486 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackEmperor]

tklivory wrote...

Oh, and did you know there is a mod that can allow you to beat the crap out of Arl Howe?  I think it's on Nexus.

I'm aware of it. I've come across it before. I've never felt so sadistic as to try it out though. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

BlackEmperor wrote...

Being able to control your own generals is a key part of being a good leader. If she needs me to take care of her problems, it does make me wonder why I wouldn't be a better ruler than her.

I agree with you, but I don't think you fully appreciate her position in respect of Loghain's.

Anora was a good ruler, but Loghain took the reins when war broke out. He's a decorated war hero, and all Fereldan knows it. How is Anora, who is not a beloved hero, supposed to compete with such popularity? This has nothing to do with her being a good or bad ruler, but who has the stronger support of the people by virtue of every mother and father telling stories about the awesome Loghain Mac Tir.

Plus, like I said, the whole Loghain being her dad thing kinda makes it even harder for her.

I don't really see a difference between being hungry to attain power and being hungry to keep the power you already have. Sure, it's self-preservation too. Who doesn't like living in a palace? I don't fault her for that. But if she were a better ruler, we wouldn't be in the position we are when the Landsmeet arrived.

By definition, power hungry means a drive to acquire (additional) power. A desire to keep what you already have isn't power hunger, otherwise we'd all be guilty of that in one way or another.

I don't understand why people keep blaming her for Fereldan's condition, though. What was she supposed to do that didn't involve having her father killed?

And to be fair, the game doesn't *give* you the option to talk to Alistair about it beforehand. I tried--honestly I did. That dialogue apparently is just not there.

True. The game doesn't give you many dialogue options is should before the Landsmeet. But how would suggesting to Alistair beforehand that you be his queen be that much different to announcing it at the Landsmeet? It would still have been your PC's idea, and thus could be perceived as a power grab.

And if Anora can talk herself into believing that what she's doing is for the good of Fereldan, then so can I, can't I? 

I never said you couldn't. That doesn't mean she's power hungry, or that your Queen Cousland isn't.

[Mike3207]

tmp7704 wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

The only mistake I think she makes prior to the Landsmmet is making her father the Regent after Cailan's death. All of her problems from that point to the Landsmeet can really be said to be a result of that decision. She would have been in a much stronger position if she remained sole ruler from Cailan's death to the Landmeet.

Anora doesn't make Loghain the regent -- Loghain himself takes this position after return from Ostagar, using the fact he's the queen's father as excuse. And then he goes to war with these nobles who consider it (quite right) a blunt power grab.

It's mentioned as one of the rumors that you get from the dwarven merchants-Anora does proclaim her father the Regent after Cailan's death. How reliable the dwarven rumors are, IDK. They also say Anora is barren, which may or may not be true.

[BlackEmperor]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I agree with you, but I don't think you fully appreciate her position in respect of Loghain's.

Anora was a good ruler, but Loghain took the reins when war broke out. He's a decorated war hero, and all Fereldan knows it. How is Anora, who is not a beloved hero, supposed to compete with such popularity? This has nothing to do with her being a good or bad ruler, but who has the stronger support of the people by virtue of every mother and father telling stories about the awesome Loghain Mac Tir.

I thought Anora had a solid base of support among commoners and nobility. Isn't that the argument she makes to you when she's trying to get your support in the Landsmeet? Are you saying she's completely powerless without her father? Or that she's simply unwilling to exercise that power against him?

Without going off about semantics (okay, she's not power *hungry* she just really really likes it a whole lot--although if Loghain is what's standing in her way of exercising authority and you're about to solve that problem for her, is that not a net gain of power?), I do understand that she's in a difficult position because of her father's machinations. Could she have done something to reign in the civil war that's engulfing Fereldan? I have no idea. She doesn't appear to have any affect on it one way or the other, which means she's either unable or unwilling. It seems like she's only an effective ruler with people she can easily control, and that's not a strong endoresment for her to be Fereldan's ruler.

Allow me to pose a hypothetical: let's say you lost the Landsmeet, and Eamon (for whatever reason) didn't issue a call to arms. What would have happened? You, Alistair, and Riordan would be in prison at best. I'm pretty sure when you lose Loghain actually calls for your execution. Anora is either unable or unwilling to act against her father, so now there are no more Grey Wardens in Fereldan. The treaties oblige elves, dwarves, and mages to help the Grey Wardens during a Blight--not the ruler of Fereldan.

What then? Who stops the Blight? Who slays the Archdemon? The country is lost.

This is what gets me about Anora. Granted, you may not have gotten her support by simply not talking to her or by revealing who she was in the Arl's mansion during your escape, but on the other hand, it may very well be because you refuse to support her or because you insist that Loghain face justice. At the crucial moment, when the fate of nation was in the balance, when everything started coming together and the country could at last be united and save itself, she was willing to throw it all away because of her fanatically narrow-minded self-interest. Because she couldn't bear to see her father pay for her crimes, and she couldn't imagine anyone but herself in the lead.

Yes, it's a very human failing. Yes, it's her father, so perhaps she can't help it all the same. But that doesn't make it any less of a terrible weakness that leads to a breathtaking failure of judgement.

In the end, you're the one willing to do what's necessary. And she isn't. That's why pc Cousland gets my vote over Anora.

[Mike3207]

BE, no one knows at the time of the Landsmeet that only Wardens can kill the Archdemon. The Ferelden Wardens only find out when they go to Redcliffe.If anyone is to blame, it would have to be the Grey Warden organization. You can't blame Anora for that, not when Loghain puts out a contract for the last 2 Grey Wardens. I expect things would have been different if it had been known.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 15 octobre 2011 - 02:47 .

[BlackEmperor]

Mike Smith wrote...

BE, no one knows at the time of the Landsmeet that only Wardens can kill the Archdemon. The Ferelden Wardens only find out when they go to Redcliffe.If anyone is to blame, it would have to be the Grey Warden organization. You can't blame Anora for that, not when Loghain puts out a contract for the last 2 Grey Wardens. I expect things would have been different if it had been known.

I don't disagree that the fact that the Grey Wardens keep this a secret keep this a secret makes absolutely no sense to me. Even if you wanted to keep it a secret from the general populace, Riordan could've spoken up about it before the Landsmeet.

But doesn't Anora also know that Grey Wardens have ended every single Blight that Thedas has ever seen? And that therefore having Wardens on hand--especially these Wardens in particular, who have already gathered an army specifically to fight against the Blight--would be a good idea?

So if push comes to shove, and Anora is forced to choose between supporting you and Alistair or herself and her father, how does she rationalize? If she supports you, she supports the Grey Wardens who have fought against the Blights, the ones who have gathered an army of the races of Thedas, who have Arl Eamon's support, and the only true heir to Maric's throne.

If she supports herself and her father, her father gets to avoid justice (however that's construed)  and she gets to stay on the throne. Eamon, she might figure, can be brought into line once you and Alistair are dealt with--doubtful, but maybe. But even so, what about the rest of the bannorn? 

This is why I say it was a failure of judgment motivated by self-interest. It's not an entirely unreasonable one, on a personal level, but for the country, it is.

Would things have been different if Loghain and Anora had known? I don't know. If they had known, would they have believed? I'm not so certain. Loghain is obsessed with a supposed threat from Orlais, all evidence to the contrary. He was willing to divide his troops in order to send half to the border against a perceived invasion, with the bannorn rising against him and the darkspawn flooding over the land. I'm not so certain either of them would have listened to reason. It hasn't shown itself to be a winner up until this point in the game.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

BlackEmperor wrote...

I thought Anora had a solid base of support among commoners and nobility. Isn't that the argument she makes to you when she's trying to get your support in the Landsmeet? Are you saying she's completely powerless without her father? Or that she's simply unwilling to exercise that power against him?

They support her as their ruler, but they trust in Loghain to defend them in a time of war; the Queen rules England, but she doesn't command her armies.

Who's the tried and tested general and warrior? Not Anora. She's a good diplomat and can run the country, but until the Warden comes along with the treaties or people are willing to accept Orlesian aid, Loghain is the only one with the experience to protect Ferelden.

She wouldn't be completely powerless without Loghain and even he wants to keep her on the throne. He simply thinks he's better at running a war than she is, and he's right. Who would she replace him with? She gives control of all the armies to you if you make her queen, she doesn't assume command of them.

Could she have done something to reign in the civil war that's engulfing Fereldan? I have no idea. She doesn't appear to have any affect on it one way or the other, which means she's either unable or unwilling. It seems like she's only an effective ruler with people she can easily control, and that's not a strong endoresment for her to be Fereldan's ruler.

We don't know what she does behind the scenes. Perhaps you're right, perhaps you're not. But if you have no idea if there was anything she could do, perhaps there wasn't. Even rulers can be trapped.

Allow me to pose a hypothetical: [...]

As has been said, Anora might not know a GW is needed to defeat the archdemon, and she might believe there is no Blight. So as far as she's concerned, Ferelden will endure by its own strength of arms. She's wrong, but this does not mean if she knew all the facts she'd make the same decision.

In the end, you're the one willing to do what's necessary. And she isn't. That's why pc Cousland gets my vote over Anora.

Why just Couslands? Any Warden can do what's necessary, and they don't have to demand the crown either.

I admit being a little irked by so many people thinking their precious Princess Couslands are perfect and so much better than Anora. I don't think Anora is perfect, yes I think betrayal is a horrible thing, but I don't think she's as terrible a human being as people make out purely because she's going political on the asses of people who want to kick her off the throne so their boyfriend can take her place.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 15 octobre 2011 - 04:35 .

[tklivory]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I admit being a little irked by so many people thinking their precious Princess Couslands are perfect and so much better than Anora. I don't think Anora is perfect, yes I think betrayal is a horrible thing, but I don't think she's as terrible a human being as people make out purely because she's going political on the asses of people who want to kick her off the throne so their boyfriend can take her place.

In my case, it depends on my F!Cousland.  The one Cousland I RP'd as having grown up with Anora (they're both daughters of Teryns, after all) ended up making her Queen without hesitation and ran off with Alistair to be a Grey Warden.  The one I wrote about earlier in the thread (who had a breakdown) evaluated Anora completely based on the conversation she had with her in Arl Eamon's estate.  My political F!Cousland didn't hesitate to make herself Queen in a loveless marriage (so didn't put her boyfriend on the throne, since she actually had a girlfriend) and watched Anora go into the tower...*after* promising Anora her support in the Landsmeet.

I do think, however, that a lot of people like to play some characters as 'themselves'.  That might make the betrayal seem more personal?  I dunno.  Like I said, I like how Anora is written, and see how the writing could reflect a power-hungry b*tch, a concerned daughter, or a leader heeding bad advice.

[BlackEmperor]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Why just Couslands? Any Warden can do what's necessary, and they don't have to demand the crown either.

I admit being a little irked by so many people thinking their precious Princess Couslands are perfect and so much better than Anora. I don't think Anora is perfect, yes I think betrayal is a horrible thing, but I don't think she's as terrible a human being as people make out purely because she's going political on the asses of people who want to kick her off the throne so their boyfriend can take her place.

Lol, because only Couslands are up for the crown in this scenario. Without your pc Cousland, it's just a question of whether you support Alistair or Anora. As many others have pointed out, Alistair is untested material and I tend to agree with that assessment. But if it's an experienced pc Cousland and Alistair (package deal) versus Anora solo, the political calculus changes. Objectively speaking, getting Anora and Alistair together is one of the best, if not the best, political outcome. So I suppose the framing of this is--is pc Cousland + Alistair equivalent to Anora + Alistair, and is it a better outcome, overall, to exclude Anora? This is what begs the comparison between pc Cousland and Anora. If not, it's better for Fereldan (if not better for you the player) to fix him up with Anora, right?

So, as Addai and others have pointed out, it's not equivalent in the strictest of terms. Biologically, at the very least, since the taint in you and Alistair severely limits the possibility that you'll be able to reproduce (w/o magic, if Gaider is to be believed). Anora may have her own biological issues too, if the rumors are true, but we have no way of knowing whether or not Cailan was impotent or simply aloof from her (see: secret letter to empress of Orlais) but because of the prejudices of the world she was assumed to be barren. Darkspawn blood can also give you the crazies, which is not an ideal thing to have in a queen.

On the other points of knack for diplomacy, military leadership, tactical decision making...It's harder to discern who's the better candidate. That's where I'm trying to base my argument.

I do admit that I have a personal dislike for Anora rooted in me somewhere, so thinking of reasons why she shouldn't be queen comes rather easily to me. I'm not trying to argue that princess Cousland is *morally* superior. Certainly not the one I played. I did the Antivan assassin quests to get one annonymous noble's vote, so I was quite literally murdering my way into power. On top of all the other morally dubious things I had to do, like letting Vaughn out of his cage.

I'm also not arguing that Anora is morally inferior either. A lot about what she could or couldn't have done, how much she did or didn't know, or what she would have done had she better facts, is all--as you say--in the realm of speculation. It is quite possible that she had no other realistic options. If true, that would make her an epic tragic figure in this political drama that so quickly slips through her fingers.

That wouldn't be true of the Landsmeet though, when she has the power to act freely, for or against you. And this is where I'm saying she acts selfishly, and in spite of the facts she has, makes a poor judgment call. In my opinion, anyway.

And in my defense, I'm not reacting on an emotional level either. Being a male player, I don't really care if my "boyfriend" ends up on the throne or not. I think Alistair is a cool character, but my rage doesn't come from Alistair allegiance (Alistigence? Allegianstair?) 

[LT123]

BlackEmperor wrote...


Wait--so what happened to Alistair? Did you not set him up with Anora so he became a wandering drunk instead? And did you opt for the totally hardcore convo option of looking Loghain dead in the eye and saying, "No. You atone the hard way," before taking the killing blow against the Arch Demon?

I get the feeling that a lot of people RP-ed very nice fem Couslands. Mine I played like your DN. Maybe it was bcause I was a bard/assassin, maybe it was because I felt more personally wronged than I did in other origin stories (like the mage one), but I didn't have many moral quandries. With this character, I wish I had the option to execute Anora as well as Loghain at the Landsmeet. I also wish I had more of an opportunity to pummel the crap out of Arl Howe. Then again, this is also the character that slaughtered the Dalish, so none of this speaks well of her moral sensibilities.

From an RP pov, I think you can always find a justification for however you want to deal with Anora.

I laughed. And since my most recent playthrough is a "Let's spare Loghain for the sole purpose of getting to see drunk Alistair later" run, that's definitely going to happen with my Cousland.

Gah, Howe. Tim Curry did such a great job with him. I always want to punch him whenever he appears on my screen.

@BlackEmperor: No, no, no. You don't let Vaughan out of his cage. Instead, you trick him into giving you his strongbox key then walk away, leaving him in there indefinitely and nabbing his 40 sovereigns.

Modifié par LT123, 15 octobre 2011 - 05:51 .

[BlackEmperor]

LT123 wrote...

@BlackEmperor: No, no, no. You don't let Vaughan out of his cage. Instead, you trick him into giving you his strongbox key then walk away, leaving him in there indefinitely and nabbing his 40 sovereigns.

I would've liked to have done that! But I needed his vote to win the Landsmeet without Anora--and without it going all fisticuffs. I wish I could've gotten it in writing.
Vaughan: "Here's your forty soverigns and IOU for one Landsmeet vote."
Me: "And here's my shanking knife!" *shank*

Next time, when I play one of the million other scenarios where you don't care that Anora is queen.

tklivory wrote...

I do think, however, that a lot of people like to play some characters as 'themselves'.  That might make the betrayal seem more personal?  I dunno.  Like I said, I like how Anora is written, and see how the writing could reflect a power-hungry b*tch, a concerned daughter, or a leader heeding bad advice.

I have a habit of playing characters that are nothing like me--heartless mercenaries and murderous lunatics, mostly. My first playthrough I turned unbearably chantry good, and only because of my affection for Leliana.

I do think that as a Human Noble it's more personal than some other origin stories. My first character was a human male mage. So yeah, Loghain betrayed me and the other wardens, but I was never a candidate for the throne, Alistair was a bro I just happened to be traveling with, Arl Howe was just some random jerk, the slave trade in the Alienage didn't really concern me, and putting Anora on the throne was one more hoop I had to jump through before getting on with the business of stopping the Blight. I don't know if this makes sense as a sentence, but I was pretty Sten about the whole thing.

My second playthrough was a city elf, and that's when things started getting under my skin. Because then Loghain was responsible for selling my (formerly) betrothed, so when Anora launched into her whole, "My father was a good man once" shtick, I was thinking, "Lady, if he's got any good in him, then I'm the Queen of Antiva City. Try not to wear a dress that isn't washable on the day of the Landsmeet."

[ninja edit for grammar]

Modifié par BlackEmperor, 15 octobre 2011 - 06:50 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

BlackEmperor wrote...
Lol, because only Couslands are up for the crown in this scenario. Without your pc Cousland, it's just a question of whether you support Alistair or Anora.

Well, what I meant was, why not Chancellor? If Couslands are so determined to do what's necessary, they should *not* marry Alistair because by virtue of their Grey Warden blood they will never produce an heir with each other. They (and any other Warden) could support him without marrying him, and help him find a suitable bride to hopefully secure Fereldan's future.

I am not saying being queen is bad, but Cousland doesn't have to become one to provide strong support for Alistair as a king.

Edit: (was in a hurry just before)

And in my defense, I'm not reacting on an emotional level either. Being a male player, I don't really care if my "boyfriend" ends up on the throne or not. I think Alistair is a cool character, but my rage doesn't
come from Alistair allegiance (Alistigence? Allegianstair?) 

Ahh, good. Perhaps I am just jaded against the apparent multitude of female players getting genuinely upset at how dare Alistair be treated that way and Fairytale princess wedding = what's best for Ferelden XD Anora not being a lovable character and willing to act in her own interests seems to make a lot of players feel justified, if not righteous, at dethroning her.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 15 octobre 2011 - 08:25 .

[BlackEmperor]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Well, what I meant was, why not Chancellor? If Couslands are so determined to do what's necessary, they should *not* marry Alistair because by virtue of their Grey Warden blood they will never produce an heir with each other. They (and any other Warden) could support him without marrying him, and help him find a suitable bride to hopefully secure Fereldan's future.

I am not saying being queen is bad, but Cousland doesn't have to become one to provide strong support for Alistair as a king.

Wait, so if we're still looking for a suitable bride afterward for Alistair, you mean put him up as solo king with you as chancellor?

Hmm... It's an option. I don't know enough about the nobility of Fereldan (if the novels go into it or not, haven't read them) to know whether there are other suitable brides--or ones that are more suitable than either you or Anora at least. I guess the question is--would it be worth the risk of a divided Landsmeet to put Alistair up as a sole candidate? Since the chancellor thing is something that you don't decide until later, from an RP-perspective, you might have to be the one to take the killing blow against the archdemon so he can remain king. But then from an RP-perspective you don't know that a warden has to die to slay the archdemon yet, so I guess that doesn't enter your thoughts at all.

Could there be a better candidate for Queen then either you or Anora? I'm not so certain. For all her flaws as a human being, Anora is still formidable in many ways, and having her support then and there is unquestionably useful. Potentially critically so. If, as fem Cousland, I wasn't going to marry Alistair, I'd want him to marry Anora.

Assuming I want the outcome that (I think) is best for Fereldan. If I want the outcome that's best for me personally (whoever I am, whatever the origin), I might prefer solo Alistair, unhardened, and me as chancellor, so I can more easily control him.

[BlackEmperor]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

And in my defense, I'm not reacting on an emotional level either. Being a male player, I don't really care if my "boyfriend" ends up on the throne or not. I think Alistair is a cool character, but my rage doesn't
come from Alistair allegiance (Alistigence? Allegianstair?) 

Ahh, good. Perhaps I am just jaded against the apparent multitude of female players getting genuinely upset at how dare Alistair be treated that way and Fairytale princess wedding = what's best for Ferelden XD Anora not being a lovable character and willing to act in her own interests seems to make a lot of players feel justified, if not righteous, at dethroning her.

Is it bad that I was slightly bemused at the thought of you reading through all this and thinking, "Andraste's ass, not another one of these types... "? :innocent:

Yeah, this current pic just happens to be the character (who was a fem Cousland) from my most recent (3rd) playthrough. And, I have to say, the playthrough I enjoyed the most so far. When I get another that I like better, I'll change it.

I don't think I feel self-righteous about dethroning her--which only happened on this most recent playthrough. I did feel a small sense of glee about it, only because she acts like it's inevitable that I'm going to put her on the throne. As if she knew how all my other playthroughs turned out and she's just waiting for me to get around to it, hers for the taking. And as if she *knows* what a pain it is to have to line up all the votes and arguments it takes to win without her support.

Smug self-satisfaction might be a good descriptor of what I felt.

[tmp7704]

Mike Smith wrote...

It's mentioned as one of the rumors that you get from the dwarven merchants-Anora does proclaim her father the Regent after Cailan's death. How reliable the dwarven rumors are, IDK. They also say Anora is barren, which may or may not be true.

Well, you get rumours in the Witch Hunt that the player's character been screwing nugs at the Pearl, so take that as indication of how reliable these things can be ;s

[Wulfram]

BlackEmperor wrote...

My second playthrough was a city elf, and that's when things started getting under my skin. Because then Loghain was responsible for selling my (formerly) betrothed, so when Anora launched into her whole, "My father was a good man once" shtick, I was thinking, "Lady, if he's got any good in him, then I'm the Queen of Antiva City. Try not to wear a dress that isn't washable on the day of the Landsmeet."

[ninja edit for grammar]

For a City Elf, I have to imagine Anora's self congratulatory assessment of her own abilities as a ruler comes off as a bit hollow.

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

For a City Elf, I have to imagine Anora's self congratulatory assessment of her own abilities as a ruler comes off as a bit hollow.

Well, the Denerim elves don't seem to suffer from overcrowding like their brethren to the west, and there doesn't seem to be roving gangs of murderers and blood mages in their quarters every night. So they are relatively better off (as much as being a city elf allows, anyway)

The CE codex entry appears to reflect that -- it acknowledges hardships but is quite optimistic, with focus on the bright side and with attitude towards humans that "they don't realize how good they have" rather than emo "sucks to be us, woe woe woe".

But yeah, Loghain is as good as dead after his slaver deal.

Modifié par tmp7704, 15 octobre 2011 - 02:11 .

[tklivory]

tmp7704 wrote...

But yeah, Loghain is as good as dead after his slaver deal.

For a character of CE origin?  Yeah.  To RP letting Loghain live after that would only work if you were playing a sadistic bastard or something.

As to Anora: I admit that sometimes I find it a little disturbing how she so quickly dismisses any mistakes of her father's Regency as a 'well, Howe did that, really'.  Maybe because it detracts from the depth of her character (i.e., reinforces the 'daddy's little girl' cliche too much)? Or could it be viewed as a manipulative move on her part to make the PC relent on wanting to kill Loghain? (actually, that does feed into the 'daddy's little girl' cliche.  Hmmmm...)

[BlackEmperor]

tmp7704 wrote...

Well, you get rumours in the Witch Hunt that the player's character been screwing nugs at the Pearl, so take that as indication of how reliable these things can be ;s

*cough* Yeah, no, that totally didn't happen with my character at all. I don't know what those two were talking about...

You know how you have the option to tell Sanga, "Surprise me"? Yeah, well. I was surprised all right.

tklivory wrote...

For
a character of CE origin?  Yeah.  To RP letting Loghain live after that
would only work if you were playing a sadistic bastard or something.

Oy... I'm digging a deeper hole for myself with each and every post. Because while I was thinking that at the time, I did end up sparing him on that playthrough with the idea that I'd rather have him die against the archdemon. Hey, at least I didn't let Vaughan live in my origin story.

The slave trade deal was all Loghain, and if you bring it up in the Landsmeet he shows zero remorse for it. Anora's blind spot for her father is a mile wide. The fact you can assure her the throne and still have her betray you at the Landsmeet if you insist that Loghain must face justice for his crimes only further underscores that.

I know she would never want to see him killed, but what constitutes "justice" is not elaborated on when you state that. You could have meant a formal trial. Or you could have meant something of equal punishment, like being forced to become a grey warden (yeah, odds are what you had in mind all along was killing him, but--just saying). The fact that even the thought of that is enough to turn her against you... Freud would probably have a field day with her.

[tklivory]

BlackEmperor wrote...

Oy... I'm digging a deeper hole for myself with each and every post. Because while I was thinking that at the time, I did end up sparing him on that playthrough with the idea that I'd rather have him die against the archdemon. Hey, at least I didn't let Vaughan live in my origin story.

Unfortunately (for me, at any rate) I couldn't do that since it would be a meta-gaming decision, not an RP decision and I try really hard to avoid meta-gaming (though I'm sure I succumb without meaning to...).  In other words, at that point, your PC doesn't *know* that the Warden who kills the Archdemon must die.  He only has Alistair's and Duncan's word (and tradition) that a Grey Warden has to be there, and no idea why they have to be there.  So if a CE wanted Loghain to die for his crimes against the Alienage, then (from an RP perspective), the only way to guarantee revenge/justice/whatever is to kill Loghain during the Landsmeet.

So that was the point of my other post, that it would be difficult to justify from a RP perspective.

edit for a futher point:  also, we're talking CE here.  Someone who has basically spent their entire life living seeing the reality of 'one rule of law for humans, a different one for elves'.  If I were a CE, and wanted to see justice 'done' to Loghain, I don't see any other way to guarantee that justice than to kill Loghain, since no CE would (I would think) have any faith that the human rule of law would actually punish Loghain sufficiently for his actions against the alienage.  After all, in the minds of most of the people involved in the rule of law, elves are property at best, vermin at worst.

So yeah, as a CE, just couldn't find an RP reason to avoid Loghain's death.  I never do CE if I want to spare Loghain.

Modifié par tklivory, 15 octobre 2011 - 08:46 .

[tmp7704]

BlackEmperor wrote...

*cough* Yeah, no, that totally didn't happen with my character at all. I don't know what those two were talking about...

You know how you have the option to tell Sanga, "Surprise me"? Yeah, well. I was surprised all right.

lol. Yeah, but you'll get that rumour even for characters who really never perused the Pearl at all

[BlackEmperor]

tklivory wrote...

Unfortunately (for me, at any rate) I couldn't do that since it would be a meta-gaming decision, not an RP decision and I try really hard to avoid meta-gaming (though I'm sure I succumb without meaning to...).  In other words, at that point, your PC doesn't *know* that the Warden who kills the Archdemon must die.  He only has Alistair's and Duncan's word (and tradition) that a Grey Warden has to be there, and no idea why they have to be there.  So if a CE wanted Loghain to die for his crimes against the Alienage, then (from an RP perspective), the only way to guarantee revenge/justice/whatever is to kill Loghain during the Landsmeet.

So that was the point of my other post, that it would be difficult to justify from a RP perspective.

edit for a futher point:  also, we're talking CE here.  Someone who has basically spent their entire life living seeing the reality of 'one rule of law for humans, a different one for elves'.  If I were a CE, and wanted to see justice 'done' to Loghain, I don't see any other way to guarantee that justice than to kill Loghain, since no CE would (I would think) have any faith that the human rule of law would actually punish Loghain sufficiently for his actions against the alienage.  After all, in the minds of most of the people involved in the rule of law, elves are property at best, vermin at worst.

So yeah, as a CE, just couldn't find an RP reason to avoid Loghain's death.  I never do CE if I want to spare Loghain.

Lol, no, I get what you mean from an RP perspective. My city elf *was* a sadistic bastard though, through and through. Sided with the Templars, Anvil of the Void, corrupt the ashes (then kill Kolgrim anyway), the whole bit. Sparing Loghain wasn't an act of mercy--it was an act of pragmatism to bring him into the fold. And a chance to torment him as a traveling companion. (Two for one!) I had meta reasons too of course. I had never recruited Loghain before and wanted to see what he was like once he joined your party. This was also the playthrough that I was tormenting Alistair just for giggles and didn't mind losing him to the executioner's block.

At any rate I wasn't demanding from Anora that he face justice, so that wasn't an issue. You're right that what justice means to you at the time that would say so varies a lot based upon the character, although Anora never thinks any which way about it, since her decision is always the same if you make that demand.

I think whether sparing Loghain is an act of mercy with a chance for redemption or an act of spite depends on the character as well. I agree that CE is the least likely to make such considerations, however. Mine was an oddball, no question. Didn't much care for that playthrough, truth be told. Left an odd taste in my mouth.

[BlackEmperor]

tmp7704 wrote...

BlackEmperor wrote...

*cough* Yeah, no, that totally didn't happen with my character at all. I don't know what those two were talking about...

You know how you have the option to tell Sanga, "Surprise me"? Yeah, well. I was surprised all right.

lol. Yeah, but you'll get that rumour even for characters who really never perused the Pearl at all

I assumed afterward. At the time though I was thinking, "That is a disturbingly accurate rumor that's going around about me."

[tklivory]

BlackEmperor wrote...
Lol, no, I get what you mean from an RP perspective. My city elf *was* a sadistic bastard though, through and through.

Oh, well, that's all right then.  Carry on!

[Wulfram]

My CE did in fact spare Loghain.

Partly because she was the opposite of a sadistic bastard - she was naturally inclined to be merciful, and killing someone in cold blood would be a big thing for her. And bloody Riordan had to go on long enough for it to seem like cold blood

Also, she was more than a bit freaked out by the idea that she was supposed to be leading this army, so the remarks about Loghain's expertise as a general were relevant. She wanted Fereldan to unite again, which showing mercy to Loghain and crowning his daughter seemed to help. And she wanted to be a proper grey warden, putting aside personal feelings

It was a decision she was never comfortable with, and she tends to find suggestions that Loghain redeemed himself with his death highly insulting, but it was the decision she made and she has to live with it.

From a metagaming point of view, if Loghain had died then neither the Dark Ritual or letting Alistair die in her place were at all in character and I wanted her to live.