486 réponses à ce sujet

[moogie1963]

Lets start from the beginning,you enter Denerim and will be greeted by Loghain and Howe.( if you say that Anora talk for herself then it will be ignored) shortly after that its Erlinas turn and tells the Queen was kidnapped,straight she has armor for you and knows when the change of guards is.Her explanations is that Howe always has new mens that why you don't attract any attention
You stroll aroundthe house but everyones ignoring you although you have 3 people with you (Dwarf,Qunari...)you arrive at a locked up Anora wich is behind a door locked by a mage whom himself is in the dungeon with Howe.
Anora tells you that she is under heavy guard.
Where are the guards? No one is around. Only Erlina tells you that the change is frequent, there are many soldiers witch were in Highever and the one in the backroom also knows that don't belong there although you are wearing a armor of the guards - meaning that the change can not be that frequent.
How would the Queen come to an armor when her room is locked and under costant watch?
How long can a Queen go missing before anyone notices? ( I guess that Loghain would search every little corner in Denerim  until he found her) according to the cook she must be there for long already( clearly because nobody knows when you arrive )  and if you surrender then Erlina says are you really sure.
All of that makes me think that this is all planned and arranged.

[BlackEmperor]

Maybe I've been thinking about this the wrong way. I've been trying to parse what Anora or Howe would get out of this. Maybe both Howe and Anora are bait for a trap--set by Loghain.

Consider this: Loghain knows the pc is the biggest obstacle to his plans. Every attempt he's made to get rid of the wardens once and for all has failed. By the time Eamon calls the Landsmeet, he knows he's in trouble. He needs something solid that he can use against the wardens. Something big that will give him the perfect excuse to lock you up in Fort Drakon for good.

Anora, feeling increasing isolated and powerless, sees the opportunities that the Landsmeet presents for herself. She secretly meets with Howe to that end. Howe acts interested but later, dutiful snake that he is, reports this secret meeting to Loghain.

That's when Loghain sees his chance. He instructs Howe to agree to another meeting with Anora and then take her hostage. Regardless of how you feel about Howe, he knows you'll want Anora's help. In any case, you can't afford to leave her in the hands of Howe. He's forcing your hand. Loghain tells Howe to keep her under lock and key while Loghain's spies watch Eamon's place. He tells Howe that he'll send word when the warden and his companions make their move to rescue her. When the pc does, however, he purposely doesn't. Having allowed Howe's estate to be infiltrated and taken unawares, he tells Ser Cauthrien to round up her shock troops and march to Howe's estate to arrest the warden for the murder of Arl Howe. Dutiful soldier that she is, she acts immediately without questioning the order, making sure the only exit is through her. Thus Loghain figures you will have to surrender and be imprisoned, or beaten to a pulp and then thrown in prison. Cauthrien only arrests you and Alistair if he's with you--none of your other companions, even though they're legit accomplices in the crime. It's purely political. Best of all, there's no blowback--Howe is dead and can't plot revenge, and Anora willingly believes it was all the perfidy of Howe and didn't have anything to do with her father.

This explains why Erlina is seemingly allowed to roam free, why there is no ambush at Howe's estate and yet why Howe is nonetheless unsurprised to encounter you, why the doors are locked if you kill Howe but try to leave without Anora, why Cauthrien makes her timely appearance, how Cauthrien somehow already knows of and charges you for Howe's death even though it happened minutes before, why Anora truly believes her life was in danger, and why, if you recruit him and question him about it, Loghain writes it off by saying that Anora always had a habit of being melodramatic. I always thought that was such a glib remark on his part, considering how crazy of a villain Howe is. But it's not glib if he knew he was acting under his orders and that she was never in serious danger at any point during the whole thing.

All the pieces fit.

Okay, not quite. It still doesn't explain why Anora has a full-on guard disguise when you finally get the door open for her. Maybe she's the one with the ninja skills.

[Addai]

I'm gonna say that Loghain would never put Anora in danger, not for any reason let alone Warden bait. He says this himself if he's spared- he wouldn't kill his daughter even if it could save Ferelden. I don't think he really trusts Howe, anyway. He just believes he can control him.

She can turn on him, but he never turns on her under any circumstances, and in fact I see his usurping her place as an overprotective desire to shield her from any consequences of Ostagar.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 octobre 2011 - 01:05 .

[Mike3207]

She disguised herself as a guard during the initial meeting with Howe. She didn't want anyone to know she was meeting with him.

I'm still sticking to my theory that the guards sent for Cauthrien.It fits since the door is locked after you kill Howe but before you rescue the Queen. I'm still wondering how Cauthrien gets in with the door locked however.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 18 octobre 2011 - 01:10 .

[BlackEmperor]

Mike Smith wrote...

She disguised herself as a guard during the initial meeting with Howe. She didn't want anyone to know she was meeting with him.

Boom. Done. Quandries solved. I'm taking "ninja Cauthrien" off my list of things that break immersion for me.

Updated to Add: the guards could've locked the door when you went in and given Cauthrien the key when she arrives. No biggie.

Modifié par BlackEmperor, 18 octobre 2011 - 01:37 .

[BlackEmperor]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm gonna say that Loghain would never put Anora in danger, not for any reason let alone Warden bait. He says this himself if he's spared- he wouldn't kill his daughter even if it could save Ferelden. I don't think he really trusts Howe, anyway. He just believes he can control him.

She can turn on him, but he never turns on her under any circumstances, and in fact I see his usurping her place as an overprotective desire to shield her from any consequences of Ostagar.

You have much greater faith in Loghain than I do. Besides, I don't think she is in danger in this scenario. The fact that he thinks he can control Howe makes it all the more likely that he would use Howe in this manner, and the fact that he doesn't really trust Howe means he wouldn't have any qualms about making him the fall guy for his plans.

I see his usurping her place as a power move that puts him in control. I think Alistair has it right when he says people like Loghain and Anora are the type that think they're the only ones that can fix things. So maybe he sees not letting her make any real decisions as a way of protecting her from making any bad ones. It's also why he'd set such a trap for the wardens in this manner. If he gets word that Anora is secretly meeting with Howe, maybe he thinks her mind is already being warped by the wardens' influence, making such a trap all the more necessary.

I don't really see it as him turning on her. If he can justify abandoning a king he was sworn to protect on the field of battle, I don't see him having problems making the leap to justifying having Howe lock up Anora as a means of saving her from herself.

[Mike3207]

How about this-Loghain hears a rumor that Howe is holding Anora prisoner. He sends Cauthrien to investigate, but Erlina meets her and tells her what is going on. She arranges with Cauthrien to enter the house to release Anora at a predetermined date. Erlina then meets with the Warden to do the same thing, but before Cauthrien is scheduled to arrive. Cauthrien finds out when she enters the house from the guards that the Warden has killed Howe. She decides to get rid of Loghain's chief competition the Warden, and also lets Anora go assuming she'll return to Loghain.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 18 octobre 2011 - 01:55 .

[Addai]

I think Loghain is genuinely surprised by Anora's betrayal at the LM and don't get any sense he knew she would go around his back to Howe. It's just my interpretation of events, though. We can only speculate.

[Wulfram]

The relationship between Loghain and Anora must have been pretty bad, considering Howe suggested killing her.

[Addai]

An idea that Loghain dismissed out of hand. Granted, he should have put a sword in Howe's throat for suggesting it.

[Mike3207]

My impression was that he was unaware of what had happened to Anora at Howe's mansion. He actually asks you what has happened to his daughter-he thinks she might have been killed. I've never seen why it was necessary to not tell Loghain Anora was alive before the Landsmeet-I think a handwritten letter that she was OK and staying with friends might have been better.

[BlackEmperor]

Not that Loghain would have believed you if you had written said note. And not that an opportunity really presents itself prior to the Landsmeet.

I also think Loghain is genuinely surprised if Anora turns against him at the Landsmeet. Again, going on my own speculation about this--it's one thing if your daughter feels estranged and secretly meets with someone behind your back. It's another thing entirely to be denounced in front of all the nobles of the Landsmeet that you're not the man you once were. It's dramatic and unexpected.

I have a hard time reading Loghain period, so I'm hesitant to take any of his reactions too strongly into any reading of what has or hasn't happened. He's very controlled about his demeanor, for the most part.

[tklivory]

Loghain, for me, has always been not so much an enigma as someone my characters can't relate to unless they were raised in power themselves (specifically, HN and DN).  I have trouble playing utterly pro-Chantry or highly altruistic characters who may be inclined to spare him out of morality or ethics, so generally I have spared him (in-game or in FF) for political reasons (my HN) or empathy (my DN).  (As I play more characters, I'll probably spare him again for other reasons, just those were the ones who have done it up until now)  I currently am playing a HNF who will not be able to kill him herself because she refuses to kill a parent in front of a child, but I don't know how Ali will react (don't know if i'll harden him yet).

Having said that, I remember the first time I saw Anora betray her father, and I felt a certain deflation in ST's (wonderful) voice acting when he said, "they've gotten to you".  It was very sad, and I did feel a twinge of guilt for helping the gulf between father and daughter widen.  And his quiet grace as he accepted his death made me warm to him (yeah, too late, i know).

Anora's betrayal of him, though, made me like her less, actually, and I made Alistair sole king in that game.  In subsequent playthroughs I saw more of Anora's character and the reasons why she might make a good ruler, but all I saw that first time was someone willing to throw her own father by the wayside for her own gain.  (and wallah!  back on topic! )

Although, now that i'm thinking through this, wouldn't it have been easy for Anora to arrange a note to be sent to her father (especially if she was planning on betraying the Warden) at least saying she was alive (if not where she was)?  She was clever, after all, she could have figured it out, and figured out how to work it to her advantage.  That part always did strike me as odd.  Like "Ta-da!  Here I yam!"

...
(you are not Zorro, i know you...  too obscure?)

Modifié par tklivory, 20 octobre 2011 - 06:01 .

[OmegaXI]

So am I to understand that there is no option to put Anora to sword like her father?

[theskymoves]

double-post removed

Modifié par theskymoves, 21 octobre 2011 - 01:51 .

[theskymoves]

OmegaXI wrote...

So am I to understand that there is no option to put Anora to sword like her father?

The worst you can do is imprison her.

edited to add that my husband just said, "No, the worst you can do is make her marry Alistair." Words will be had...

~tsm

Modifié par theskymoves, 20 octobre 2011 - 01:23 .

[Wulfram]

OmegaXI wrote...

So am I to understand that there is no option to put Anora to sword like her father?

There's an implication that Hardened Alistair might have her killed after the Blight.  But I wouldn't count on it, really.

[moogie1963]

I do not want make Anora Queen,because she only wants power.( she said so herself when you talk to her) To marry Alistair to Anora is the meanest thing you can do as a friend. He dispises her ( and said he would be reminded of what happend every day).
I will get Alistair to fight against Loghain anyway,i think thats his right ,not only about Duncan,his second father figure Eamon was poisoned,all his Grey Warden friends are dead and so is Cailan( he doesen't have a chance to get to know his brother anymore).
I can understand his " childish" behavior if i where in his place , i would be acting up evan more.( that would be something , the hero just taking off and telling everyone make it by yourself)
anyway, i think Loghain , Anora and Howe working together and that Cailans death in Ostagar was planed.
Howe might be able to talk his way out when it comes to the Couslands but not bringing his troups to Ostagar is treason. Is he punished for that ? Not evan from Fereldens greatest General or his Queen.Instead he gets rewarded.
so, he knows nothing will happen to him because Cailan is dead and he is close to the important people in Ferelden.

[BlackEmperor]

theskymoves wrote...
edited to add that my husband just said, "No, the worst you can do is make her marry Alistair." Words will be had...

~tsm

The worst you can do to Anora? Or the worst you can do to Alistair?... Or both?

[tklivory]

@ tsm - yes... words should definitely be had...  <_<

@ BlackEmperor - both, I would say.  Anora can't laugh at herself and Alistair can't help but laugh.  Plus, you know, all the *other things*

[Persephone]

moogie1963 wrote...

1)I do not want make Anora Queen,because she only wants power.( she said so herself when you talk to her)

2) To marry Alistair to Anora is the meanest thing you can do as a friend. He dispises her ( and said he would be reminded of what happend every day).

3) I will get Alistair to fight against Loghain anyway,i think thats his right ,not only about Duncan,his second father figure Eamon was poisoned,all his Grey Warden friends are dead and so is Cailan( he doesen't have a chance to get to know his brother anymore).

4) I can understand his " childish" behavior if i where in his place , i would be acting up evan more.( that would be something , the hero just taking off and telling everyone make it by yourself)

5) anyway, i think Loghain , Anora and Howe working together and that Cailans death in Ostagar was planed.

6)Howe might be able to talk his way out when it comes to the Couslands but not bringing his troups to Ostagar is treason. Is he punished for that ? Not evan from Fereldens greatest General or his Queen.Instead he gets rewarded.
7) so, he knows nothing will happen to him because Cailan is dead and he is close to the important people in Ferelden.

1) Um, no, she never says that.

2) Alistair does not despise Anora. And boo hoo, I usually put an entire nation's fate above friendship. No way in hell will I let Alistair rule this country. He has no training, no experience, nothing that suggests he'd be the ruler a troubled nation needs. So he either marries a gorgeous queen with a good head on her shoulders or stays a Warden. Blood lines do not make you competent. At all.

3) You haven't read "The Calling", have you? Alistair never knew Duncan at all. (Reading that book is an eye opener) Eamon, a man who neglected him, made him sleep with the hounds and abandoned him because his snake of a wife threw a fit...a father figure? Hell no. Cailan's death was indeed his own fault. He chose to fight with the vanguard and that's that.

4)  I have no sympathy for those who put personal revenge and bloodlust above what is best for their country. None. I never exile or kill Alistair, but I will not execute Loghain to make him stay around. No way. Besides, Riordan is behind the decision. Duncan would have recruited Loghain as well. Good enough for me.

5) No.

6) How about there already being a civil war once Howe returns to Denerim? Neither Loghain nor Anora can afford to antagonize Howe at that point. Fighting wars back to back is idiocy. Morals matter little in such a scenario.

7) Or he is a bloody twisted politician playing his cards well. Not everything is a conspiracy.

[Mike3207]

About Anora-she does say if you choose Alistair the civil war will continue. She says that if you kill Loghain and talk to both her and Alistair. I wouldn't blame Alistair if he did kill her after the Blight. I don't go down that road however. I spare Loghain, and tend to execute Alistair. He's simply unfit to be King at the time of the Landsmeet, and I think he would lose if it came to a vote. His conduct at the Landsmeet doesn't help his case. I really don't understand why you take a vote to remove Loghain, and not one to decide who takes the throne. I like the Warden, but it should not be up to one person to decide who takes the throne.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

I don't believe Anora is power hungry, she's just egotistical. Female Cousland is the one who come's across as power hungry when declaring herself Queen at the landsmeet.
I always make Anroa a sole ruler and keep Alistair as a Warden so he can live happily ever after with my Surana. It's a win win situation.

EDIT to add. Personally I think both Anora and Alistair are the wrong choice for the throne because neither of them will produce an heir, NO matter who they marry.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 21 octobre 2011 - 07:32 .

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Mike Smith wrote...

I like the Warden, but it should not be up to one person to decide who takes the throne.

I agree. In fact the Warden shouldn't have a say in who take's the throne at all. Warden's are not supposed to meddle in politic's.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


I admit being a little irked by so many people thinking their precious Princess Couslands are perfect and so much better than Anora.

This. I couldn't agree more. So glad I'm not the only one who feels this way:D

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 21 octobre 2011 - 07:45 .