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[PsychoBlonde]

So, here, (kind of) is my review of MotA.

Dear Tallis: 

You left in a hurry after our recent adventure, so I'd just like to say a few things that I didn't manage to articulate at the time.

I don't care about this stupid jewel.  I never cared about it.  I went on this little adventure with you because I was curious, not because I wanted or needed cash.  Sadly, due to your endless vacillating and personal confusions, my curiosity really wasn't satisfied.  So I consider that I remain unpaid for my efforts.

Your crack about human "cruelty and indifference" was most amusing, considering you were here because the Qunari wrote off the lives of their own agents as not worth saving, whereas a human was willing to give you a hand on the basis that she's prefer distant strangers not suffer unjustly.  Heck, considering the time it must have taken for Salit to travel to the south and set up a meeting with a human willing to deal, they had plenty of time to surreptitiously warn the agents to flee, thus killing two birds with one stone: a.) they didn't have to risk the lives of *more* antaam in pointless fights protecting agents, and b.) the agents themselves were not endangered.  But they couldn't even be arsed to do that much.

*Everything* you claim about the Qunari is contradicted by their behavior.  (Granted, some of your claims are contradicted by your other claims, so maybe it's a wash.)  It seems weird that I should have to tell you this, but if there's one thing I've learned about elves, it's that they seem to lack any kind of critical thinking skills whatsoever.  In some cases (Fenris) this is a (somewhat) understandable result of personal trauma, but in most cases it seems to be a straightforward placement of emotion over reason.  Interesting, because the Qunari supposedly elevate reason over emotion.

Your representation to me regarding the nature of Salit's plan was severely misleading, and I am annoyed about this.  First, you claimed that innocents on "both sides" would suffer if he carried out his plan.  The general Qunari populace was entirely insulated from the negative results of Salit's plan.  The ONLY people who were going to get hurt would have been the Qunari agents (who, being agents, are not innocents) and the various non-Qunari who are involved with them for one reason or another.  On the other hand, if Salit's plan WAS carried out, some non-Qunari innocents would, in fact, suffer.  However, many thousands or tens of thousands might be saved from destruction by stopping the flow of information through the Qunari spy network.  So we actually would have been the clear winners there.  

Of course, I should have spotted this right off the bat and prevented you from leaving with that scroll by any means possible. "Qunari" and "Innocent" are contradictions in terms due to the very structure of their society.  The shopkeepers, artisans, blah, blah, blah do not live for their own sakes, but for the sake of all Qunari--which makes them an intrinsic part of the Qunari war machine, providing it with food, succor, weapons.  These people are fuel for the stated goal of conquering all of Thedas.  You don't have to pick up a weapon yourself in order to be party to an atrocity.  Anyway, I blame myself for not walking away as soon as I could, and I intend to begin a program of exposing Qunari agents whenever I can find the time.  At least this little escapade has alerted me to their existence and prevalence.  It's too bad I didn't have a chance to speak to Salit--I would have liked to hear his reasons for leaving the Qun and acting as he did.

Next, killing someone and then blaming him for it is not right.  Yes, it didn't have to end in violence.  Yes, he could have walked away.  SO COULD YOU.  In this you are indeed Qunari, because you certainly subscribe to their apparent belief that their goals (or "demands", or "duties") excuse *anything*.  The Arishok was given the opportunity to walk away.  He chose to push his luck.  Now he's dead.

Or maybe I'm too harsh--we're not *presently* at war with the Qunari even though we've certainly offended them and it is their goal to eventually conquer us.  However, it may simply be they well recognize that, if it came to total war, they would lose.  Lose horribly.  Destructively.  Apocalyptically.  Not because they lack strength or determination or capability, but because of the rabid monster they would unleash in humans.  It is not so surprising that they shrink from mages, but what they don't know is that the madness they fear comes not from magic or demons, but is inherent in every person, everywhere.  It can never be overcome, because that would mean an end even worse than that final, total war.  It would mean giving up.  On everything.  Forever.  War would bring death to many humans, but some might survive.  Some might even manage to make it out intact.  The Qunari would not--if finally cornered, they would fight until they ceased to exist, either because they were dead, or because those who remained abandoned the Qun.  That is why they draw back from it.  The humans will not draw back from it, because no matter what happened, they would always think that by clinging to their madness just a little longer, they could "win".  Or, worse, they would decide that mutually assured destruction was better than losing.  Either way, no more Qunari.  50/50 shot of human survival.

I am not telling you this as a threat, but as a warning--to give you time to think, and maybe time to do something about it.  It does not have to be one or the other--but it WILL be, if they continue on their present course.  We can't walk away--you and our own nature have deprived us of that option.  But you CAN.  I don't mean walk away from the Qun.  (And I wouldn't expect it, I'm not that kind of crazy.)  I mean walk away from your methods of trying to propagate it.

Will this be easy?  No, it'll be a bloody, ugly mess.  It'll mean humans having to fight other humans in order to protect the Qunari from US--because some of us have already jumped over the cliff as far as the Qunari are concerned.  It may mean Qunari fighting other Qunari who can't understand why humans are the way they are and why this is necessary.  And that is NOT going to be an easy sell.  But there ARE people whose love of justice is stronger than their love of other people who happen to belong to the same race or credo.  Maybe it won't be enough--but it'd be worth the effort just to try.  And it's a damn sight better than mutually assured destruction.

I've rambled enough, I'd just like to close by saying that, given the choice, I would have preferred to let the Arishok leave peacefully with the stupid book.  But when you murder the man whose only crime lay in trying to hold back the tide and then *demand* that further sacrifices be turned over to you, that's crossing the line.  I'm sorry he's dead.  I'm NOT sorry I told him no.  If I'd done it sooner, maybe Dumas would still be alive.  Maybe Seamus would still be alive.

Sadly, my abilities as a fortune-teller are not that precise.

Loren Hawke

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm fairly certain that if war was resumed, humanity would not have the might required to destroy the Qunari. The last Qunari war "strained most human nations to the point of collapse" and they hadn't even removed them from Rivain yet, much less Par Vollen.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 octobre 2011 - 04:32 .

[Fauxnormal]

....you have got to be kidding me.

[Sylvianus]

Original and interesting, op. :happy:

[dreman9999]

It's like you don't understand the qunari at all...

Modifié par dreman9999, 14 octobre 2011 - 05:50 .

[dragonflight288]

Very interesting letter that shows Hawke's overall ignorance on Qunari culture.

Honestly blaming Qunari painters as accessories of the war machine?

[Big I]

1) Aveline's father was an Olesian chevalier at a time when Orlais occupied Ferelden. Isolde's family were the Orlesians in charge of Redcliffe. Leliana's mother worked for an Orlesian noblewoman, before and after the occupation. Under the OP's logic all these people and anyone like them are as guilty of the crimes of the occupation as the people who committed them.


2) Humans would not hold out indefinitely against the Qun. One of the biggest problems for Andrastian nations after retaking Qunari conquests is in fact wide-spread adoption of the Qun by the locals, a problem they solved by the indiscriminate killing of converts.


3) During the last war with the Qunari they almost conquered all of Thedas despite having only the resources of Par Vollen to call upon. They might have won had the Chantry not authorised the use of the Circles and called an Exalted March. Since after DA2 the Circles are rebelling and no-one seems to be listening to the Chantry, it's doubtful the Qunari would lose if they invaded again.


4) I agree the Qunari should abandon conversion by conquest.

[blothulfur]

Dear Loren Hawke.

No.

Modifié par blothulfur, 13 octobre 2011 - 10:17 .

[TEWR]

Yea.... what blothulfur said. Nothing she said contradicted anything.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Very interesting letter that shows Hawke's overall ignorance on Qunari culture.

Honestly blaming Qunari painters as accessories of the war machine?

They paint the paintings that people like Sten like! They must die for contributing to artistic society!

[Dave of Canada]

Still wanted to shank Tallis and take the scroll.

[KJandrew]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Still wanted to shank Tallis and take the scroll.

I know, i may be nice the Qunari in most my playthroughs, doesn't mean i'm going to pass up a chance to have vital information on the guys who are apparently the biggest threat to Thedas since the darkspawn.

[Mr.House]

What is this I don't even....

[Lord_Valandil]

Uh, all right I guess.

[Sylvianus]

KJandrew wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Still wanted to shank Tallis and take the scroll.

I know, i may be nice the Qunari in most my playthroughs, doesn't mean i'm going to pass up a chance to have vital information on the guys who are apparently the biggest threat to Thedas since the darkspawn.

Absolutely.

The Qunari are ruthless enemies and ruthless warriors. If they invade Thedas, it would be almost impossible to win.

In a war material, humans have almost no chance if they aren't united and determined. The poison, the battleships, monstrous bodies, their strength, their fleet, their mages, their fanaticism.

To defeat them, we must be ruthless. Without weakness. We need to use all the arms we can have to fight them, good or not. The moral should be discarded in the trash. Whoever wants to use honor  against the Qunari is an idiot. Need to be More insidious, more cunning than they are, all that can give an advantage over them, should be used.

Faith is also a major factor against the Qunari to have a chance. Faith is a powerful weapon to thwart the unity and the fanaticism of Qunari. The human nations are too divided.

We must also to use the tal vashot, powerful allies, who would be delighted to help to break the Qun and the qunari who want to kill them.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 octobre 2011 - 10:47 .

[TEWR]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

So, here, (kind of) is my review of MotA.

Dear Tallis: 

You left in a hurry after our recent adventure, so I'd just like to say a few things that I didn't manage to articulate at the time.

I don't care about this stupid jewel.  I never cared about it.  I went on this little adventure with you because I was curious, not because I wanted or needed cash.  Sadly, due to your endless vacillating and personal confusions, my curiosity really wasn't satisfied.  So I consider that I remain unpaid for my efforts.

Your crack about human "cruelty and indifference" was most amusing, considering you were here because the Qunari wrote off the lives of their own agents as not worth saving, whereas a human was willing to give you a hand on the basis that she's prefer distant strangers not suffer unjustly.  Heck, considering the time it must have taken for Salit to travel to the south and set up a meeting with a human willing to deal, they had plenty of time to surreptitiously warn the agents to flee, thus killing two birds with one stone: a.) they didn't have to risk the lives of *more* antaam in pointless fights protecting agents, and b.) the agents themselves were not endangered.  But they couldn't even be arsed to do that much.

1) Do we know that the Ben-Hassrath as a whole knew what Salit's plan was? No. We only know that Tallis knew, and she has ways of obtaining information all throughout Thedas (since she knew Hawke was invited to the party). The Ben-Hassrath as far as we know never knew Salit's plan and just considered him one Tal-Vashoth.

2) Do you know how risky it is for Qunari agents to contact one another? Even by letters, that's a big risk. People (specifically the Tevinters) are aware of Qunari agents being present in Thedas but they don't know who. however, were thos agents to suddenly disappear or act strangely, it would be a big warning sign and I'm sure a man-hunt would happen.

*Everything* you claim about the Qunari is contradicted by their behavior.  (Granted, some of your claims are contradicted by your other claims, so maybe it's a wash.)  It seems weird that I should have to tell you this, but if there's one thing I've learned about elves, it's that they seem to lack any kind of critical thinking skills whatsoever.  In some cases (Fenris) this is a (somewhat) understandable result of personal trauma, but in most cases it seems to be a straightforward placement of emotion over reason.  Interesting, because the Qunari supposedly elevate reason over emotion.

No. Nothing she claimed contradicted anything about Qunari society.

Your representation to me regarding the nature of Salit's plan was severely misleading, and I am annoyed about this.  First, you claimed that innocents on "both sides" would suffer if he carried out his plan.  The general Qunari populace was entirely insulated from the negative results of Salit's plan.  The ONLY people who were going to get hurt would have been the Qunari agents (who, being agents, are not innocents) and the various non-Qunari who are involved with them for one reason or another.  On the other hand, if Salit's plan WAS carried out, some non-Qunari innocents would, in fact, suffer.  However, many thousands or tens of thousands might be saved from destruction by stopping the flow of information through the Qunari spy network.  So we actually would have been the clear winners there.  

Actually yes Qunari innocents would die. I'm sure an Exalted March would be declared on the Qunari in Rivain and a purge by the sword would happen once knowledge of Qunari agent names was given to Empress Celene.

Of course, I should have spotted this right off the bat and prevented you from leaving with that scroll by any means possible. "Qunari" and "Innocent" are contradictions in terms due to the very structure of their society.  The shopkeepers, artisans, blah, blah, blah do not live for their own sakes, but for the sake of all Qunari--which makes them an intrinsic part of the Qunari war machine, providing it with food, succor, weapons.  These people are fuel for the stated goal of conquering all of Thedas.  You don't have to pick up a weapon yourself in order to be party to an atrocity.  Anyway, I blame myself for not walking away as soon as I could, and I intend to begin a program of exposing Qunari agents whenever I can find the time.  At least this little escapade has alerted me to their existence and prevalence.  It's too bad I didn't have a chance to speak to Salit--I would have liked to hear his reasons for leaving the Qun and acting as he did.

Oh please. that's like saying the Arishok was guilty for landing in Kirkwall in Year 1 of DAII. He was an innocent then and he was always an innocent in the game. Apparently he's guilty for what he is and not what he actually does.

That sounds a lot like how the Chantry treats mages. Locking them up for what they are and not what they do.

Next thing you're going to say is that a Qunari painter should die for making paintings that people enjoy. Oh wait... you did.

Next, killing someone and then blaming him for it is not right.  Yes, it didn't have to end in violence.  Yes, he could have walked away.  SO COULD YOU.  In this you are indeed Qunari, because you certainly subscribe to their apparent belief that their goals (or "demands", or "duties") excuse *anything*.  The Arishok was given the opportunity to walk away.  He chose to push his luck.  Now he's dead.

So treason is acceptable now? You do know that America executes traitors?

Tallis wasn't pursuing him because he was Tal-Vashoth. Again, that's as far as we know all the Ben-Hassrath knew about him leaving. She was pursuing him for what she found out he was going to do. That's more than leaving the Qun. That's betraying the Qunari in a much bigger way.

This was a personal issue with her former mentor and that's all it ever was.

I'm not here on some directive from the Qun. --- Tallis

Or maybe I'm too harsh--we're not *presently* at war with the Qunari even though we've certainly offended them and it is their goal to eventually conquer us.  However, it may simply be they well recognize that, if it came to total war, they would lose.  Lose horribly.  Destructively.  Apocalyptically.  Not because they lack strength or determination or capability, but because of the rabid monster they would unleash in humans.  It is not so surprising that they shrink from mages, but what they don't know is that the madness they fear comes not from magic or demons, but is inherent in every person, everywhere.  It can never be overcome, because that would mean an end even worse than that final, total war.  It would mean giving up.  On everything.  Forever.  War would bring death to many humans, but some might survive.  Some might even manage to make it out intact.  The Qunari would not--if finally cornered, they would fight until they ceased to exist, either because they were dead, or because those who remained abandoned the Qun.  That is why they draw back from it.  The humans will not draw back from it, because no matter what happened, they would always think that by clinging to their madness just a little longer, they could "win".  Or, worse, they would decide that mutually assured destruction was better than losing.  Either way, no more Qunari.  50/50 shot of human survival.

You do know that the Qunari Wars drained the resources of every nation to the point of near economic collapse and that the Qunari conquered much of Thedas? And that their mages have been getting stronger (see Kirkwall History Part 3)?

Add into that their cannons and their dreadnoughts, and humanity would need to be incredibly lucky to survive that. Powerful mages, cannons, dreadnoughts, and Qunari soldiers would mean the end of days, so to speak.

I am not telling you this as a threat, but as a warning--to give you time to think, and maybe time to do something about it.  It does not have to be one or the other--but it WILL be, if they continue on their present course.  We can't walk away--you and our own nature have deprived us of that option.  But you CAN.  I don't mean walk away from the Qun.  (And I wouldn't expect it, I'm not that kind of crazy.)  I mean walk away from your methods of trying to propagate it.

She does say that the system isn't perfect and even admits that "could be better" is an understatement.

Personally I see her and Sten rising to the ranks of Ariqun and Arishok respectively and changing the Qun's M.O for how they take in converts and how they treat mages. I see them as leading the Qun to only accept willing converts (true willing converts like Saemus) and bettering the treatment of mages.

But the Chantry probably still wouldn't be satisfied and they'd call an Exalted March on them still for being heathens.

Will this be easy?  No, it'll be a bloody, ugly mess.  It'll mean humans having to fight other humans in order to protect the Qunari from US--because some of us have already jumped over the cliff as far as the Qunari are concerned.  It may mean Qunari fighting other Qunari who can't understand why humans are the way they are and why this is necessary.  And that is NOT going to be an easy sell.  But there ARE people whose love of justice is stronger than their love of other people who happen to belong to the same race or credo.  Maybe it won't be enough--but it'd be worth the effort just to try.  And it's a damn sight better than mutually assured destruction.

I've rambled enough, I'd just like to close by saying that, given the choice, I would have preferred to let the Arishok leave peacefully with the stupid book.  But when you murder the man whose only crime lay in trying to hold back the tide and then *demand* that further sacrifices be turned over to you, that's crossing the line.  I'm sorry he's dead.  I'm NOT sorry I told him no.  If I'd done it sooner, maybe Dumas would still be alive.  Maybe Seamus would still be alive.

Sadly, my abilities as a fortune-teller are not that precise.

Loren Hawke

Meh what can ya do. The Destiny trailer told us the Viscount would die .

And you can't blame the Arishok for Petrice's murdering of Saemus.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 octobre 2011 - 10:50 .

[KJandrew]

Well said Ethereal!

[Mr.House]

*claps* Fantastic post Ethereal, fantastic.

[jlb524]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Personally I see her and Sten rising to the ranks of Ariqun and Arishok respectively and changing the Qun's M.O for how they take in converts and how they treat mages.

Why would you think they'd want to change that?

How could they change it?

[CrimsonZephyr]

You know, it's nice to know both the pro-Templars and pro-Mages can both agree on what utter tossers the Qunari in general are. See, hatred can bring people together!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I really don't see the fact that they are the only Qunari characters we got to know as any reason to think they will end up being the leaders of the Qunari people, much less be the ones to institute sweeping reforms of traditions that have stood for centuries..

[TEWR]

jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Personally I see her and Sten rising to the ranks of Ariqun and Arishok respectively and changing the Qun's M.O for how they take in converts and how they treat mages.

Why would you think they'd want to change that?

How could they change it?

Because Sten traveled with at least 2 mages, both female. Thus he now knows that mages aren't possessed if they're not bound.

Well... in Wynne's case she's sort-of possessed, but Sten doesn't know that since it's told to the Warden confidentially.

And Sten says his views have changed a little at the end of the game, as well as saying -- if you give him his sword and do one of his discussions -- that he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari invade. So that is -- along with the mention of Sten in the Emergent Compendium -- what makes me think he'll be important to the Qunari in the future.

[nynuwe]

Maybe she's just writing it from the perspective of an anti-Qunari Hawke? No? Darn.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I really don't see the fact that they are the only Qunari characters we got to know as any reason to think they will end up being the leaders of the Qunari people, much less be the ones to institute sweeping reforms of traditions that have stood for centuries..

I do. We know from Mary Kirby that promotions and demotions occur in the Qunari. We know that Sten and the men under his command were given a specific command by the Arishok, who is now either dead or painfully humiliated and may retire and possibly commit suicide (something we also know the Qunari do, though that was only told to us for those who are drastically injured).

Since Sten was given orders by the Arishok -- and yes I know the Arishok commands the entire Antaam -- he will probably be promoted for finding the answers to the Blight. And if the Arishok is dead then the information Sten has would probably make him the new Arishok, since he's proven himself and there would be no point to promote someone else only to have Sten fill them in on something immediately.

Then there's the Emergent Compendium reference to Sten.

The envoy lied honestly and A hornless Qunari with tightly braided hair

and remember that Qunari encompasses the followers, not the race. We've only met one hornless Kossith that followed the Qun religion and isn't dead. That's Sten.

[jlb524]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because Sten traveled with at least 2 mages, both female. Thus he now knows that mages aren't possessed if they're not bound.

Well... in Wynne's case she's sort-of possessed, but Sten doesn't know that since it's told to the Warden confidentially.

And Sten says his views have changed a little at the end of the game, as well as saying -- if you give him his sword and do one of his discussions -- that he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari invade. So that is -- along with the mention of Sten in the Emergent Compendium -- what makes me think he'll be important to the Qunari in the future.

I don't doubt Sten will be important in the future, but I'm not sure how much influence he or any other can have over the Qun and what it says about issues such as mages.

So, the Qunari bind mages just to prevent possession?  Why would they stop doing it if it works and they are certain that it works?