486 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

4) Eamon and Teagan are legitimate heirs. They are Queen Rowan's brothers and thus they have as much right to run for the throne as Loghain has.

And don't forget that Maric was as untested as Alistair was at the beginning. And they even have remarkably similar attitudes and personalities. And like Maric, Alistair had the help of good friends and wise counsel.

Loghain can even admit that Alistair was like Maric right before his head gets lopped off.

As for nobody knowing about Alistair. Eamon and Teagan knew, Loghain, Cailan, and Anora knew. And it's arguable that Maric would entrust the secret to other confidants for emergency reasons.(Kinda like Uriel Septim did with Martin in Oblivion.)

Rowan was Queen Consort not Queen Regeant, her family does not have any more claim to the throne then Anora does as Cailan's widow.

Alistair does have a blood claim to the throne, but the fact he is an undeclared bastard...well that is big - against him.

But Loghain would have to have no heart in his chest to do what he did to Cailan. It's not just because he was Maric's son, but he was also Rowan's son(Who Loghain truly loved).

If anything Loghain had too much heart when he tried to save that ****ing idiot from himself. That he did not charge in and lose hundreds maybe even thousands of lives to save a ****ing moron like Cailan means he cared a lot more about his word to Maric then his love for Cailan. whom he probably looked at as his son.

On the contrary, it shows that Loghain learned nothing from Maric.. Running away and doing his own thing, is exactly what Maric told Loghain not to do in the prequel novels. We'll never know now if the Battle at Ostagar could've had a different outcome, which is precisely why Maric was angry at Loghain for chasing after him in the first place.

Yes, if Loghain had charged at Ostagar, some lives may have been lost, Cailan might still have died. But again, we'll never know. What we do know is that his failure to charge in already cost hundreds and thousands of lives, not to mention that in his lack of foresight he almost completely obliterated the Grey Warden presence in Ferelden, when everyone knows that the Grey Wardens are their best chance for ending a Blight. And he doesn't do anything to recitfy this mistake. In fact, when a Grey Warden comes to investigate what happened, Loghain has him locked up. Loghain isn't interested in uniting Ferelden or stopping the Darkspawn, he just wants to keep his newfound power, and he'll do whatever it takes, even allowing the country he supposedly loves to turn into a diseased Blightland where nothing will ever grow again.

Loghain, despite being a complete nutter-butter, knows that he did the wrong thing, or else he would be honest about what happened, when instead he does everything he can to cover it up.

Cailan is not wrong or stupid to be enthusiastic about the coming battle, or to want to participate in it personally. Cailan is a military leader, and a major part of his job is maintaining troop morale. And if people don't already know that, Wynne spells it out for you in very clear terms if you talk to her at Ostagar. Cailan isn't being a fool, he's doing his ****ing job. We have no idea how he really felt about their chances of success and now we never will.

For a game series that's supposed to be all about depth of character and ambiguity, a lot of people in this thread sure are taking things at face value. "Oh, Cailan said this and that so obviously he must feel that way. Why would a video game lie to me?"

[Mike3207]

Hanz54321 wrote...

actionhero112 wrote...


I hate to be the Alistair-hater here, but the fact Alistair is reluctant to even take the throne at the beginning of the journey, and that this can change so drastically over the course of a few years, really shows how easily he is manipulated. That sort of person could never be a good king, so Loghain has a good reason to call you a manipulator of Alistair. In fact, if you pretty much mold him into the man he is, and he trust you so much that you could probably mold him into anything you wanted.

Actually a drastic change in personality and values would be pretty typical for someone taken out of their "regular life" and suddenly inundated with knowledge and understanding he/she never had before.

Plato's Cave.

Alistair was sheltered his whole life, then thrust into war and politics.  Once the shock and denial wore off, he did what any strong, intelligent person would do - he changed his view of life to a more accurate model, pulled up his boot straps and did what needed to be done.  The exact opposite of being mentally weak and pliable.  It's called strong and flexible.

So I think your argument against Alistair is horrible.  I'm partial to Loghain, but your reasoning is exactly opposite real life.

He only does what is needed to be done if you indulge his childishness and kill Loghain. He turn his back on the Wardens and Ferelden if you spare Loghain, when Ferelden needs him most. It's why I think Anora is the best choice.

About Ostagar-what if Loghain charging in meant the army was wiped out completely? Maybe he could have saved Cailan, and maybe the army would have been completely wiped out. Unless we do know-I'm ok with giving Loghain the benefit of the doubt.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 02 décembre 2011 - 03:30 .

[Plaintiff]

Mike Smith wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

actionhero112 wrote...


I hate to be the Alistair-hater here, but the fact Alistair is reluctant to even take the throne at the beginning of the journey, and that this can change so drastically over the course of a few years, really shows how easily he is manipulated. That sort of person could never be a good king, so Loghain has a good reason to call you a manipulator of Alistair. In fact, if you pretty much mold him into the man he is, and he trust you so much that you could probably mold him into anything you wanted.

Actually a drastic change in personality and values would be pretty typical for someone taken out of their "regular life" and suddenly inundated with knowledge and understanding he/she never had before.

Plato's Cave.

Alistair was sheltered his whole life, then thrust into war and politics.  Once the shock and denial wore off, he did what any strong, intelligent person would do - he changed his view of life to a more accurate model, pulled up his boot straps and did what needed to be done.  The exact opposite of being mentally weak and pliable.  It's called strong and flexible.

So I think your argument against Alistair is horrible.  I'm partial to Loghain, but your reasoning is exactly opposite real life.

He only does what is needed to be done if you indulge his childishness and kill Loghain. He turn his back on the Wardens and Ferelden if you spare Loghain, when Ferelden needs him most. It's why I think Anora is the best choice.

About Ostagar-what if Loghain charging in meant the army was wiped out completely? Maybe he could have saved Cailan, and maybe the army would have been completely wiped out. Unless we do know-I'm ok with giving Loghain the benefit of the doubt.

I'm really not. As far as I'm concerned, whether he meant it or not (which I think he did), Loghain's inaction makes him just as culpable as the Darkspawn. His retreat may have saved his men, but it doomed the people of Lothering and (as you learn from speaking to Arls and Banns during the Landsmeet quests), a lot of other areas of Ferelden were completely decimated.

Now, those events might have happened regardless. But the fact is that by refusing to act, Loghain allowed that to occur. He essentially gave his permission for the Darkspawn to run rampant over Ferelden for a year, and didn't even make a token effort to stop them during all that time. Charging in might have turned out to be a failure, but making the effort still matters. Saving some lives doesn't negate the fact that countless others still died and that he bears some of that responsibility.

As a side-note: It's been clarfied earlier in the thread that Arl Howe was not working on Loghain's orders in any capacity, but I'm playing Origins as a Human Noble right now and I just spoke to Loghain outside his tent. If you mention that your father was the Teryn of Highever, he says "Yes, Cailan told me of his promise."

So there you have it: On his orders or not, Loghain is (at least if you play HN) extremely aware of Arl Howe's despicable actions, and made him his right-hand man regardless. I don't see any argument that can be made to justify this course of action. Nobody, not even Teryn "stabs the curtains in case there are Orlesians behind them" Loghain could possibly think that Arl Howe's continued existence is the best thing for Ferelden.

Alistair wanting Loghain dead isn't any more selfish than Anora wanting him to live, and the fact is that Loghain has committed crimes against his country, crimes against the Grey Wardens, crimes against your party members and you personally. I don't see any merit at all in letting him live. Nothing he does, including striking the killing blow on the Archdemon, could make up for all the wrongs he's perpetrated. Ending the Blight won't bring back the people who died because of him, he's irredeemable as far as I'm concerned, and doesn't deserve the glory and respect he would receive by becoming a Grey Warden.

So yeah, looks like I'll be executing Loghain this playthrough. Again.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 02 décembre 2011 - 03:51 .

[Mike3207]

Plaintiff wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

actionhero112 wrote...


I hate to be the Alistair-hater here, but the fact Alistair is reluctant to even take the throne at the beginning of the journey, and that this can change so drastically over the course of a few years, really shows how easily he is manipulated. That sort of person could never be a good king, so Loghain has a good reason to call you a manipulator of Alistair. In fact, if you pretty much mold him into the man he is, and he trust you so much that you could probably mold him into anything you wanted.

Actually a drastic change in personality and values would be pretty typical for someone taken out of their "regular life" and suddenly inundated with knowledge and understanding he/she never had before.

Plato's Cave.

Alistair was sheltered his whole life, then thrust into war and politics.  Once the shock and denial wore off, he did what any strong, intelligent person would do - he changed his view of life to a more accurate model, pulled up his boot straps and did what needed to be done.  The exact opposite of being mentally weak and pliable.  It's called strong and flexible.

So I think your argument against Alistair is horrible.  I'm partial to Loghain, but your reasoning is exactly opposite real life.

He only does what is needed to be done if you indulge his childishness and kill Loghain. He turn his back on the Wardens and Ferelden if you spare Loghain, when Ferelden needs him most. It's why I think Anora is the best choice.

About Ostagar-what if Loghain charging in meant the army was wiped out completely? Maybe he could have saved Cailan, and maybe the army would have been completely wiped out. Unless we do know-I'm ok with giving Loghain the benefit of the doubt.

I'm really not. As far as I'm concerned, whether he meant it or not (which I think he did), Loghain's inaction makes him just as culpable as the Darkspawn. His retreat may have saved his men, but it doomed the people of Lothering and (as you learn from speaking to Arls and Banns during the Landsmeet quests), a lot of other areas of Ferelden were completely decimated.

Now, those events might have happened regardless. But the fact is that by refusing to act, Loghain allowed that to occur. He essentially gave his permission for the Darkspawn to run rampant over Ferelden for a year, and didn't even make a token effort to stop them during all that time. Charging in might have turned out to be a failure, but making the effort still matters. Saving some lives doesn't negate the fact that countless others still died and that he bears some of that responsibility.

As a side-note: It's been clarfied earlier in the thread that Arl Howe was not working on Loghain's orders in any capacity, but I'm playing Origins as a Human Noble right now and I just spoke to Loghain outside his tent. If you mention that your father was the Teryn of Highever, he says "Yes, Cailan told me of his promise."

So there you have it: On his orders or not, Loghain is (at least if you play HN) extremely aware of Arl Howe's despicable actions, and made him his right-hand man regardless. I don't see any argument that can be made to justify this course of action. Nobody, not even Teryn "stabs the curtains in case there are Orlesians behind them" Loghain could possibly think that Arl Howe's continued existence is the best thing for Ferelden.

Alistair wanting Loghain dead isn't any more selfish than Anora wanting him to live, and the fact is that Loghain has committed crimes against his country, crimes against the Grey Wardens, crimes against your party members and you personally. I don't see any merit at all in letting him live. Nothing he does, including striking the killing blow on the Archdemon, could make up for all the wrongs he's perpetrated. Ending the Blight won't bring back the people who died because of him, he's irredeemable as far as I'm concerned, and doesn't deserve the glory and respect he would receive by becoming a Grey Warden.

So yeah, looks like I'll be executing Loghain this playthrough. Again.

How about a civil war? The fact that there is a civil war going on explains both taking Howe on as his right hand man, and not dealing with the darkspawn. You may not like Howe(and I don't either), but he was in control of both his Arldom and the Couslands Teyrn. Politics makes strange bedfollows. Things might have turned out different if Ferelden had accepted Loghain as Regent, but they didn't. Once the Civil War was on, the options become a bit limited.

[tklivory]

Mike Smith wrote...

He only does what is needed to be done if you indulge his childishness and kill Loghain. He turn his back on the Wardens and Ferelden if you spare Loghain, when Ferelden needs him most. It's why I think Anora is the best choice.

Except that Anora will also turn on you and do what she wants rather than what might be for the good of Fereldan if you tell her that you will kill her Father, even if she previously promised you her support.  Both Alistair and Anora have lines that they won't allowed to be crossed.  If you let Loghain live, Alistair walks.  If you tell Anora that you will kill Loghain, she will betray you, regardless of the ramifications of that betrayal to Fereldan.

If you arrange a marriage between Alistair and Anora before the Landsmeet and then have Alistair kill Loghain, suddenly that marriage deal is off, even though that marriage was set up precisely to provide continuity of government and stability within Fereldan during a time of crisis.  Also, if you arrange a marriage between yourself and Anora, and then kill Loghain yourself during the Landsmeet, Anora breaks off the marriage because she 'won't marry the man who killed her father.'

Why is Alistair's reaction seen as childish, but no one calls Anora to the carpet for an equally 'childish' reaction?  Both of them have lost someone dear to them, and both of them have understandably emotional reactions to the death of that person.  Whether or not the relations of Alistair/Duncan and Anora/Loghain were 'equivalent' in emotional veracity and depth is immaterial to this discussion, as both parties feel the loss on a personal level that we should be ashamed to try to evaluate and compare to each other.

This is why I cannot view Anora as inherently 'superior' or 'has the best interests of Fereldan in mind regardless', because that argument simply does not hold true, given the above facts.

Modifié par tklivory, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:01 .

[Mike3207]

tklivory wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

He only does what is needed to be done if you indulge his childishness and kill Loghain. He turn his back on the Wardens and Ferelden if you spare Loghain, when Ferelden needs him most. It's why I think Anora is the best choice.

Except that Anora will also turn on you and do what she wants rather than what might be for the good of Fereldan if you tell her that you will kill her Father, even if she previously promised you her support.  Both Alistair and Anora have lines that they won't allowed to be crossed.  If you let Loghain live, Alistair walks.  If you tell Anora that you will kill Loghain, she will betray you, regardless of the ramifications of that betrayal to Fereldan.

If you arrange a marriage between Alistair and Anora before the Landsmeet and then have Alistair kill Loghain, suddenly that marriage deal is off, even though that marriage was set up precisely to provide continuity of government and stability within Fereldan during a time of crisis.  Also, if you arrange a marriage between yourself and Anora, and then kill Loghain yourself during the Landsmeet, Anora breaks off the marriage because she 'won't marry the man who killed her father.'

Why is Alistair's reaction seen as childish, but no one calls Anora to the carpet for an equally 'childish' reaction?  Both of them have lost someone dear to them, and both of them have understandably emotional reactions to the death of that person.  Whether or not the relations of Alistair/Duncan and Anora/Loghain were 'equivalent' in emotional veracity and depth is immaterial to this discussion, as both parties feel the loss on a personal level that we should be ashamed to try to evaluate and compare to each other.

This is why I cannot view Anora as inherently 'superior' or 'has the best interests of Fereldan in mind regardless', because that argument simply does not hold true, given the above facts.

I accept that both Alistair and Anora have character flaws-the difference to me is their decision about Ferelden. Alistair leaves the country during the Blight, and Anora does what she can to make things better for Ferelden. Alistair's decision could have destroyed Ferelden- I simply see no excuse for it.

[actionhero112]

Hanz54321 wrote...

actionhero112 wrote...


I hate to be the Alistair-hater here, but the fact Alistair is reluctant to even take the throne at the beginning of the journey, and that this can change so drastically over the course of a few years, really shows how easily he is manipulated. That sort of person could never be a good king, so Loghain has a good reason to call you a manipulator of Alistair. In fact, if you pretty much mold him into the man he is, and he trust you so much that you could probably mold him into anything you wanted.

Actually a drastic change in personality and values would be pretty typical for someone taken out of their "regular life" and suddenly inundated with knowledge and understanding he/she never had before.

Plato's Cave.

Alistair was sheltered his whole life, then thrust into war and politics.  Once the shock and denial wore off, he did what any strong, intelligent person would do - he changed his view of life to a more accurate model, pulled up his boot straps and did what needed to be done.  The exact opposite of being mentally weak and pliable.  It's called strong and flexible.

So I think your argument against Alistair is horrible.  I'm partial to Loghain, but your reasoning is exactly opposite real life.

You type as if Alistair actually makes a dynamic choice in his life the entire game. I can barely think of twice, when he actually forces you to make a choice in game, and both of those surround his precious savior, Duncan. If you deny killing Loghain, and when he protests you placing him on the throne. In fact, all the politics in the game, fall down to you, and Eamon. None of the driving force is Alistair. He despises taking responsiblity, and is unable to see the bigger picture. (He doesn't seem to understand that Loghain is better as an ally, than dead, he doesn't want to marry Anora etc, and he doesn't want to be king)

Also, I wrote that he is easily manipulated, not that he has a change in core values. He still hates apostates, wants to kill loghain, and runs away from responsiblity every chance he gets. Only by manipulation by you can you make him do any of those things, and some he will never do. 

So I really have no idea what you mean by 'Alistair is thrust into a world of politics.' Its more 'The GW is thrust into the world of politics, with his witty companion provides comic relief.' Alistair is primarily driven by the very base emotion of vengeance, and leaves all the political decision making to you. In fact, when confronted by these 'truths,' (after Ostagar) he flails around for a emotional life raft he can confide in, and that is you. And if you 'betray' him by not obeying his childish unrepentant desire to kill Loghain, he runs away yet again. 

So yes, I agree with you, he 'pulled up his boot straps and did what he needed to do' only that was killing darkspawn and being a tank. Alistair is a good GW, but not a leader of men by any longshot. He is no Aragorn.

Modifié par actionhero112, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:20 .

[tklivory]

Mike Smith wrote...

I accept that both Alistair and Anora have character flaws-the difference to me is their decision about Ferelden. Alistair leaves the country during the Blight, and Anora does what she can to make things better for Ferelden. Alistair's decision could have destroyed Ferelden- I simply see no excuse for it.

I honestly don't see the intellectual continuity here.  How is Anora refusing to marry someone because he killed her father 'better for Fereldan' if that marriage would ensure continuity and stability of government?  How does withdrawing promised support for the Grey Wardens during a Blight because they wouldn't prevaricate concerning her father's fate 'better for Fereldan'?  How is Anora refusing to acknowledge the King chosen by the Landsmeet 'better for Fereldan'?

How is refusing to stand up to her father 'better for Fereldan'?  Yes, she reaches out to the Warden for help later in the game, but at no point in the game do we see her do anything but defend her father's actions until it reaches the point that she perceives she will lose power, even when we know that she herself doubts him.  We don't see any direct evidence (only comments from other characters) that she has any influence over the Bannorn during the civil war, so why should we automatically assume that she would be able to handle them after the rulership is decided in the Landsmeet?  Who shows up to welcome Arl Eamon and the Wardens when they arrive at Denerim?  Loghain and Howe, NOT Anora.

So yeah, I don't see the 'better for Fereldan' argument here. 

Also, what is the difference between a strong Queen and a puppet King/Queen with a strong puppetmaster?  Besides, a lot of people talk about making their Warden Chancellor after the Blight to rule from the shadows, so to speak. France operated quite well under that model for centuries, TBH (and that is if you assume that Alistair is too weak to be an effective King, which is debatable, though I won't debate that here). 

As you see no excuse for Alistair's behavior, I see no equivalent excuse for Anora's behavior in the above scenarios.

Modifié par tklivory, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:23 .

[tklivory]

actionhero112 wrote...

(He doesn't seem to understand that Loghain is better as an ally, than dead,

Whoa, whoa, now, take a step back.  I love the character of Loghain, and have killed him and spared him, but really, in Alistair's personal experience of the man, Loghain is the man that

1) developed a losing strategy at Ostagar and then bailed when the going got tough (whether or not that is what actually happened, I could see Alistair certainly believing this.)  Remember, Alistair was quite complimentary of Loghain prior to the Battle of Ostagar, and firmly believed that the beacon had to be lit so that Loghain could execute the strategy he had developed, so obviously it was Loghain's actions during the Battle that changed his opinion
2) sent assassins to kill the only Grey Wardens in Fereldan during a Blight
3) fomented civil war through his clumsy political handling of events after the Battle of Ostagar
4) put a bounty on the Grey Wardens and told everyone that they killed Cailan, which is a highly debatable argument, and weak on the face of it
5) poisoned a powerful Arl of the Realm during a time of crisis in Fereldan, thus agitating the civil war and the division between those in power within the realm

So it is very understandable, from Alistair's perspective, why Loghain would be seen as unreliable completely apart from his 'savior Duncan's death'  (and also, remember that Alistair's view of Duncan differs little from Anora's view of her Father).

Modifié par tklivory, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:36 .

[actionhero112]

tklivory wrote... How is Anora refusing to marry someone because he killed her father 'better for Fereldan' if that marriage would ensure continuity and stability of government?  

I see it as that she doesn't know whether Alistair would be a good king. She wants to rule unnappossed because she truly believes she has the interests of Ferelden at heart. She sees in Alistair what Lohgain saw in Cailan, a child wanting to play at war.

tklivory wrote... How does withdrawing promised support for the Grey Wardens during a Blight because they wouldn't prevaricate concerning her father's fate 'better for Fereldan'? 

She doesn't withdraw her support from the grey wardens as a whole, not to be offensive or anything. She just withdraws it from your character. She is open to outside help with the blight, as shown in a cutscene. She just doesn't see the need for her father to die. She has no idea of the quality of your character, only that Eamon brought you with him to the landsmeet. Saying you are going to kill Lohgain could easily be interpretted by her as, 'this GW is only out for revenge, and doesn't care about ferelden WTFBBQ'

tklivory wrote... How is Anora refusing to acknowledge the King chosen by the Landsmeet 'better for Fereldan'?

I touched on this in the first question. Anora does not think Alistair is would be a good ruler. And to be fair, Loghain will win the landsmeet if you do not interfere and garner a bunch of personal favors. Also you promised Anora your support and turning around and advocating Alistair, while lul-tastic, kind of betrays her. 

tklivory wrote...How is refusing to stand up to her father 'better for Fereldan'?

We see what happens to Anora when she stands up to her father. TO THE DUNGEONS. In fact, that is where she is when you arrive in denerim. Thats why she doesn't greet you.  Its pretty obvious who held the power in that relationship, and it wasn't Anora. Anora had to tip toe around Loghain unless she wanted to end up in the dungeon.



I do see what you mean with the puppetmaster idea, but I thought we were talking about who would make a better ruler, Alistair or Anora. Not you or Anora. 

Modifié par actionhero112, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:45 .

[actionhero112]

I'm not debating whether Loghain is a really awesome bad guy, but allowing him to live once he acknowledges you as an awesome fighter would probably be way more beneficial to your cause than icing the guy and losing the support of his allies. In fact, if you keep him on as a GW, you see he can be quite personable and he doesn't stab you in the back ever chance he gets.

The fact that Alistair can't see that doesn't make him a bad person, just a person unable to see the larger picture.

[Plaintiff]

Mike Smith wrote...
How about a civil war? The fact that there is a civil war going on explains both taking Howe on as his right hand man, and not dealing with the darkspawn. You may not like Howe(and I don't either), but he was in control of both his Arldom and the Couslands Teyrn. Politics makes strange bedfollows. Things might have turned out different if Ferelden had accepted Loghain as Regent, but they didn't. Once the Civil War was on, the options become a bit limited.

Not really. The civil war is only going on because Loghain failed to unite the Bannorn under his rule in the first place. It's well known across Ferelden that Arl Howe is responsible for the massacre of the Couslands (you can find out even if you aren't playng a Human Noble). They're a popular and powerful family, on the same level of nobility as Loghain, second only to the royal family. Even if Howe managed to keep it a secret for a while (which he probably didn't, smoking ruins are pretty hard to miss), the truth would all come out when the Couslands eventually failed to show up for the Landsmeet, by reason of being dead.

As the only known family (are there any other Teryns in Ferelden?) with the political clout to oppose Loghain on his own terms, it looks very much like Loghain's theft of the throne is premeditated, and that he had Howe wipe out the Couslands beforehand to prevent any early attempts to organize opposition. We have metagaming knowledge that this is not the case, but to the Bannorn, it only looks as though Loghain is in the business of hiring backstabbing traitors to slaughter his own countrymen.

Choices may be limited, but they still exist, and practically anyone would've been a better choice than Howe, of all people, who's appointment would only facilitate further conflict. He could've gone to Eamon, even, and possily secured his support if his acting was good enough, but instead he had him poisoned.

Which brings up another point, When the **** did that happen? I don't see how he could've had time to organize it after Ostagar. It's one of the first things you learn right after the battle, when you reach Lothering.

Yes, it looks very much like Loghain was making a premeditated power-grab. As much as I despise Anora, things probably would've gone much more smoothly for him if he'd left it to her, and settled for pulling strings behind the curtain. She could've played grieving widow and it wouldn't look like Loghain was trying to usurp the throne.

Don't get me wrong, she's still a stupid cow, but anyone is better than Teryn Loghain McCrazy.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:55 .

[tklivory]

actionhero112 wrote...

I see it as that she doesn't know whether Alistair would be a good king. She wants to rule unnappossed because she truly believes she has the interests of Ferelden at heart. She sees in Alistair what Lohgain saw in Cailan, a child wanting to play at war.

It could also be perceived as a pure power grab.  I've played Wardens that saw her as truly wanting the best for Fereldan, and I've played Wardens that saw her desperate to hold on to power and willing to say anything to keep it.  I do know that she doesn't know Alistair's character, and would see herself as more experienced, but I cannot say that, as she is presented in the game, she is acting strictly out of a belief that she has *only* the interests of Fereldan at heart.

She doesn't withdraw her support from the grey wardens as a whole, not to be offensive or anything. She just withdraws it from your character. She is open to outside help with the blight, as shown in a cutscene. She just doesn't see the need for her father to die. She has no idea of the quality of your character, only that Eamon brought you with him to the landsmeet. Saying you are going to kill Lohgain could easily be interpretted by her as, 'this GW is only out for revenge, and doesn't care about ferelden WTFBBQ'

Yes, I worded that poorly. you are correct.  And of course she doesn't see a need for her father to die, just as Alistair doesn't see a need for her father to live.  She could just as easily be perceived by the Warden as someone refusing to allow justice to be done out of a blind devotion to her father, and doesn't care about Fereldan.  Different end results, same obstinacy concerning the man's fate.  But I covered that in another post.

I touched on this in the first question. Anora does not think Alistair is would be a good ruler. And to be fair, Loghain will win the landsmeet if you do not interfere and garner a bunch of personal favors. Also you promised Anora your support and turning around and advocating Alistair, while lul-tastic, kind of betrays her. 

First of all, whether she believes Alistair will be a good king or not, that still doesn't justify her refusal to give him her oath of loyalty at the point in the game where it is demanded of her.  At that point, she has no chance of getting the throne outside of treason, so not giving her oath is going directly against the will of the accepted method of choosing a ruler, the Landsmeet.  This is not the action of someone with only the good of Fereldan in mind.

And while it is true that Loghain would win the Landsmeet elsewise outside of your character's influence, it is also true that the reason he would is because he has pretty much suppressed any other candidates from being able to present themselves.  I mean, he attempts to influence the succession preemptively by having Arl Eamon poisoned, so its not like he isn't pulling in favors and doing underhanded deeds prior to the Landsmeet either (mostly by trying to ensure a Landsmeet doesn't even happen)

Also, you don't have to promise Anora your support, you can outright say you will support Alistair at the outset.  In this case, she throws in behind her Father, although it can be debated whether it is for the good of Fereldan or for her need to maintain her power or because she truly believes Alistair to be weak.  Just wanted to point that out.

We see what happens to Anora when she stands up to her father. TO THE DUNGEONS. In fact, that is where she is when you arrive in denerim. Thats why she doesn't greet you.  Its pretty obvious who held the power in that relationship, and it wasn't Anora. Anora had to tip toe around Loghain unless she wanted to end up in the dungeon.

At this point, we don't know for certain if Anora is in the dungeon when we arrive in Denerim (given how screwy the game's timeline is), though it is likely.  However, she was placed in the dungeon by Arl Howe, not her father.  She didn't go to her father to confront him about his actions, she went to Arl Howe to discuss the situation and ran into that snake's machinations. (although that, also, can be debated.  Love the writing in this game!)

I guess part of my point was, if she was truly such an effective leader, why would she have allowed herself to be imprisoned at a time when she was needed the most to influence the country's leadership?  And why doesn't she confront her father directly, either before or after your arrival at Denerim?  The closest she gets is asking her father about Cailan's death and just storming out in disgust, not actually calling him out for it.

I do see what you mean with the puppetmaster idea, but I thought we were talking about who would make a better ruler, Alistair or Anora. Not you or Anora. 

True, true.  Just leapt into tangent land there, I guess.

Modifié par tklivory, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:29 .

[tklivory]

actionhero112 wrote...

I'm not debating whether Loghain is a really awesome bad guy, but allowing him to live once he acknowledges you as an awesome fighter would probably be way more beneficial to your cause than icing the guy and losing the support of his allies. In fact, if you keep him on as a GW, you see he can be quite personable and he doesn't stab you in the back ever chance he gets.

The fact that Alistair can't see that doesn't make him a bad person, just a person unable to see the larger picture.

Oh, I know he isn't a really awesome bad guy (Tim Curry always gets those roles ).  I just wanted to point out that there really is no reason to expect that Alistair would try to see Loghain's usefulness.

I also don't really get the 'big picture' argument when it comes to Loghain.  The 'big picture' is that the Blight has to be stopped.  Loghain has done everything in his power to prevent the Grey Wardens from doing so, including not allowing Cailan to call in allies that he would have been willing to wait for (by implication more than explicit statement, 'tis true).  Why should the fate of one man be balanced against the fate of the realm and have it be defended as a 'big picture' type of deal? 

Also, Loghain absolutely refused to see the 'big picture' regarding the Wardens, the Blight, and Orlais due to personal prejudice, and he was regent.  Anora refused to see the 'big picture' by kiboshing the proposed marriage to Alistair if Alistair kills her father due to personal loss.  Are you saying that Alistair should be held up to a higher standard than either Anora or Loghain simply because his picture has to somehow be sufficiently bigger?

As I said, I love the character of Loghain (and have had him in my party several times), but all 3 of the potential ruler choices fail to see the 'big picture' at one time or another in the course of the game, so it seems a bit disingenuous to hold up Alistair as the worst choice simply because he's the easiest target.

That being said, the Landsmeet is one of my favorite scenes to RP in my head, because I love analyzing different scenarios of why he/she said/did this/that. 


EDIT:

How come all Anora threads devolve into Loghain vs Alistair threads?  Just an observation, but it seems to happen a lot.  


EDIT EDIT: And why can't we declare ourselves sole ruler if we're a Cousland, huh?  That should be just as viable an option as declaring Anora sole ruler, given she's a Queen Consort and not Queen Regnant.



EDIT EDIT EDIT: This is fun!

Modifié par tklivory, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:35 .

[actionhero112]

I agree with most of your post concerning Anora. So much of this game is subjective, and my character insight can only see so far. I'd like to say that Anora's ample bosom contains the secrets and wisdom to ruling Ferelden good natured-ly. But unfortunately so much of the game's characters change from playthrough to playthrough, that is hard to find qualities that define them all the time. It is refreshing to read another's.

And I see your disingenuous and raise you one assertion!

Anyways, once Loghain publicly surrenders to you at the landsmeet, in front of the ruling class, is there any reason to kill him? You probably gain more allies by not killing him and allowing him to live on a short leash. I think that not falling for Alistair's witty personality and devilish charm, and allowing loghain to live is more beneficial than allowing the cold steel of the executioner's blade to meet Loghain's venerable flesh surrounding his brainstem. Loghain still probably had allies and not killing him probably would have decreased the likely-hood of them turning against you. However, Alistair will not stand for this and will throw an adorable mini tantrum at the idea of Loghain being allowed to live.

Why should one man's desire for ultimate vengeance be placed over the fate of the realm?

I think these threads turn into Alistair vs Loghain because you see Loghain a lot more, and, to be frank, Loghain is way more interesting to analyze than Anora.

Modifié par actionhero112, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:39 .

[tklivory]

actionhero112 wrote...

I agree with most of your post concerning Anora. So much of this game is subjective, and my character insight can only see so far. I'd like to say that Anora's ample bosom contain's the secrets and wisdom to ruling Ferelden good natured-ly. But unfortunately so much of the game's characters change from playthrough to playthrough, that is hard to find qualities that define them all the time. It is refreshing to read another's.

Ah, a statement Zevran could fully...support!

And I see your disingenuous and raise you one assertion!

Anyways, once Loghain publicly surrenders to you at the landsmeet, in front of the ruling class, is there any reason to kill him?

One reason: game mechanics.  There is evidence that originally, they were going to allow Loghain and Alistair to both be in the party at the same time (when the Landsmeet was just another major quest that could be done at any time) but that budget put the kibosh on that.   I would have loved to see that.

So the writers were forced to put an "Alistair or Loghain" game mechanic into the game, and we've debated about it ever since!  The En--- oh, wait... 

You probably gain more allies by not killing him and allowing him to live on a short leash. I think that not falling for Alistair's witty personality and devilish charm, and allowing loghain to live is more beneficial than allowing the cold steel of the executioner's blade to meet Loghain's venerable flesh surrounding his brainstem. Loghain still probably had allies and not killing him probably would have decreased the likely-hood of them turning against you. However, Alistair will not stand for this and will throw an adorable mini tantrum at the idea of Loghain being allowed to live.

Not sure about the bolded part, as, if you play a politically savvy Warden, you manage to pretty much remove all his support except for the old dude that also liked Arl Howe.  So that is debatable.

Also, I've played a game where my Warden was at -96 approval with Alistair and still offed Loghain because Loghain tried to sell his father to the Imperium, so it isn't always a matter of 'falling for the witty personality and devilish charm'.  (Which a lot of players would tell you Alistair doesn't have, anyway)

Also, tantrums from grown men?  Absolutely smexy hot  Just part of the writing.

I think these threads turn into Alistair vs Loghain because you see Loghain a lot more, and, to be frank, Loghain is way more interesting to analyze.

'Tis true.  Still, keeps the boards going, which I totally approve of!

Modifié par tklivory, 02 décembre 2011 - 05:44 .

[Bleachrude]

Persephone wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

It should be noted that going by the game, Loghain has been screwing over Alistair even BEFORE Ostagar.

Remember, when you ask Loghain why maric never acknowleded Alistair, Loghain doesn't say "oh, I'm not convinced he's maric's son".
 

Eh? How do you know that? None of that is in the game? Maric chose to give up his son by Fiona (Whom many consider to be Alistair) before Loghain even knew that the child EXISTED. He made that DECISION himself. Shocking, I know, but not every screwup in Alistair's life can be blamed on Loghain. Actually, very few. if any. can be.

Loghain talks about Maric 
(jump to the 1:30 mark)

That pretty much acknowledges that Loghain knew about alistair. Furthermore, given that Maric would've acknoeldged him but was counselled against it (How much you want to bet it was both Eamon AND Loghain - probably the last time those two agreed on anything), yeah, I do think Loghain has been screwing him over...

His reasons (would make Rowen look bad and Cailan's status in doubt) make no sense. Rowen was dead and Cailan was the elder AND the son of the Queen (we're never told if Rowen was either Queen-consort or Queen-Regent).

EDIT: Loghain

The thing I never got is WHY he would not just blame the wardens for not protecting Cailan but to actually state that the Wardens actually killed him?

That makes no sense since at the time, everybody thought all the wardens were dead..

Modifié par Bleachrude, 02 décembre 2011 - 01:24 .

[Persephone]

Bleachrude wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

It should be noted that going by the game, Loghain has been screwing over Alistair even BEFORE Ostagar.

Remember, when you ask Loghain why maric never acknowleded Alistair, Loghain doesn't say "oh, I'm not convinced he's maric's son".
 

Eh? How do you know that? None of that is in the game? Maric chose to give up his son by Fiona (Whom many consider to be Alistair) before Loghain even knew that the child EXISTED. He made that DECISION himself. Shocking, I know, but not every screwup in Alistair's life can be blamed on Loghain. Actually, very few. if any. can be.

Loghain talks about Maric 
(jump to the 1:30 mark)

That pretty much acknowledges that Loghain knew about alistair. Furthermore, given that Maric would've acknoeldged him but was counselled against it (How much you want to bet it was both Eamon AND Loghain - probably the last time those two agreed on anything), yeah, I do think Loghain has been screwing him over...

I know this dialogue. I also read "The Calling". In which Maric HIMSELF decides that he cannot keep Fiona's child. (Which I believe was Alistair) And Loghain didn't even know about the child then.

So no, no solid proof to "blame" Loghain for that reasonable decision Maric made.

[Mike3207]

tklivory wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

I accept that both Alistair and Anora have character flaws-the difference to me is their decision about Ferelden. Alistair leaves the country during the Blight, and Anora does what she can to make things better for Ferelden. Alistair's decision could have destroyed Ferelden- I simply see no excuse for it.

I honestly don't see the intellectual continuity here.  How is Anora refusing to marry someone because he killed her father 'better for Fereldan' if that marriage would ensure continuity and stability of government?




Killing your intended spouse's father will do a good job of ending most marriage plans.




  How does withdrawing promised support for the Grey Wardens during a Blight because they wouldn't prevaricate concerning her father's fate 'better for Fereldan'?




She's not withdrawing support from the Wardens, it's her support to give or not as she chooses. I wouldn't support someone who made it clear they would murder my father either.

 


How is Anora refusing to acknowledge the King chosen by the Landsmeet 'better for Fereldan'?



If she truly believes she will be a better ruler than Alistair, I can understand her refusing to give her support. What I don't like is her saying the civil war will continue-that's going too far.



How is refusing to stand up to her father 'better for Fereldan'?  Yes, she reaches out to the Warden for help later in the game, but at no point in the game do we see her do anything but defend her father's actions until it reaches the point that she perceives she will lose power, even when we know that she herself doubts him.  We don't see any direct evidence (only comments from other characters) that she has any influence over the Bannorn during the civil war, so why should we automatically assume that she would be able to handle them after the rulership is decided in the Landsmeet?  Who shows up to welcome Arl Eamon and the Wardens when they arrive at Denerim?  Loghain and Howe, NOT Anora.




Did you miss the part where she was imprisoned by Howe when you arrive in Denerim. As for opposing her father, she does what she can. He's the General who's got support of the troops.





So yeah, I don't see the 'better for Fereldan' argument here. 




Also, what is the difference between a strong Queen and a puppet King/Queen with a strong puppetmaster?  Besides, a lot of people talk about making their Warden Chancellor after the Blight to rule from the shadows, so to speak. France operated quite well under that model for centuries, TBH (and that is if you assume that Alistair is too weak to be an effective King, which is debatable, though I won't debate that here). 

As you see no excuse for Alistair's behavior, I see no equivalent excuse for Anora's behavior in the above scenarios.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 02 décembre 2011 - 07:57 .

[Mike3207]

@Plaintiff-I don't think Eamon was a option. I believe he was poisoned before the Battle of Ostagar.

[tklivory]

Mike Smith wrote...

Killing your intended spouse's father will do a good job of ending most marriage plans.

Well, yeah, except that most people expect Alistair to just cheerfully marry the daughter of the woman who killed his father figure without punishment (and is in fact, rewarded for doing so, at least in Alistair's mind) if Loghain lives, and then whine when Alistair complains or refuses.  This is merely following the line of thought that Anora is allowed to be indulgent of her feelings but Alistair generally is lambasted for it.  They both suffered, they both have the potential for loss.  Why is Alistair constantly criticized for it, but Anora is given a free pass?

As well, if Anora truly had the best for Fereldan in her heart, she would have been willing to marry Alistair regardless of his role in her Father's death.  Do I actually believe that, as a human, she should marry Alistair at that point?  Maker, no, it would be hard to expect anyone to accept someone into their lives that had murdered someone dear to him/her - whether as husband or as father-in-law. 

She's not withdrawing support from the Wardens, it's her support to give or not as she chooses. I wouldn't support someone who made it clear they would murder my father either.

This is a personal decision of Anora's, and has nothing to do with the 'good of Fereldan'.  I was pointing out not that her action doesn't make sense (it totally does, given the circumstances) but that by choosing to make this decision, she was putting her own emotional well-being above the 'good of Fereldan', thus negating the argument that she acted more for the 'good of Fereldan' than for her own ends.

If she truly believes she will be a better ruler than Alistair, I can understand her refusing to give her support. What I don't like is her saying the civil war will continue-that's going too far.

Exactly.  She is putting her own bias before the decision of the accepted governing body of Fereldan (the Landsmeet).  This does *not* reflect someone who has the 'good of Fereldan' above her own interests in her heart, which was the point of my post originally.

Did you miss the part where she was imprisoned by Howe when you arrive in Denerim. As for opposing her father, she does what she can. He's the General who's got support of the troops.

No, and i did address this in a later post.  We assume (as a player, not as the Warden) that she is in prison when the Wardens arrive, but the Warden doesn't know that until later.  (plus, given how screwy the timeline is in the game, it is definitely an 'assumption' not concrete that she is in prison at that time.)

Regardless, this is still not a ringing endorsement of her ability to rule, if she can't even keep her own general, who also happens to be her father, under control, or work successfully with the most powerful noble in the realm outside of her father and Eamon...  And we still don't see her standing up to her father, as it was Howe she went to, not her father.


EDIT:  

One final point above and beyond the wall o' text above: I'm not trying to say that Anora's actions and decisions are unjustifiable (as I can very much see why she does what she does), I am merely saying that we shouldn't make a blanket statement like 'she does it for the good of Fereldan' because, to me, that just doesn't ring true.  And I usually make her sole Queen (and not *just* because I like to ride of f into the sunset with Alistair, that's maybe 20% of my playthroughs, so stop snickering).  There are reasons to make her Queen, but doing it for her patriotism and altruism alone aren't among them.  That's all!


Wall o' text threads = awesomesauce

Modifié par tklivory, 02 décembre 2011 - 09:22 .

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, I cannot imagine anyone expecting Anora to marry the man she just witness lopping off her father's head. She won't marry a HNM either if he's the one who killed Loghain. Alistair at least had some time to adjust. I'm not saying it's a great situation, but really, Anora is not the one who killed Duncan. I just don't think it's fair to compare their situations at all.

[Wulfram]

Chopping Alistair's head off is OK to stop civil war, but not marrying him?

[tklivory]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, I cannot imagine anyone expecting Anora to marry the man she just witness lopping off her father's head. She won't marry a HNM either if he's the one who killed Loghain. Alistair at least had some time to adjust. I'm not saying it's a great situation, but really, Anora is not the one who killed Duncan. I just don't think it's fair to compare their situations at all.

No, they aren't comparable.  (I'm totally serious, I agree).  The relativistic notion that they suffer the exact same loss is not what I meant to imply, and I apologize if that is how it comes across.

However:

Anora lost a father she worshipped in an absolutely horrific, scarring fashion right in front of her, a father that she acknowledged had made very bad mistakes and poor judgment calls. Prior to the Landsmeet, she asks you to show mercy, not because she truly sees her father as having done that badly, but because she knows that the Warden, at least, might perceive Loghain as deserving of the final punishment.

Alistair lost not only his father figure, but also all his brothers (the Wardens, not Cailan) and his King.  Then he is blamed for their deaths, hounded by the man who he perceives as responsible for the deaths, has assassins and bounty hunters sent after him, is imprisoned (or sees a lover/friend imprisoned) for trying to help Anora, and gets to watch the country he loves (as is evidenced by his flat refusal to leave when the PC suggests they go to get help and his willingness to accept death via Archdemon in the end if no DR is pursued) fall into a civil war fomented by the one who he believes started all the trouble in the first place.

Are the equivalent?  Maker, no.  But saying that Anora's injury is worse simply because of the nature and timing of it seems, well, a bit... off, I suppose.  My point is, they both suffered, in a way that cannot relativistically be compared, and saying that Anora's is 'worse' is a quick analysis of a situation that deserves further thought.

Modifié par tklivory, 02 décembre 2011 - 10:06 .