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[Quill74Pen]

Everyone:

She betrayed my latest noble character — Nova — at the Landsmeet.

This after Nova rescued her from Howe's imprisonment, then fought a battle to see to her safe escape from Howe's estate (Nova didn't tell Ser Cauthrien that that anonymous armored person with her was Queen Anora). Anora then wanted Nova's support, but Nova wasn't giving it after seeing how Howe and Loghain so easily sidelined her. Anora then said she'd support Alistair at the Landsmeet, even though Nova could tell she wasn't enthusiastic about it.

The final insult, though, was Anora proclaiming that Nova was spreading lies about Loghain, et al. This, despite the fact that Nova had documents proving Loghain's knowledge of and involvement in the elven slave trade. This, despite the fact that Nova had rescued several imprisoned nobles and an addled templar from Howe's dungeons (and had informed their loved ones of the situation at hand).

Talk about a power-hungry woman desperate to retain control. Her "me, me, ME!" attitude led to a battle at the Landsmeet that saw Loghain defeated and executed by Nova, and led to Anora's own imprisonment.

Nova had been suspicious of Anora after Loghain's betrayal at the Battle of Ostagar. But, she didn't want to give in, hence her rescue of Anora from Howe without exposing her to possible execution at Howe's (and possibly, her father's) hands.

So, now, Alistair is king — and Nova is queen. And the final battle against the hated darkspawn and their Archdemon leader is under way!

Quill74Pen

P.S. This was the first time I'd ever triggered events so that a fight broke out at the Landsmeet. Is there a way to put a female Grey Warden as Alistair's queen without the fight?

[BlackEmperor]

I know. She's just all kinds of delightful.

There is indeed a way to put a female human noble on the throne with Alistair without a fight. I just did that on my most recent playthrough. First, you need to make sure you get every noble's vote that you possibly can. This includes freeing Vaughn from Howe's estate (you can talk him into giving you money as well, either way) and doing all the assignments from the Antivan Crows to make sure a certain anonymous noble speaks up during the Landsmeet for helping you out with a personal matter. (And of course, talking to all the nobles in the Gnawed Noble Tavern, completing the related quests, etc.)

Then you have to make the strongest arguments possible during the Landsmeet banter. I've read several conflicting reports as to which ones these are, but the ones that worked for me were:
--Starting with, "The Blight is the threat here, not Orlais."
--Following up with the accusation of Howe's imprisonment and torture of other nobles
--Concluding with the always popular accusation of Loghain rescuing a blood mage and interfering with a templar's sacred duty (Seeing the Revered Mother dress-down Loghain is probably the only time I was, momentarily, a sincere Chantry supporter)

There may very well be other combinations that work, but trust me, I tried most of them. It was third time's the charm by the time I stumbled onto this combination.

It might feel a little forced from an RP-perspective to go out of your way to do the Landsmeet in this particular way, but the delight in getting to see Anora come out, denounce you with such passion, and then watch as all the nobles vote her down anyway... is too delicious for words.

Modifié par BlackEmperor, 13 octobre 2011 - 06:51 .

[Quill74Pen]

Heck, I wasn't aware that a noble's support was tied to doing tasks for the Antivan Crows. Huh. I usually don't do anything for the Crows — well, except to execute their controller in Denerim — because Loghain employed them in a (failed) attempt to kill me.

Yeah, that part might be difficult from an RP perspective, at least from most of the Origins stories. It might work, though, for a city elf or both dwarven origins. Those characters, I think, might be more used to a rough-and-tumble sort of life where you cannot necessarly trust the fellow next to you.

Quill74Pen

[Wulfram]

Quill74Pen wrote...
Is there a way to put a female Grey Warden as Alistair's queen without the fight?

Just smile and nod when she asks for your support, and then proclaim yourself Queen anyway.

[Zy-El]

Wulfram wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...
Is there a way to put a female Grey Warden as Alistair's queen without the fight?

Just smile and nod when she asks for your support, and then proclaim yourself Queen anyway.

This only works if your Warden is a Human noble (ie Warrior or Rogue).

[BlackEmperor]

I played a pragmatist Cousland, who knew that as a ruler of Fereldan the Crows would be far more useful as allies instead of enemies. When it comes to the Crows, you know where you stand. Anora--not so much.

I could see where it might seem more fitting from the perspective of a dwarf commoner or city elf, but then again, Arl Howe was an old friend of your father's, and he was willing to slaughter your entire family. How do you trust anyone after that?

If you're a dwarf commoner or city elf though, you're not up for the queen/kingship either, so it'd probably be just as well to lie to Anora and then change your mind as Wulfram suggested.

[Addai]

Anora's a politician, and pretty skilled at that job. It's what she was raised to do from day one and she honestly believes that she's the best one for the job and thus for the country in a time of war and great instability, certainly in comparison to an unknown nobody (meaning Alistair). And, she's got a point. Naturally it's not great to be rolled on and manipulated, unless you're able to see that cunning as a strength and admire it.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:30 .

[Corker]

Zy-El wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...
Is there a way to put a female Grey Warden as Alistair's queen without the fight?

Just smile and nod when she asks for your support, and then proclaim yourself Queen anyway.

This only works if your Warden is a Human noble (ie Warrior or Rogue).

And if you're willing to employ the same dirty tricks OP is flogging Anora for. 

[Mike3207]

She's the best person for the job and she makes a strong case for you supporting her.I'd consider Alistair, but he never comes up with a legitimate reason why you should make him King.

[BlackEmperor]

Addai67 wrote...

Anora's a politician, and pretty skilled at that job. It's what she was raised to do from day one and she honestly believes that she's the best one for the job and thus for the country in a time of war and great instability, certainly in comparison to an unknown nobody (meaning Alistair). And, she's got a point. Naturally it's not great to be rolled on and manipulated, unless you're able to see that cunning as a strength and admire it.

I do admire it. I'm also greatly annoyed by it.

And while you make a strong point in the case of Alistair, a pc Cousland at this point in the game is at least an equally strong candidate as Anora. After all, you've raised an army, uniting the various races of Fereldan under one banner. You've held together a party of misfits (a noob of a templar, a drunk, an apostate mage, a senior citizen possesed by a Fade spirit, a Qunari that was nearly starved to death, an Antivan assassin, and a Chantry sister--what are the Vegas odds that these people would ever work together, let alone help save a nation?)  and have made them into an elite fighting force. You've braved the Deep Roads to find a Paragon and traveled to the peaks of the Frostback Mountains to find the legendary Urn of Sacred Ashes. You've slain scores of darkspawn and demons. You've developed a knack for diplomacy when it suits you and the willingness to crack skulls when that sort of thing is called for.

In the meantime, Anora has... lost complete control over the most senior general of her armies, watched helplessly as the nation fell into civil war, and finally managed to get herself captured by Arl Howe. (Did she ever have a plan of getting out of that besides sitting tight and waiting for someone to come rescue her? What was the backup plan, exactly?)

She is indeed a skilled politician, but her record up until the Landsmeet has not exactly inspired confidence--in me, anyway.

[GSSAGE7]

Anora is power hungry? Really? Next you'll tell me that Isabella likes sex, and Oghren is a fan of drinking.
Really though, even if you do agree to support her, if you say that Loghain has to die, she'll still turn on you. God, that was a shock the first time.

[Mike3207]

I actually think she gets captured by Howe on purpose, then sends her maid to recruit you to free her. No way Eamon or the Warden can refuse to not rescue her. I actually think it's good plan- a good chance for Howe to die, and then if the Warden survives he ends up in Fort Drakon. The backup plan was if the Warden is strong and smart enough to survive that trap, she forms an alliance with him/her.

I admit she doesn't have much military skill or support-that's why she ends up in a alliance with the Warden.

[Quill74Pen]

BlackEmperor wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Anora's a politician, and pretty skilled at that job. It's what she was raised to do from day one and she honestly believes that she's the best one for the job and thus for the country in a time of war and great instability, certainly in comparison to an unknown nobody (meaning Alistair). And, she's got a point. Naturally it's not great to be rolled on and manipulated, unless you're able to see that cunning as a strength and admire it.

I do admire it. I'm also greatly annoyed by it.

And while you make a strong point in the case of Alistair, a pc Cousland at this point in the game is at least an equally strong candidate as Anora. After all, you've raised an army, uniting the various races of Fereldan under one banner. You've held together a party of misfits (a noob of a templar, a drunk, an apostate mage, a senior citizen possesed by a Fade spirit, a Qunari that was nearly starved to death, an Antivan assassin, and a Chantry sister--what are the Vegas odds that these people would ever work together, let alone help save a nation?)  and have made them into an elite fighting force. You've braved the Deep Roads to find a Paragon and traveled to the peaks of the Frostback Mountains to find the legendary Urn of Sacred Ashes. You've slain scores of darkspawn and demons. You've developed a knack for diplomacy when it suits you and the willingness to crack skulls when that sort of thing is called for.

In the meantime, Anora has... lost complete control over the most senior general of her armies, watched helplessly as the nation fell into civil war, and finally managed to get herself captured by Arl Howe. (Did she ever have a plan of getting out of that besides sitting tight and waiting for someone to come rescue her? What was the backup plan, exactly?)

She is indeed a skilled politician, but her record up until the Landsmeet has not exactly inspired confidence--in me, anyway.

Your post was hilarious in its entirety, especially the bolded part. I agree with it 100 percent.

Quill74Pen

[Quill74Pen]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Anora is power hungry? Really? Next you'll tell me that Isabella likes sex, and Oghren is a fan of drinking.
Really though, even if you do agree to support her, if you say that Loghain has to die, she'll still turn on you. God, that was a shock the first time.

I like Isabella. She's usually my character's favor companion/lover in Dragon Age 2.

My characters have killed Loghain in the past, and Anora hasn't turned on them if, beforehand, they had her and Alistair agree to a marriage of political convenience.

Quill74Pen

[Quill74Pen]

Wulfram wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...
Is there a way to put a female Grey Warden as Alistair's queen without the fight?

Just smile and nod when she asks for your support, and then proclaim yourself Queen anyway.

I thought about that, but one of the Wikis I read indicated that you *couldn't* agree to something like that and still have the option to have your character as Alistair's queen. Either the Wiki is wrong, or I misread it. I'm leaning toward the latter.

Quill74Pen

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I don't think she's power hungry. She certainly doesn't want to be deposed, however, not after she's been practically running the country and hasn't done anything wrong. She knows she has no control over Loghain who, let's face it, is a powerful man, hero of the people, and has the army behind him. She knows Loghain is making decisions she doesn't agree with, but can't stop him.

She goes to the Warden. So long as she gets to keep her position at court and get recognised for the work she's been doing anyway, she'll support you all the way. Against her own father. If it turns out the Warden isn't going to support her, of course she'll betray you. You're kicking her out of her home, stripping her of her position, and what has she done to deserve that? That's not being power hungry; that's simply trying to keep what's hers.

Usurping her position and piggybacking on Alistair's royal claim to become queen? Now that's power hungry. You don't ask him about it beforehand, nor do you propose. You announce it before everyone.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 14 octobre 2011 - 07:54 .

[Wulfram]

Corker wrote...

And if you're willing to employ the same dirty tricks OP is flogging Anora for. 

Ah, but you're only doing it because Anora is sneaky backstabber who can't be trusted.  Totally different :innocent:

[tmp7704]

Quill74Pen wrote...

Everyone:

She betrayed my latest noble character — Nova — at the Landsmeet.

(..)

Talk about a power-hungry woman desperate to retain control. Her "me, me, ME!" attitude led to a battle at the Landsmeet that saw Loghain defeated and executed by Nova, and led to Anora's own imprisonment.

If i remember the dialogue tree/scripting for that bit right, the only way to make Anora "betray" you is by creating a situation where she knows (from what you explicitly tell her while in Eamon's mansion) that you'll insist on punishing Loghain afterwards -- that's what sets the 'betray at landsmeet" plot flag.

So essentially, she does it only in situation where she thinks her father is going to be executed as the outcome, trying to prevent it. Power hungry "me me me" attitude, indeed.

[Wulfram]

Anora will only speak against Loghain if she is promised the Warden's support for the throne. The betrayal flags are only there for the special case where the Warden has promised her support but also told her that Loghain must die.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:22 .

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

Anora will only speak against Loghain if she is promised the Warden's support for the throne.

She isn't an idiot and realizes what is going to happen to Loghain if instead the throne is handed to Alistair (as Alistair promptly demonstrates if given a chance) So yeah, she fights that too.

I wouldn't consider the situation where Anora isn't promised support and consequently doesn't provide hers a betrayal, though.

Modifié par tmp7704, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:57 .

[Wulfram]

tmp7704 wrote...

I wouldn't consider the situation where Anora isn't promised support and consequently doesn't provide hers a betrayal, though.

She goes from saying to you that her father is mad and paranoid, may kill her and must be stopped, to giving Loghain her full endorsement, accusing you of slandering him and plotting to put an "imposter" on the throne.  I'm not sure how that can be seen as anything other than a betrayal.

If the question of who the Warden supports is left ambiguous, she'll side with Loghain.  If the question of her father's fate is left ambiguous, then she'll still bring him down

[ejoslin]

Quill74Pen wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Quill74Pen wrote...
Is there a way to put a female Grey Warden as Alistair's queen without the fight?

Just smile and nod when she asks for your support, and then proclaim yourself Queen anyway.

I thought about that, but one of the Wikis I read indicated that you *couldn't* agree to something like that and still have the option to have your character as Alistair's queen. Either the Wiki is wrong, or I misread it. I'm leaning toward the latter.

Quill74Pen

The wiki is wrong if it says that.  I've corrented many, many things in the wiki, however, so it wouldn't surprise me if it said that.\\

Edit: Another way to get Anora to betray you is to tell her you won't support her and actually, she will also betray you if you don't talk to her at all.  I'd have to go over the dlg and script again, but I'm almost positive that it's a defined flag that is used to determine whether she betrays the warden or not and that all those scenarios are covered.

But most importantly, I don't think one has to like Anora to think she'd be a better ruler than Alistair. 

Another edit: Alistair, to me, proved what kind of leader he'd be when he put the warden, who had been a gray warden for mere hours before the battle of Ostegar, in charge.  He also on several occasions let his emotions get the better of him and cloud his judgement.  

My Cousland pcs, however, have always become queen in a political marriage because I think in truth the warden is the best ruler of the three.  Not that it apparently matters in subsequent games.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:26 .

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

She goes from saying to you that her father is mad and paranoid, may kill her and must be stopped

Stopped, yes. Executed, no. Anora's idea of stopping her father is to put in charge someone else, but not someone who would then seek revenge on Loghain. And out of two available candidates there's only one who matches that.

As for her stories about getting possibly killed... like Loghain says, she has certain knack for melodramatics. It's not spelt out and not exactly a trait that'd fit a cutboard cutout sort of character (when taking into account her other traits) so i imagine some players can fail to consider such possibility.

[GSSAGE7]

Quill74Pen wrote...

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Anora is power hungry? Really? Next you'll tell me that Isabella likes sex, and Oghren is a fan of drinking.
Really though, even if you do agree to support her, if you say that Loghain has to die, she'll still turn on you. God, that was a shock the first time.

I like Isabella. She's usually my character's favor companion/lover in Dragon Age 2.

My characters have killed Loghain in the past, and Anora hasn't turned on them if, beforehand, they had her and Alistair agree to a marriage of political convenience.

Quill74Pen

Yeah, but if you tell her that you want to kill him (at Eamon's place), she'll betray you at the Landsmeet.