Just wanted to clarify, Augustus commanded politically via his near total control over the military.
Wow. Anora Really is Hungry for Power (Spoilers Within)
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Quill74Pen
, oct. 13 2011 06:15
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#252
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 06:45
Addai
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One reason why he was a good emperor, despite not being a fighter himself.
Really I don't think it's fair to judge Anora or Alistair on this criterion, because it is totally dependent on the player's game. Depending on player choices, either Alistair or Anora can come out looking like they have been successful militarily and politically. Anora probably has an edge in that she comes "pre-hardened," but it's quite right that she's got the disadvantage of having demonstrably failed as a ruler on many points, and after Cailan's death you can't blame it on him. She and Alistair are pretty much equal, and the writers did a good job of setting up the story that way.
Really I don't think it's fair to judge Anora or Alistair on this criterion, because it is totally dependent on the player's game. Depending on player choices, either Alistair or Anora can come out looking like they have been successful militarily and politically. Anora probably has an edge in that she comes "pre-hardened," but it's quite right that she's got the disadvantage of having demonstrably failed as a ruler on many points, and after Cailan's death you can't blame it on him. She and Alistair are pretty much equal, and the writers did a good job of setting up the story that way.
#253
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 06:53
KnightofPhoenix
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I don't think they are equal (at all actually), but I agree that Anora does not come off in the best light. She's no Bhelen, but I see her as the best available option. Much better with an efficient prince consort.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 octobre 2011 - 06:53 .
#254
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 10:22
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I think it's kind of . . . HHIiiiiiiiLLLLLLLlllarious that basically the same group of people moves from thread to thread taking total control. Then they end up back on the Main Loghain thread.
I enjoy the reading - just commenting on this trend. It's fun and funny to me.
I enjoy the reading - just commenting on this trend. It's fun and funny to me.
#255
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:11
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KoP and I are fighting a war of attrition. lol
#256
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:13
KnightofPhoenix
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I think it reached the point of being a cold war, when this is just the normal state of things 
#257
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:17
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Toolset says you're wrong though...Persephone wrote...
ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
Yes I'm sure King Maric is positively jumping joy and beaming with happiness over his son's death.Persephone wrote...
ShimmeringDjinn wrote...
PS. Loghain commited treason when he left the King to die.
King Maric begs to differ.
Cailan has no one to blame but himself.
Read "The Stolen Throne" before making ridiculous assumptions, alright?
#258
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:24
Bleachrude
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Actually, if Loghain *KNEW* that grey wardens were essential in stopping the archdemon, doesn't this mean that the entire freaking army is worth less than the grey wardens?
I always wonder how the plan would change if that essential fact was known (and actually believed) to non grey wardens...
EDIT As an aside, isn't executing alistair metagaming? You don't know if Loghain would survive the joining and you go from three wardens (riordan, alistair and the warden_ to potentially two.
As well, why the hell does Riordan not say or do anything when Alistair gets carted off to be executed? Hello, you just lost one warden there?
I always wonder how the plan would change if that essential fact was known (and actually believed) to non grey wardens...
EDIT As an aside, isn't executing alistair metagaming? You don't know if Loghain would survive the joining and you go from three wardens (riordan, alistair and the warden_ to potentially two.
As well, why the hell does Riordan not say or do anything when Alistair gets carted off to be executed? Hello, you just lost one warden there?
Modifié par Bleachrude, 27 octobre 2011 - 11:26 .
#259
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:29
Joy Divison
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Persephone wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
Ah I love having her betray me and then have her lose support anyway.
Only thing that would've made that scene better would've been executing her right after her father.
It's this kind of almost fanatical hatred I will NEVER understand. Never mind that I find it to be reprehensible and sickening.
She has done nothing to deserve it. Except not rolling over to your bloodthirsty egomaniac of a Warden saying "You want to depose me? Of course! And murder my father? Ok."
A quote:
CAESAR. If one man in all the world can be found, now or forever, to know that you did wrong, that man will have either to conquer the world as I have, or be crucified by it. [The uproar in the streets again reaches them]. Do you hear? These knockers at your gate are also believers in vengeance and in stabbing. You have slain their leader: it is right that they shall slay you. If you doubt it, ask your four counsellors here. And then in the name of that right [he emphasizes the word with great scorn] shall I not slay them for murdering their Queen, and be slain in my turn by their countrymen as the invader of their fatherland? Can Rome do less then than slay these slayers, too, to shew the world how Rome avenges her sons and her honor. And so, to the end of history, murder shall breed murder, always in the name of right and honor and peace, until the gods are tired of blood and create a race that can understand. (George B. Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra)
One might characterize your feelings toward Cailan as slightly irrational...
Caesar - the guy who circumvented legal proceedings to crucify the pirates who treated him like a king
#260
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:32
KnightofPhoenix
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Bleachrude wrote...
EDIT As an aside, isn't executing alistair metagaming? You don't know if Loghain would survive the joining and you go from three wardens (riordan, alistair and the warden_ to potentially two.
Yes, because the game thinks it's impossible for me to knock him out and throw him in prison until I see if Loghain survives or not. So I'll metagame in a badly written scenario like this.
#261
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:33
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Joy Divison wrote...
Caesar - the guy who circumvented legal proceedings to crucify the pirates who treated him like a king
He's overrated in my opinion.
#262
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:37
Bleachrude
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Bleachrude wrote...
EDIT As an aside, isn't executing alistair metagaming? You don't know if Loghain would survive the joining and you go from three wardens (riordan, alistair and the warden_ to potentially two.
Yes, because the game thinks it's impossible for me to knock him out and throw him in prison until I see if Loghain survives or not. So I'll metagame in a badly written scenario like this.
But that doesn't change the fact that most likely alistair still wont work with you because you just "betrayed" him. If you believe grey wardens are essential in stopping the blight, better to take your chances with what you have then gambling for more....
If you believe grey wardens are "helpful" then yes, gambling works since you don't really "believe" the hype that grey wardens are essential to stopping the blight...
Personally, I still don't see why Loghain actually needs to be a warden...the whole reason why Riordan mentions is the exact same reason why Loghain shouldn't be in the front lines fighting with the other wardens....
#263
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:42
KnightofPhoenix
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Bleachrude wrote...
But that doesn't change the fact that most likely alistair still wont work with you because you just "betrayed" him. If you believe grey wardens are essential in stopping the blight, better to take your chances with what you have then gambling for more....
If he is that irrational and petty, then I'd rather not have him on my side in the first place, I'll gamble with Loghain who I'd find much more useful.
And I never believed in the hype anyways and I dislike the entire idea after I found out.
#264
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:52
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Bleachrude wrote...
But that doesn't change the fact that most likely alistair still wont work with you because you just "betrayed" him. If you believe grey wardens are essential in stopping the blight, better to take your chances with what you have then gambling for more....
If he is that irrational and petty, then I'd rather not have him on my side in the first place, I'll gamble with Loghain who I'd find much more useful.
And I never believed in the hype anyways and I dislike the entire idea after I found out.
Now who's being selfish:) Again, why exactly does Loghain NEED to be a warden? He can still be useful as a general which again implies "not in thick of fghting"
Personally I tend to execute Loghain not for alistair (which people wrongly think is the only reason) but because quite frankly, allowing him to live/becoming a hero JUSTIFIES his crimes and that is a VERY dangerous route to go for Ferelden IMO. Becomes impossible to argue that selling your citizens into slavery and pressganging free citizens into the army is wrong when theres a huge ass statue of the man proclaiming "he was a hero".
I always found the "reveal" to actually be satisying...ptherwise the joining has pretty much no benefits (remember, at this pt in the game, all of your non-warden companions have survived without being tainted so immunity to the taint isn't that big a benefit)
#265
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:57
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Because him becoming a Warden is the only way to spare him, blame the writers.
For an in-game reason, well it's the easiest way for my character to strip him of his title and more importantly his Ternir which he was planning to get for himself. In other words, get him out of politics, prevent his punishment that I find is a complete waste of time and please the majority of nobles by doing something technically legal (and get him out of the way for his own personal interests), while still keeping him around to be a general.
For an in-game reason, well it's the easiest way for my character to strip him of his title and more importantly his Ternir which he was planning to get for himself. In other words, get him out of politics, prevent his punishment that I find is a complete waste of time and please the majority of nobles by doing something technically legal (and get him out of the way for his own personal interests), while still keeping him around to be a general.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:00 .
#266
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 12:02
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You do have a point. That's why I prefer Loghain to remain in the shadows as just another Warden, with mine being the one remembered.Personally I tend to execute Loghain not for alistair (which people wrongly think is the only reason) but because quite frankly, allowing him to live/becoming a hero JUSTIFIES his crimes and that is a VERY dangerous route to go for Ferelden IMO. Becomes impossible to argue that selling your citizens into slavery and pressganging free citizens into the army is wrong when theres a huge ass statue of the man proclaiming "he was a hero".
#267
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 12:14
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Alistair is not exactly the best suited to be a Warden in the first place. Wardens must often make... unpleasant decisions, and he seems to lack the capacity to make such decisions for the sake of "doing the right thing." He butts in several times during the game to question your "bad" decisions, even when the decision you're making is for the best - and sparing Loghain is one of them.
It works out better IMHO to put him on the throne next to Anora, while you and Loghain go take care of business on the front lines. As the last surviving member of the Theirin bloodline, it would be wise for him not to dive head first into the Blight with everyone else (just ask good ol' King Cailan how that goes).
It works out better IMHO to put him on the throne next to Anora, while you and Loghain go take care of business on the front lines. As the last surviving member of the Theirin bloodline, it would be wise for him not to dive head first into the Blight with everyone else (just ask good ol' King Cailan how that goes).
Modifié par greengoron89, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:15 .
#268
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 12:40
Joy Divison
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Joy Divison wrote...
Caesar - the guy who circumvented legal proceedings to crucify the pirates who treated him like a king
He's overrated in my opinion.
Dying before your time is always good publicity. Caesar never had to solve the mess he created. Augustus did. Though Plutach's depiction of Ceasar's capture and ransom does deserve major props
.I do agree with you the most poltically saavy route for a Warden to take is to promise Anora nothing and have Alistair execute Loghain; it leaves open the most amount of options and directs any potential problems regarding Loghain's execution to Alistair. Some people just want to be heroes though.
#269
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 02:10
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Bleachrude wrote...
Actually, if Loghain *KNEW* that grey wardens were essential in stopping the archdemon, doesn't this mean that the entire freaking army is worth less than the grey wardens?
I always wonder how the plan would change if that essential fact was known (and actually believed) to non grey wardens...
EDIT As an aside, isn't executing alistair metagaming? You don't know if Loghain would survive the joining and you go from three wardens (riordan, alistair and the warden_ to potentially two.
As well, why the hell does Riordan not say or do anything when Alistair gets carted off to be executed? Hello, you just lost one warden there?
1) I've thought this myself. If Duncan hadn't been such a beta w his secrets and told a few high ranking members of the nobility a) this IS a Blight . . . it's not a "feeling" or a "guess", it's a power we Wardens have and
only a Warden can slay an Archdemon, it's our other power and why you need us. If Duncan had shared those things w Loghain, Cailan, Bryce then I think Loghain would not have let the Wardens be slaughtered at Ostagar. Cailan, however, may have insisted and a coup de tet would have followed as Loghain locked the kid up. So there still would've been a mess.2) Again, if you metagame a bit, Riordan's decision makes sense. What did Duncan do when Ser Jory had his seet fit and tried to leave the Wardens by force? You know Alistair would put up a fight . . . so Riordan not objecting just is another way of him executing Alistair for trying to leave the Wardens.
#270
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 02:21
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Why would anyone believe what Duncan tells them, Loghain least of all? He seemed to have made up his mind the minute he found out the Wardens had called upon the Orlesians to aid in the battle. I doubt he would've believed that the Wardens were truly the only ones who could slay the Archdemon - especially since no one other than the King (and even he was doubtful at times) believed there was even an Archdemon involved in the raid.
#271
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 02:48
Addai
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It's offered as an alternative punishment to execution. Loghain is always found "guilty" at the LM, it's just a matter of whether he gets the ignoble death or the soldier's death.Bleachrude wrote...
Now who's being selfish:) Again, why exactly does Loghain NEED to be a warden? He can still be useful as a general which again implies "not in thick of fghting"
This is never an issue, as I said- Loghain is always found guilty. Although, "press ganging"? Conscription is a fact of life and not illegal, not just for Wardens. Unpopular, certainly.Personally I tend to execute Loghain not for alistair (which people wrongly think is the only reason) but because quite frankly, allowing him to live/becoming a hero JUSTIFIES his crimes and that is a VERY dangerous route to go for Ferelden IMO. Becomes impossible to argue that selling your citizens into slavery and pressganging free citizens into the army is wrong when theres a huge ass statue of the man proclaiming "he was a hero".
#272
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 03:12
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greengoron89 wrote...
Why would anyone believe what Duncan tells them, Loghain least of all? He seemed to have made up his mind the minute he found out the Wardens had called upon the Orlesians to aid in the battle. I doubt he would've believed that the Wardens were truly the only ones who could slay the Archdemon - especially since no one other than the King (and even he was doubtful at times) believed there was even an Archdemon involved in the raid.
Why? Because sometimes forthrightness is more convincing than secrecy and legend.
Like you said, Loghain characteristically would and should flip out the minute the Wardens suggested contacting Orlais for help. But what if Duncan had called a meeting and started with, "I know there is a justifiably overwhelming distrust of Orlais. But let me explain to you why Grey Wardens are NEEDED now, and in greater numbers than we have. (insert explanation here). As Orlais is the closest country with a sizeable Warden force, I urge you to allow them in to them to come to Fereldan's aid now before things get out of hand." Loghain may still be distrustful, but he'd at least have the knowledge he needs to consider and make an informed decision.
I mean, you're point is a good one. Maybe nobody would believe a word Duncan says. But by being secretive he only exacerbated the air of distrust.
#273
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 06:38
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It wouldn't have made any difference - the people of Ferelden had grown too ignorant and complacent toward the danger the darkspawn posed. The nobles blew the whole thing off as a "mere" darkspawn raid, and the civilians didn't seem to take the darkspawn very seriously either.
Just look at all of the fools in Lothering right after the King and all of his men were utterly slaughtered.
"Oh, d-d-d-do you have any traps for sale? I want to buy a few to protect my land from the thousands upon thousands of d-d-d-darkspawn headed right towards us."
"Oh yeah? Well I got POISON traps! Ha ha ha! My land will be so much better defended than yours against a massive horde of evil, violent creatures that slaughtered most of our army!"
"Oh no, didn't you hear? The Grey Wardens are the ones who actually killed our army and our King! The darkspawn just happened to be there when they did it!"
"Wow, you're right! Because that just makes so much more sense than the logical explanation, doesn't it?"
"What's logic? DERP."
No amount of secret-spilling in the world could have rectified such sheer ignorance - the Fereldans had their heads stuck firmly in the sand, and there their heads remained until the darkspawn came... and chopped them off.
Just look at all of the fools in Lothering right after the King and all of his men were utterly slaughtered.
"Oh, d-d-d-do you have any traps for sale? I want to buy a few to protect my land from the thousands upon thousands of d-d-d-darkspawn headed right towards us."
"Oh yeah? Well I got POISON traps! Ha ha ha! My land will be so much better defended than yours against a massive horde of evil, violent creatures that slaughtered most of our army!"
"Oh no, didn't you hear? The Grey Wardens are the ones who actually killed our army and our King! The darkspawn just happened to be there when they did it!"
"Wow, you're right! Because that just makes so much more sense than the logical explanation, doesn't it?"
"What's logic? DERP."
No amount of secret-spilling in the world could have rectified such sheer ignorance - the Fereldans had their heads stuck firmly in the sand, and there their heads remained until the darkspawn came... and chopped them off.
Modifié par greengoron89, 28 octobre 2011 - 06:40 .
#274
Guest_Hanz54321_*
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 07:32
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greengoron89 wrote...
It wouldn't have made any difference - the people of Ferelden had grown too ignorant and complacent toward the danger the darkspawn posed. The nobles blew the whole thing off as a "mere" darkspawn raid, and the civilians didn't seem to take the darkspawn very seriously either.
Just look at all of the fools in Lothering right after the King and all of his men were utterly slaughtered.
"Oh, d-d-d-do you have any traps for sale? I want to buy a few to protect my land from the thousands upon thousands of d-d-d-darkspawn headed right towards us."
"Oh yeah? Well I got POISON traps! Ha ha ha! My land will be so much better defended than yours against a massive horde of evil, violent creatures that slaughtered most of our army!"
"Oh no, didn't you hear? The Grey Wardens are the ones who actually killed our army and our King! The darkspawn just happened to be there when they did it!"
"Wow, you're right! Because that just makes so much more sense than the logical explanation, doesn't it?"
"What's logic? DERP."
No amount of secret-spilling in the world could have rectified such sheer ignorance - the Fereldans had their heads stuck firmly in the sand, and there their heads remained until the darkspawn came... and chopped them off.
Yeah, yeah . . . I already acknowledged your PoV. And I quote: "I mean, you're point is a good one. Maybe nobody would believe a word Duncan says."
But that's not good enough for you. You have to flog a dead horse and press for an argument. You want to fight.
But I'm not taking the bait, troll. Done talking to you about this or anything else (until I forget who you are which is usually 3-5 days).
#275
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 05:06
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That's a needlessly defensive response to a post that wasn't intended to elicit argument in any way, but do as you wish.
