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[WhiteKnyght]

Persephone wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

No it's not twisting things.

First bit. History is written by the victors, and they don't always write truthfully.

Second bit. Loghain was the one who made that strategy for Ostagar went back on it even though he proudly calls himself a strategist by trade to the Warden.

As for the sadism, I'm referring to the news of the civil war with the Bannorn. How he had his men execute a noblewoman for burning her fields so Loghain couldn't have them. And his outright policy where all who disagree with him would be put down. For all his fear and hate of Orlais, he does a good job emulating them.

Third bit: Is completely true. If the Warden agrees to support her she does nothing for her father. She talks as badly of him as she can before Ferelden's nobility and doesn't even ask the Warden or Alistair to spare his life. She knew that he might have to die and was willing to go for it.

And let's not forget, if the Warden doesn't agree to support her, she puts a knife in his back just as fast and spouts a load of BS.

Oh yes, it most certainly is.

1) And? Doesn't change the fact that the greatest rulers history knows were clever, shrewd, manipulative, pragmatic and ruthless where it mattered.


2) Strategies may go awry under the best of circumstances. A general worth his salt adapts his strategy/saves what remains. That is exactly what Loghain did at Ostagar. Never mind that the DELAYED beacon had a hand in the plan going awry.

3) I do not care for "news" and plain gossip. The Bannorn began the civil war, reaping the consequences of that is harsh but realistic.

4) If the Warden agrees to support her, you can ask her about her father and she will tell you that she wants him to live, not die. In fact, if you tell her that you will kill him, she will not support you at all. No, she isn't willing to go for it at all, but in her situation, you think she would BEG? I think it is bloody dignified that neither Loghain NOR Anora beg and plead.

As for her "betraying" the Warden.....point me to ANY ruler who'll say "You want to depose/eliminate me AND murder my Dad too? Sure, I'm with ya!". Common sense and logic DEFY such a reaction.

1) I wouldn't exactly call them great. Just because they are well remembered doesn't mean they were good leaders. A true leader has a sense of integrity and morality. Anora and Loghain have none.

2) Alistair and the Warden had an hour to light the beacon. You can get to the top of the Tower of Ishal in less than that. You can tell from Loghain's tones at the war meeting that he made his mind up the moment Cailan choose to stand by the Grey Wardens rather than stay behind with him.

Not to mention he was making 'preparations' before Ostagar even happened. He may not have meant for Cailan to die, but he was certainly going to try to push him into doing things his way and was neutralizing any other advisors who would argue against him.

He saved Jowan from the Templars and sent him to poison Eamon to get him out of the way for a little while.

He had Howe delay Bryce Cousland.(But Howe chose to slaughter them for his own advancement)

And I don't think Arl Urien even made it to Ostagar. His death's circumstances are murky though.

3) Well when someone who left with their king and returned alone and said 'I'm regent now, do what I say or die' leaves them little option. Even when there are other legitimate heirs whom the landsmeet has a right to choose.

Loghain was loved because he and Maric ended Orlais' cruelty towards them.

Maric -- whom Loghain speaks of like he was the wisest man he knew
-- said that they weren't fighting the war to put Calenhad's blood on
the throne. They were fighting to get Meghren off of it. Because if he wasn't such a tyrant, it wouldn't matter who ruled.

But Loghain was pretty much recreating the Orlesian occupation in his own image. He may not have been as disgusting as Meghren was, but he let Howe be his second in command and that guy was like Meghren and Severan combined.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 27 novembre 2011 - 05:37 .

[Persephone]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1) I wouldn't exactly call them great. Just because they are well remembered doesn't mean they were good leaders. A true leader has a sense of integrity and morality. Anora and Loghain have none.

2) Alistair and the Warden had an hour to light the beacon. You can get to the top of the Tower of Ishal in less than that. You can tell from Loghain's tones at the war meeting that he made his mind up the moment Cailan choose to stand by the Grey Wardens rather than stay behind with him.

Not to mention he was making 'preparations' before Ostagar even happened. He may not have meant for Cailan to die, but he was certainly going to try to push him into doing things his way and was neutralizing any other advisors who would argue against him.

He saved Jowan from the Templars and sent him to poison Eamon to get him out of the way for a little while.

He had Howe delay Bryce Cousland.(But Howe chose to slaughter them for his own advancement)

And I don't think Arl Urien even made it to Ostagar. His death's circumstances are murky though.

3) Well when someone who left with their king and returned alone and said 'I'm regent now, do what I say or die' leaves them little option. Even when there are other legitimate heirs whom the landsmeet has a right to choose.

Loghain was loved because he and Maric ended Orlais' cruelty towards them.

Maric -- whom Loghain speaks of like he was the wisest man he knew
-- said that they weren't fighting the war to put Calenhad's blood on
the throne. They were fighting to get Meghren off of it. Because if he wasn't such a tyrant, it wouldn't matter who ruled.

But Loghain was pretty much recreating the Orlesian occupation in his own image. He may not have been as disgusting as Meghren was, but he let Howe be his second in command and that guy was like Meghren and Severan combined.

1) I'd call them more than great. Gimme an Elizabeth I., Augustus, Catherine the Great over Henry VI of England ANY time. (Much like Cailan, he was a let down after his father's rule) And both Loghain and Anora have integrity. Want someone who has none? Check out Henry VIII.  Loghain's lack of ruthlessness is what causes his downfall. (Right along with his heavy handed politics)

2) GAME time, not real time. Alistair himself says that you missed the signal. As for Loghain's resignation at Cailan's refusal to hear reason....yes, it's there. I do not see it as an immediate leap to what happens later however.

3) Howe did not act on Loghain's orders in ANY capacity. That has been confirmed.

4) What legitimate heirs? An untrained bastard son of questionable parentage nobody even knew about?

5) Loghain's deal with Howe was a foregone conclusion after Howe stormed Highever. Loghain doesn't like it one bit but allies are allies. Should he have reined Howe in? Surely. But I do not blame Howe's sick little brain on Loghain....for the most part.

Modifié par Persephone, 27 novembre 2011 - 07:32 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Persephone wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1) I wouldn't exactly call them great. Just because they are well remembered doesn't mean they were good leaders. A true leader has a sense of integrity and morality. Anora and Loghain have none.

2) Alistair and the Warden had an hour to light the beacon. You can get to the top of the Tower of Ishal in less than that. You can tell from Loghain's tones at the war meeting that he made his mind up the moment Cailan choose to stand by the Grey Wardens rather than stay behind with him.

Not to mention he was making 'preparations' before Ostagar even happened. He may not have meant for Cailan to die, but he was certainly going to try to push him into doing things his way and was neutralizing any other advisors who would argue against him.

He saved Jowan from the Templars and sent him to poison Eamon to get him out of the way for a little while.

He had Howe delay Bryce Cousland.(But Howe chose to slaughter them for his own advancement)

And I don't think Arl Urien even made it to Ostagar. His death's circumstances are murky though.

3) Well when someone who left with their king and returned alone and said 'I'm regent now, do what I say or die' leaves them little option. Even when there are other legitimate heirs whom the landsmeet has a right to choose.

Loghain was loved because he and Maric ended Orlais' cruelty towards them.

Maric -- whom Loghain speaks of like he was the wisest man he knew
-- said that they weren't fighting the war to put Calenhad's blood on
the throne. They were fighting to get Meghren off of it. Because if he wasn't such a tyrant, it wouldn't matter who ruled.

But Loghain was pretty much recreating the Orlesian occupation in his own image. He may not have been as disgusting as Meghren was, but he let Howe be his second in command and that guy was like Meghren and Severan combined.

1) I'd call them more than great. Gimme an Elizabeth I., Augustus, Catherine the Great over Henry VI of England ANY time. (Much like Cailan, he was a let down after his father's rule) And both Loghain and Anora have integrity. Want someone who has none? Check out Henry VIII.  Loghain's lack of ruthlessness is what causes his downfall. (Right along with his heavy handed politics)

4) What legitimate heirs? An untrained bastard son of questionable parentage nobody even knew about?

1) Look at it this way, if Loghain was even more ruthless than he was and managed to eliminate the Warden and Alistair before the Landsmeet--Ferelden's destruction would be guaranteed. You heard Riordan. Only a Grey Warden can kill the Archdemon and unless it dies, darkspawn pop up in almost limitless amounts.

Loghain may not have been aware, but every action he(and Anora if she sides with her father) is detrimental to Ferelden's well being.

Also I'm aware of Henry VIII. But Loghain would have to have no heart in his chest to do what he did to Cailan. It's not just because he was Maric's son, but he was also Rowan's son(Who Loghain truly loved). Rowan went back to save Loghain when Alr Rendorn wanted to pull an Ostagar on him. He didn't have to save the army, but he could have at least saved Cailan, who Rowan loved more than anything, out of respect.

4) Eamon and Teagan are legitimate heirs. They are Queen Rowan's brothers and thus they have as much right to run for the throne as Loghain has.

And don't forget that Maric was as untested as Alistair was at the beginning. And they even have remarkably similar attitudes and personalities. And like Maric, Alistair had the help of good friends and wise counsel.

Loghain can even admit that Alistair was like Maric right before his head gets lopped off.

As for nobody knowing about Alistair. Eamon and Teagan knew, Loghain, Cailan, and Anora knew. And it's arguable that Maric would entrust the secret to other confidants for emergency reasons.(Kinda like Uriel Septim did with Martin in Oblivion.)

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 28 novembre 2011 - 12:57 .

[pplr]

I think it wasn't a lack of ruthlessness that allowed the Warden to survive, it was that Loghain was busy.

Both he and Howe would have been happy to run the warden & Alistair through. It just so happens that when your trying to seize power and then consolidate it there are a number of things on your plate and ruthless or no things may slip through.

Now I'm not going to say Loghain's fear or even hate for Chevaliers cannot be understood. But either he, Howe, or both try to have remaining wardens rounded up and killed (or tortured if imprisoned as Howe does)-its just that you can outfight the henchmen you come across.

Even if Calian was a fool Loghain knows the wardens didn't kill him and yet he sets them up to take the blame-with unhealthy consequences for any his men can take down.

EDIT:

Yes I know that a female knight of Loghain's puts you in prison rather than kills you outright but I give her credit for that-a desire to do things how she sees as proper.  Perhaps this is why you can talk her into standing aside at the Landsmeet (getting her to face that Loghain has not been proper).

Modifié par pplr, 29 novembre 2011 - 02:41 .

[WhiteKnyght]

pplr wrote...
Yes I know that a female knight of Loghain's puts you in prison rather than kills you outright but I give her credit for that-a desire to do things how she sees as proper.  Perhaps this is why you can talk her into standing aside at the Landsmeet (getting her to face that Loghain has not been proper).

Not quite.

With a high enough persuasion you can get Ser Cauthrien to reveal that she thinks Loghain is losing his mind as well but feels indebted to him. It's not because she believes it is the proper way.

[Bleachrude]

It should be noted that going by the game, Loghain has been screwing over Alistair even BEFORE Ostagar.

Remember, when you ask Loghain why maric never acknowleded Alistair, Loghain doesn't say "oh, I'm not convinced he's maric's son".

No, he goes on about how Maric WAS going to acknowledge him but was talked out of it because it would make Rowen look bad.

Rowen who had died two years before Alistair birth. Loghain carried a torch for Rowen and was quite willing to do anything to make her look good even at the cost of a baby's well being.

Loghain is just as self-centred as Alistair IMO.

[Mike3207]

Bleachrude wrote...

It should be noted that going by the game, Loghain has been screwing over Alistair even BEFORE Ostagar.

Remember, when you ask Loghain why maric never acknowleded Alistair, Loghain doesn't say "oh, I'm not convinced he's maric's son".

No, he goes on about how Maric WAS going to acknowledge him but was talked out of it because it would make Rowen look bad.

Rowen who had died two years before Alistair birth. Loghain carried a torch for Rowen and was quite willing to do anything to make her look good even at the cost of a baby's well being.

Loghain is just as self-centred as Alistair IMO.

There was also the possibilty if he acknowledged Alistair, the nobility would use it to undermine Cailan as King. I got the feeling it was really a hard decision for Maric to make.

[Costin_Razvan]

4) Eamon and Teagan are legitimate heirs. They are Queen Rowan's brothers and thus they have as much right to run for the throne as Loghain has.

And don't forget that Maric was as untested as Alistair was at the beginning. And they even have remarkably similar attitudes and personalities. And like Maric, Alistair had the help of good friends and wise counsel.

Loghain can even admit that Alistair was like Maric right before his head gets lopped off.

As for nobody knowing about Alistair. Eamon and Teagan knew, Loghain, Cailan, and Anora knew. And it's arguable that Maric would entrust the secret to other confidants for emergency reasons.(Kinda like Uriel Septim did with Martin in Oblivion.)

Rowan was Queen Consort not Queen Regeant, her family does not have any more claim to the throne then Anora does as Cailan's widow.

Alistair does have a blood claim to the throne, but the fact he is an undeclared bastard...well that is big - against him.

But Loghain would have to have no heart in his chest to do what he did to Cailan. It's not just because he was Maric's son, but he was also Rowan's son(Who Loghain truly loved).

If anything Loghain had too much heart when he tried to save that ****ing idiot from himself. That he did not charge in and lose hundreds maybe even thousands of lives to save a ****ing moron like Cailan means he cared a lot more about his word to Maric then his love for Cailan. whom he probably looked at as his son.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 novembre 2011 - 07:47 .

[Bleachrude]

Mike Smith wrote...

There was also the possibilty if he acknowledged Alistair, the nobility would use it to undermine Cailan as King. I got the feeling it was really a hard decision for Maric to make.

You know...I never really understood that argument...

If Alistair had been older than Cailan, sure, I could see that but a younger son? 

If that was true, no noble could afford to have more than 1 kid since their enemies could always use the same tactic...

[Costin_Razvan]

Bleachrude wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

There was also the possibilty if he acknowledged Alistair, the nobility would use it to undermine Cailan as King. I got the feeling it was really a hard decision for Maric to make.

You know...I never really understood that argument...

If Alistair had been older than Cailan, sure, I could see that but a younger son? 

If that was true, no noble could afford to have more than 1 kid since their enemies could always use the same tactic...

Uhm "true" nobles in our history had children waging civil wars against each other, children waging wars against their parents, children hanging their mothers, fathers, daughters, cousins or brutally executing them just to gain power.

So it is very realistic that:

a) Nobles would have multiple children.

That these children would fight amongst eachother for power.

[actionhero112]

You know, its always bothered me, all Eamon needed was someone who looks like they could have been Maric's son, it doesn't need to be necessarily true. There wasn't birth certificates or anything of the sort, and due to Alistair's pretty much un-aknowledgement by most of the game's npc's not many people were told of his heritage. In fact, if it wasn't for the serious amount of Bioware's confirmation of the fact, I'd seriously doubt someone like Alistair could even be in line for the the throne.

I hate to be the Alistair-hater here, but the fact Alistair is reluctant to even take the throne at the beginning of the journey, and that this can change so drastically over the course of a few years, really shows how easily he is manipulated. That sort of person could never be a good king, so Loghain has a good reason to call you a manipulator of Alistair. In fact, if you pretty much mold him into the man he is, and he trust you so much that you could probably mold him into anything you wanted.

Anora on the other hand knows what she wants, a lot of people think she solely wants power, but I am inclined to believe that Anora shares her father's dedication to Ferelden. Her actions as a solo ruler in the epilogue show this to me clearly. This makes the decision to me, quite clear cut; Anora, every freaking time. Alistair makes a great grey warden, but he wouldn't make a good ruler, at least to me.

[Mike3207]

If anyone could confirm that Alistair was Maric's son, it would have been Loghain. I doubt he was interested in doing that though.

[Bleachrude]

Except that alistair would be working from a much weaker position.

1. He's the second son.

2. He's a bastard

3. His mother was a "serving" girl (commoner).

Now if for some reason maric had made Alistair his heir, then Cailan would potentialy have a much stronger case and thus support among nobles  (Elder, acknowledged, mother is of noble breeding).

Sure, there were in our history in0fighting among noble children but that doesn't change the fact that alistair in this case, has a very weak starting position..

[ShimmeringDjinn]

actionhero112 wrote...

That sort of person could never be a good king, so Loghain has a good reason to call you a manipulator of Alistair. In fact, if you pretty much mold him into the man he is, and he trust you so much that you could probably mold him into anything you wanted.

As much as I love Alistair, I have to agree with you *cough* and Loghain *cough* there.
*And here is the puppeteer* is what Loghain calls the Warden at the Landsmeet, and he is completely correct if the Warden put's Al on the throne and then becomes Queen or chancellor.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 01 décembre 2011 - 04:25 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Rowan was Queen Consort not Queen Regeant, her family does not have any more claim to the throne then Anora does as Cailan's widow.

What's your source for that, about Rowan not being queen regnant?

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Addai67 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Rowan was Queen Consort not Queen Regeant, her family does not have any more claim to the throne then Anora does as Cailan's widow.

What's your source for that, about Rowan not being queen regnant?

Taken from Wiki.

A queen regnant (plural: queens regnant) is a female monarch who reigns in her own right, in contrast to a queen consort, who is the wife of a reigning king.

Queens regnant possess and exercise sovereign powers. The husbands of
queens regnant do not usually share their wives' rank, title or
sovereignty. Queens consort share their husbands' rank and titles, but
do not share the sovereignty of their husbands.


Edit to add.
A queen dowager is the widow of a king who reigned in his own right. A queen mother is a queen dowager who is also the mother of a reigning sovereign.
This is what Anora is and what Rowan would have been, had Maric died before her.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 01 décembre 2011 - 04:59 .

[ShimmeringDjinn]

As far as I'm aware, Rowan did not rule in her own right since Maric was the heir not her -Anora doesn't/didn't either because she is also not an heir- so they are both Queen consorts *not* Regnant.

[Persephone]

Bleachrude wrote...

It should be noted that going by the game, Loghain has been screwing over Alistair even BEFORE Ostagar.

Remember, when you ask Loghain why maric never acknowleded Alistair, Loghain doesn't say "oh, I'm not convinced he's maric's son".
 

Eh? How do you know that? None of that is in the game? Maric chose to give up his son by Fiona (Whom many consider to be Alistair) before Loghain even knew that the child EXISTED. He made that DECISION himself. Shocking, I know, but not every screwup in Alistair's life can be blamed on Loghain. Actually, very few. if any. can be.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

As far as I'm aware, Rowan did not rule in her own right since Maric was the heir not her -Anora doesn't/didn't either because she is also not an heir- so they are both Queen consorts *not* Regnant.

This is correct.

Even the fact that Anora did all the work of a Queen Regnant while Cailan was chasing skirts and hunting glory.

I do believe though that the assembly at Loghain's return objecting to HIM vs. to asking for an election of a new king is their agreement to keep her on the throne.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

As far as I'm aware, Rowan did not rule in her own right since Maric was the heir not her -Anora doesn't/didn't either because she is also not an heir- so they are both Queen consorts *not* Regnant.

This is correct.

Even the fact that Anora did all the work of a Queen Regnant while Cailan was chasing skirts and hunting glory.

Not trying to be argumentative, BUT we only have Anora's word for that *Shruggs*

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Here is another little tidbit of information which I thought was relevent since Ferelden is based off of my country.

Succession to the British throne is governed both by common law and statute. Under common law the crown is currently passed on by male-preference primogeniture.[1] In other words, succession passes first to an individual's sons, in order of birth, and subsequently to daughters, again in order of birth.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 01 décembre 2011 - 07:46 .

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

As far as I'm aware, Rowan did not rule in her own right since Maric was the heir not her -Anora doesn't/didn't either because she is also not an heir- so they are both Queen consorts *not* Regnant.

This is correct.

Even the fact that Anora did all the work of a Queen Regnant while Cailan was chasing skirts and hunting glory.

Not trying to be argumentative, BUT we only have Anora's word for that *Shruggs*

Eamon's as well. And Loghain's when lying would gain him nothing.

Logic supports it too.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

As far as I'm aware, Rowan did not rule in her own right since Maric was the heir not her -Anora doesn't/didn't either because she is also not an heir- so they are both Queen consorts *not* Regnant.

This is correct.

Even the fact that Anora did all the work of a Queen Regnant while Cailan was chasing skirts and hunting glory.

Not trying to be argumentative, BUT we only have Anora's word for that *Shruggs*

Eamon's as well. And Loghain's when lying would gain him nothing.

Logic supports it too.

Umm....I concede.