481 réponses à ce sujet

[Klidi]

wrong. If you owe someone money and you don't pay it because you can kick his ass, that makes you a bully and criminal.

Not an army.

Army costs money. Army costs A LOT of money. You can afford an army only if you have money. If you control business and have money, you will have army as well. If you don't have money and can't pay your soldiers, provide their food, accommodation, armours, weapons, healing, etc. you will soon have nothing.

And money is of course the reason why wars happen. Not patriotism, interests of the country... bullshi*t. If you go down to the core of it, the real reason is interest of a small group of people to make profit.

Civil wars, however, do not make any profit. Civil wars only cause costs, that will take quite some time to get back. Civil wars destroy the business and cause political and economical instability of the region.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Klidi wrote...

wrong. If you owe someone money and you don't pay it because you can kick his ass, that makes you a bully and criminal.

Not an army.

.....The state / Leviathan is a bully, being the holder of the monopoly on legitimate use of force.
A succesful one is one that uses that force for the common good, but ultimately, yea it's a bully mechanism.

Army costs money. Army costs A LOT of money. You can afford an army only if you have money. If you control business and have money, you will have army as well. If you don't have money and can't pay your soldiers, provide their food, accommodation, armours, weapons, healing, etc. you will soon have nothing.

And you cannot secure that money without an army or physical strength in the first place (barring exceptions related to geographic conditions). You can expand that army once you secure your resources.

For without an army, anyone can take your resources. Or exploit them.

And money is of course the reason why wars happen. Not patriotism, interests of the country... bullshi*t. If you go down to the core of it, the real reason is interest of a small group of people to make profit.

Eh, not convinced by the Marxist vibed school of international relations.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 novembre 2011 - 08:36 .

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Hanz54321 wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

Klidi wrote...

Besides, country is not ruled only by an army. What is more important is money, i.e. political and economical power, control over merchants and business.

The real reason people pay the credit card companies is because if they don't they will go to jail.

Not sure what country you live in, but here in th UK people do not go to jail/prison for owing a debt. They get 'black listed' and declared bankrupt.

Well - I was trying to simplify the example.

I should've used the more comlicated example of someone who willfully overspends knowing they cannot repay the debt.  If they get caught, it's jail.  But if they can convince the judge they legitimately went broke, it's bankruptcy and then one can rebuild one's credit if one is money saavy.

Point still stands - money doesn't really rule the world.  Threat of force and effective use of force do.

I agree (Bold part).....One only has to look around their local neighborhood or read the news papers to know that *Shrugs*

[Klidi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Eh, not convinced by the Marxist vibed school of international relations.

We can agree to disagree...  You still need money first to raise the army that would secure the resources...

and no, not convinced by Marxist vibed school of international relationship. Convinced by my personal experience as a person who lived in a country, where there was war for five years, not that long ago. *shrugs*.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Klidi wrote...
and no, not convinced by Marxist vibed school of international relationship. Convinced by my personal experience as a person who lived in a country, where there was war for five years, not that long ago. *shrugs*.

Yea, I lived in a region where children were acquainted with the concept of war at the age of 6 and which has been in a constant state of instability and conflict since 1948.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 novembre 2011 - 09:02 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Anora is what everybody believes her father to be.

Mike Smith wrote...

She's the best person for the job and she makes a strong case for you supporting her.I'd consider Alistair, but he never comes up with a legitimate reason why you should make him King.

Anora makes money for Ferelden. That's about all the good that she does. She allows the mistreatment of the elves to continue and then comes down hard on them when they try to protest it.

Alistair keeps the peace. He thinks with his heart when it comes to ruling and contrary to what Anora and Loghain both think, it worked. He commanded loyalty and respect through benevolence. not an iron fist.


Anora also gives no consideration to the country's future after she is gone. She refuses to marry and/or sire an heir to the throne. She just cares about ruling while she's alive and to the void with it afterward.

Alistair's first thought after becoming king(given right circumstances) is that he will have to get married and produce an heir.

The most amicable way to go is to marry Alistair and Anora. Best of both worlds.

[Plaintiff]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
The most amicable way to go is to marry Alistair and Anora. Best of both worlds.

It makes sense politically, but I'd feel bad for shackling my broski to that frigid gorgon.

[Mike3207]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Anora is what everybody believes her father to be.

Mike Smith wrote...

She's the best person for the job and she makes a strong case for you supporting her.I'd consider Alistair, but he never comes up with a legitimate reason why you should make him King.

Anora makes money for Ferelden. That's about all the good that she does. She allows the mistreatment of the elves to continue and then comes down hard on them when they try to protest it.

Alistair keeps the peace. He thinks with his heart when it comes to ruling and contrary to what Anora and Loghain both think, it worked. He commanded loyalty and respect through benevolence. not an iron fist.


Anora also gives no consideration to the country's future after she is gone. She refuses to marry and/or sire an heir to the throne. She just cares about ruling while she's alive and to the void with it afterward.

Alistair's first thought after becoming king(given right circumstances) is that he will have to get married and produce an heir.



The most amicable way to go is to marry Alistair and Anora. Best of both worlds.

There's talk of an invasion by Orlais when Alistair is King-no such talk when Anora is Queen. From what I hear, there's not going to be a royal heir regardless, so it really doesn't matter.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 26 novembre 2011 - 03:14 .

[pplr]

I think marrying Anora and Alistair works best.

He is more of an idealist so he will try to encourage changes he sees as worthwhile and she has the credibility to ensure the both of them keep the monarchy.

She has too much interest in stability to risk even modest attempts on improving society on her own so someone else has to make the first step.

That doesn't make her power hungry, just less of a visionary than Alistair (who wants to help mages, elves, and others who haven't gotten a good situation in life).

Modifié par pplr, 27 novembre 2011 - 12:17 .

[Persephone]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
The most amicable way to go is to marry Alistair and Anora. Best of both worlds.

It makes sense politically, but I'd feel bad for shackling my broski to that frigid gorgon.

"Frigid" gorgon? Wow.... sweet misogyny there.  <_< But hey, who cares about sexism?

As for Anora refusing to see to the future because she won't marry and produce an heir.... Elizabeth I. did the same and GEE, she did better than any male ruler of her time.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Mike Smith wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Anora is what everybody believes her father to be.

Mike Smith wrote...

She's the best person for the job and she makes a strong case for you supporting her.I'd consider Alistair, but he never comes up with a legitimate reason why you should make him King.

Anora makes money for Ferelden. That's about all the good that she does. She allows the mistreatment of the elves to continue and then comes down hard on them when they try to protest it.

Alistair keeps the peace. He thinks with his heart when it comes to ruling and contrary to what Anora and Loghain both think, it worked. He commanded loyalty and respect through benevolence. not an iron fist.


Anora also gives no consideration to the country's future after she is gone. She refuses to marry and/or sire an heir to the throne. She just cares about ruling while she's alive and to the void with it afterward.

Alistair's first thought after becoming king(given right circumstances) is that he will have to get married and produce an heir.



The most amicable way to go is to marry Alistair and Anora. Best of both worlds.

From what I hear, there's not going to be a royal heir regardless, so it really doesn't matter.

The possibility of Alistair and power hungry female Cousland having an heir is definitely not going to happen, but there's still hope for the lovely Anora and male Cousland

[KnightofPhoenix]

pplr wrote...
That doesn't make her power hungry, just less of a visionary than Alistair (who wants to help mages, elves, and others who haven't gotten a good situation in life).

Building a university, improving the economy and propelling Ferelden into the international arena, among the ranks of nations that matter, is far more visionary than helping a small minority which uses are limited, in my eyes. 

Plus, Anora is as willing to help mages as Alistair.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 novembre 2011 - 11:08 .

[pplr]

@KoP

Where do you get that from?

Is she more of an internationalist than Alistair? Yes-she is the experienced diplomat.

But I don't see her doing anything special mage or university-wise.

Oh, and I wanted to point out that Alistair seemed willing to do his part to stop the blight even when he leaves the Wardens-leading an army none to far away. Now I don't know if he had a private conversation with Riordan but just because he wasn't a Gray Warden anymore doesn't mean he didn't drink the blood nor is it like he wouldn't be willing to throw himself at an archdemon if he thought it would stop the blight. Granted that is crisis at hand rather than the long term rebuilding of a nation & keeping the peace as it recovers but it shows that even after throwing a fit he doesn't forget about important goals.

Plus I have a soft spot for the City Elves-best ending senario for them is a living Warden-hero (your character) who can serve as their Bann directly and a king Alistair who, unlike Anora, does his best to keep others from imposing racist policies from above. That epilogue gives me the feeling she is far more likely to throw some of her citizenry under the bus than he is.


EDIT:
Doesn't mean I hate her it just means I don't appreciate the likelihood she'll sit around and let bad things happen. Some called her efficient or respect her ambition at wanting to retain her high office.  But I don't as ambitious people who do nothing (that is some goal beyond holding his or her own office) can be useless to their nation/society and the only way to get them to do something worthwhile is to have someone else take step one (which can prod them into action, perhaps even more effective action than the initial actor, but finally action rather than sitting on one's rear).

Modifié par pplr, 27 novembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

pplr wrote...
But I don't see her doing anything special mage or university-wise.

The university is mentionned in the epilogue and I don't think I need to explain why that's important. The mage thing is her agreeing to free the Circle if you ask for it.
 

Granted that is crisis at hand rather than the long term rebuilding of a nation & keeping the peace as it recovers but it shows that even after throwing a fit he doesn't forget about important goals.

Except he does leave if you spare Loghain and don't make him king.

Doesn't mean I hate her it just means I don't appreciate the likelihood she'll sit around and let bad things happen. Some called her efficient or respect her ambition at wanting to retain her high office.  But I don't as ambitious people who do nothing (that is some goal beyond holding his or her own office) can be useless to their nation/society and the only way to get them to do something worthwhile is to have someone else take step one (which can prod them into action, perhaps even more effective action than the initial actor, but finally action rather than sitting on one's rear).

I'd say increasing commerce, drafting laws to increase freeholder productivity and a university is far from doing nothing.

It's the Therein line that effectively did nothing for 3 centuries. Helping City elves in that context (devastated country, very limited resources, greater priorities) means little to me. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 novembre 2011 - 12:43 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Mike Smith wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Anora is what everybody believes her father to be.

Mike Smith wrote...

She's the best person for the job and she makes a strong case for you supporting her.I'd consider Alistair, but he never comes up with a legitimate reason why you should make him King.

Anora makes money for Ferelden. That's about all the good that she does. She allows the mistreatment of the elves to continue and then comes down hard on them when they try to protest it.

Alistair keeps the peace. He thinks with his heart when it comes to ruling and contrary to what Anora and Loghain both think, it worked. He commanded loyalty and respect through benevolence. not an iron fist.


Anora also gives no consideration to the country's future after she is gone. She refuses to marry and/or sire an heir to the throne. She just cares about ruling while she's alive and to the void with it afterward.

Alistair's first thought after becoming king(given right circumstances) is that he will have to get married and produce an heir.



The most amicable way to go is to marry Alistair and Anora. Best of both worlds.

There's talk of an invasion by Orlais when Alistair is King-no such talk when Anora is Queen. From what I hear, there's not going to be a royal heir regardless, so it really doesn't matter.

In all fairness, you never meet Anora in Dragon Age II. The talk about war came right from Alistair's mouth, not from some passerby rumor. And she doesn't have any more power over Orlais than Alistair does. But at least Alistair keeps his nation united.

Also even if their isn't going to be a royal heir, at least Alistair gave it consideration. He's just hindered by the fact that the living with the taint for a long time makes you become sterile.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 27 novembre 2011 - 01:25 .

[Plaintiff]

Persephone wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
The most amicable way to go is to marry Alistair and Anora. Best of both worlds.

It makes sense politically, but I'd feel bad for shackling my broski to that frigid gorgon.

"Frigid" gorgon? Wow.... sweet misogyny there.  <_< But hey, who cares about sexism?

As for Anora refusing to see to the future because she won't marry and produce an heir.... Elizabeth I. did the same and GEE, she did better than any male ruler of her time.

Where did I say men can't be frigid?

But yes, I stand by what I said. Anora is a frigid person, in pretty much everything she does. And I don't see anything that makes her a better ruler than Alistair or Cailan. Different, maybe, but not better. Especially since I consider the advancement of civil rights much more important than advancing Ferelden's status relative to other provinces. Though I don't see why she couldn't manage both, if she's so super-duper awesome.

I find it especially hilarious that she thinks of herself as the real brains behind Cailan, since it turns out Cailan had plans for Ferelden that clearly did not include her.

Elizabeth I. didn't fail completely at keeping her country under control. I couldn't care less which one of the two candidates is more likely to start producing squawling snot-faucets. My only concern is that Anora had her chance to show what she could do, with or without a man, and she totally ****ing blew it. Alistair might screw things up, but compared to someone who already has, I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 novembre 2011 - 01:36 .

[pplr]

The university is mentionned in the epilogue and I don't think I need to explain why that's important. The mage thing is her agreeing to free the Circle if you ask for it.

 
Ok, I just found it on youtube and see what you mean.  Though plans being drawn up isn't the same as actually building a university  (but I admit with time it is quite possible Anora gets it done).

That said Alistair goes one further than her with mages.  Both are willing to free the Circle but I believe DA2 shows that it doesn't happen.  Alistair (no matter if your Warden was a mage or not) does what he can by trying to help apostates-even to the point of irking Meredith.

So he is still better in that regard.

Except he does leave if you spare Loghain and don't make him king. 

Perhaps, though are you sure he doesn't try to sneak into and fight alongside the regular army when you rescue Denerium?  He may turn into a drunk later but that doesn't mean he couldn't have joined the fight on his own-I doubt a unit of soldiers would have turned him away if he offered to fight alongside them.

I'd say increasing commerce, drafting laws to increase freeholder productivity and a university is far from doing nothing.

It isn't.  However how do you know she doesn't do some of that anyway as part of the rebuilding process she and Alistair do well together if wed?

It's the Therein line that effectively did nothing for 3 centuries. Helping City elves in that context (devastated country, very limited resources, greater priorities) means little to me.

I tend to hold bloodlines as less important than the actions of any one individual who happens to be a member of one.  I figure that Alistair, despite not being raised with the expectation he would be king, is actually more likely to accomplish things than his half-brother (had the latter not been killed by darkspawn) in the same office.  Now I grant Cailan would have improved foreign relations a great deal but perhaps there is some reason to for Loghain to worry-not over his daughter loosing her post but that Orlesians may increase their designs on Ferelden or tha Ferelden's traditions at least would be under threat.

It seemed you didn't care for decentralized government but Orlesian government by comparison is too centralized-to the point where some of their own citizenry chooses to become refugees to a backwater simply because of abuse and oppression.  Excuse me, centralized government may not be the problem there but one that is willing to either tolerate or embrace abuses.  Howe was a horrible ruler but his actions caused dismay in Ferelden while I'm not sure Orlesian nobles would be bothered.

Ferelden made a social step forwards with ending slavery and, generally, treating its citizenry as if they had some value.  Not so much in Orlesian lands.


Also it isn't just helping the city elves as much as allowing them to build themselves up.  That in turn could benefit Denerium and Ferelden as they become more productive citizens.

One of the unseen epilogues for a city elf even notes that life may get so good and properous for elves in Denerium that others immigrate there and the community grows.  Now sure not all the humans like it (there were riots mentioned though there is no notable harm spoken of if your Warden is the elven Bann), but productive and prosperous immigrants can be a boon for the nation that recieves them.  And as Ferelden/Denerium is rebuilding it seems arguably more likely to benefit than usual (it may need the influx of workers).

Modifié par pplr, 27 novembre 2011 - 01:50 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Plaintiff wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
The most amicable way to go is to marry Alistair and Anora. Best of both worlds.

It makes sense politically, but I'd feel bad for shackling my broski to that frigid gorgon.

"Frigid" gorgon? Wow.... sweet misogyny there.  <_< But hey, who cares about sexism?

As for Anora refusing to see to the future because she won't marry and produce an heir.... Elizabeth I. did the same and GEE, she did better than any male ruler of her time.

Where did I say men can't be frigid?

But yes, I stand by what I said. Anora is a frigid person, in pretty much everything she does. And I don't see anything that makes her a better ruler than Alistair or Cailan. Different, maybe, but not better. Especially since I consdier the advancement of civil rights much more important than advancing Ferelden's status relative to other provinces. Though I don't see why she couldn't manage both, if she's so super-duper awesome.

I find it especially hilarious that she thinks of herself as the real brains behind Cailan, since it turns out Cailan had plans for Ferelden that clearly did not include her.

Anora is a cold woman. She's cunning and manipulative. That makes for a good politician but not a good leader. As David Gaider said, she's her father's daughter and that's the most important thing to remember.

All the extremes that Loghain went to in Origins. Lies, backstabbing, desertion, slave trading, outright sadism towards anyone who spoke against him, and striking first out of suspicion and paranoia -- Anora would do in a heartbeat if SHE felt she had to.

In some ways, she's worse than her father. Considering she sells him out to die for undermining her authority.

pplr wrote...

Also it isn't just helping the city elves as
much as allowing them to build themselves up.  That in turn could
benefit Denerium and Ferelden as they become more productive citizens.

One
of the unseen epilogues for a city elf even notes that life may get so
good and properous for elves in Denerium that other immigrate there and
the community grows.  Now sure not all the humans like it (there were
riots mentioned though there is no notable harm mentioned if your Warden
is the elven Bann), but productive and prosperous immigrants can be a
boon for the nation that recieves them.  And as Ferelden/Denerium
is rebuilding it seems arguably more likely to benefit that usual (it
may need the influx of workers).

Yeah racist riots happen whenever a minority begins improving. That's a sign that Alistair has taken a step towards a social reform that arguably took a lot longer to happen in our world.

Anora doesn't give spit about minorities. She
just cares about pulling the strings of people of influence, who are
all human. And since they are mostly racist towards elves she'll keep
them repressed for the sake of her own power.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 27 novembre 2011 - 01:39 .

[pplr]

@The Grey Nayr

Actually I doubt Anora would engage in slave trading.

I get the sense her father was much more likely to rock the boat than she-and Loghain rocked it a LOT.

Anora, understanding that it would annoy people and potentially lead to a weaking of her position would have stayed away from it. I fault her with being to cautious.

If Loghain had his way if it wasn't for the fact that his daughter was Queen he may well have overturned the entire monarchy system of Ferelden. But I suspect that wouldn't last as, perhaps as with Cromwell and England, he would have replaced it the monarchy with a simple and unenlightened military dictatorship.

Those may accomplish impressive results in the short term but in the long run people tire of them and they open themselves up to civil war and/or abuse by leaders more interested in self enrichment than building up their nation.

Not all dictators are bad or start out that way but many leech of their nations rather than build them-compare Haiti and the Dominican Republic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

pplr wrote...
That said Alistair goes one further than her with mages.  Both are willing to free the Circle but I believe DA2 shows that it doesn't happen.  Alistair (no matter if your Warden was a mage or not) does what he can by trying to help apostates-even to the point of irking Meredith.

DA2 makes no mention of Anora at all for us to even know what she is doing. I doubt she would be that different in that regard. Mages are an important resource.

Perhaps, though are you sure he doesn't try to sneak into and fight alongside the regular army when you rescue Denerium? 

Yes I am sure, he left.

It isn't.  However how do you know she doesn't do some of that anyway as part of the rebuilding process she and Alistair do well together if wed?

She could do "some of that", but I would rather she do "all of it". Resources are limited and priorities have to be set. The elves are not that important to me or Ferelden.

I tend to hold bloodlines as less important than the actions of any one individual who happens to be a member of one.  I figure that Alistair, despite not being raised with the expectation he would be king, is actually more likely to accomplish things than his half-brother (had the latter not been killed by darkspawn) in the same office. 

That's not saying much, Cailan is an imbecile. Of course Alistair would do better.

It seemed you didn't care for decentralized government but Orlesian government by comparison is too centralized and-to the point where their own citizenry chooses to become refugees to a backwater simply because of abuse and oppression.  Excuse me, centralized government may not be the problem there but one that is willing to either tolerate or embrace abuses.  Howe was a horrible ruler but his actions caused dismay in Ferelden while I'm not sure Orlesian nobles would be bothered.

Ferelden made a social step forwards with ending slavery and, generally, treating its citizenry as if they had some value.  Not so much in Orlesian lands.

Orlais is not the only model for centralized government. In fact, like I have argued in the past, Ferelden has the mentality and history to forge an even better model, with effective rule of Law and a politically dominant middle class.

Orlais might do well if Celene reforms it, which she seems to be doing. But I never argued for Ferelden to follow the Orlesian model, but to rather go beyond it in terms of social mobility and rule of law. 

Also it isn't just helping the city elves as much as allowing them to build themselves up.  That in turn could benefit Denerium and Ferelden as they become more productive citizens.

What needs to be done immediately is alleviate the overpopulation in Denerim, as the codices mention. To do that, half the elves should be relocated somewhere else, by force if necessary.

In the long run, I agree that the elven question should be delt with. But with Ferelden's limited resources, I think priorities have to be set and elves would rank low in my eyes.

One of the unseen epilogues for a city elf even notes that life may get so good and properous for elves in Denerium that other immigrate there and the community grows.  Now sure not all the humans like it (there were riots mentioned though there is no notable harm mentioned if your Warden is the elven Bann), but productive and prosperous immigrants can be a boon for the nation that recieves them.  And as Ferelden/Denerium is rebuilding it seems arguably more likely to benefit that usual (it may need the influx of workers).

Prosperus elves are not likely to exist.

I would agree 100% if you were talking about Dwarves. They have financial skills and a good working ethic. Elves in comparison, are not as useful however.

Of course, as I have argued in the past, Anora did not handle the situation well (what hsould have been done is move a lot of elves to other places and benefit from them as workers). But I do not see Alsitair's alternative, of wasting resources on them at such a time, as desirable.

[WhiteKnyght]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Also it isn't just helping the city elves as much as allowing them to build themselves up.  That in turn could benefit Denerium and Ferelden as they become more productive citizens.

What needs to be done immediately is alleviate the overpopulation in Denerim, as the codices mention. To do that, half the elves should be relocated somewhere else, by force if necessary.

In the long run, I agree that the elven question should be delt with. But with Ferelden's limited resources, I think priorities have to be set and elves would rank low in my eyes.

One of the unseen epilogues for a city elf even notes that life may get so good and properous for elves in Denerium that other immigrate there and the community grows.  Now sure not all the humans like it (there were riots mentioned though there is no notable harm mentioned if your Warden is the elven Bann), but productive and prosperous immigrants can be a boon for the nation that recieves them.  And as Ferelden/Denerium is rebuilding it seems arguably more likely to benefit that usual (it may need the influx of workers).

Prosperus elves are not likely to exist.

I would agree 100% if you were talking about Dwarves. They have financial skills and a good working ethic. Elves in comparison, are not as useful however.

Of course, as I have argued in the past, Anora did not handle the situation well (what hsould have been done is move a lot of elves to other places and benefit from them as workers). But I do not see Alsitair's alternative, of wasting resources on them at such a time, as desirable.

To be blunt. Using force against a minority is a racist thing to do. Giving elves the option and means to relocate to somewhere more desirable is alright, but if they want to stay where they were born and raised nobody has any more right to remove them than they would have to remove YOU from your home.

Even if the elves were separated from humans and relocated to their own land. It would just end up as a repeat of Arlathan and The Dales.

Also how can Elves be "useful" when they are intentionally repressed? Humans deliberately bar them from bearing arms only allow them to work as cheap servants. And this repression stems from the fact that elves used to be slaves, nothing more. The only reason Dwarves are treated better and considered useful was because they had mutually beneficial relations with humans ever since the Ancient Tevinter days.

The Dalish Elves are a very productive people. Their wares are highly desired by humans and if people would wise up and allow all elves to do more, that productivity could increase and be more widely shared.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 27 novembre 2011 - 02:03 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

To be blunt. Using force against a minority is a racist thing to do. Giving elves the option and means to relocate to somewhere more desirable is alright, but if they want to stay where they were born and raised nobody has any more right to remove them than they would have to remove YOU from your home.

Istanbul became an imperial capital when Mehmet forced people to settle it.
Stuff like that is sometimes necessary. Call it whatever you want.

Even if the elves were separated from humans and relocated to their own land. It would just end up as a repeat of Arlathan and The Dales.

I never said they should have a seperate homeland. They would be relocated to other human cities, to alleviate the overpopulation in Denerim. And they can be used to help develop crucial regions like Amaranthine, Highever and Gwaren.

Also how can Elves be "useful" when they are intentionally repressed? Humans deliberately bar them from bearing arms only allow them to work as cheap servants. And this repression stems from the fact that elves used to be slaves, nothing more. The only reason Dwarves are treated better and considered useful was because they had mutually beneficial relations with humans ever since the Ancient Tevinter days.

No one forced the elves of Arlathan and then those of the Dales to be isolationist idiots. Dwarves proved their worth, elves did not yet (barring military use). 

Ironically, I think the Dalish elves are far more useful than city elves.
EDIT: and yea I am all for including the Dalish economically.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 novembre 2011 - 02:06 .

[WhiteKnyght]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No one forced the elves of Arlathan and then those of the Dales to be isolationist idiots. Dwarves proved their worth, elves did not yet (barring military use). 

Ironically, I think the Dalish elves are far more useful than city elves.
EDIT: and yea I am all for including the Dalish economically.

To be fair, the Arlathan elves did trade and do business for with humans for awhile, but humans had a negative effect on the overall health. And nothing justifies the humans invading and conquering their homelands and enslaving them all.  Would you sit next to a leper just so you wouldn't be called an isolationalist?

Blaming them for that is like blaming Ferelden for Orlais conquering and abusing them for 80 years.

As for the Dales, they were subjugated for not getting involved during the Second Blight and not allowing the Chantry into their lands. And neither of those things justify the lies the Chantry spread about them sacrificing humans and sending in their forces to murder and force their religion on them just for being different.