486 réponses à ce sujet

[tklivory]

Wulfram wrote...

My CE did in fact spare Loghain.

Partly because she was the opposite of a sadistic bastard - she was naturally inclined to be merciful, and killing someone in cold blood would be a big thing for her. And bloody Riordan had to go on long enough for it to seem like cold blood

Also, she was more than a bit freaked out by the idea that she was supposed to be leading this army, so the remarks about Loghain's expertise as a general were relevant. She wanted Fereldan to unite again, which showing mercy to Loghain and crowning his daughter seemed to help. And she wanted to be a proper grey warden, putting aside personal feelings

It was a decision she was never comfortable with, and she tends to find suggestions that Loghain redeemed himself with his death highly insulting, but it was the decision she made and she has to live with it.

From a metagaming point of view, if Loghain had died then neither the Dark Ritual or letting Alistair die in her place were at all in character and I wanted her to live.

I'm curious, did you kill Vaughan?  Or was that not 'cold blood' so it fit in with her character?

(that's why i love the game - everyone RP's differently! )

[Wulfram]

She killed Vaughan. If he'd been willing to let Shianni and the others go, then she might have been willing to leave it at that, if only because of the risks of reprisal. But abandoning her friend to him? Taking money to do it? Never.

The only occasion she actually killed someone who had surrendered and was at her mercy was Caladrius. Offering to murder her father in a blood magic ritual really wasn't a very clever way of asking for mercy.

[moogie1963]

Has anyone heard the talk between Erlina and the cook in Arl of Denerim Estate?
When i heard that, my first thougt was Anora and Howe working together.
what is your opinion about this talk.

[tklivory]

moogie1963 wrote...

Has anyone heard the talk between Erlina and the cook in Arl of Denerim Estate?
When i heard that, my first thougt was Anora and Howe working together.
what is your opinion about this talk.

Huh, I've never seen that diaglogue.  *fires up the toolset"  I'ma go look, now.

Edit:
Is this the dialogue you're talking about?

Cook: Erlina, where have you been?  The housekeeper says you're wanted at the palace.
Erlina: I had errands to run for my lady.
Cook: Her Majesty's been quiet as a mouse all day.  And Teryn Howe says she's to take dinner in her room!  Is she well?
Erlina: She is...indisposed.  Not to worry.

Modifié par tklivory, 15 octobre 2011 - 11:28 .

[moogie1963]

@ tklivory Yes this is what i mean.What is your opinion about this.

[tklivory]

Since the in-game context is that your PC & Co are disguised guards with Erlina with them...

Hmmm...

I could see it going a couple of different ways:

1) Anora is being held against her will by Howe, but doesn't want anyone to know (makes her look weak, Howe told her not to let on, etc), so they keep up a polite facade that she is 'indisposed'. In this case, Anora is unwilling bait set by Howe to lure to his estate for a private ambush.

2) Anora is visiting Howe and staying of her own volition and sent Erlina to get the PC in a political scheme. In this case, she is using Howe and herself as a gambit and hopes that Howe and the PC will take care of each other, and then she can ally with whoever's left

3) Anora and Howe are scheming together to lure the PC to Howe's estate to kill them off in a controlled environment. Anora, in this case, would act as willing bait but in tandem with Howe to set up an ambush.

I can see the dialogue working in all three of the above situations, TBH. As I've mentioned earlier, I like Anora's character in this sense because she's written well enough that you can speculate several different motivations for her.

Personally, I'm inclined to go with #2 myself. A woman who is seeing herself being pushed into a corner when she is used to ruling the country for a few years wouldn't suddenly like to defer to anyone (Howe, Father, or the PC).

[BlackEmperor]

Cook: Erlina, where have you been?  The housekeeper says you're wanted at the palace.
Erlina: I had errands to run for my lady.
Cook: Her Majesty's been quiet as a mouse all day.  And Teryn Howe says she's to take dinner in her room!  Is she well?
Erlina: She is...indisposed.  Not to worry.

I think it's a hostage situation and there's no need to rile up the cook of all people. Regardless of motivations, it's in everyone's interest to keep it on the down-low.

Something about Anora working with Howe doesn't strike me as... plausible. But I'm thinking it over and I can't of anything that definitively says she isn't (or wasn't). It's in Howe's interest to get rid of the warden, whereas Anora thinks you might be useful. If she thinks you might be useful, luring you into the house of someone who's going to do the utmost to try to kill you is a bad idea.

[Zaxares]

greengoron89 wrote...

Becoming king as a Cousland is all well and good, but I think there are more compelling reasons to put unhardened Alistair on the throne by himself- especially if you choose to "continue serving the Crown."

You basically become the "secret" ruler of Ferelden, as Alistair would be far too weak a king to rule on his own. You will become to Alistair what Howe was to Loghain, pretty much - the one pulling the strings behind-the-scenes.

Not quite as grand as becoming king, but your rule would arguably be more absolute in this case.

That's EXACTLY what my Mage Warden does. Sure, he becomes the new First Enchanter and assumes final authority over the Fereldan Tower (the Templars can stay, but I'll make it pretty darn clear that they're here only at my indulgence), but King Alistair also spends time regularly consulting me for advice about ruling. Most of the time, I tell him to just follow Anora's lead (I had the pair marry, even though Alistair is still unhardened), but once in a while, I counsel him differently if I disagree with what Anora's doing.

And if soft diplomacy fails, and backroom dealing also fails... Well, then it's time for me to pay a visit to Denerim and use a little "Blood Magic diplomacy" on the royal couple. *evil grin*

[maxernst]

BlackEmperor wrote...

Cook: Erlina, where have you been?  The housekeeper says you're wanted at the palace.
Erlina: I had errands to run for my lady.
Cook: Her Majesty's been quiet as a mouse all day.  And Teryn Howe says she's to take dinner in her room!  Is she well?
Erlina: She is...indisposed.  Not to worry.

I think it's a hostage situation and there's no need to rile up the cook of all people. Regardless of motivations, it's in everyone's interest to keep it on the down-low.

Something about Anora working with Howe doesn't strike me as... plausible. But I'm thinking it over and I can't of anything that definitively says she isn't (or wasn't). It's in Howe's interest to get rid of the warden, whereas Anora thinks you might be useful. If she thinks you might be useful, luring you into the house of someone who's going to do the utmost to try to kill you is a bad idea.

The problem I have always had with the Howe/Anora working together theory is that he doesn't appear to have readied a proper ambush in the dungeon for you.  You can come down and pick off his guards in small groups without the others becoming aware and the ones from upstairs don't come back down, or even interfere with you leaving the place.  I just don't see Howe putting his life on the line for one of Anora's schemes with so little preparation.

My personal theory is that Anora goes to Howe's estate freely in a scheme to get his support because she's tired of being a figurehead while her father makes all the decisions.  However, he uses the force shield to hold her while he decides how best to take advantage of the father/daughter schism or maybe just to hold her until Loghain decides how how to handle the situation.  In this scenario, Cauthrien might have been called in after spies watching the Eamon estate reported that you had gone to Howe's.  Alternatively, maybe after Anora is trapped, she plans to have Cauthrien capture the player after he's eliminated Howe, so that she can either eliminate both the player and Howe or gambling that she can use the player as a hostage to get support from Eamon's camp by arranging a rescue.

[tklivory]

maxernst wrote...

The problem I have always had with the Howe/Anora working together theory is that he doesn't appear to have readied a proper ambush in the dungeon for you.  You can come down and pick off his guards in small groups without the others becoming aware and the ones from upstairs don't come back down, or even interfere with you leaving the place.

That's how I feel about the final battle, actually.  Why would the Archdemon not just let the darkspawn fodder roll over Denerim?  What is the purpose of him exposing himself during the battle?  Granted, he's not a human general, but he's not a mindless beast, either.

Ahhh, game mechanics... they can get in the way of a good ol' motivation explanation.

[BlackEmperor]

maxernst wrote...

The problem I have always had with the Howe/Anora working together theory is that he doesn't appear to have readied a proper ambush in the dungeon for you.  You can come down and pick off his guards in small groups without the others becoming aware and the ones from upstairs don't come back down, or even interfere with you leaving the place.  I just don't see Howe putting his life on the line for one of Anora's schemes with so little preparation.

My personal theory is that Anora goes to Howe's estate freely in a scheme to get his support because she's tired of being a figurehead while her father makes all the decisions.  However, he uses the force shield to hold her while he decides how best to take advantage of the father/daughter schism or maybe just to hold her until Loghain decides how how to handle the situation.  In this scenario, Cauthrien might have been called in after spies watching the Eamon estate reported that you had gone to Howe's.  Alternatively, maybe after Anora is trapped, she plans to have Cauthrien capture the player after he's eliminated Howe, so that she can either eliminate both the player and Howe or gambling that she can use the player as a hostage to get support from Eamon's camp by arranging a rescue.

I was just thinking about Howe's ambush. I'm not a fan of disguises so I usually slaughter every guard in the house, but maybe he was thinking that you wouldn't be able to make it past a mansion's worth of guards in disguise, and that if they found you out you'd be quickly dispatched. When that doesn't work he retreats with his best troops and mages to the dungeon bunker. How he knows you're there if you're not found out and why he doesn't call in a mansion's worth of guards, I cannot say. He's definitely not surprised when you show up. it's clear that he's been waiting for you. Over-confident? Like every other villain pretty much ever.

For that matter, how does Ser Cauthrien instantly know that you killed Howe in that dungeon? She and her elite squad have the fastest police response time in medieval fantasy history. Even if spies recognized you go in to Howe's estate, how does she immediately know that Howe is dead? I didn't see anyone else go down or come up from that dungeon.

How does Anora plan to have Cauthrien capture the player while she's being held hostage? If she was doing just that, why doesn't Cauthrien charge you with kidnapping the queen while also charging you for killing Howe? And how does that help Anora? Having both the player and Howe eliminated puts her back at square one as far as dealing with her father, which is (we're lead to believe) the entire reason why she went to Howe in the first place. And if her goal is to wrangle concessions out of Eamon, she does a lousy job of it. Neither her nor Eamon make any mention of any arrangements made between them in exchange for rescuing you. Not to mention that getting support because you helped rescue people whose entire reason for being captured in the first place was because of you doesn't sound an idea that would go over well.

[BlackEmperor]

tklivory wrote...

That's how I feel about the final battle, actually.  Why would the Archdemon not just let the darkspawn fodder roll over Denerim?  What is the purpose of him exposing himself during the battle?  Granted, he's not a human general, but he's not a mindless beast, either.

Could be a limitation of his the archdemon's ability to influence the horde. Perhaps being closer to them allows for more direct control, and for something more sophisticated like the siege of a major city, he needs to be closer.

He's probably confident of his success as well. Resistance in Fereldan up until this point has been sparse. Also, he's a giant dragon who can fly and blast people with a breath weapon that does spirit damage. What does he have to fear? What are the odds, really, that someone is going to jump on his back and slice one of his wings in half...

If the archdemon really is an old god twisted with malice and rage, perhaps he just enjoys destroying cities. I would if I were an archdemon

[Wulfram]

tklivory wrote...

That's how I feel about the final battle, actually.  Why would the Archdemon not just let the darkspawn fodder roll over Denerim?  What is the purpose of him exposing himself during the battle?  Granted, he's not a human general, but he's not a mindless beast, either.

There are only 3 wardens in the Kingdom, Archie thinks this is a good chance to finish them, and Fereldan, off once and for all.

edit: If you sided with the Werewolves then at Castle Redcliffe the Lady of the Forest says

And there is one amongst them, a mighty dragon who flies at the center of this horde.  It is he you seek, yes?  Like an arrow flying towards its target

He knows you come, Grey Warden.  He bellows his challenge at you even now, daring you to approach.  Daring all of us

His intention was probably to stay in the air, since this way he'd be pretty safe and if things got hairy he could just scarper.  Then this crazy idiot Riordan jumps on his back and cripples one of his wings, stopping him from flying very far.  That's probably when he starts to worry - but even then, one Warden down, two to go.

Modifié par Wulfram, 16 octobre 2011 - 11:13 .

[tklivory]

Wulfram wrote...

There are only 3 wardens in the Kingdom, Archie thinks this is a good chance to finish them, and Fereldan, off once and for all.

His intention was probably to stay in the air, since this way he'd be pretty safe and if things got hairy he could just scarper.  Then this crazy idiot Riordan jumps on his back and cripples one of his wings, stopping him from flying very far.  That's probably when he starts to worry - but even then, one Warden down, two to go.

*loving the fun of analyzing Archie's motivations, btw*

Yes, but does Archie know that there's only 3 Wardens left?  Wardens can sense darkspawn, but it also runs vice versa.  If the Trenches were any indication, he probably can't exactly pinpoint their location in a crowd of darkspawn.  In that case, I'd just send all my darkspawnage into a destroying rampage and only get close if nothing is moving.

Suppose Archie can sense the Wardens directly?  If I were the General of an army and knew that only 3 people of the opposing army could actually kill me, I would send my troops to eradicate those 3 no matter the losses and only then make my approach and burn buildings, loot the women, eat the houses, etc.

As for staying in the air, well, why did he get anywhere close to jumping distance of a building?
Or is poor Archie slow on the uptake and think he had to defend himself against Griffons?

And Riordan was definitely crazy... like a fox!  (heh, sorry couldn't resist, yes bad pun, sorry)

EDIT: didn't know about that dialogue with the Lady of the Forest.  Interesting.

Anyway, I know why they did it.  I just found it a wee bit contrived in the game (kinda like we 'have' to rouse Arl Eamon.  Screw Eamon!  Give me the Teaganmeister, rally Redcliffe's forces, and march to Denerim already, dangit!)

Modifié par tklivory, 16 octobre 2011 - 11:30 .

[Addai]

moogie1963 wrote...

@ tklivory Yes this is what i mean.What is your opinion about this.

For once I actually believe Anora told the unvarnished truth about this.  She went to Howe out of desperation to find some lever against her father, and Howe decided to turn the tables and use her as a lever.  Only he has a slightly different conception of "using" than she did.

In my ff story, I had it that Howe wanted to force her to marry him, after having given up on getting her to marry Nathaniel.  My theory is that by this time, Loghain has given him so much rope that he's getting frenzied with ambition and thinks he can't lose and might as well shoot for the moon- the rule of Ferelden.  So he overplays his hand.

[moogie1963]

The question is why Anora only goes with Erlina to Arl Howe without any guards.(and Cautrien knows exactly where you are) A king would let people come to him and go nowhere without guards. And why can Erlina run around free? Not even Howe would be that dumb anyway, why should howe risk his good relationship with Loghain with taking his daughter hostage? Howe says himself that destiny brought him to the ear of a king( he can also mean Anora with that ) and after the Landsmeet Anora declines to give up all her rights on the throne ,if she is really concernd about Ferelden she should act in the best interest of the country and not wanting power

[BlackEmperor]

moogie1963 wrote...

The question is why Anora only goes with Erlina to Arl Howe without any guards.(and Cautrien knows exactly where you are) A king would let people come to him and go nowhere without guards. And why can Erlina run around free? Not even Howe would be that dumb anyway, why should howe risk his good relationship with Loghain with taking his daughter hostage? Howe says himself that destiny brought him to the ear of a king( he can also mean Anora with that ) and after the Landsmeet Anora declines to give up all her rights on the throne ,if she is really concernd about Ferelden she should act in the best interest of the country and not wanting power

An armed escort would also attract attention, something that Anora doesn't want if she's trying to secretly solicit help from Howe in dealing with her father. Since her father is commander of the army, finding soldiers she could trust wouldn't be easy. If she was being stealthy under the cover of darkness, it'd make sense that she'd only bring Erlina. It doesn't make her decision to go to Howe any less of a horrible idea, but the logistics of that are logical.

We also don't know the exact circumstances of her capture. Since she's still free, Erlina probably wasn't right next to her when Anora was captured. They might have arranged to meet somewhere secret, and Anora had Erlina wait out of sight in case something went wrong. Or any variation thereof. I don't remember what Erlina tells you and Eamon about her capture.

I still don't understand Cauthrien's ninja skills. As soon as Howe is dying she basically senses a disturbance in the Force and rounds up a swat team.

I also don't understand Howe's motives for capturing her, but then we don't know at all what was said in her meeting with Howe. Maybe she had some card up her sleeve that threatened Howe's hold on power, and, in a panic, takes her captive while he tries to figure out what his next move should be. Maybe that's when he conceives of killing her and pinning it on the warden. I can only wonder.

Modifié par BlackEmperor, 16 octobre 2011 - 10:30 .

[tklivory]

BlackEmperor wrote...

I still don't understand Cauthrien's ninja skills. As soon as Howe is dying she basically senses a disturbance in the Force and rounds up a swat team.

I also don't understand Howe's motives for capturing her, but then we don't know at all what was said in her meeting with Howe. Maybe she had some card up her sleeve that threatened Howe's hold on power, and, in a panic, takes her captive while he tries to figure out what his next move should be. Maybe that's when he conceives of killing her and pinning it on the warden. I can only wonder.

Yeah, I never got it either.  You go directly from the dungeon to Anora's room, and there's Cauthrien all, "I've been sent to arrest you for Howe's murder."    It has to be either ninja or crystal ball time.

As for Howe's motiviation, I guess I always worked under the assumption that she went to see him of her own volition, and he took advantage of it and kept her squirreled away - perhaps to wring concessions out of her, perhaps just to keep her out the public eye.  If nothing else, Howe would definitely see her as a rival, especially since her father as Regent is now the center of power in Fereldan.

Also, I don't recall any evidence that actually points to him actively using her as bait for the Warden, though the events in the game can easily be interpreted that.  Am I just forgetting something here?  Is there some dialogue or something that comes right out and says this?  I know before you go to Howe's estate, you can tell Eamon you think it's a trap, but is there any confirmation that it actually is one?

[BlackEmperor]

tklivory wrote...

Also, I don't recall any evidence that actually points to him actively using her as bait for the Warden, though the events in the game can easily be interpreted that.  Am I just forgetting something here?  Is there some dialogue or something that comes right out and says this?  I know before you go to Howe's estate, you can tell Eamon you think it's a trap, but is there any confirmation that it actually is one?

Okay, about Howe's motivation: it's clear that Eamon calls the Landsmeet to unite the country. If he understands that the wardens are out to remove Loghain from the picture, one way or another, it means he's losing a significant amount of clout. Every indication is that he's Loghain's flunky, not Anora. Knowing that the warden will seek out Anora's aid in this, he locks her up so she won't be a factor--at the very least, until after the Landsmeet is over.

The evidence suggests that because the ambush is so lousy that it's unlikely he's using her as bait. If he was, he'd be better prepared. But if we're assuming that he knows that the warden will seek out Anora's help, he must know that the warden will attempt a rescue mission. It'd make sense to hold her in his estate, where he can fight the warden on his terms. He just bungles it so badly that it doesn't seem plausible. My only theory to that is that he's simply over confident, but that sounds like a lame explanation on the face of it.

[tklivory]

BlackEmperor wrote...

Okay, about Howe's motivation: it's clear that Eamon calls the Landsmeet to unite the country. If he understands that the wardens are out to remove Loghain from the picture, one way or another, it means he's losing a significant amount of clout. Every indication is that he's Loghain's flunky, not Anora. Knowing that the warden will seek out Anora's aid in this, he locks her up so she won't be a factor--at the very least, until after the Landsmeet is over.

The evidence suggests that because the ambush is so lousy that it's unlikely he's using her as bait. If he was, he'd be better prepared. But if we're assuming that he knows that the warden will seek out Anora's help, he must know that the warden will attempt a rescue mission. It'd make sense to hold her in his estate, where he can fight the warden on his terms. He just bungles it so badly that it doesn't seem plausible. My only theory to that is that he's simply over confident, but that sounds like a lame explanation on the face of it.

Yeah, particularly since he planned the coup at Highever so well.  I mean, it took the intervention of a Grey Warden to save anybody from that mess.  Maybe he just didn't enough time?  Over complacency is a good assumption, too.

[Addai]

Cauthrien's appearance makes sense since you have to kill some guards even before you get into the estate, and by then Anora is missing, so there was time for word to get back to Cauthrien by the time you get in and kill Howe. How she knows that he's actually dead- I guess she infers that when she sees who it is. At that point she still thinks Howe is Loghain's ally and the Warden is their arch-enemy.

I imagine Anora did not want to attract attention, yes, and Erlina must not have been with her when she was imprisoned. It would be easy to overlook an elven servant, especially as you hear Howe is having trouble keeping help and servants and guards are changing a lot.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 octobre 2011 - 12:29 .

[Mike3207]

If you try and leave through the door after you kill Howe but before you rescue the Queen, it will be locked. This leads me to believe Anora has nothing to do with Ser Cauthrien appearing after you rescue her. The guards know what have you done, and have sent for Cauthrien.

[moogie1963]

When Erlina was not with Anora makes the conversation between the cook and Erlina no sense.

[tmp7704]

BlackEmperor wrote...

I still don't understand Cauthrien's ninja skills. As soon as Howe is dying she basically senses a disturbance in the Force and rounds up a swat team.

You cut through entire dungeon of the mansion of Arl of Denerim before you get to Howe (optionally through the upper floor first, as well)  It's really more surprising that Howe sticks around long enough for you to catch up with him, than Cauthrien being able to react reasonably quick.

[Addai]

moogie1963 wrote...

When Erlina was not with Anora makes the conversation between the cook and Erlina no sense.

I mean not with her at the moment she was taken.  Obviously with the cook's discussion, Anora was there for at least some time.