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[tklivory]

Wulfram wrote...

Chopping Alistair's head off is OK to stop civil war, but not marrying him?

Oh, yeah, and this as well.

And, if Fereldan doesn't operate by primogeniture, why can't we just make Eamon King?  And if it does operate by primogeniture, why in the Maker's name is Anora even an option?

Oy.

[actionhero112]

That scene is just laughable, Anora gets sprayed with her father's blood. I recently just watched it again, and I realized that Loghain's head pretty much exploded.

Anyways, I find that this is a huge bioware plothole in Anora's character. She's portrayed as this woman who is power-hungry enough to do anything to get on the throne, including publicly denouncing her father. Then she objects to a little issue like a political marriage?

I would have though Anora intelligent enough to realize that being having Alistair as a husband is a small price to pay for her ultimate goal, becoming queen.

[tklivory]

actionhero112 wrote...

That scene is just laughable, Anora gets sprayed with her father's blood. I recently just watched it again, and I realized that Loghain's head pretty much exploded. 

All Ritual Decaptitations happen like that in Dragon Age, it saves the budget of actually having a rolling head animation.

[ejoslin]

tklivory wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, I cannot imagine anyone expecting Anora to marry the man she just witness lopping off her father's head. She won't marry a HNM either if he's the one who killed Loghain. Alistair at least had some time to adjust. I'm not saying it's a great situation, but really, Anora is not the one who killed Duncan. I just don't think it's fair to compare their situations at all.

No, they aren't comparable.  (I'm totally serious, I agree).  The relativistic notion that they suffer the exact same loss is not what I meant to imply, and I apologize if that is how it comes across.

However:

Anora lost a father she worshipped in an absolutely horrific, scarring fashion right in front of her, a father that she acknowledged had made very bad mistakes and poor judgment calls. Prior to the Landsmeet, she asks you to show mercy, not because she truly sees her father as having done that badly, but because she knows that the Warden, at least, might perceive Loghain as deserving of the final punishment.

Alistair lost not only his father figure, but also all his brothers (the Wardens, not Cailan) and his King.  Then he is blamed for their deaths, hounded by the man who he perceives as responsible for the deaths, has assassins and bounty hunters sent after him, is imprisoned (or sees a lover/friend imprisoned) for trying to help Anora, and gets to watch the country he loves (as is evidenced by his flat refusal to leave when the PC suggests they go to get help and his willingness to accept death via Archdemon in the end if no DR is pursued) fall into a civil war fomented by the one who he believes started all the trouble in the first place.

Are the equivalent?  Maker, no.  But saying that Anora's injury is worse simply because of the nature and timing of it seems, well, a bit... off, I suppose.  My point is, they both suffered, in a way that cannot relativistically be compared, and saying that Anora's is 'worse' is a quick analysis of a situation that deserves further thought.

Has anyone said hers was worse?  I sure didn't.  Hers certainly was far more recent which was my point -- as in moments before.  I know I would NOT be able to make ANY rational decision had I just seen something like that with my own father.  That she is able to keep it together to try and keep fighting for what she thinks is best for Ferelden is laudable was my point.  That she could not marry the man she *just* saw kill her father, minutes earlier, is completely understandable.  Yes, what Alistair went through was horrible; at that point, though, he had had nearly a year to adjust (and yes, I know healing takes longer than this, but it is still a long time).  And Anora wasn't the one who was responsible for those deaths -- she was a bystander in that entire situation.

Edit: Since I didn't quote in my first text, THIS was the only part of your post I was responding to:

tklivory wrote...
Well, yeah, except that most people expect Alistair to just cheerfully marry the daughter of the woman who killed his father figure without punishment (and is in fact, rewarded for doing so, at least in Alistair's mind) 

And my point was that her loss was far more recent.  No one expects them to be cheerfully marrying each other -- neither of them really wants to be wed to the other for their own reasons. If Alistair had just watched Anora take Duncan's head off while he was kneeling before her, yielding, yeh, I don't think ANYONE would question his refusal to marry her (except for obvious trolls of course).  

That's all.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 décembre 2011 - 08:33 .

[tklivory]

ejoslin wrote...

I don't think ANYONE would question his refusal to marry her (except for obvious trolls of course).  

Thar be trolls about!



Sorry, I always think of this picture when trolls are brought up... Couldn't resist...

And thanks for the clarification!  Obviously waxed a bit muches on the subject, myself...

[WhiteKnyght]

tklivory wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Chopping Alistair's head off is OK to stop civil war, but not marrying him?

Oh, yeah, and this as well.

And, if Fereldan doesn't operate by primogeniture, why can't we just make Eamon King?  And if it does operate by primogeniture, why in the Maker's name is Anora even an option?

Oy.

Eamon would never personally take the throne. He's too obsessed with Calenhad's blood. He would prefer to pull the strings from behind the curtains if need be.

If Eamon had a daughter, he'd probably insist that Alistair or his future heir marry her as Maric did Rowan.

One thing I like about Eamon is that he has a good moral compass and he apparently passed that onto Alistair. Pragmatism is just too cold sometimes. After all, what good is a country's freedom if it's citizens aren't happy?

[Wulfram]

Eamon wouldn't claim the throne so long as there was the prospect of Alistair doing so, but I wouldn't say he'd never do so. If Alistair had died at Ostagar, he'd probably have had a go.

Though I doubt he'd have been a strong candidate. The codex says of him

"A well-respected man, though not the most charismatic, King Cailan once said of him, "My Uncle Eamon is a man everyone thinks well of--when they remember to think of him at all.""

[Cobwebmaster]

I think that the conclusions drawn here about the central characters in the power struggle for control of Ferelden are pretty damning at the same time as being an accurate character analysis. Other than the warden there isn't anyone around who seems capable of running the place unless maybe it's Bann Teagan. How Loghain won the battle of the River Plate ? against the Orlesians is beyond me. He demonstrates the ability of one unable to fight his way out of a paper bag tactically and diplomatically. The only other long standing Teyrnir occupant Cousland has been assassinated so the country is pretty much leaderless, and ripe for it's collapse into warring fiefdoms. The logical choice for the warden is to recruit Loghain into the order, What happens to Alastair is irrelevant in that sense, but leaving Anora in throne alone is just too dangerous. Now that the plot line has deliberately merged politics with the Wardens neutrality it all ends up in pretty much the same mess that it was in at the time of the Dryden farce except in this case the national power base has been broken by the warden. Ergo where possible the warden must take power if only to ensure the country's short term stability. Whatever happens there is going to be another power struggle anyway. Anora is pretty much incapable of producing an heir which I assume she would have done at some point during her marriage to Cailan. Being wed to a male Warden isn't going to do a great deal in the reproductive stakes as the potion seems to make wardens largely impotent (unless you have magic ritual number one designed to achieve a genetically modifiable fetus), and who wants to be ruled by a reincarnated God? Not the Chantry certainly! Maybe that's not such a bad thing as the one they had left some time ago and they spend most of their time wailing and pleading about it.

[Augustei]

How is Loghain being General a reason for Anora not to oppose him? Because being General means your power exceeds the crown.. As seen how High General Harrowmont already had the dwarvern throne when we got to Orzammar =P. Fereldens political system is very similar to Orzammars in the sense that the soldiers belong to the Noble Lords and they dedicate them to the armies. If Loghain has his armies because a majority of the noble lords allow him to.. And Anora's opposition of her father results in her failure to stop this then she is not the great administrator she perceives herself to be anyway and doesn't have power over her own Nobles.

[Mike3207]

XxDeonxX wrote...

How is Loghain being General a reason for Anora not to oppose him? Because being General means your power exceeds the crown.. As seen how High General Harrowmont already had the dwarvern throne when we got to Orzammar =P. Fereldens political system is very similar to Orzammars in the sense that the soldiers belong to the Noble Lords and they dedicate them to the armies. If Loghain has his armies because a majority of the noble lords allow him to.. And Anora's opposition of her father results in her failure to stop this then she is not the great administrator she perceives herself to be anyway and doesn't have power over her own Nobles.

I'll give this a try-Loghain is not only General, but he has been named Regent as well. I'm really not sure the exact ruling situation in this period. Anora is the surviving Queen, but has not been confirmed Queen by the Landsmeet.All decisions go through Loghain, so the Regent may have more power than Cailan's widow. It takes a vote by the Landsmeet to remove Loghain as Regent. It was a mistake to make Loghain the Regent, but until the Landsmmet removes him he is the ruler in the land. In short, Loghain is the ruler of Ferelden from Ostagar to the Landsmeet.

[Augustei]

He is Regent self proclaimed however, the landsmeet did not decide he should be as such. And he became regent because his daughter allowed him to do so, she still should hold power however, at least enough to oppose him

[Cobwebmaster]

XxDeonxX wrote...

He is Regent self proclaimed however, the landsmeet did not decide he should be as such. And he became regent because his daughter allowed him to do so, she still should hold power however, at least enough to oppose him

I think the key here is that after the death of Cailan, Loghain as the Teyrn of Guaren was the Highest ranking noble in Ferelden . The death of the King Cailan saw the end of the line of Calenhad the silver knight. With no heirs to inherit the crown, everything is up for grabs. Loghain takes power as regent as there is no one to stand against him (Arl Eamon poisoned, Couslands assassinated and Calenhads old allies the Circle are in disarray. The Ash warriors, Calenhads old troops now work for Loghain anyway. 

With no legal heir (and Alastair presumed dead) Anora has no claim to the throne at all that would fit a feudal system such as Ferelden's. Had there been an heir then she could have easily claimed the regency. If the Army was intact she also could have claimed power, but it was destroyed at Ostagar. The only one around with any troops was LOghain so while Anora may have had certain rights she had no way to enforce them especially with Howe as the Arl of Denerim commanding all the troops in Fort Drakon. 

Anora's only hope to gain independance from her father is I think an alliance with someone else. The best scenario for her is the Cousland family but that puts her in direct opposition to her father who likely would have her assassinated. Apart from her ability as an administrator she has no claim that anyone in the Landsmeet would accept while Loghain is alive.