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[ShadowLordXII]

Hanz54321 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

 And my Warden views him as an unacceptably risky ally, and certainly not worth losing a proven, younger man for (don't forget that Riordan in his "wisdom" hasn't shared the reason for why an extra warden would be so useful). 

I tried making this point about Duncan earlier.  Someone ended up crapping all over it but I wasn't going to argue.

But yeah . . . what is with Senior Wardens letting the decision makers in Fereldan make uninformed decisions.  Never occurs to them that if they loosened up with the secrecy Fereldan's leaders might not be so quick to toss the Wardens aside.

edit:  I gotta wonder if other nations distrust the Wardens and make bass ackwards decisions like Fereldan.  Als wonder if the Wardens communicate so badly with other nations' militaries.

Ferelden was recovering from the occupation and had just let in Grey Wardens after 200 years so that was a pretty important factor.  Duncan had to tread very carefully without risking the position of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden.

But, that is a good point.

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

I agree.  She's Loghainette. 

[Klidi]

Hm, interesting thread.

For me, Anora is a shining example of an opportunist, who will do anything to keep the power, but without any real skill in politics. During the whole year of the Blight, she does nothing. She simply leaves everything to her daddy, even knowing that he killed Cailan. Then when she senses the opportunity to cement her position cooperating with the Warden, she sets the clever little trap at Arl Howe's mansion. I don't believe she ever was in any danger - or she wouldn't be able to run away from Cauthrien the second time.

Loghain is probably the worst diplomat I've ever seen. He led Ferelden to international isolation and caused civil war, during the worst possible time.

And I'm not so impressed about his skills as a general, either. It was his battle plan, including lighting the signal. But - he woudl rely on a common soldier or a common Warden to judge the situation (how?) and give the signal to enter the battle. He knew about the tunnels beneath the Tower - the guard in front of the Tower knows, so I'm not willing to believe a general did not - but he left it unsecured, allowing the enemies easy access to the most important place in his strategy. WTF?

For me, he's either totally incompetent general or the whole strategy was just a deadly trap to get rid of Cailan. Personally I believe it was a trap - a result of long tension between the two men and their struggle for power over Ferelden.

And I believe Cailan's decision to join the battle was another result of the same thing:
- they already won several battles
- there were doubts if this was the Blight (would you believe it just based on nightmares of one guy?)
- he wanted to strengthen cooperation with Orlais but knew Loghain (and probably many others as well) would be against it, so he needed to get support, and making himself the hero who stopped the 'Blight' would help a lot
- he couldn't know Loghain's was planning to betray him.
That's what I think was the Cailan's biggerst mistake - he obviously didn't think Loghain would go that far.

So what was Cailan's plans with Orlais? We can't be sure but I doubt it was marriage with Celene. I don't believe there was any intimate relationship between them. I know about the documents in RtO, but I can't see how that proves this ridiculous assumption. Just because of friendly tone in one of the letters?

They were both rulers of their respective countries. It would be nearly impossible for them to meet and to have an affair without anyone knowing about it. Only travelling would take weeks. Even if we decide Cailan somehow managed to disappear for weeks and travel to Orlais right under the Loghain's nose, and that everyone in Celene's court was blind and dumb and didn't see what's going on, such relationship would be doomed from the begininng.

Orleasians saw Fereldan just as one rebellious province and still hoped to get it back. In that, Loghain's fears of Orleasians is quite justified. But marriage? No way. Orleasians would never accept Fereldan as their king.

It is, however, possible Cailan wanted to dismiss Anora and marry some Orleasian noble, the Queen's cousin or something like that. That was neither treason nor stupid thing to do - it was quite usual way to strenghten international relationships between countries.

And Fereldan needed to finally sort out their relationship with Orlais - if Orlais decided to invade Ferelden again, they wouldn't be strong enough to defend themselves. Not without the strong leader who would be able to unite the country. And we see Loghain is definitely not such leader.

Anora was caught in the middle of this. Without a child and probably not much support for her husband - yes, I know she says it was her who ruled the country, but it's what she says. Seeing her interactions with Teagan after Loghain usurped the power over the country, I have hard time to believe that. She was not acting as a Queen who was ruling the country for the previous five years, she acted like a naive girl who believed her daddy was doing everything for Ferelden.

So I can't really blame Cailan he wanted to change her, especially as he had continuous conflict with her father. 

I can't see how that makes him traitor to the country. Loghain had no problem to sell the citizens of the country to slavery, poison nobles, give power to men like Howe or let thousands of men die - and it is all seen as necessary, pragmatic things for the good of Ferelden. But when Cailan wants to divorce his wife, suddenly most people start saying he's a fool and a traitor.

But I'm not trying to say that Loghain was the devil incarnate while Cailan was innocent as a baby. They were both men, who did some clever things and some very foolish mistakes and paid for it. The only difference is the player can decide, for whatever reason, to give Loghain one more chance.

Anora, on the other hand... is just a brat who suddenly wants to play the Queen.

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

Dafangirl, if Anora is so motivated by patriotism, then why does she turn on you if you explain to her that her father will need to be executed? As for Loghain, he's just a paranoid tyrannical fanatic. He is essentially a fascist. Alistair makes a great king too. He rises to the occasion just fine. As for the Tower of Ishal, I suspect that Loghain dug that big hole on the first floor in order to let the Darkspawn up. Remember the guard talking about the "lower chambers", and how Loghain was "securing" the tower? If your cunning score is high enough, you have the dialogue option of "Why attack the tower at all unless they knew of the plan?". I also think that is highly probably that Loghain was working with Howe to slaughter the Cousland family, or at least knew about it ahead of time. Cailan wasn't a bad leader either. His battle plan at Ostagar would have worked perfectly had it not been for Loghain's betrayal.

[Merela]

It was Anora who led Ferelden for the five years that lasted Calian's "reign". The good king Calian was too busy making "glorious" things that had nothing to do with leading a country. :/

[actionhero112]

Klidi wrote...


So what was Cailan's plans with Orlais? We can't be sure but I doubt it was marriage with Celene. I don't believe there was any intimate relationship between them. I know about the documents in RtO, but I can't see how that proves this ridiculous assumption. Just because of friendly tone in one of the letters?

They were both rulers of their respective countries. It would be nearly impossible for them to meet and to have an affair without anyone knowing about it. Only travelling would take weeks. Even if we decide Cailan somehow managed to disappear for weeks and travel to Orlais right under the Loghain's nose, and that everyone in Celene's court was blind and dumb and didn't see what's going on, such relationship would be doomed from the begininng.

Just because there was no intimate relationship, does not mean there wasn't some sort of political marriage in the making. The lack of a physical relationship does not preclude an emotional or political one. Cailan's character is quite vague, your warden hardly ever comes into contact with him, and any further knowledge of him gained past ostagar is distorted by character bias. Though while it is clear he appears to be a good king, kind and just, the warden can't be sure. 

On one hand, a lot of people say Cailan was a fair king, on the other hand, Lohgain claim Cailan is a fool, unnecessarily putting the entire country at risk in order for some tiny piece of glory. I'm not willing to make a choice to believe either, as they are both believable to me. 

And while Anora does not interfere with her father, and you can certainly blaim her for it, at some point during the story, she calls out her father, questioning him about her husband's death.

And what does that get her? Imprisonment. So while some of you blame her for inaction, I say that even if she had spoke out against her father (Who raised her, and who she has always known as a hero) it would have been for naught anyways. She just would have been held captive by Arl Howe longer. 

I mean lets consider what Anora knows

- She knows her father is a hero, and is her actual father. 
- She knows that Cailan is dead, though not the cause.

In light of those facts, how is it surprising that it takes her a while to even begin to question her father. 

And for those of you that say she betrays your warden, think about this. Whether or not Anora betrays you depends on your in game decisions. Which in essence, makes it your fault, as Anora is just responding, and, unlike lohgain, does not take direct action to oppose you until you are like "Screw you Anora, Alibear is much hotter than your shapely dress."

Anora truly believes she is the only one that can save ferelden, and that she alone holds the leadership ability within her to save ferelden and rule it effectively, which the epilogue pretty much states. So taking that into consideration, how is it surpising that she takes every measure to preserve her well being? It's not. 

Modifié par actionhero112, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:42 .

[Mike3207]

About the year where Anora let Loghain take control-she is still grieving over the death of her husband. I think it only fair that she is cut some slack in that respect.

[Klidi]

I can agree about Cailan - we can't be sure if he was or wasn't a good king. Though I still think the marriage between Cailan and Celene was not realistic. It would not be acceptable, neither for Orlesian nobles, nor for Fereldans. But most people judge Cailan just because he dares to be jovial when they first meet him and because of what the men that killed him and and wife he wanted to divorce say about him. It's unfair and rather naive.

Anora wasn't imprisoned by Loghain. She asks her father if he killed Cailan, he gives crappy diplomatic answer and then she continues doing nothing. She was 'imprisoned' much later by Howe, and as the others already said, there are too many suspicious things around that imprisonment. I don't think she ever was in any real danger.

[Merela]

if I remember properly, even Eamon, who is "The Theirin bloodline on the trone"-man admits that his nephew wasn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed and that his young wife had no troubles for manipulating him. So, was Cailan a loved, charismatic king? Definitely. But a competent, intelligent leader? Not so much. And it's Anora that Celene admires as Ferelden's ruler, not Cailan.

[Klidi]

I don't remember that. When does Eamon say so?

[Klidi]

@dafangirl - but he still needed Loghain, so he would not hurt her. Howe was a sadist, but not a fool. He only got so far because of Loghain's support. I honestly doubt Howe would dare to slaughter Couslands without Loghain's blessing. Same for the alienage. Howe was Arl of Denerim, but Loghain was Regent. I don't buy that crap 'my subordinate did it, I had no idea, I'm innocent' - not in RL, not in a game.

[Merela]

Gaider himself said that Loghain had nothing to do with the slaughter of the Couslands by Howe. Does he know afterwards? Yes, but he's also convinced that he can handle Howe - which he can't, but it's an another story.

[Klidi]

I agree that Howe was ambitious bastard. But again, it was Loghain who gave him that much power and opportunity to do all those things. Unlike Loghain, who was a father of the Queen and the Hero of River Dane, Howe didn't have any political support, nor sufficient military power to overthrow Loghain. Maybe he would challenge Loghain or a new king for a throne one day, but it would not be for years. So Anora was perfectly safe at his estate.
Loghain would be blamed for Howe's crimes because he was responsible in the end. It's like that also in real life and it's good it's like that.
And sorry, but I don't see Loghain giving up power to Anora's new husband, if she ever married again. More likely he would be just another puppet in Loghain's hands. So I can't see that as a 'temporary solution'.

[Merela]

Lohgain as a political puppetmaster? Don't mistake him with Howe, or Eamon. Loghain is a great warrior, a great strategist, but in any case a decent politician. He has neither the subtetly neither the diplomacy. He's efficient on a battlefield, not on a throne. He took the power because he was convinced the Blight wasn't happening, but that the Wardens were orlesian agents and the first step of an orlesian coup d'Etat. And if there is something Loghain knows how to do, it's fighting Orlesians. And though he wasn't right, he wasn't wrong either.

[Mike3207]

About Anora being in danger-I think Howe's ultimate goal was to marry Anora while she was his prisoner. Once she did that, her life expectancy would tend to be on the short side. There's no doubt in my mind her life was at risk while she was his prisoner.

[Klidi]

I don't want to demonize Loghain. But I don't like demozing Howe just to make Loghain look innocent. He was the responsible person ruling the Ferelden during the Blight. Not Howe. If he was blind to what was Howe doing and incompetent to rule the country properly, I'm afraid that doesn't make him less guilty for me - on the contrary.

Howe was a bastard and I agreed with him - he deserved more. Such quick death was not enough punishment.
But Loghain was responsible for allowing Howe to get such power. Howe found Crows, but Loghain approved it. Howe purged Alianage, but Loghain signed the deal with Tevinters. Loghain sent a maleficar to poison his opponent. Before the Landsmeet, nobles in Denerim mention sudden disappearances of those who opposed Loghain. And I could continue.

Regardless the reasons why he did it, Loghain was responsible for actions.

[Klidi]

Mike Smith wrote...

About Anora being in danger-I think Howe's ultimate goal was to marry Anora while she was his prisoner. Once she did that, her life expectancy would tend to be on the short side. There's no doubt in my mind her life was at risk while she was his prisoner.

If he did that, her life expentancy would be quite good, as he would try to have a child with her, who would be an heir to the throne and giving him a legal rason to rule over Ferelden as a child's regent.
Even if he decided to kill her after she gave him the child, she was still quite safe during the 'rescue'.

[actionhero112]

Howe was an ambiguous bastard if you ask me. There was little to no screentime of him the entire game, and that which information you did obtain was through secondary sources and the codex, which is sad because what you do see makes him a great villain.

"Maker spit on you... I... deserved.... more." chills me to the bone. I half expected him to come back and try to slay me again, so deep was his passion and hatred.

I would however, be interested of a list of Howe's codexs. Especially the ones concerning his conspiracy. Because while it is likely that Lohgain knew of Howe's plans, it could easily be as likely that Howe was making under the table deals throughout the years, to secure his coup. For instance, the only reason Cailan knows of the coup in highever is because the warden and duncan tell him. And in Duncan's own words, if you both had died, Howe could have told Cailan "any lie he wanted."

I'm not half the political mastermind that Howe is, but he could easily say it was the darkspawn, planting weapons and etc and Cailan would not know the difference.

Point being, Lohgain did not have to know about Howe's treachery before hand, but I find it hard to believe that he didn't know or guess as the story progressed

Modifié par actionhero112, 17 novembre 2011 - 12:38 .

[Merela]

Nobody pretends that Loghain is not responsible for his actions, just that pretending he's the evil mastermind of doom is false. It's not a matter of demonizing Howe either - there is no demon or hidden devil here, but just a man eaten by jealousy, greed and resentment take to the extreme. Things like that happen, and somewhat I pity him, because it's perfectly possible he actually paid, by a lack of recognition by the Crown, for the betrayal of his father and grandfather during the orlesian occupation.

Now, I'm sure Loghain eventually learnt about his treachery, but what was he supposed to do after that? Telling Howe to GTFU or putting him in a jail? The bannorn refuses to bend the knee, and Loghain doesn't have enough soldiers anymore for forcing them to obey after Ostagar. Howe still have all his men, and even more as soon as he got Highever and Denerim. Loghain needs him, his men and all the ressources available. And like it or not, but from a pragmatic point of view, selling the Elves is a perfect opportunity to refill the coffers.

Modifié par Merela, 17 novembre 2011 - 01:25 .

[Plaintiff]

Merela wrote...

It was Anora who led Ferelden for the five years that lasted Calian's "reign". The good king Calian was too busy making "glorious" things that had nothing to do with leading a country. :/

So she says, but let's look at the facts here. She completely lost control of her country and allowed Loghain to drag it into a civil war.  When you're Queen of anything, that's pretty much the worst thing you could possibly do. And on top of that, she blundered straight into the captivity of a man she had good reason to suspect of wrongdoing. The woman went to his house with no more protection than a single lady-in-waiting.

If she's so darn capable, why didn't she step up and take the reins instead of handing them over to her clearly not-all-there daddy?

[Mike3207]

Plaintiff wrote...

Merela wrote...

It was Anora who led Ferelden for the five years that lasted Calian's "reign". The good king Calian was too busy making "glorious" things that had nothing to do with leading a country. :/

So she says, but let's look at the facts here. She completely lost control of her country and allowed Loghain to drag it into a civil war.  When you're Queen of anything, that's pretty much the worst thing you could possibly do. And on top of that, she blundered straight into the captivity of a man she had good reason to suspect of wrongdoing. The woman went to his house with no more protection than a single lady-in-waiting.

If she's so darn capable, why didn't she step up and take the reins instead of handing them over to her clearly not-all-there daddy?

Her husband had died around the time she made her father Regent. Under the circumstances, it is perfectly reasonable for her to have made her father Regent, especially since I believe he had taken control in the past when Maric was King. She had no way of knowing how things would go south after making her father Regent, but it's too late after the fact.

[Klidi]

Why it was 'perfectly reasonable' to give the the power to someone else in the moment her country needed her most?

[Mike3207]

Klidi wrote...

Why it was 'perfectly reasonable' to give the the power to someone else in the moment her country needed her most?

Because she was grieving over the death of her husband at the time she made Loghain Regent-just after the Battle of Ostagar.She probably thought he would do a good job until she was through her period of mourning.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 25 novembre 2011 - 06:26 .