can't compare those old title sales with new ones because the difference in time where the population is higher therefore the consumer base is too plus more disposable income these days which allows more people to invest in gaming. DAO was a throwback towards those titles even though only a halfway measure and as shown is sold extremely well around same amount as ME2 if not slightly less or slightly more.


Sure, in this day and age it could sell more. But the rule set of DnD is large enough that there are books designed to explain to players who are unfamiliar how the gameplay mechanics work. In the case of BG, I recall that the developers provided a lengthy manual as well. The more "prep time" required before I can engage in any product, the less likely I am to bother trying. It essentially serves as a barrier to entry.

I should also point out that the appeal of BG was not simply in the gameplay mechanics but in the story being told (BGII) and that Bioware had not done a swords n sorcery setting since Neverwinter Nights. By invoking Baldur's Gate, they essentially told fans "Hey, we're throwing out another fantasy epic" which drove everyone crazy. It's not clear if DnD mechanics would have worked towards that goal.

Modifié par Il Divo, 13 octobre 2011 - 02:54 .


#70
Walker White

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Il Divo wrote...

So if we take something like 2.0 DnD Baldur's Gate or Planescape, which have fairly in-depth rulesets associated with them, we could potentially see how it would turn off many potentials from playing through the series all together ?


A large part of the player base for those games at the time had done one of the following:

1. They came from a pen-and-paper background. In that case, they went from casual to core via mentoring by a human being. And in fact, it was the declining mentoring feature (e.g. More people approaching the hobby fresh without veteran gamers to work with) that encouraged Wizards to change D&D as much as they did.

2. They played a much simpler RPG first which had simpler character builds (remember, skills were muted in 2nd edition and almost nonexistent in 1st). This funneled them into these more complex games.

These funnels do not exist these days. The entertainment market is so fragmented that you cannot depend on other games to train the player base for your different game. You have to do it in your own game.


By the way,, the number of people that bought these games was MUCH smaller than the game mark these days. Enough that if you got those numbers, the game would be a financial failure.

#71
Walker White

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Game market. I really should not try to type on a iPad in the middle of a conference talk.

#72
Dragoonlordz

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Il Divo wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...


But they haven't made another BG and PST to compare against, it may sell much more than DA2 or ME3 if a new one of those sort of titles came out. You can't compare those old title sales with new ones because the difference in time where the population is higher therefore the consumer base is too plus more disposable income these days which allows more people to invest in gaming. DAO was a throwback towards those titles even though only a halfway measure and as shown is sold extremely well around same amount as ME2 if not slightly less or slightly more.


Sure, in this day and age it could sell more. But the rule set of DnD is large enough that there are books designed to explain to players who are unfamiliar how the gameplay mechanics work. In the case of BG, I recall that the developers provided a lengthy manual as well. The more "prep time" required before I can engage in any product, the less likely I am to bother trying. It essentially serves as a barrier to entry.


But that does not mean that for each single person who finds a game too complicated that there isn't two or more who are interested due to this depth and such. A barrier to some is a reason to buy for others. The one thing that could come close but in no way solid proof one way or other is have Bioware since mentioning this MP seen a truly vast increase in pre-orders or a slight decline in take up of preorders. Has to be large increase rather than slight to overcome the general time barrier of the longer time passes obviously will be a slight increase as it is doubtful will go into reverse but speed of take up is what I am questioning..

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 13 octobre 2011 - 02:59 .


#73
slimgrin

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Imo they are. They do a lot in their games to appeal to a broad audience, and I don't mean that as a negative statement but it's the truth.

#74
Walker White

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

Btu that does not mean that for each single person who finds a game too complicated that there isn't two or more who are interested due to this depth and such. A barrier to some is a reason to buy for others.


This is both right and wrong depending on how you look at it. Depth and complexity is definitely a selling factor, as long as you have a gentle learning curve to bring new players into the game at the beginning. So they grow into the complexity over time. Indeed, this is one of the nice features avout leveling. You start with very few options in order to learn how to play, and options only open up as you progress.

But starting with the complexity in the beginning loses more than it gains. This has been shown time and time again.

#75
GMagnum

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hey guys does medi-gel work w/ legion cuz that'd be dumb