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[TEWR]

jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because Sten traveled with at least 2 mages, both female. Thus he now knows that mages aren't possessed if they're not bound.

Well... in Wynne's case she's sort-of possessed, but Sten doesn't know that since it's told to the Warden confidentially.

And Sten says his views have changed a little at the end of the game, as well as saying -- if you give him his sword and do one of his discussions -- that he doesn't want to be alive when the Qunari invade. So that is -- along with the mention of Sten in the Emergent Compendium -- what makes me think he'll be important to the Qunari in the future.

I don't doubt Sten will be important in the future, but I'm not sure how much influence he or any other can have over the Qun and what it says about issues such as mages.

So, the Qunari bind mages just to prevent possession?  Why would they stop doing it if it works and they are certain that it works?

Because it doesn't. The Lost Patrol shows us that a Kerataam on a patrol fell to a Qunari mage being possessed.

[jlb524]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Because it doesn't. The Lost Patrol shows us that a Kerataam on a patrol fell to a Qunari mage being possessed.

So, why would they go even easier on the mages then?

I just don't see any precedent for that changing.  To the qunari, mages = chaotic = bad.  

[Satyricon331]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Since Sten was given orders by the Arishok -- and yes I know the Arishok commands the entire Antaam -- he will probably be promoted for finding the answers to the Blight.

This point is why I hesitate to agree with you here.  In nearly all of my playthroughs, I left him in his cage since I couldn't see the rationale for recruiting some profoundly mentally unstable child-killer (since that's what you knew of him at the time, at least).  If Bioware gives him an important role, then either they'll retcon my decision, or they'll contrive some ridiculous backstory about how he rose to prominence despite not traveling w/ the warden (even though they earlier said he'd die in his cage).  I mean, maybe they are just that arrogant, but they've said over and over again how they take our feedback seriously and after all the Leliana flack they received it'd be surprising if they made the same heavy-handed retcon/almost-retcon they did with Leliana or Anders.

~~~~~
As for the OP, it was a fun read... but I think Bioware's writers are much bigger fans of the battle cattle Qunari than you are 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The issue of mages being outside of a Kerataam and not being possessed isn't really the point. They are at risk of being possessed. Ketojen killed himself because the risk was too great according to the Qunari teachings. Sten agrees with this sentient in the game. He justifies this treatment on mages at the Circle tower by saying it was "Not unusual enough." The Qunari treatment of mages is all about eliminating any possible risk. Remember the story he told about the Ashkari who was stung by a bee? The principle is the same. I also don't think that that one line from the Black Emporium nessecarily confirms "our" Sten is always alive and a major player in the future. But even if he is, that doesn't make him an Arishok later on.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:36 .

[TEWR]

Satyricon331 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Since Sten was given orders by the Arishok -- and yes I know the Arishok commands the entire Antaam -- he will probably be promoted for finding the answers to the Blight.

This point is why I hesitate to agree with you here.  In nearly all of my playthroughs, I left him in his cage since I couldn't see the rationale for recruiting some profoundly mentally unstable child-killer (since that's what you knew of him at the time, at least).  If Bioware gives him an important role, then either they'll retcon my decision, or they'll contrive some ridiculous backstory about how he rose to prominence despite not traveling w/ the warden (even though they earlier said he'd die in his cage).  I mean, maybe they are just that arrogant, but they've said over and over again how they take our feedback seriously and after all the Leliana flack they received it'd be surprising if they made the same heavy-handed retcon/almost-retcon they did with Leliana or Anders.

You left him in the cage. That doesn't mean he died. That doesn't mean the Chantry didn't offer him a chance to redeem himself by defending them against the Darkspawn, since he says he'd prefer to die against the Darkspawn. Or maybe another refugee asked him to help. The wisdom that was "There are other ways to redeem yourself" isn't something that only the Warden can think of.

I don't recall it ever being said he died in the cage. The Warden cannot go back and find the corpse of a Qunari in a cage.

There are also other ways for him to learn about the Blight. There are scholars and books, and fighting the Darkspawn head-on isn't the only way to learn about it. He could do research doing that one year and possibly fight roving Darkspawn bands, and maybe travel to a Grey Warden base in Orlais and talk to them. Or just read reports by Grey Wardens.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The issue of mages being outside of a Kerataam and not being possessed isn't really the point. They are at risk of being possessed. Ketojen killed himself because the risk was too great according to the Qunari teachings. Sten agrees with this sentient in the game. He justifies this treatment on mages at the Circle tower by saying it was "Not unusual enough." The Qunari treatment of mages is all about eliminating any possible risk. Remember the story he told about the Ashkari who was stung by a bee? The principle is the same. I also don't think that that one line from the Black Emporium nessecarily confirms "our" Sten is always alive and a major player in the future. But even if he is, that doesn't make him an Arishok later on.

I just think that his time with Morrigan and Wynne will have changed his outlook on mages will have changed, especially if the Warden was a mage.

And it does. How many hornless Kossith have we met that weren't Tal-Vashoth and were sent as envoys? One. And that was Sten.

jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Because it doesn't. The Lost Patrol shows us that a Kerataam on a patrol fell to a Qunari mage being possessed.

So, why would they go even easier on the mages then?

I just don't see any precedent for that changing.  To the qunari, mages = chaotic = bad.  

They don't view mages as chaotic. They view magic as chaotic and see mages as being unfortunate victims to that chaos. There is a difference between seeing mages as chaotic and seeing the idea of magic as chaotic. But the Qunari don't realize that nature is by its very nature chaotic (something Morrigan echoes), and that it isn't restricted to mages.

I wonder if I could pass for a Qunari. You know, if I wasn't a Dwarf who believes in the Paragons and Ancestors but isn't a traditionalist dwarf. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:10 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Satyricon331: The thing is, in a "living" world - the player is only one aspect of importance. Suggesting that Sten can only matter if he matters to the Warden creates less of a living world - and more of a static one of player self-importance (not a bad thing - but the two cannot be the same)

That being said - as Ethereal Writer states - he could have escaped after you left. To be honest - I wonder if he could not always have smashed the cage to slag and simply walked away.

[TEWR]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Satyricon331: The thing is, in a "living" world - the player is only one aspect of importance. Suggesting that Sten can only matter if he matters to the Warden creates less of a living world - and more of a static one of player self-importance (not a bad thing - but the two cannot be the same)

That being said - as Ethereal Writer states - he could have escaped after you left. To be honest - I wonder if he could not always have smashed the cage to slag and simply walked away.

Qunari teeth can bite through leather, wood, even metal given time. Which reminds me, I may try to nuzzle.--- Sten in banter with Morrigan

It would be awesome if he actually did that despite Mary Kirby's post saying he was just messing with her. Though she could've just meant that he was just using a fact about Qunari teeth to get inside her head and make her panic, which would still be messing with her.

[Satyricon331]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You left him in the cage. That doesn't mean he died. That doesn't mean the Chantry didn't offer him a chance to redeem himself by defending them against the Darkspawn, since he says he'd prefer to die against the Darkspawn. Or maybe another refugee asked him to help. The wisdom that was "There are other ways to redeem yourself" isn't something that only the Warden can think of.

I don't recall it ever being said he died in the cage. The Warden cannot go back and find the corpse of a Qunari in a cage.

There are also other ways for him to learn about the Blight. There are scholars and books, and fighting the Darkspawn head-on isn't the only way to learn about it. He could do research doing that one year and possibly fight roving Darkspawn bands, and maybe travel to a Grey Warden base in Orlais and talk to them. Or just read reports by Grey Wardens.

Yes, I acknowledged the possibility they could contrive a backstory for his importance.  Nonetheless it seems an unlikely move for Bioware since they've gone down that road several times before to such criticism.  Or maybe that's the reason it is likely after all - they've gone down that road and now it's a familiar storytelling device for them?  I'd like to give them more credit than that. 

Medhia Nox wrote...
@Satyricon331: The thing is, in a "living" world - the player is only one aspect of importance. Suggesting that Sten can only matter if he matters to the Warden creates less of a living world - and more of a static one of player self-importance (not a bad thing - but the two cannot be the same) 

That being said - as Ethereal Writer states - he could have escaped after you left. To be honest - I wonder if he could not always have smashed the cage to slag and simply walked away. 

The "living world" issue is exactly the issue behind having a single outcome to a plotline regardless of what happens within that plotline.  If they wanted to make him important in two different ways, depending on what his experience was in Lothering, then that sounds good to me.  But the static-world problem is exactly the one I'm raising - events being static regardless of what came before.  It's not an issue of player agency per se, as you're arguing.

[TEWR]

The "living world" issue is exactly the issue behind having a single outcome to a plotline regardless of what happens within that plotline. If they wanted to make him important in two different ways, depending on what his experience was in Lothering, then that sounds good to me. But the static-world problem is exactly the one I'm raising - events being static regardless of what came before. It's not an issue of player agency per se, as you're arguing.

I'll address your first point on my post in a minute, but I want to get this right now. What if he was important in the same way but had different dialogue to reflect on having two different personas? Like if you take him with you he acts one way, but if you leave him in Lothering he acts another? But he'll always be the Arishok. His dialogue will just be different.

Yes, I acknowledged the possibility they could contrive a backstory for his importance.  Nonetheless it seems an unlikely move for Bioware since they've gone down that road several times before to such criticism.  Or maybe that's the reason it is likely after all - they've gone down that road and now it's a familiar storytelling device for them?  I'd like to give them more credit than that. 

I think people need to understand that the choice was to not take Sten with you. However, since the Warden can't confirm he died, the choice and the consequence was just not taking him and not having an ally against the Blight. It would be a realistic and logical explanation. Much better than Bioware's lack of hinting at Leliana being important in DAO.

Though to be honest, I can't see why a person wouldn't recruit them if they also buy into the Warden mantra of recruiting everyone from every walk of life: kings and commoners, wilders and soldiers, thieves and criminals, etc.

If they don't buy into it, that's another matter.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:44 .

[naledgeborn]

Not all mages under the Qun are bound. Some serve as Ben-Hassrath. So leniency is possible. And I'm with Ethereal. Mostly cause I like Tallis and the Sten. And I honestly think the Sten is an atypical Qunari and if promoted to Arishok would bring in sweeping changes by Qunari standards.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Sten's Codex entry says he "probably died" if you leave him in the cage. Since the village hadn't even been evacuated yet, I doubt very much anyone would specifically have bothered to free a hated child murderer who had been specifically condemned to die in that cage in the first place. It is a situation that is less of a stretch than Leliana being alive though, to be fair. But just because we haven't met other hornless Sten doesn't mean that there aren't any. For all we know it could just be an easter egg reference that doesn't amount to anything.

I don't recall Sten ever telling Morrigan or Wynne that he's realized that the Qunari practice of leashing Saarebas is wrong, he's always known that bas treat their mages differently. The fact that neither Wynne nor Morrigan are possessed shouldn't change his opinion that mages CAN be possessed.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Sten's Codex entry says he "probably died" if you leave him in the cage. Since the village hadn't even been evacuated yet, I doubt very much anyone would specifically have bothered to free a hated child murderer who had been specifically condemned to die in that cage in the first place. It is a situation that is less of a stretch than Leliana being alive though, to be fair. But just because we haven't met other hornless Sten doesn't mean that there aren't any. For all we know it could just be an easter egg reference that doesn't amount to anything.

I don't recall Sten ever telling Morrigan or Wynne that he's realized that the Qunari practice of leashing Saarebas is wrong, he's always known that bas treat their mages differently. The fact that neither Wynne nor Morrigan are possessed shouldn't change his opinion that mages CAN be possessed.

"Probably died" being the key words there. It was not set in stone that he died.

And by Qunari belief, unbound mages almost certainly become possessed (though there are unbound mages in the Ben-Hassrath, but they're watched very carefully). Morrigan and Wynne are testament that this isn't the case. At least as far as Sten knows since he doesn't know she's possessed. But even if he does, she retained her selfhood when Qunari also believe that a possessed mage loses their selfhood.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:50 .

[Satyricon331]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I'll address your first point on my post in a minute, but I want to get this right now. What if he was important in the same way but had different dialogue to reflect on having two different personas? Like if you take him with you he acts one way, but if you leave him in Lothering he acts another? But he'll always be the Arishok. His dialogue will just be different.

Like how Leliana's dialogue changes?  I just find it fatiguing that events that ex ante seem very likely significant to a character's life turn out not to have had much of an impact on that person at all.  It's clear other people are fine with it - and I'm certainly not saying everyone needs to share my preferences over narrative devices.  But I see the complaints even with MOTA that show there are other people who find it tiring that their decisions don't matter.  Bioware does have other opportunities to make decisions matter, of course, but, again, it'd be surprising they'd pull out the same device they have before despite the criticism it's received.  I mean, at this point, you'd think they'd avoid it just to keep the storytelling fresh.

I think people need to understand that the choice was to not take Sten with you. However, since the Warden can't confirm he died, the choice and the consequence was just not taking him and not having an ally against the Blight. It would be a realistic and logical explanation. Much better than Bioware's lack of hinting at Leliana being important in DAO.

Though to be honest, I can't see why a person wouldn't recruit them if they also buy into the Warden mantra of recruiting everyone from every walk of life: kings and commoners, wilders and soldiers, thieves and criminals, etc.

If they don't buy into it, that's another matter.

Yes, thank you, I understand the choice was to take him with you or not. 

As for your second point, I think it's a question of ex ante optimality - if you know he can lose it and attack children, then on the information you have it's reasonable to consider he wouldn't be a reliable combat ally.  (Just to be clear again, I'm not saying everyone has to evaluate it that way.)  But as Duncan makes clear, they only recruit people they think can help their cause - they don't just recruit out of charity.

edit: clarity and tone

Modifié par Satyricon331, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:58 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Qunari belief is that the risk of freeing mages is too great, whether they are possessed or not. It just takes one to start a potential catastrophe like the Circle tower incident.

Also the Warden mantra was about recruiting people into the ranks of the Grey Wardens, thereby giving more people the chance to kill an archdemon, whoever they are. He was just a guy who I could have asked to help me fight. I didn't need him. He murdered 3 entire families for no reason. I thought he deserved to die. He thought he deserved to die. We agreed to agree and I went on my way.

[K_Tabris]

TL;DR

[TEWR]

Satyricon331 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I'll address your first point on my post in a minute, but I want to get this right now. What if he was important in the same way but had different dialogue to reflect on having two different personas? Like if you take him with you he acts one way, but if you leave him in Lothering he acts another? But he'll always be the Arishok. His dialogue will just be different.

Like how Leliana's dialogue changes?  I just find it fatiguing that events that ex ante seem very likely significant to a character's life turn out not to have had much of an impact on that person at all.  It's clear other people are fine with it - and I'm certainly not saying everyone needs to share my preferences over narrative devices.  But I see the complaints even with MOTA that there are other people who find it tiring that their decisions don't matter.  Bioware does have other opportunities to make decisions matter, of course, but, again, it'd be surprising they'd pull out the same device they have before despite the criticism it's received.  I mean, at this point, you'd think they'd avoid it just to keep the storytelling fresh.

to be fair we met her for all of two minutes. I sincerely hope Bioware gives her a different personality depending on if she's alive or "dead".

And MotA had plenty of choices actually. Bioware just didn't really execute the final choice as well as they should've if they wanted Tallis to leave with the scroll in hand. You can decide whether Isabela gets some crewmembers for her ship or has a very powerful dagger (Dagger of the Four Winds has 4 rune slots and deals electricity damage).

I've only played MotA twice but that's the only one I've seen that should have an impact in the future, though like DAII it's a choice on the companions. But Hawke can also choose whether to knock out a Duke's son, steal from him without harming him, or knock him out cold with a drug. He can also choose whether Leopold should be made sick.

Still, I don't think Bioware's doing most of their choices justice like they should be.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:17 .

[Satyricon331]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
to be fair we met her for all of two minutes. I sincerely hope Bioware gives her a different personality depending on if she's alive or "alive".

And MotA had plenty of choices actually. Bioware just didn't really execute the final choice as well as they should've if they wanted Tallis to leave with the scroll in hand. You can decide whether Isabela gets some crewmembers for her ship or has a very powerful dagger (Dagger of the Four Winds has 4 rune slots and deals electricity damage).

I've only played MotA twice but that's the only one I've seen that should have an impact in the future, though like DAII it's a choice on the companions. But Hawke can also choose whether to knock out a Duke's son, steal from him without harming him, or knock him out cold with a drug. He can also choose whether Leopold should be made sick.

Still, I don't think Bioware's doing most of their choices justice like they should be.

I haven't played MOTA at all, so I didn't mean to comment on its choices; I was just presenting evidence I'm not alone in that view.  We agree on that last sentence at least :happy:

Modifié par Satyricon331, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:18 .

[jlb524]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They don't view mages as chaotic. They view magic as chaotic and see mages as being unfortunate victims to that chaos. 

But, by extension the mage should be seen as wielding chaos...which is bad.  That's why they fear mages and chain them up like they do.

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've only played MotA twice but that's the only one I've seen that should have an impact in the future, though like DAII it's a choice on the companions.

Aveline sidequest, while not having any choice, does have a lot of possible implications.

[TEWR]

Satyricon331 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
to be fair we met her for all of two minutes. I sincerely hope Bioware gives her a different personality depending on if she's alive or "alive".

And MotA had plenty of choices actually. Bioware just didn't really execute the final choice as well as they should've if they wanted Tallis to leave with the scroll in hand. You can decide whether Isabela gets some crewmembers for her ship or has a very powerful dagger (Dagger of the Four Winds has 4 rune slots and deals electricity damage).

I've only played MotA twice but that's the only one I've seen that should have an impact in the future, though like DAII it's a choice on the companions. But Hawke can also choose whether to knock out a Duke's son, steal from him without harming him, or knock him out cold with a drug. He can also choose whether Leopold should be made sick.

Still, I don't think Bioware's doing most of their choices justice like they should be.

I haven't played MOTA at all, so I didn't mean to comment on its choices; I was just presenting evidence I'm not alone in that view.  We agree on that last sentence at least :happy:

Ah I didn't realize you hadn't played it yet. Personally I found MotA to be well worth it except for the ending if someone roleplays their Hawke a certain way. But other than that it was great.

and yea, I just think they need to really work on making choices matter. Truthfully, I think they should hire from the forums (partially due to me wanting to work at Bioware I'll admit ).

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They don't view mages as chaotic. They view magic as chaotic and see mages as being unfortunate victims to that chaos. 

But, by extension the mage should be seen as wielding chaos...which is bad.  That's why they fear mages and chain them up like they do.

Yet a mage can join the Bas-Hassrath and have more purpose with al ittle more freedom. What can a mage of the Chantry hope for? Nothing.

[Mr.House]

Rojahar wrote...

I wanted to confront Tallis and actually demand an answer about the Qunari FORCING their religion on others. She acts like they're some persecuted religion who just wants to keep peacefully to themselves, when it's the Qunari who are constantly invading and attacking places in Thedas, conquering them and forcing them into the Qun, breaking up families and forcing breedings, etc. It's like if the door to door missionaries didn't even bother knocking or talking, but just broke in killing, raping, and pillaging.

I have no sympathy for the Qunari, but then again, I didn't understand what my Hawke's motivation was for going along with Tallis in the first place. Why would I want to steal some jewel for some random elf? What do I get out this, and what if I'm some lawful aligned warrior? Maybe I missed something, so enlighten me if I did.

The Chantry also forces there religion, it's only that at least with the Qunari they don't bs you and play you like a fiddle while feeding you half truths and fake stories.

[TEWR]

You're a Fereldan who can deal a heavy blow to Orlesian pride. Why wouldn't you want to steal from an Orlesian, especially if they're planning on invading your former homeland (again)?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:52 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Mr.House wrote...

Rojahar wrote...

I wanted to confront Tallis and actually demand an answer about the Qunari FORCING their religion on others. She acts like they're some persecuted religion who just wants to keep peacefully to themselves, when it's the Qunari who are constantly invading and attacking places in Thedas, conquering them and forcing them into the Qun, breaking up families and forcing breedings, etc. It's like if the door to door missionaries didn't even bother knocking or talking, but just broke in killing, raping, and pillaging.

I have no sympathy for the Qunari, but then again, I didn't understand what my Hawke's motivation was for going along with Tallis in the first place. Why would I want to steal some jewel for some random elf? What do I get out this, and what if I'm some lawful aligned warrior? Maybe I missed something, so enlighten me if I did.

The Chantry also forces there religion, it's only that at least with the Qunari they don't bs you and play you like a fiddle while feeding you half truths and fake stories.

Yeah, if you say no, they torture you. If you still say no, they mind-rape you and send you to work to death in mines.

Charming people.

EDIT: The minute it became about sticking it to the Qunari, Orlais was small time. Who cares about the snooty noblemen when there are Viddethari to slaughter?

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:54 .