481 réponses à ce sujet

[pplr]

DA2 makes no mention of Anora at all for us to even know what she is doing. I doubt she would be that different in that regard. Mages are an important resource.

I would disagree with you there.  As important as mages can be I still see Anora refusing to aid or work with apostates as a way to avoid irking Templars.

She could do "some of that", but I would rather she do "all of it". Resources are limited and priorities have to be set. The elves are not that important to me or Ferelden.

Correction then, perhaps I should have said "all of it".

That's not saying much, Cailan is an imbecile. Of course Alistair would do better. 

But it does go to my point that the individual at any one time can be more important than the bloodline.

Orlais is not the only model for centralized government. In fact, like I have argued in the past, Ferelden has the mentality and history to forge an even better model, with effective rule of Law and a politically dominant middle class.

I haven't read that arugment so you may be right.  However increased contact with Orlais as it is (unreformed) may provide a bad example that some nobles in Ferelden could be tempted to follow.

Orlais might do well if Celene reforms it, which she seems to be doing. But I never argued for Ferelden to follow the Orlesian model, but to rather go beyond it in terms of social mobility and rule of law.

We agree then.

What needs to be done immediately is alleviate the overpopulation in Denerim, as the codices mention. To do that, half the elves should be relocated somewhere else, by force if necessary.

In the long run, I agree that the elven question should be delt with. But with Ferelden's limited resources, I think priorities have to be set and elves would rank low in my eyes.

"Overpopulation" is a POV more than anything else.  If the elves are productive and thus can either produce their own food or successfully trade for it then claims they suffer from "overpopulation" are wrongheaded.

Perhaps ditto with Denerim itself-things attributed to "overpopulation" may be less about then number of people there than how productive they happen to be (something that can change depending on the situation).

Prosperus elves are not likely to exist.

Doesn't mean they cannot exist, nor that they couldn't earn their own way.

I would agree 100% if you were talking about Dwarves. They have financial skills and a good working ethic. Elves in comparison, are not as useful however.

Of course, as I have argued in the past, Anora did not handle the situation well (what hsould have been done is move a lot of elves to other places and benefit from them as workers). But I do not see Alsitair's alternative, of wasting resources on them at such a time, as desirable.

Here are some of the quotes that don't appear due to an error.

With a new bann in the Landsmeet to represent them, the city-born elves found a better lot than ever.  New law gave the elves more trading rights and their own militia within the Alienage[./quote]

And if your Warden is the new bann.:

With (Warden's name) as their new voice, the elves become prosperous in a way they had never known... enought to draw elves from nearby lands, desperate for real hope.  The influx built ire among the human population and eventually resulted in a riot in Denerim, showing that as much as things change, they always stay the same.

Now that is both "prosperous elves" very much existing but it appears, when allowed, that they are capable of bulding themselves up-as you seem to expect dwarven immigrants to be likely to do.  Don't forget that elves are represented and ruled by humans who limit what productive activities they can undertake as well as sometimes abuse, rape, and likely loot them.

Now I admit that elves are not likely to become as skilled a smith as a dwarf but that does not mean they have no capabilities-and if allowed to (or even encouraged) to develop those capabilities they couldn't make a positive mark.

PS That is off the Dragon Age wiki-which could be wrong but isn't likely to be when it claims to be quoting text from within the game.

Modifié par pplr, 27 novembre 2011 - 02:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

To be fair, the Arlathan elves did trade and do business for with humans for awhile, but humans had a negative effect on the overall health. And nothing justifies the humans invading and conquering their homelands and enslaving them all.  Would you sit next to a leper just so you wouldn't be called an isolationalist?

Assuming that the myth is accurate.
I would sit next to a rising major power, yes, unless I know I can resist.

Blaming them for that is like blaming Ferelden for Orlais conquering and abusing them for 80 years.

Of course I blame Ferelden. Why wouldn't Orlais conquer them?
They are responsable for their own weakness.

As for the Dales, they were subjugated for not getting involved during the Second Blight and not allowing the Chantry into their lands. And neither of those things justify the lies the Chantry spread about them sacrificing humans and sending in their forces to murder and force their religion on them just for being different.

I really do not care about what is "justified" or not. I simply care about what is. I do not see elves having much worth that would warrant wasting precious resources on them at the moment.

[pplr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I really do not care about what is "justified" or not. I simply care about what is. I do not see elves having much worth that would warrant wasting precious resources on them at the moment.

But as I pointed out at least twice already.  It may not be using "precious resources" for city elves so much as allowing-even encouraging-them to become more productive.

It is a case where they can do better and are being kept down.

You seem to be approaching this as a zero-sum game when productivity (and thus resources available) can actually be increased.

And allowing or promoting that for city elves is part of that increased productivity.

Modifié par pplr, 27 novembre 2011 - 02:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

pplr wrote...

I would disagree with you there.  As important as mages can be I still see Anora refusing to aid or work with apostates as a way to avoid irking Templars.

She would certainly be more diplomatic about it yea, and I would be in favor of it. Alistair's brazen attitude does not impress me here.

Correction then, perhaps I should have said "all of it".

With what resources if she is going to redistribute everything equally amongst elves and humans, and spend as much money on repairing the alienage?

Sacrifices are necessary and I have not heard of one expample where a country develops without groups being thrown under the bus.

But it does go to my point that the individual at any one time can be more important than the bloodline.

Sure. I do not see that person as being Alistair.

"Overpopulation" is a POV more than anything else.  If the elves are productive and thus can either produce their own food or successfully trade for it then claims they suffer from "overpopulation" are wrongheaded.

It's not a pov. Resources and space are limited. Alienage purges happen because elves get overpopulated, lack the resources to sustain that overpopulation and lack the space to expand, so revolt, so get crushed. I would go find that codex, but I am too lazy to do it.

Doesn't mean they cannot exist, nor that they couldn't earn their own way.

Sure. Never denied that, I just don't see it as a priority.

I'd rather have that money spent on a unviersity and expanding commerce. Elves can wait.

And now I gtg. Cheers!

[KnightofPhoenix]

pplr wrote...
But as I pointed out at least twice already.  It may not be using "precious resources" for city elves so much as allowing-even encouraging-them to become more productive.

You need money to repair the alienage (hence why they revolt with Anora, she does not care to repair it), fod to feed them and to give them that opportunity, with a questionable return on investment both materially and time wise.

I am all for that when Ferelden establishes itself. Not when it's a backwater.

It is a zero sum game in that specific context (a devastated weak country). 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 novembre 2011 - 02:44 .

[Persephone]

Plaintiff wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
The most amicable way to go is to marry Alistair and Anora. Best of both worlds.

It makes sense politically, but I'd feel bad for shackling my broski to that frigid gorgon.

"Frigid" gorgon? Wow.... sweet misogyny there.  <_< But hey, who cares about sexism?

As for Anora refusing to see to the future because she won't marry and produce an heir.... Elizabeth I. did the same and GEE, she did better than any male ruler of her time.

Where did I say men can't be frigid?

But yes, I stand by what I said. Anora is a frigid person, in pretty much everything she does. And I don't see anything that makes her a better ruler than Alistair or Cailan. Different, maybe, but not better. Especially since I consider the advancement of civil rights much more important than advancing Ferelden's status relative to other provinces. Though I don't see why she couldn't manage both, if she's so super-duper awesome.

I find it especially hilarious that she thinks of herself as the real brains behind Cailan, since it turns out Cailan had plans for Ferelden that clearly did not include her.

Elizabeth I. didn't fail completely at keeping her country under control. I couldn't care less which one of the two candidates is more likely to start producing squawling snot-faucets. My only concern is that Anora had her chance to show what she could do, with or without a man, and she totally ****ing blew it. Alistair might screw things up, but compared to someone who already has, I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

How do you know she is frigid at all? I doubt you ever got to know her THAT well. And considering what the word frigid means, I stand by calling you misogynistic and sexist. Because nothing she does has anything to do with anything where that word may be rightfully used. Are you calling her cold or something? How about using a word that doesn't stand for a woman being incapable of being sexually aroused, eh?

I see lots:

She kept the country together for 5 years while Cailan played the princeling for one. Even Eamon agrees there and he despises her.

Ferelden is NOT a province btw. And civil rights are all good and fine, until these noble goals are swallowed up by the Orlesian invasion that is mention if Alistair is king but isn't if Anora is queen. Political astuteness, training and experience will win out over any "Let's make the world a better place for everybody!" fairy tale in the long run.

Yes, Cailan was all "Oooooh, glorious!" at the idea of being emperor and he was manipulated by Celene and Eamon. Great plans indeed. Only made me despise the brat more.

How did she blow it? By facing an uprising and winning in the end? Many rulers did, including the greatest. She builds a university, keeps the peace, keeps Orlais and the nobility in check.... no small feat. And one Alistair fails to accomplish. "Giving the benefit of the doubt" to an untrained, inexperienced and self-centered boy is too risky for my Wardens.

Alistair either gets hitched to Anora or Anora rules alone.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

pplr wrote...
That doesn't make her power hungry, just less of a visionary than Alistair (who wants to help mages, elves, and others who haven't gotten a good situation in life).

Building a university, improving the economy and propelling Ferelden into the international arena, among the ranks of nations that matter, is far more visionary than helping a small minority which uses are limited, in my eyes. 

Plus, Anora is as willing to help mages as Alistair.

And once again KOP gets right to the point while I rambled on and on. THIS!!!:happy:

[pplr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


She would certainly be more diplomatic about it yea, and I would be in favor of it. Alistair's brazen attitude does not impress me here.

Thats just because you don't like him. 

I don't remember at this moment if he openly declared to Meredith that he was helping apostates or not.  But I think he may have avoided that realizing that even as king he didn't have to power to do it openly and was restricted to being relatively quiet about it.


With what resources if she is going to redistribute everything equally amongst elves and humans, and spend as much money on repairing the alienage?

Sacrifices are necessary and I have not heard of one expample where a country develops without groups being thrown under the bus.

That explains a lot.

Now while the USA has developed in many ways and for many reasons go bad to the slavery days back in the pre-Confederacy South.

Slaves (black) were not allowed to learn how to read and write in may places.  Efforts to teach them were actively discouraged and attempts to learn by slaves sometimes punished.

Now if you force workers to be illiterate doesn't that strike you as potentially limiting how productive they can be?

If elves in Denerim are banned from trading and discouraged from engaging in various crafts doesn't that strike you as limiting how productive they can be?

Before you decide the elves have become overpopulated and are using too many resources it makes sense to give them a chance to develop resources of their own.

It's not a pov. Resources and space are limited.

You sound like Ehrlich or Malthus.  Do you know that Ehrlich lost most of the bets he made against economists who felt he misunderstood how resource use works.

Doesn't mean they cannot exist, nor that they couldn't earn their own way.

Sure. Never denied that, I just don't see it as a priority. 

Then don't make denying them a chance to earn their own way a priority-some humans have been doing that and it is an unproductive and/or outright destructive use (waste) of efforts which you seem to be willing to continue.

And now you leave-I do hope to continue this when you return.

You strike me as having too much Ehrlich in your thoughts as to how you figure Denerim would work.

Modifié par pplr, 27 novembre 2011 - 03:09 .

[pplr]

Persephone wrote...

And once again KOP gets right to the point while I rambled on and on. THIS!!!:happy:

Don't forget that I pointed out to KoP that Anora may be too cautious (even cowardly if I was being hard on her) and not work with mages.

Plus each and every one of those positives-such as the trade and the plans for a university-may well happen if she marries Alistair.

The two of them are praised for their efforts at rebuilding Ferelden and it is hardly unthinkable that those could be among them.

[WhiteKnyght]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

pplr wrote...

I would disagree with you there.  As important as mages can be I still see Anora refusing to aid or work with apostates as a way to avoid irking Templars.

She would certainly be more diplomatic about it yea, and I would be in favor of it. Alistair's brazen attitude does not impress me here.

I don't see his attitude as brazen. He's trying to keep the promise he made to his best friend after the latter slew the Archdemon and saved Ferelden. Also in Merediths opinion, anyone who thinks of mages as anything but dangerous is brazen. And let's not forget, Alistair had pretty good foresight about Meredith considering what happened at the Gallows.

Plus, freeing people who have been imprisoned and abused for a thousand years is the ethically right thing to do. If we had more leaders who thought about the right thing over their own careers, our own world wouldn't be as messed up as it is.

Also considering what happens in the future, proving himself a friend to mages likely gives him a powerful ally when they free themselves. Having lots of mages mixed into his troops would give him a very formidable army. And arguably a lot of the people he shows generosity and benevolence to can pay off in the long run.

Mages = A strong advantage against enemy troops. And his normal troops can protect the mages from Templars--While Alistair can pass his training onto every sword wielding soldier he has to make them completely immune to magical enemies.

Elves = Sharp eyesight and better night vision makes them keen archers(Remember the Night Elves from TST) and snipers. Not to mention his possible connections to the Dalish can provide him with even more support and resources.

Dwarves = While Orzammar does business with everybody, being free of Chantry restrictions on Lyrium trade would be very appealing. And Alistair's involvment in settling their election would gain him support. Meaning his men would have access to top-notch weapons and armor.

[Persephone]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Anora is a cold woman. She's cunning and manipulative. That makes for a good politician but not a good leader. As David Gaider said, she's her father's daughter and that's the most important thing to remember.

All the extremes that Loghain went to in Origins. Lies, backstabbing, desertion, slave trading, outright sadism towards anyone who spoke against him, and striking first out of suspicion and paranoia -- Anora would do in a heartbeat if SHE felt she had to.

In some ways, she's worse than her father. Considering she sells him out to die for undermining her authority.

That's twistings things quite a bit.

 First bit in italics: History tells us otherwise.

Second bit in italics: Highly debatable, given that the retreat at Ostagar isn't a betrayal by default to everybody. And sadism? Do you mean Howe?

And I very much doubt Anora would repeat her father's blunders, she is far too subtle for that.

Third bit in italics: That is blatantly untrue as she does NOT "sell him out to die". Nor is she THAT petty or cold.

[Persephone]

pplr wrote...

Persephone wrote...

And once again KOP gets right to the point while I rambled on and on. THIS!!!:happy:

Don't forget that I pointed out to KoP that Anora may be too cautious (even cowardly if I was being hard on her) and not work with mages.

Plus each and every one of those positives-such as the trade and the plans for a university-may well happen if she marries Alistair.

The two of them are praised for their efforts at rebuilding Ferelden and it is hardly unthinkable that those could be among them.

Oh, I saw that. I do believe that marrying Alistair to Anora is the best, most balanced outcome. To me, it's canon.:happy:

[WhiteKnyght]

Persephone wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Anora is a cold woman. She's cunning and manipulative. That makes for a good politician but not a good leader. As David Gaider said, she's her father's daughter and that's the most important thing to remember.

All the extremes that Loghain went to in Origins. Lies, backstabbing, desertion, slave trading, outright sadism towards anyone who spoke against him, and striking first out of suspicion and paranoia -- Anora would do in a heartbeat if SHE felt she had to.

In some ways, she's worse than her father. Considering she sells him out to die for undermining her authority.

That's twistings things quite a bit.

 First bit in italics: History tells us otherwise.

Second bit in italics: Highly debatable, given that the retreat at Ostagar isn't a betrayal by default to everybody. And sadism? Do you mean Howe?

And I very much doubt Anora would repeat her father's blunders, she is far too subtle for that.

Third bit in italics: That is blatantly untrue as she does NOT "sell him out to die". Nor is she THAT petty or cold.

No it's not twisting things.

First bit. History is written by the victors, and they don't always write truthfully.

Second bit. Loghain was the one who made that strategy for Ostagar went back on it even though he proudly calls himself a strategist by trade to the Warden.

As for the sadism, I'm referring to the news of the civil war with the Bannorn. How he had his men execute a noblewoman for burning her fields so Loghain couldn't have them. And his outright policy where all who disagree with him would be put down. For all his fear and hate of Orlais, he does a good job emulating them.

Third bit: Is completely true. If the Warden agrees to support her she does nothing for her father. She talks as badly of him as she can before Ferelden's nobility and doesn't even ask the Warden or Alistair to spare his life. She knew that he might have to die and was willing to go for it.

And let's not forget, if the Warden doesn't agree to support her, she puts a knife in his back just as fast and spouts a load of BS.

[pplr]

Persephone wrote...

Oh, I saw that. I do believe that marrying Alistair to Anora is the best, most balanced outcome. To me, it's canon.:happy:

Agreed.

[WhiteKnyght]

pplr wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Oh, I saw that. I do believe that marrying Alistair to Anora is the best, most balanced outcome. To me, it's canon.:happy:

Agreed.

Yes it certainly is the most amicable way to go.

In my canon playthroughs I like to do things the best way possible.

I save the Circle, Save Connor with the aid of the mages, End the curse, destroy the Anvil and place Bhelen on the throne, destroy Kolgrim and his cult and spare Genetivi(if you spare the High Dragon the ashes will just disappear and wont be exploited), and make Alistair king with either Anora or a female Cousland as his queen. And perform the Dark Ritual unless I marry Alistair to Anora and recruit Loghain as a human sacrifice.

As for Awakening. I've found it's best to move troops to the fields since Amaranthine can be saved personally. Hire the Dark Wolf to end the conspiracy. As well as make sure to get all the Keep upgrades. And get all the Warden recruits and kill the Architect.

Putting Bhelen on the throne is about the grayest area I go with on my canons. The way I see it, Harrowmont and all the other deshyrs are just as slick and dirty and are just more subtle. But Bhelen is willing to break away from Orzammar's self-destructive traditions.

[Plaintiff]

Persephone wrote...
How do you know she is frigid at all? I doubt you ever got to know her THAT well. And considering what the word frigid means, I stand by calling you misogynistic and sexist. Because nothing she does has anything to do with anything where that word may be rightfully used. Are you calling her cold or something? How about using a word that doesn't stand for a woman being incapable of being sexually aroused, eh?

It was a throwaway comment, not intended to be taken even slightly seriously. If  wanted to be rude about it, I would say what I actually feel; that Anora is a dumb **** and she can go **** herself with a fistful of splinters

She kept the country together for 5 years while Cailan played the princeling for one. Even Eamon agrees there and he despises her.

Can you give me a quote? I don't remember Eamon saying any such thing. He admits that she's politically astute (which is not the same thing at all), but makes no mention of any specific instance and Anora herself is equally vague, with nothing to lose and everything to gain by playing up the power of her position to the Warden, who is currently her only potential ally.

Ferelden is NOT a province btw. And civil rights are all good and fine, until these noble goals are swallowed up by the Orlesian invasion that is mention if Alistair is king but isn't if Anora is queen. Political astuteness, training and experience will win out over any "Let's make the world a better place for everybody!" fairy tale in the long run.

Country, whatever, I have no interest in debating terminology. Orlesian invasion being mentioned is not the same thing as Orlesian invasion happening. Not to forget, that mention of Orlesian invasion doesn't come until a full seven years later, and probably has a lot to do with Loghain ****ing up the deal Cailan and Celene were working on.

Just because invasion isn't mentioned with Anora as queen doesn't mean it's not a distinct possibility. If you didn't crown Alistair, then you have no reliable intel about how well Ferelden is doing at all.

Yes, Cailan was all "Oooooh, glorious!" at the idea of being emperor and he was manipulated by Celene and Eamon. Great plans indeed. Only made me despise the brat more.

Who says Eamon had anything to do with it (he wanted Cailan to find a different wife, he did not push him towards Celene), and who are we to decide that Celene's intentions weren't genuine? Seven years later, she and Alistair (if crowned) are still working to keep the peace between the two nations. Some Orlesians want to take back Ferelden, Celene is, to all appearances, not one of them. Some Americans probably feel that the entire Middle East should be nuked into a desert of glass, but it would be wrong to say that everyone feels that way, and even stupider to say that it will definitely happen.

Cailan isn't wrong or stupid to broker an alliance with Celene. There's no reason to suppose it will go badly. It's been thirty years since Ferelden's war with Orlais. It was fought by their parents, who are now long-dead, and has little do with either of them. Thirty years after World War II, nobody was ****ing about the Germans. Thirty years after the Vietnam War, nobody was ****ing about the communists. There are Orlesians living and working in Ferelden, likely they engage in trade discussions and all other manners of international politics. Loghain is the only person in the entire damn game who seems incapable of letting it go. Everybody else thinks he's crazy. Nobody in Ferelden is worried about a (completely hypothetical) invasion from Orlais when they're being overrun by Darkspawn right now.

Even Anora says "My father is doing what he thinks is best". At no point does she say that she subscribes to his opinions.

How did she blow it? By facing an uprising and winning in the end? Many rulers did, including the greatest. She builds a university, keeps the peace, keeps Orlais and the nobility in check.... no small feat. And one Alistair fails to accomplish. "Giving the benefit of the doubt" to an untrained, inexperienced and self-centered boy is too risky for my Wardens.

She blew it by ****footing around for a year and then getting herself locked up by blundering into an obvious trap. She failed to keep control of her father, she failed to mediate with the other lords to maintain peace, she didn't even try toget them to rally under her banner. She didn't "win" against an uprising, she's barely even involved. Loghain either wins the vote at the Landsmeet or the Warden does and in the end Anora only rules based on the decision of the Warden. The Warden does all the work. Anora does nothing. They might as well have called her "Princess Peach McZelda, except she's a total ****".

I value Alistair's compassion and integrity over Anora's supposed "experience". If her experience is in double-dealing and backstabbing like her dear old dad, then why should I support her? If I can't trust her with a cup of coffee, why should I give her an entire ****ing country? Even if the game of politics is full of cheaters, there's no reason I should buy into that.

Alistair isn't self-centred, and I don't know where you got the impression that he is. Thinking about others is pretty much all he ever does or talks about. If you're referring to wanting to see Loghain dead, I fail to see how that's selfish of him at all. Loghain is a terrible, terrible person and quite apart from the personal wrong he's done to Alistair (not to mention hounding you for a year), you spend a substantial part of the game investigating the different ways that Loghain has ****ed over everyone else in the country, and cleaning up after the mess he made.

Why is it wrong for Alistair to want to see Loghain dead after all he's done, but Anora is allowed carte blanche for all her violent and morally grey choices because they're "pragmatic" and "smart"? Seems to me that, given his track record, cutting off Loghain's head is pretty ****ing pragmatic. The man is clearly an enemy to Alistair and the Warden. Without metagaming, there's no reason to suppose he can be trusted. Having the urge to fight the Darkspawn won't stop him from stabbing you in your sleep.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 novembre 2011 - 05:24 .

[Persephone]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

No it's not twisting things.

First bit. History is written by the victors, and they don't always write truthfully.

Second bit. Loghain was the one who made that strategy for Ostagar went back on it even though he proudly calls himself a strategist by trade to the Warden.

As for the sadism, I'm referring to the news of the civil war with the Bannorn. How he had his men execute a noblewoman for burning her fields so Loghain couldn't have them. And his outright policy where all who disagree with him would be put down. For all his fear and hate of Orlais, he does a good job emulating them.

Third bit: Is completely true. If the Warden agrees to support her she does nothing for her father. She talks as badly of him as she can before Ferelden's nobility and doesn't even ask the Warden or Alistair to spare his life. She knew that he might have to die and was willing to go for it.

And let's not forget, if the Warden doesn't agree to support her, she puts a knife in his back just as fast and spouts a load of BS.

Oh yes, it most certainly is.

1) And? Doesn't change the fact that the greatest rulers history knows were clever, shrewd, manipulative, pragmatic and ruthless where it mattered.


2) Strategies may go awry under the best of circumstances. A general worth his salt adapts his strategy/saves what remains. That is exactly what Loghain did at Ostagar. Never mind that the DELAYED beacon had a hand in the plan going awry.

3) I do not care for "news" and plain gossip. The Bannorn began the civil war, reaping the consequences of that is harsh but realistic.

4) If the Warden agrees to support her, you can ask her about her father and she will tell you that she wants him to live, not die. In fact, if you tell her that you will kill him, she will not support you at all. No, she isn't willing to go for it at all, but in her situation, you think she would BEG? I think it is bloody dignified that neither Loghain NOR Anora beg and plead.

As for her "betraying" the Warden.....point me to ANY ruler who'll say "You want to depose/eliminate me AND murder my Dad too? Sure, I'm with ya!". Common sense and logic DEFY such a reaction.

[Persephone]

Plaintiff wrote...

Persephone wrote...
How do you know she is frigid at all? I doubt you ever got to know her THAT well. And considering what the word frigid means, I stand by calling you misogynistic and sexist. Because nothing she does has anything to do with anything where that word may be rightfully used. Are you calling her cold or something? How about using a word that doesn't stand for a woman being incapable of being sexually aroused, eh?

It was a throwaway comment, not intended to be taken even slightly seriously. If  wanted to be rude about it, I would say what I actually feel; that Anora is a dumb **** and she can go **** herself with a fistful of splinters

Thanks for confirming your sexism further. No more doubts left on my end.

Alistair isn't self-centred, and I don't know where
you got the impression that he is. Thinking about others is pretty much
all he ever does or talks about. If you're referring to wanting to see
Loghain dead, I fail to see how that's selfish of him at all. Loghain is
a terrible, terrible person and quite apart from the personal wrong
he's done to Alistair (not to mention hounding you for a year), you
spend a substantial part of the game investigating the different ways
that Loghain has ****ed over everyone else in the country, and cleaning up after the mess he made.

Why
is it wrong for Alistair to want to see Loghain dead after all he's
done, but Anora is allowed carte blanche for all her violent and morally
grey choices because they're "pragmatic" and "smart"? Seems to me that,
given his track record, cutting off Loghain's head is pretty ****ing
pragmatic. The man is clearly an enemy to Alistair and the
Warden. Without metagaming, there's no reason to suppose he can be
trusted. Having the urge to fight the Darkspawn won't stop him from
stabbing you in your sleep.

If you can't see how self centered Alistair is (Asking the HN "Have you lost anyonr lately?" or his irrational behavior re: Connor&Isolde, his tantrum at the Landsmeet) or how fallacious the argument about "personal wrongs" is..... and the ludicrous suggestion that Loghain would kill his own Commander (To whom he owes his life) ....then this argument is futile. Loghain would have NOTHING to gain from killing you at this point. Logic again. And yes, BECAUSE they are pragmatic, smart and grounded in reason while Alistair's tantrum is just that, a vengeful tantrum that serves nobody but his own vengeful side. A side I refuse to adhere to. And your constant swearing doesn't help your case at all.

Modifié par Persephone, 27 novembre 2011 - 05:28 .

[Plaintiff]

Persephone wrote...
Thanks for confirming your sexism further. No more doubts left on my end.

I dislike and insult a woman who you yourself admit is manipulative and dishonest, so clearly I'm a misogynist. That makes perfect sense.

There are plenty of strong, confident women in the game who don't deserve a punch in the face. Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne are all great female characters. And Shale. You don't get much more powerful or confident than Shale.

I'd happily put any one of them on the throne over Anora. I'd put Shale's pet rock on the throne over Anora. Basically, anyone who did more than Anora to combat the Blight and unite Ferelden (ie, everybody) deserves a shot at the crown.

If you can't see how self centered Alistair is (Asking the HN "Have you lost anyonr lately?"

Oh noes! He asked a personal question! Call the guard!

How dare he try to bond with someone over the common issue of loss. I think I'm going to be sick.

or his irrational behavior re: Connor&Isolde,

And he gets upset by child murder and blood magic? Two issues that are controversial not just in Thedas but on this very forum? The insolence!

his tantrum at the Landsmeet) or how fallacious the argument about "personal wrongs" is..... and the ludicrous suggestion that Loghain would kill his own Commander (To whom he owes his life) ....then this argument is futile. Loghain would have NOTHING to gain from killing you at this point. Logic again. And yes, BECAUSE they are pragmatic, smart and grounded in reason while Alistair's tantrum is just that, a vengeful tantrum that serves nobody but his own vengeful side. A side I refuse to adhere to. And your constant swearing doesn't help your case at all.

Loghain is a delusional paranoiac and a danger to himself and others. The moment with Anora before his execution is probably the only lucid thought he's had since before Ostagar. He'd probably set you on fire if the pixies told him you were a secret Orlesian. Loghain has committed crimes against his entire country, he's dragged it into civil war, he's threatened lords, stolen their land, murdered them and allied wtih slavers. Death is better than he deserves. Why not give him a cake while you're inducting him into the order? Nevermind that he's old and not as capable a warrior as he used to be. Not by a longshot.

I already believe that Loghain deliberately allowed Cailan to die, so I see no reason why I should believe that he gave half a crap about Duncan.

My swearing has nothing to do with the validity of my points, all of which you ignored. Answer them or don't reply to me.

Any warden who would put Anora on the throne is a moron. She's not only shown herself to be incompetent, but she's totally willing to lie to you or throw you under a bus. As an individual, I have a vested interest in maintaining a certain measure of control, at least until the Blight is ended, and so my first concern is how much I can trust the person I'm crowning. Having travelled with him for a year, I have complete and total certainty that Alistair's priorities match up with mine. I can't say the same of Anora at all.

So Alistair gets to be king and Anora can go to Hell.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 novembre 2011 - 06:30 .

[Persephone]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]Persephone wrote...
Thanks for confirming your sexism further. No more doubts left on my end.[/quote]
I dislike and insult a woman who you yourself admit is manipulative and dishonest, so clearly I'm a misogynist. That makes perfect sense.

[/quote]

Insulting any woman on that level is disgusting.

[quote]There are plenty of strong, confident women in the game who don't
deserve a punch in the face. Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne are all great
female characters. And Shale. You don't get much more powerful or
confident than Shale.

I'd happily put any one of them on the throne over Anora. I'd put Shale's pet rock on
the throne over Anora. Basically, anyone who did more than
Anora to combat the Blight and unite Ferelden (ie, everybody) deserves a
shot at the crown.[/quote]

Selective memory? Dear Morri is just as ruthless, dishonest and manipulative as Anora, if not more so. Leliana has her bardic self ready to come out, all it takes is a confirmation by the Warden that it's ok. A bard basically lies, betrays, kills and manipulates for a living. Wynne and her far fetched idealism & her nagging I couldn't care less for. Doesn't qualify her to rule. Agreed about Shale, love her. But not ruler material either.

AS for the bit in italics: Hyperbole never makes for a convincing argument.

[quote]

[quote]If you can't see how self centered Alistair is (Asking the HN "Have you lost anyonr lately?"[/quote]
Oh noes! He asked a personal question! Call the guard!

How dare he try to bond with someone over the common issue of loss. I think I'm going to be sick.[/quote]

Point, MISSING IT. He knows perfectly well what happened to the HN's family. And yet he chooses THAT question to "bond"? 

[quote]
[quote]or his irrational behavior re: Connor&Isolde,[/quote]
And
he gets upset by child murder and blood magic? Two issues that are
controversial not just in Thedas but on this very forum? The insolence![/quote]

It is a decision he himself suggested and supported to begin with. So he better not come down on me for that.
[quote]
[/quote]
[quote]Loghain
is a delusional paranoiac and a danger to himself and others. The
moment with Anora before his execution is probably the only lucid
thought he's had since before Ostagar. He'd probably set you on fire if
the pixies told him you were a secret Orlesian. Loghain has committed
crimes against his entire country, he's dragged it into civil war, he's
threatened lords, stolen their land, murdered them and allied wtih
slavers. Death is better than he deserves. Why not give him a cake while
you're inducting him into the order? Nevermind that he's old and not as
capable a warrior as he used to be. Not by a longshot.[/quote]

Both Riordan and the game seem to disagree. Funny thing, that. Never mind his "paranoia" being confirmed by DAII. And the hyperbole again.... Yeesh.

[quote]I already
believe that Loghain deliberately allowed Cailan to die, so I see no
reason why I should believe that he gave half a crap about Duncan.[/quote]

And why should he risk his entire army to save two incompetent people? 

[quote]My swearing has nothing to do with the validity of my points, all of which you ignored. Answer them or don't reply to me.[/quote]

Pot, meet kettle. Last time I checked, hyperbole, misogyny and the like did not qualify as arguments.

[quote]Any
warden who would put Anora on the throne is a moron. She's not only
shown herself to be incompetent, but she's totally willing to lie to you
or throw you under a bus. As an individual, I have a vested interest in
maintaining a certain measure of control, at least until the Blight is
ended, and so my first concern is how much I can trust the person I'm
crowning. Having travelled with him for a year, I have complete and
total certainty that Alistair's priorities match up with mine. I can't
say the same of Anora at all.

So Alistair gets to be king and Anora can go to Hell.[/quote]

Now that does make your motives pretty clear. Reeks of hypocrisy to me. And if you think any Warden doing something you refuse to do is a "moron", it just shows your inability to show tolerance for the opinions and decisions of others. Your vendetta against Anora is a tad extreme and your leniency toward Alistair is too much of a risk to benefit a country in turmoil.

As I said before, I usually make them marry, recruit Loghain and defeat the Blight without him. Someone saying "Have fun defeating the blight or WHATEVER!" if they do not get their way does not inspire MY confidence in the slightest.

And that's that. We clearly disagree in every way possible. Just shows how great a game DAO is.

[WhiteKnyght]

Persephone wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

No it's not twisting things.

First bit. History is written by the victors, and they don't always write truthfully.

Second bit. Loghain was the one who made that strategy for Ostagar went back on it even though he proudly calls himself a strategist by trade to the Warden.

As for the sadism, I'm referring to the news of the civil war with the Bannorn. How he had his men execute a noblewoman for burning her fields so Loghain couldn't have them. And his outright policy where all who disagree with him would be put down. For all his fear and hate of Orlais, he does a good job emulating them.

Third bit: Is completely true. If the Warden agrees to support her she does nothing for her father. She talks as badly of him as she can before Ferelden's nobility and doesn't even ask the Warden or Alistair to spare his life. She knew that he might have to die and was willing to go for it.

And let's not forget, if the Warden doesn't agree to support her, she puts a knife in his back just as fast and spouts a load of BS.

Oh yes, it most certainly is.

1) And? Doesn't change the fact that the greatest rulers history knows were clever, shrewd, manipulative, pragmatic and ruthless where it mattered.


2) Strategies may go awry under the best of circumstances. A general worth his salt adapts his strategy/saves what remains. That is exactly what Loghain did at Ostagar. Never mind that the DELAYED beacon had a hand in the plan going awry.

3) I do not care for "news" and plain gossip. The Bannorn began the civil war, reaping the consequences of that is harsh but realistic.

4) If the Warden agrees to support her, you can ask her about her father and she will tell you that she wants him to live, not die. In fact, if you tell her that you will kill him, she will not support you at all. No, she isn't willing to go for it at all, but in her situation, you think she would BEG? I think it is bloody dignified that neither Loghain NOR Anora beg and plead.

As for her "betraying" the Warden.....point me to ANY ruler who'll say "You want to depose/eliminate me AND murder my Dad too? Sure, I'm with ya!". Common sense and logic DEFY such a reaction.

1) I wouldn't exactly call them great. Just because they are well remembered doesn't mean they were good leaders. A true leader has a sense of integrity and morality. Anora and Loghain have none.

2) Alistair and the Warden had an hour to light the beacon. You can get to the top of the Tower of Ishal in less than that. You can tell from Loghain's tones at the war meeting that he made his mind up the moment Cailan choose to stand by the Grey Wardens rather than stay behind with him.

Not to mention he was making 'preparations' before Ostagar even happened. He may not have meant for Cailan to die, but he was certainly going to try to push him into doing things his way and was neutralizing any other advisors who would argue against him.

He saved Jowan from the Templars and sent him to poison Eamon to get him out of the way for a little while.

He had Howe delay Bryce Cousland.(But Howe chose to slaughter them for his own advancement)

And I don't think Arl Urien even made it to Ostagar. His death's circumstances are murky though.

3) Well when someone who left with their king and returned alone and said 'I'm regent now, do what I say or die' leaves them little option. Even when there are other legitimate heirs whom the landsmeet has a right to choose.

Loghain was loved because he and Maric ended Orlais' cruelty towards them.

Maric -- whom Loghain speaks of like he was the wisest man he knew
-- said that they weren't fighting the war to put Calenhad's blood on
the throne. They were fighting to get Meghren off of it. Because if he wasn't such a tyrant, it wouldn't matter who ruled.

But Loghain was pretty much recreating the Orlesian occupation in his own image. He may not have been as disgusting as Meghren was, but he let Howe be his second in command and that guy was like Meghren and Severan combined.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 27 novembre 2011 - 05:37 .

[Persephone]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1) I wouldn't exactly call them great. Just because they are well remembered doesn't mean they were good leaders. A true leader has a sense of integrity and morality. Anora and Loghain have none.

2) Alistair and the Warden had an hour to light the beacon. You can get to the top of the Tower of Ishal in less than that. You can tell from Loghain's tones at the war meeting that he made his mind up the moment Cailan choose to stand by the Grey Wardens rather than stay behind with him.

Not to mention he was making 'preparations' before Ostagar even happened. He may not have meant for Cailan to die, but he was certainly going to try to push him into doing things his way and was neutralizing any other advisors who would argue against him.

He saved Jowan from the Templars and sent him to poison Eamon to get him out of the way for a little while.

He had Howe delay Bryce Cousland.(But Howe chose to slaughter them for his own advancement)

And I don't think Arl Urien even made it to Ostagar. His death's circumstances are murky though.

3) Well when someone who left with their king and returned alone and said 'I'm regent now, do what I say or die' leaves them little option. Even when there are other legitimate heirs whom the landsmeet has a right to choose.

Loghain was loved because he and Maric ended Orlais' cruelty towards them.

Maric -- whom Loghain speaks of like he was the wisest man he knew
-- said that they weren't fighting the war to put Calenhad's blood on
the throne. They were fighting to get Meghren off of it. Because if he wasn't such a tyrant, it wouldn't matter who ruled.

But Loghain was pretty much recreating the Orlesian occupation in his own image. He may not have been as disgusting as Meghren was, but he let Howe be his second in command and that guy was like Meghren and Severan combined.

1) I'd call them more than great. Gimme an Elizabeth I., Augustus, Catherine the Great over Henry VI of England ANY time. (Much like Cailan, he was a let down after his father's rule) And both Loghain and Anora have integrity. Want someone who has none? Check out Henry VIII.  Loghain's lack of ruthlessness is what causes his downfall. (Right along with his heavy handed politics)

2) GAME time, not real time. Alistair himself says that you missed the signal. As for Loghain's resignation at Cailan's refusal to hear reason....yes, it's there. I do not see it as an immediate leap to what happens later however.

3) Howe did not act on Loghain's orders in ANY capacity. That has been confirmed.

4) What legitimate heirs? An untrained bastard son of questionable parentage nobody even knew about?

5) Loghain's deal with Howe was a foregone conclusion after Howe stormed Highever. Loghain doesn't like it one bit but allies are allies. Should he have reined Howe in? Surely. But I do not blame Howe's sick little brain on Loghain....for the most part.

Modifié par Persephone, 27 novembre 2011 - 07:32 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Persephone wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1) I wouldn't exactly call them great. Just because they are well remembered doesn't mean they were good leaders. A true leader has a sense of integrity and morality. Anora and Loghain have none.

2) Alistair and the Warden had an hour to light the beacon. You can get to the top of the Tower of Ishal in less than that. You can tell from Loghain's tones at the war meeting that he made his mind up the moment Cailan choose to stand by the Grey Wardens rather than stay behind with him.

Not to mention he was making 'preparations' before Ostagar even happened. He may not have meant for Cailan to die, but he was certainly going to try to push him into doing things his way and was neutralizing any other advisors who would argue against him.

He saved Jowan from the Templars and sent him to poison Eamon to get him out of the way for a little while.

He had Howe delay Bryce Cousland.(But Howe chose to slaughter them for his own advancement)

And I don't think Arl Urien even made it to Ostagar. His death's circumstances are murky though.

3) Well when someone who left with their king and returned alone and said 'I'm regent now, do what I say or die' leaves them little option. Even when there are other legitimate heirs whom the landsmeet has a right to choose.

Loghain was loved because he and Maric ended Orlais' cruelty towards them.

Maric -- whom Loghain speaks of like he was the wisest man he knew
-- said that they weren't fighting the war to put Calenhad's blood on
the throne. They were fighting to get Meghren off of it. Because if he wasn't such a tyrant, it wouldn't matter who ruled.

But Loghain was pretty much recreating the Orlesian occupation in his own image. He may not have been as disgusting as Meghren was, but he let Howe be his second in command and that guy was like Meghren and Severan combined.

1) I'd call them more than great. Gimme an Elizabeth I., Augustus, Catherine the Great over Henry VI of England ANY time. (Much like Cailan, he was a let down after his father's rule) And both Loghain and Anora have integrity. Want someone who has none? Check out Henry VIII.  Loghain's lack of ruthlessness is what causes his downfall. (Right along with his heavy handed politics)

4) What legitimate heirs? An untrained bastard son of questionable parentage nobody even knew about?

1) Look at it this way, if Loghain was even more ruthless than he was and managed to eliminate the Warden and Alistair before the Landsmeet--Ferelden's destruction would be guaranteed. You heard Riordan. Only a Grey Warden can kill the Archdemon and unless it dies, darkspawn pop up in almost limitless amounts.

Loghain may not have been aware, but every action he(and Anora if she sides with her father) is detrimental to Ferelden's well being.

Also I'm aware of Henry VIII. But Loghain would have to have no heart in his chest to do what he did to Cailan. It's not just because he was Maric's son, but he was also Rowan's son(Who Loghain truly loved). Rowan went back to save Loghain when Alr Rendorn wanted to pull an Ostagar on him. He didn't have to save the army, but he could have at least saved Cailan, who Rowan loved more than anything, out of respect.

4) Eamon and Teagan are legitimate heirs. They are Queen Rowan's brothers and thus they have as much right to run for the throne as Loghain has.

And don't forget that Maric was as untested as Alistair was at the beginning. And they even have remarkably similar attitudes and personalities. And like Maric, Alistair had the help of good friends and wise counsel.

Loghain can even admit that Alistair was like Maric right before his head gets lopped off.

As for nobody knowing about Alistair. Eamon and Teagan knew, Loghain, Cailan, and Anora knew. And it's arguable that Maric would entrust the secret to other confidants for emergency reasons.(Kinda like Uriel Septim did with Martin in Oblivion.)

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 28 novembre 2011 - 12:57 .

[pplr]

I think it wasn't a lack of ruthlessness that allowed the Warden to survive, it was that Loghain was busy.

Both he and Howe would have been happy to run the warden & Alistair through. It just so happens that when your trying to seize power and then consolidate it there are a number of things on your plate and ruthless or no things may slip through.

Now I'm not going to say Loghain's fear or even hate for Chevaliers cannot be understood. But either he, Howe, or both try to have remaining wardens rounded up and killed (or tortured if imprisoned as Howe does)-its just that you can outfight the henchmen you come across.

Even if Calian was a fool Loghain knows the wardens didn't kill him and yet he sets them up to take the blame-with unhealthy consequences for any his men can take down.

EDIT:

Yes I know that a female knight of Loghain's puts you in prison rather than kills you outright but I give her credit for that-a desire to do things how she sees as proper.  Perhaps this is why you can talk her into standing aside at the Landsmeet (getting her to face that Loghain has not been proper).

Modifié par pplr, 29 novembre 2011 - 02:41 .

[WhiteKnyght]

pplr wrote...
Yes I know that a female knight of Loghain's puts you in prison rather than kills you outright but I give her credit for that-a desire to do things how she sees as proper.  Perhaps this is why you can talk her into standing aside at the Landsmeet (getting her to face that Loghain has not been proper).

Not quite.

With a high enough persuasion you can get Ser Cauthrien to reveal that she thinks Loghain is losing his mind as well but feels indebted to him. It's not because she believes it is the proper way.