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[nos_astra]

Mike Smith wrote...

Klidi wrote...
Why it was 'perfectly reasonable' to give the the power to someone else in the moment her country needed her most?

Because she was grieving over the death of her husband at the time she made Loghain Regent-just after the Battle of Ostagar.She probably thought he would do a good job until she was through her period of mourning.

For a whole year?

At what point would her ambition kick in and her desire to impress the Landsmeet so they might elect her Queen in her own right? Or did she think Daddy would grab power and then hand it over after he fixed everything for her? Does this sound smart?

Ok, it does sound smart in a twisted way. She sacrifices her father's reputation and life and the country while she's playing the damsel in distress. That would make her a manipulative ****.

Or she really is not good at what she does. Maybe she lacks foresight and ambition and simply does what she is told. Maybe it has always been this way, maybe Loghain built her up to be his puppet, so he could influence Cailan and rule in his stead through her.

I like the character. She has a lot of potential, thanks to the many blanks. But she's not at all well-written or anything.
(Even Loghain's a bit better a character but a far cry from being especially deep or well-written in my eyes.)

Modifié par klarabella, 25 novembre 2011 - 10:27 .

[Klidi]

Mike Smith wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Why it was 'perfectly reasonable' to give the the power to someone else in the moment her country needed her most?

Because she was grieving over the death of her husband at the time she made Loghain Regent-just after the Battle of Ostagar.She probably thought he would do a good job until she was through her period of mourning.

She was a queen. King and queens were not given any 'period of mourning'. Especially not if the country was in such situation as Ferelden. They could mourn in private, but they had to do their duty as a ruler first.

[Wulfram]

Anora seems quite capable of staging a grab for power at the landsmeet while her fathers body hasn't yet cooled, so I'm not sure why Cailan's death should leave her incapable.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I swear Mike and Plaintiff had this EXACT word for word exchange 2 weeks ago on another thread.

That exact same conversation was done a million times for more than a year. I keep reading the same arguments and they certainly did not get any stronger.

[Klidi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

I swear Mike and Plaintiff had this EXACT word for word exchange 2 weeks ago on another thread.

That exact same conversation was done a million times for more than a year. I keep reading the same arguments and they certainly did not get any stronger.

And the point of these comments is... what exactly? That the people who were not here a year ago should not discuss it, because you did it before?

I come accross these comments 'we discussed it before' quite often and frankly, it's quite annoying.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Klidi wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Why it was 'perfectly reasonable' to give the the power to someone else in the moment her country needed her most?

Because she was grieving over the death of her husband at the time she made Loghain Regent-just after the Battle of Ostagar.She probably thought he would do a good job until she was through her period of mourning.

She was a queen. King and queens were not given any 'period of mourning'. Especially not if the country was in such situation as Ferelden. They could mourn in private, but they had to do their duty as a ruler first.

As much as I like Anora (Yes I said like) I have to agree with Klidi. One does not take a break off to mourn when the country is in uproar; Dead husband or no, it was a stupid move on her part -Assuming that, that is what happened of course.
I always got the impression that her father stole her power out from under her. But either way it show's weakness on her part.
EDIT to add. I wasn't here a year ago either.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 25 novembre 2011 - 06:45 .

[Mike3207]

@ Hanz-We probably did-I think Anora making Loghain Regent because she's dealing with the death of her husband is a reasonable act, and I tend to raise it whenever the subject of Anora making her father the Regent is raised.

Not sure the events at the Landsmeet are relevant-it's a totally different situation. She's still Queen after she makes her father the Regent, but she could not only lose power but end up in prison if the Landsmeet goes bad.

I agree making her father Regent is not a smart move at the time-but I can understand why she does it. It's too late after the fact of course.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 25 novembre 2011 - 06:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Klidi wrote...
And the point of these comments is... what exactly? That the people who were not here a year ago should not discuss it, because you did it before?

I come accross these comments 'we discussed it before' quite often and frankly, it's quite annoying.

No, simply stating what I feel like stating.

[ejoslin]

Loghain, according to Teagan, appointed himself regent. HOW could Anora exactly have stopped him? He had the army, hers was lost. He had acted as regent before on Meric's behalf. Neither of them realized that there was a blight. Teagan incited the civil war, but agin, how could Anora have stopped this? Her army had just been completely DESTROYED.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I wonder why people are always so fixated on symptoms that they never think of the root causes. For instance, it would seem that no one thinks that Ferelden's political system is crap and a civil war was inevitable regardless of the catalyst. Nor does anyone mention the fact that Anora did try to mediate with the bannorn, who just ignored her. But of course everyone ignores these idiots.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

ejoslin wrote...

Loghain, according to Teagan, appointed himself regent. HOW could Anora exactly have stopped him? He had the army, hers was lost. He had acted as regent before on Meric's behalf. Neither of them realized that there was a blight. Teagan incited the civil war, but agin, how could Anora have stopped this? Her army had just been completely DESTROYED.

Stuck a dagger in his throat while he was sleeping?........Just a thought

[KnightofPhoenix]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Loghain, according to Teagan, appointed himself regent. HOW could Anora exactly have stopped him? He had the army, hers was lost. He had acted as regent before on Meric's behalf. Neither of them realized that there was a blight. Teagan incited the civil war, but agin, how could Anora have stopped this? Her army had just been completely DESTROYED.

Stuck a dagger in his throat while he was sleeping?........Just a thought

Yea, kill the only general she has at her disposal and alienate his men. Brilliant.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Loghain, according to Teagan, appointed himself regent. HOW could Anora exactly have stopped him? He had the army, hers was lost. He had acted as regent before on Meric's behalf. Neither of them realized that there was a blight. Teagan incited the civil war, but agin, how could Anora have stopped this? Her army had just been completely DESTROYED.

Stuck a dagger in his throat while he was sleeping?........Just a thought

Yea, kill the only general she has at her disposal and alienate his men. Brilliant.

I didn't say it was a good idea. It was just a suggestion

[Mike3207]

ejoslin wrote...

Loghain, according to Teagan, appointed himself regent. HOW could Anora exactly have stopped him? He had the army, hers was lost. He had acted as regent before on Meric's behalf. Neither of them realized that there was a blight. Teagan incited the civil war, but agin, how could Anora have stopped this? Her army had just been completely DESTROYED.

It's mentioned by the dwarven merchants as a rumor that Anora makes her father Regent after Ostagar, but it is only a rumor. It may be that Teagan was unaware of this.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...
So while I'm not addressing your "root causes" question, I think I've decided I agree that NOBODY takes her seriously.  Maybe she is a crappy ruler.

Because in the breakdown of laws and conventions (which were already weak to begin with), the only one who can't be ignored is the person with the iron fist strong enough to impose his/her will on everyone else. 

Anora lacked that fist, in that she did not have an army. And whatever army Loghain had was insufficient.

Sooo to address the root cause, the problem is rather clear. Ferelden lacks a Leviathan.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 novembre 2011 - 07:35 .

[Klidi]

If Loghain usurped power from her, he's hardly 'general she has to her disposal'.

And if Banns ignored her, it only proves she never was a strong queen ruling the country, as she wants to convince the Warden - she doesn't have political support for that. If she had, she could have try to do what Eamon did, unite the country and raise army again.

I agree that the civil war was inevitable, I write about that in my fanfiction - but that again only proves that Cailan/Anora rule was not good one and that they both failed to solve the problems of the country.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Klidi wrote...

If Loghain usurped power from her, he's hardly 'general she has to her disposal'.

Of course he is. Him usurping power does not change the fact that he is the only general Ferelden has.

And if Banns ignored her, it only proves she never was a strong queen ruling the country, as she wants to convince the Warden - she doesn't have political support for that. If she had, she could have try to do what Eamon did, unite the country and raise army again.

If she lacks an army at her personal command, she is weak axiomatically. It has little to do with her and more to do with how the system is built. Extremily flawed and decentralized.

She did try what Eamon did, except they ignored her. Eamon on the otherhand has an army and can dissociate himself from Loghain. And more importantly, by the time of the Landsmeet, the blight had exploded and moved North. Before that, as we can see on the map, the blight did not move past Lothering. So evidently, the banns did not care back then.

I agree that the civil war was inevitable, I write about that in my fanfiction - but that again only proves that Cailan/Anora rule was not good one and that they both failed to solve the problems of the country.

It wasn't, neither was the 3 century old Therein monarchy that kept Ferelden in its primitive backwater state.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 novembre 2011 - 07:41 .

[Klidi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Klidi wrote...

If Loghain usurped power from her, he's hardly 'general she has to her disposal'.

Of course he is. Him usurping power does not change the fact that he is the only general Ferelden has.

I don't think he's the only general. He's the only general mentioned in the game, but  I honeslty doubt he's the only one.

Even if he was, he's not at Anora's disposal, because she has no control over him. It's the other way round - she acts as his puppet queen.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Klidi wrote...

And if Banns ignored her, it only proves she never was a strong queen ruling the country, as she wants to convince the Warden - she doesn't have political support for that. If she had, she could have try to do what Eamon did, unite the country and raise army again.

If she lacks an army at her personal command, she is weak axiomatically. It has little to do with her and more to do with how the system is built. Extremily flawed and decentralized.

She did try what Eamon did, except they ignored her. Eamon on the otherhand has an army and can dissociate himself from Loghain. And more importantly, by the time of the Landsmeet, the blight had exploded and moved North. Before that, as we can see on the map, the blight did not move past Lothering. So evidently, the banns did not care back then.

So you're saying that Eamon threatened Banns with his army? That's ridiculous.

Besides, country is not ruled only by an army. What is more important is money, i.e. political and economical power, control over merchants and business. Without that, neither Loghain or Eamon could keep their army.  Anora had no political influence. If she had, if they saw her as a powerful ally with whom they could make deals that would be profitable for her, they wouldn't ignore her - and then she would have an army, as well.

But that would require her going to opposition, and she did not do that.  I can hardly see one attempt to justify Loghain's actions to Teagan as opposition.

Also, those were not permanent armies, those were normal people recruited for the battle. In Lothering, two gossip guys mention that the recruiter was searching for new recruits.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Klidi wrote...

I agree that the civil war was inevitable, I write about that in my fanfiction - but that again only proves that Cailan/Anora rule was not good one and that they both failed to solve the problems of the country.

It wasn't, neither was the 3 century old Therein monarchy that kept Ferelden in its primitive backwater state.

There we can agree.

Modifié par Klidi, 25 novembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Klidi wrote...
I don't think he's the only general. He's the only general mentioned in the game, but  I honeslty doubt he's the only one.

The only good one, and certainly the most popular amongst the army.
Considering Ferelden's feudal system, I doubt its idiotic lords have that much of a clue how to fight proper wars.

So you're saying that Eamon threatened Banns with his army? That's ridiculous.

Besides, country is not ruled only by an army. What is more important is money, i.e. political and economical power, control over merchants and business. Without that, neither Loghain or Eamon could keep their army.  Anora had no political influence. If she had, if they saw her as a powerful ally with whom they could make deals that would be profitable for her, they wouldn't ignore her - and then she would have an army, as well.

But that would require her going to opposition, and she did not do that.  I can hardly see one attempt to justify Loghain's actions to Teagan as opposition.

Also, those were not permanent armies, those were normal people recruited for the battle. In Lothering, two gossip guys mention that the recruiter was searching for new recruits.

No, not threaten. But have the appearance of power. Without that army, he would have been a nobody crying in the wilderness.

Of course the military is not the only factor at play, and sure economic power is important. But more often then not, to acquire and preserve that economic power, you need an army, otherwise you'd lose it. It's a pretty cyclical thing.
If Anora has no army, then thus she could not have any influence, economic or otherwise, in the context of a breakdown of conventions and laws. What she could have used was maybe the royal treasury that I doubt was plenty. Not that Loghain would allow it in the first place.

Anora going to the opposition would have been pretty stupid, considering how weak they were. Loghain and his  coalition were the stronger force, before the Warden showed up with his / her own army.

And precisely, because there are no permanent armies, Ferelden is a pathetic excuse of a country.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Besides, country is not ruled only by an army. What is more important is money, i.e. political and economical power, control over merchants and business.

The real reason people pay the credit card companies is because if they don't they will go to jail.

Not sure what country you live in, but here in th UK people do not go to jail/prison for owing a debt. They get 'black listed' and declared bankrupt.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 25 novembre 2011 - 08:27 .