486 réponses à ce sujet

[Joy Divison]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

Anora is power hungry? Really? Next you'll tell me that Isabella likes sex, and Oghren is a fan of drinking.
Really though, even if you do agree to support her, if you say that Loghain has to die, she'll still turn on you. God, that was a shock the first time.

Anders dislikes Templars

On topic: Yes she is and her betrayal was one of the things that made the game different, unexpected, and quite good.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:48 .

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: Another way to get Anora to betray you is to tell her you won't support her and actually, she will also betray you if you don't talk to her at all.

How is it a betrayal when there's no deal made about cooperation to begin with? I'd consider it instead plain vying for power, and one any warden with iq of 80+ should be able to anticipate, considering you're actively trying to throw her off the throne, using a questionable usurper as leverage.

[ejoslin]

tmp7704 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: Another way to get Anora to betray you is to tell her you won't support her and actually, she will also betray you if you don't talk to her at all.

How is it a betrayal when there's no deal made about cooperation to begin with? I'd consider it instead plain vying for power, and one any warden with iq of 80+ should be able to anticipate, considering you're actively trying to throw her off the throne, using a questionable usurper as leverage.

Ah, this is a matter of semantics, though yes, I worded it badly.  I should have said that she will go against the warden at the landsmeet instead of saying betrayed because you're right, there really is no betrayal if she didn't say she would support the warden.  

Edit: Though thinking about it, if you DO talk to her and say you are going to support Alistair as king, she gives no indication at all that she won't support the warden at the landsmeet, which could be seen as a betrayal as well.  Plus, since her not supporting the warden at the landsmeet is in essence calling for his/her imprisonment and most likely execution as she says that the warden kidnapped her and accuses the warden of treason, that could also be seen as a betrayal.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:56 .

[BlackEmperor]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I don't think she's power hungry. She certainly doesn't want to be deposed, however, not after she's been practically running the country and hasn't done anything wrong. She knows she has no control over Loghain who, let's face it, is a powerful man, hero of the people, and has the army behind him. She knows Loghain is making decisions she doesn't agree with, but can't stop him.

She goes to the Warden. So long as she gets to keep her position at court and get recognised for the work she's been doing anyway, she'll support you all the way. Against her own father. If it turns out the Warden isn't going to support her, of course she'll betray you. You're kicking her out of her home, stripping her of her position, and what has she done to deserve that? That's not being power hungry; that's simply trying to keep what's hers.

Usurping her position and piggybacking on Alistair's royal claim to become queen? Now that's power hungry. You don't ask him about it beforehand, nor do you propose. You announce it before everyone.

Being able to control your own generals is a key part of being a good leader. If she needs me to take care of her problems, it does make me wonder why I wouldn't be a better ruler than her.

I don't really see a difference between being hungry to attain power and being hungry to keep the power you already have. Sure, it's self-preservation too. Who doesn't like living in a palace? I don't fault her for that. But if she were a better ruler, we wouldn't be in the position we are when the Landsmeet arrived.

And to be fair, the game doesn't *give* you the option to talk to Alistair about it beforehand. I tried--honestly I did. That dialogue apparently is just not there. And if Anora can talk herself into believing that what she's doing is for the good of Fereldan, then so can I, can't I? 

[Mike3207]

The only mistake I think she makes prior to the Landsmmet is making her father the Regent after Cailan's death. All of her problems from that point to the Landsmeet can really be said to be a result of that decision. She would have been in a much stronger position if she remained sole ruler from Cailan's death to the Landmeet.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 14 octobre 2011 - 06:22 .

[Addai]

BlackEmperor wrote...
She is indeed a skilled politician, but her record up until the Landsmeet has not exactly inspired confidence--in me, anyway.

I tend to agree with you.  Anora's sort of ruthlessness and abject politicking does not sit well with me, even if intellectually I can admire it and see how useful it is.

Whether the Warden is actually a competent replacement for Anora or not- that's not a given by any means.  a) You have a physical disease which has real consequences to the effectiveness of any rule and even moreso to a succession, You don't have any political standing on your own without Eamon, even as a Cousland, whereas Anora still has solid support among both the nobility and the populace, c) You are beholden to a foreign order with very shady background, d) Your armies are limited to only one purpose- defeating a Blight- and the fact that you raised them doesn't necessarily mean you're any good at statecraft.  You can get to the same place just by bludgeoning masses of people.  Excelling at bloodshed has political usefulness, but it's not the only thing. d)  Both the Warden and Anora have a talent for surviving- useful, but since you both have it, it cancels out.

Finally, let's remember you're not really being evaluated as a replacement to Anora, just as royal consort.  The only thing you Persuade the Landsmeet (and Alistair) about is that the Warden makes a suitable marriage prospect for the new king.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 octobre 2011 - 06:40 .

[tklivory]

tmp7704 wrote...

If i remember the dialogue tree/scripting for that bit right, the only way to make Anora "betray" you is by creating a situation where she knows (from what you explicitly tell her while in Eamon's mansion) that you'll insist on punishing Loghain afterwards -- that's what sets the 'betray at landsmeet" plot flag.

So essentially, she does it only in situation where she thinks her father is going to be executed as the outcome, trying to prevent it. Power hungry "me me me" attitude, indeed.

Based on my playthroughs, there are 4 total situations where she will betray you:
1) If you betray her first (by telling Cauthrien who she is in Howe's estate)
2) If you don't talk to her at all when she asks you to (since she doesn't know where you stand then)
3) If you tell her that you wil support Alistair *instead* of her or otherwise refuse to give her your support
4) Tell her that Loghain will be executed (will meet justice)

So there are four ways that she will turn against you, only some of which bespeak a power-hungry nature.  I think she's a good politician and a poor leader.  What's the saying?  "A politician for peace, a leader for war, and rarely the twain shall be the same."  I can't imagine her leading the army by herself (i.e., without the Warden) into a battle against the Blight, which is why she approaches you.

Also, I still suspect that she did indeed engineer her capture by/rescue from Howe.  Doesn't Loghain hint as much if he becomes a Companion?  Or am I misremembering that?

[tklivory]

Mike Smith wrote...

The only mistake I think she makes prior to the Landsmmet is making her father the Regent after Cailan's death. All of her problems from that point to the Landsmeet can really be said to be a result of that decision. She would have been in a much stronger position if she remained sole ruler from Cailan's death to the Landmeet.

I always worked under the assumption that she made him Regent because he was a war leader and war was coming (either a civil war or the Blight).  Her statement to Teagan that her father knows best also emphasizes that impression I had.

Also, one could also question whether she made him Regent, or whether Loghain merely informed her that he was now Regent until the Landsmeet confirmed her as Queen.  Loghain was the next most powerful noble after her in Fereldan with Cousland dead, after all, as well as being the Hero of River Dane, etc.  I could see a man as certain in his convictions as Loghain taking that decision away from a daughter who worships him.

Edited for scarecrow if i only had a brain syndrome

Modifié par tklivory, 14 octobre 2011 - 06:50 .

[BlackEmperor]

Addai67 wrote...

BlackEmperor wrote...
She is indeed a skilled politician, but her record up until the Landsmeet has not exactly inspired confidence--in me, anyway.

I tend to agree with you.  Anora's sort of ruthlessness and abject politicking does not sit well with me, even if intellectually I can admire it and see how useful it is.

Whether the Warden is actually a competent replacement for Anora or not- that's not a given by any means.  a) You have a physical disease which has real consequences to the effectiveness of any rule and even moreso to a succession, You don't have any political standing on your own without Eamon, even as a Cousland, whereas Anora still has solid support among both the nobility and the populace, c) You are beholden to a foreign order with very shady background, d) Your armies are limited to only one purpose- defeating a Blight- and the fact that you raised them doesn't necessarily mean you're any good at statecraft.  You can get to the same place just by bludgeoning masses of people.  Excelling at bloodshed has political usefulness, but it's not the only thing. d)  Both the Warden and Anora have a talent for surviving- useful, but since you both have it, it cancels out.

Finally, let's remember you're not really being evaluated as a replacement to Anora, just as royal consort.  The only thing you Persuade the Landsmeet (and Alistair) about is that the Warden makes a suitable marriage prospect for the new king.

Tis true. Two wardens severely limits the chance of having an heir, and there's a chance you could pull an Asturian and go completely bonkers while still in power. And Asturian was just in charge of an obscure keep. Imagine the damage one would do if the head of a nation. The wardens, as a foreign order, do have a mixed reputation. On the one hand, they were banned for starting a rebellion. On the other hand, they are mostly well respected. This is the opinion shared by many in the origin stories, and Loghain himself says, "They have an honored place in the hearts of our people." It's why he expends so much effort to tarnish their reputation after Ostagar. So it's hard to read that as either net positive or net negative.

If the Landsmeet is proof of anything though, it's that Anora's support amongst the nobles is anything but solid. Yes, it's because you have Eamon on your side--but that's not for nothing either. Anora only has Loghain on her side because she's his daughter.

The armies you raise are limited to stopping a Blight because that's what you're out to do. I'd like to think that it means you're at least decent at statecraft. If Loghain's results are any sign of the efficacy of Loghain's tactics (i.e. bludgeoning masses of people), it's a sign that you're at least somewhat capable at diplomacy. More so than Anora and Loghain, anyway, who have brought the country to the point of civil war at a time when it needs to be united.

The royal consort deal really just feels like the game raining on your parade--saying you're king/queen but then saying "jk!" during the epilogue. I do get the argument people make about supporting Anora over Alistair. But Anora over a pc Cousland?... That's tougher for me to swallow. If not the stronger candidate, I'd say a pc Cousland is at least equally qualified.

[Wulfram]

tklivory wrote...

1) If you betray her first (by telling Cauthrien who she is in Howe's estate)

That's not a betrayal.  It's common sense.

[Quill74Pen]

Well, I've finished the Nova playthrough. I found it interesting that, in the post-game dialogue cards, Alistair turned to be a fine ruler with Nova as his queen. Apparently it surprised some in the population that he would become a good king. Nova knew all along that all he needed was a guiding hand and some seasoning time.

Whew. I've got three "canon" playthroughs now ready for DA2. One where Anora and Alistair rule, one where Alistair and my character both remain Grey Wardens, and now the third, with Alistair as king and Nova as queen.

I'm off to "real" work now. **LOL**

Quill74Pen

[Addai]

BlackEmperor wrote...
The royal consort deal really just feels like the game raining on your parade--saying you're king/queen but then saying "jk!" during the epilogue. I do get the argument people make about supporting Anora over Alistair. But Anora over a pc Cousland?... That's tougher for me to swallow. If not the stronger candidate, I'd say a pc Cousland is at least equally qualified.

I think it's a practical recognition that the youngest Cousland, a Warden who's been living as an outlaw, does not have a legitimate claim to Ferelden's throne.  Alistair only has one because of his Theirin blood.  You basically institute a coup, because you've got big enough armies and your family name is respected enough that you can manage to do it.

On my Cousland Warden, I had her break up with Alistair and arrange the marriage to Anora, but then decide to pull the rug out from under that deal not because she thought she was the better ruler- she did not and didn't want to be ruler- but because she feared Anora might turn on them and have Alistair executed.  I thought it ended up to me a pretty good mental story, because my Warden knew she was making an emotional and not a practical decision- but so does Anora if her father's life is threatened.  So you are well matched with Anora as a rival, both in terms of political and human reasons.

As far as what's best for Ferelden, probably Alistair + Anora or male Cousland and Anora, after that Alistair ruling alone with the Warden as chancellor/mistress (where Alistair still has a chance to produce an heir).  That's how I see it, anyway.  But they all can provide a pretty good RP setup.

Modifié par Addai67, 14 octobre 2011 - 08:31 .

[tklivory]

Wulfram wrote...

tklivory wrote...

1) If you betray her first (by telling Cauthrien who she is in Howe's estate)

That's not a betrayal.  It's common sense.

Only from the Warden's point of view (and I totally agree about that, BTW).  I was trying to explain it from Anora's point of view.  In this case, she specifically asks you not to do something, and as soon as the going gets tough, you do it anyway.  From the Warden's point of view, none of the 4 reasons I specified are a valid reason to side with her father, but she sides with him anyway if any of those are chosen by the PC.  It's a mix of game mechanics and self-interest from Anora's perspective.

Modifié par tklivory, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:24 .

[tklivory]

Addai67 wrote...

I think it's a practical recognition that the youngest Cousland, a Warden who's been living as an outlaw, does not have a legitimate claim to Ferelden's throne.  Alistair only has one because of his Theirin blood.  You basically institute a coup, because you've got big enough armies and your family name is respected enough that you can manage to do it.

Duncan says in the DN origin that becoming a Grey Warden means giving up all ties to your former life, including (in the context) the right of being an heir to the Aeducan throne.  Ser GIlmore says the same thing in the HN origin.  One could argue that the same applies to a Cousland Warden, as well.  I've always wondered why Riordan didn't bring this up as a reason to keep Alistair off the throne.  Also remember that in Sohpia Dryden's diary, one of the reasons why her becoming a Grey Warden was an acceptable 'punishment' for being Arland's rival was that it meant she would permanently give up any claim to the throne. 

This line of reasoning should have been applied equally to a Cousland Warden and to Alistair.  I've always thought it a bit of 'game mechanics' that they prevent a Cousland from presenting him/herself as a sole heir to the throne while at the same time pushing the Warden to promote Alistair to the same position.  After all, Darrion mentions that some Banns even wanted Bryce Cousland on the throne rather than Cailan, and that was only 5-7 years earlier.

Besides, the time spent living as an outlaw was also spent forming an unlikely alliance between disparate allies for the ultimate good of Fereldan.  In a government ruled by the consensus of the Landsmeet, I didn't really see a reason to prevent a Cousland Warden from not taking advantage of that fact (aside from game mechanics and running out of time/budget/&tc)

Ah, well.  for speculation!


edit: oh, and who didn't want their DN to plant that Paragon crown on their own head and say, "Yeah, b*****es! I'm the King now!"

Or was that just me?

Modifié par tklivory, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:23 .

[BlackEmperor]

Addai67 wrote...

I think it's a practical recognition that the youngest Cousland, a Warden who's been living as an outlaw, does not have a legitimate claim to Ferelden's throne.  Alistair only has one because of his Theirin blood.  You basically institute a coup, because you've got big enough armies and your family name is respected enough that you can manage to do it.

It would be legit to say it's a practical consideration, except the game leads you to believe that you are the king/queen, but then slaps your hand away in the epilogue slide by revealing you're only the prince/princess consort. It's the game's inconsistency on that matter that bothers me, not the practicality of such a move. Isn't it more accurate to say it's a counter-coup though? (If there is such a thing?) Loghain is the one who killed the king and made himself regent. You're the one putting someone with Theirin blood on the throne. You're an outlaw--but so was Maric, and he was one of Fereldan's greatest kings. You were both victims of circumstance. And while this doesn't make you any less of an outsider, you're nobility at least. Anora is a commoner. Your claim to the throne, however weak, is still stronger than hers because of that.

But I digress. This doesn't make her any less capable of ruling--any argument over legitimacy is different than one over capability.

I like the way the story played out with your pc Cousland. Tense, dramatic, emotional--very human. Knowing the hoops that I had to jump through to get on the throne without her support (I knew I could lie to her, but I didn't want to play it that way) felt a little a ridiculous. The three tries it took to figure out a combination of arguments that worked didn't help. It's very obtuse about what's working and what's not in the Landsmeet.

Yeah, in many ways you and Anora can be considered two sides of the same coin. On another topic I think someone coined a phrase by saying "killing Loghain is a very Loghain thing to do." It's true. Or when Loghain tells you that a man is defined by the quality of his enemies--and he doesn't know whether that's more a compliment to you or him. I don't remember who said it, but there's a saying that the things you despise the most about other people are the qualities you see in them that remind you of yourself. Or something to that regard. I have no doubt that's part of why I can't stand Anora so much.

I would put female pc Cousland + Alistair and Alistair + Anora as the best outcomes. As a player, I'd put the former above the latter. Then pc male Cousland + Anora. Then Alistair + pc adviser to the the throne/mistress. Not 100% as to whether I'd prefer Alistair alone or Anora alone, given those two options. This of course assuming you want what's best for Fereldan, and aren't more interested in, say, instigating chaos. 

[Persephone]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I don't think she's power hungry. She certainly doesn't want to be deposed, however, not after she's been practically running the country and hasn't done anything wrong. She knows she has no control over Loghain who, let's face it, is a powerful man, hero of the people, and has the army behind him. She knows Loghain is making decisions she doesn't agree with, but can't stop him.

She goes to the Warden. So long as she gets to keep her position at court and get recognised for the work she's been doing anyway, she'll support you all the way. Against her own father. If it turns out the Warden isn't going to support her, of course she'll betray you. You're kicking her out of her home, stripping her of her position, and what has she done to deserve that? That's not being power hungry; that's simply trying to keep what's hers.

Usurping her position and piggybacking on Alistair's royal claim to become queen? Now that's power hungry. You don't ask him about it beforehand, nor do you propose. You announce it before everyone.

This. SO this! People wondering why a queen doesn't like being deposed/jailed and or having to witness her father being butchered? How DARE she not fall at your feet but actually prefer to keep her position (A job she has done pretty well)!? 

[BlackEmperor]

tklivory wrote...

Duncan says in the DN origin that becoming a Grey Warden means giving up all ties to your former life, including (in the context) the right of being an heir to the Aeducan throne.  Ser GIlmore says the same thing in the HN origin.  One could argue that the same applies to a Cousland Warden, as well.  I've always wondered why Riordan didn't bring this up as a reason to keep Alistair off the throne.  Also remember that in Sohpia Dryden's diary, one of the reasons why her becoming a Grey Warden was an acceptable 'punishment' for being Arland's rival was that it meant she would permanently give up any claim to the throne. 

Lawlz. Well now that you mention it, this whole scenario is bunk, isn't it? (I don't remember Ser Gilmore saying that, but I probably picked a different dialogue option.) If Grey Wardens can't inherit titles, but then later it's fine for Alistair, why not have a sole Cousland ruler? Makes as much sense as anything else.

I guess it's just one of those things. Like how there's no cure for being tainted by the darkspawn... except for your dog all it takes is an obscure flower and some aloe vera. Whatever, David Gaider. Whatever.

[tklivory]

BlackEmperor wrote...

"killing Loghain is a very Loghain thing to do."

I RP'd a female Cousland in a romance with Alistair that couldn't execute Loghain because she looked at him and suddenly wondered if the feeling of self-righteousness she felt for hating Loghain was the same as what Howe felt before killing her parents.  She couldn't kill Loghain.  That... that was not a good game ending for either her or Alistair.  (stupid US ending)

But (OT) I think Anora's a fun character from the player's perspective because (like Loghain) your decisions regarding her rely almost completely on whether you choose to meta play the game or RP.

[Addai]

BlackEmperor wrote...
It would be legit to say it's a practical consideration, except the game leads you to believe that you are the king/queen, but then slaps your hand away in the epilogue slide by revealing you're only the prince/princess consort. It's the game's inconsistency on that matter that bothers me, not the practicality of such a move.

Well, I dunno.  You're never put forward as an option for the throne- it's always Alistair or Anora.  I can see why players might be bothered by it.  I was more bothered by the fact that my PC and Alistair never had a chance to discuss it privately.  That's one reason I had to work around it in my mind, to where she panicked at the LM thinking Alistair might either be executed or his bid fail without some extra support. 

Isn't it more accurate to say it's a counter-coup though? (If there is such a thing?) Loghain is the one who killed the king and made himself regent.  You're the one putting someone with Theirin blood on the throne. You're an outlaw--but so was Maric, and he was one of Fereldan's greatest kings. You were both victims of circumstance. And while this doesn't make you any less of an outsider, you're nobility at least. Anora is a commoner. Your claim to the throne, however weak, is still stronger than hers because of that.

No, because Alistair was not in the succession and Loghain is taken out of the political game in any case.  The coup is pulled on Anora.

Yeah, in many ways you and Anora can be considered two sides of the same coin. On another topic I think someone coined a phrase by saying "killing Loghain is a very Loghain thing to do." It's true.

Definitely so.  A lot of people say they realize that the Warden is Alistair's Loghain.

I would put female pc Cousland + Alistair and Alistair + Anora as the best outcomes. As a player, I'd put the former above the latter. Then pc male Cousland + Anora. Then Alistair + pc adviser to the the throne/mistress. Not 100% as to whether I'd prefer Alistair alone or Anora alone, given those two options. This of course assuming you want what's best for Fereldan, and aren't more interested in, say, instigating chaos. 

The reasons I put male Cousland and Anora as better for the country are a) there's a chance of an heir, and Anora has an edge on Alistair in terms of moving Ferelden forward.  But I know that this puts me at odds with 90% of the female fanbase.  lol  I still like King Alistair a lot- my "canon" Warden is elven mistress/ chancellor.

I do not see Alistair or Anora ruling alone as great outcomes, unless the Warden remains as chancellor.  Alistair needs help, let's be honest.  He gets it if Eamon is alive, but Eamon's kind of a snake.  And Anora needs someone to check her independence without railroading her (as her father did).  She never remarries if she's sole ruler, and it's clear she remains out of touch with the people.  Everybody does better with a good right hand.

[BlackEmperor]

tklivory wrote...

I RP'd a female Cousland in a romance with Alistair that couldn't execute Loghain because she looked at him and suddenly wondered if the feeling of self-righteousness she felt for hating Loghain was the same as what Howe felt before killing her parents.  She couldn't kill Loghain.  That... that was not a good game ending for either her or Alistair.  (stupid US ending)

Wait--so what happened to Alistair? Did you not set him up with Anora so he became a wandering drunk instead? And did you opt for the totally hardcore convo option of looking Loghain dead in the eye and saying, "No. You atone the hard way," before taking the killing blow against the Arch Demon?

I get the feeling that a lot of people RP-ed very nice fem Couslands. Mine I played like your DN. Maybe it was bcause I was a bard/assassin, maybe it was because I felt more personally wronged than I did in other origin stories (like the mage one), but I didn't have many moral quandries. With this character, I wish I had the option to execute Anora as well as Loghain at the Landsmeet. I also wish I had more of an opportunity to pummel the crap out of Arl Howe. Then again, this is also the character that slaughtered the Dalish, so none of this speaks well of her moral sensibilities.

From an RP pov, I think you can always find a justification for however you want to deal with Anora.

[Addai]

BlackEmperor wrote...
Lawlz. Well now that you mention it, this whole scenario is bunk, isn't it? (I don't remember Ser Gilmore saying that, but I probably picked a different dialogue option.) If Grey Wardens can't inherit titles, but then later it's fine for Alistair, why not have a sole Cousland ruler? Makes as much sense as anything else.

I guess it's just one of those things. Like how there's no cure for being tainted by the darkspawn... except for your dog all it takes is an obscure flower and some aloe vera. Whatever, David Gaider. Whatever.

lol

You don't have the political support to become a sole King Cous.  I know people point to that thing where some wanted Bryce as king, etc., but that's water long under the bridge and could have just been people reading the writing on Cailan's wall.

Being able to give the finger to the Wardens was one of the best parts about becoming consort for my Queen Cous. 

[BlackEmperor]

Addai67 wrote...

The reasons I put male Cousland and Anora as better for the country are a) there's a chance of an heir, and Anora has an edge on Alistair in terms of moving Ferelden forward.  But I know that this puts me at odds with 90% of the female fanbase.  lol  I still like King Alistair a lot- my "canon" Warden is elven mistress/ chancellor.

Anora's only claim to the throne was marriage to her husband, who is dead. What I mean was, is it a coup to put a legitimate heir to the throne... on the throne? Idk. One man's traitor is another man's revolutionary.

I recognize there's a better chance for an heir with a male pc Cousland + Anora, but I'm being meta in thinking that as a male pc Cousland after this I'm going to Awakening and Vigil's Keep to hunt down more darkspawn (thereby neglecting my duties as king and definitely neglecting the heir-making process) and then Witch Hunt to hunt down Morrigan and go on a Magical Mirror Mystery Tour. So I'm there two years, tops, before I'm outs. That's why I'd put the other marriage options above this one.

This is also assuming you're willing to try to produce an heir with Anora. If you have Leliana or Zevran on the side, perhaps you're not visiting her bed chambers all that often. If it's more than a marriage of political convenience to you and you're actually dedicated to being a good king (and I guess not playing Awakening because the epilogue there ram-rods you into disappearing for some reason) then this option is on par with the other marriage couplings.

 I do not see Alistair or Anora ruling alone as great outcomes, unless the Warden remains as chancellor.  Alistair needs help, let's be honest.  He gets it if Eamon is alive, but Eamon's kind of a snake.  And Anora needs someone to check her independence without railroading her (as her father did).  She never remarries if she's sole ruler, and it's clear she remains out of touch with the people.  Everybody does better with a good right hand.

Exactly. They're equally bad options. That's why I can't say which is "better." But they're both at the bottom of the list. Either one with you as chancellor is better than either one without.

[tmp7704]

ejoslin wrote...

Edit: Though thinking about it, if you DO talk to her and say you are going to support Alistair as king, she gives no indication at all that she won't support the warden at the landsmeet, which could be seen as a betrayal as well. 

I think this is just matter of common sense, really -- no ruler in their right mind should be expected to actually support a motion to be removed from the seat of power, especially in favour of candidate with as weak credentials as Alistair's. As such, if someone imagines the support from her in this situation, when none is promised, then they're just forming very unrealistic expectations.

It's also not exactly surprising she doesn't give an indication she's going to fight against the player in such situation -- she is in Eamon's mansion with just one elf not really capable of providing any defence, and there's no guarantee the player won't pull a Howe and try to lock her up or plain kill in order to remove the obstacle this way, when they learn she is actually going to be an obstacle.

[tmp7704]

Mike Smith wrote...

The only mistake I think she makes prior to the Landsmmet is making her father the Regent after Cailan's death. All of her problems from that point to the Landsmeet can really be said to be a result of that decision. She would have been in a much stronger position if she remained sole ruler from Cailan's death to the Landmeet.

Anora doesn't make Loghain the regent -- Loghain himself takes this position after return from Ostagar, using the fact he's the queen's father as excuse. And then he goes to war with these nobles who consider it (quite right) a blunt power grab.

[tklivory]

BlackEmperor wrote...

Wait--so what happened to Alistair? Did you not set him up with Anora so he became a wandering drunk instead? And did you opt for the totally hardcore convo option of looking Loghain dead in the eye and saying, "No. You atone the hard way," before taking the killing blow against the Arch Demon?

I get the feeling that a lot of people RP-ed very nice fem Couslands. Mine I played like your DN. Maybe it was bcause I was a bard/assassin, maybe it was because I felt more personally wronged than I did in other origin stories (like the mage one), but I didn't have many moral quandries. With this character, I wish I had the option to execute Anora as well as Loghain at the Landsmeet. I also wish I had more of an opportunity to pummel the crap out of Arl Howe. Then again, this is also the character that slaughtered the Dalish, so none of this speaks well of her moral sensibilities.

From an RP pov, I think you can always find a justification for however you want to deal with Anora.

This was the only F!Cousland (of 4 - OCD much?) I played that spared Loghain, so it was a weird runthrough.  She wasn't goody two-shoes, per se, but she had two hangups: parents and children.  Everyone else she could kill, but not parents or children.  I just ran with it and RP'd her having a nervous breakdown after Alistair killed Loghain and took the throne and seeing Anora's covered in her father's blood just brought back everything from the origin scenes.  I played solo-Warden from that moment on (including the Archdemon, now *that* is a fun battle to fight alone!), rejected DR, etc etc.  Worse for the Warden than for Alistair, truthfully

AAAAnyway, i've definitely played Wardens that wanted to execute Anora (and one DN that wanted to marry her, thought she was great).

Oh, and did you know there is a mod that can allow you to beat the crap out of Arl Howe?  I think it's on Nexus.