481 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

moogie1963 wrote...
anyway, i think Loghain , Anora and Howe working together and that Cailans death in Ostagar was planed.
Howe might be able to talk his way out when it comes to the Couslands but not bringing his troups to Ostagar is treason. Is he punished for that ? Not evan from Fereldens greatest General or his Queen.Instead he gets rewarded.
so, he knows nothing will happen to him because Cailan is dead and he is close to the important people in Ferelden.

Don't know if this matters to you, but your idea is contradicted by statements David Gaider made in the forum saying that Howe acted on his own and Loghain had nothing to do with the Cousland massacre.  As for rewarding him afterward, Loghain does- Anora is sort of sidelined, so not her decision- but I see this as purely a pragmatic move.  He needs Howe's armies, which as you point out are pretty much intact.

[Addai]

Mike Smith wrote...

About Anora-she does say if you choose Alistair the civil war will continue. She says that if you kill Loghain and talk to both her and Alistair. I wouldn't blame Alistair if he did kill her after the Blight. I don't go down that road however. I spare Loghain, and tend to execute Alistair. He's simply unfit to be King at the time of the Landsmeet, and I think he would lose if it came to a vote. His conduct at the Landsmeet doesn't help his case. I really don't understand why you take a vote to remove Loghain, and not one to decide who takes the throne. I like the Warden, but it should not be up to one person to decide who takes the throne.

Being unfit to be king warrants execution?

[Mike3207]

Addai67 wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

About Anora-she does say if you choose Alistair the civil war will continue. She says that if you kill Loghain and talk to both her and Alistair. I wouldn't blame Alistair if he did kill her after the Blight. I don't go down that road however. I spare Loghain, and tend to execute Alistair. He's simply unfit to be King at the time of the Landsmeet, and I think he would lose if it came to a vote. His conduct at the Landsmeet doesn't help his case. I really don't understand why you take a vote to remove Loghain, and not one to decide who takes the throne. I like the Warden, but it should not be up to one person to decide who takes the throne.

Being unfit to be king warrants execution?

No, I probably put it wrong. I don't kill him because I consider him unfit to be king. I kill him because he's claimed the throne after the decision has been made to have Anora be the Queen. Eamon will find a way to use Alistair to ferment rebellion against Anora and my male Cousland if he lives. I will spare him if he turns down the throne, just as Anora will spare unhardened Alistair's life if he turns down the throne. Nothing really against Alistair, but the time to put yourself forward as King is before the decision is made.

[andrewmetroid8]

Anora is so desprate for power that she will do anything to get your support (seeing as you are the most powerful individual). She will even marry you or Alister (who she despises). I kinda like her though, her inner strength and fortitutde is impressive.

[tklivory]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

I like the Warden, but it should not be up to one person to decide who takes the throne.

I agree. In fact the Warden shouldn't have a say in who take's the throne at all. Warden's are not supposed to meddle in politic's.

*cough cough game mechanics forcing the player to make a key plot decision that really wouldn't happen in real life cough cough*

Whew, sorry, there had to clear my throat.

[BlackEmperor]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I agree. In fact the Warden shouldn't have a say in who take's the throne at all. Warden's are not supposed to meddle in politic's.

They're not, but of course they do. Sophia Dryden launched a rebellion against a Fereldan king that she believed was a tyrant. Riordan mentions that the wardens at Weisshaupt are constantly caught up in the politics of the Anderfels because the monarchy there is weak and the people look to the wardens for guidance.

While the situation the pc in Origins gets involved in goes against the ideals of the Grey Wardens, I think it accurately reflects the reality of the world they exist in.

If settling the political secession to the throne is the price of defeating the Blight, then so be it.

[naddaya]

She's afraid you will kill her father. She afraid to lose the power she's always had prior to Cailan's death, and Alistair does seem a weak candidate. I don't blame her for betraying you if you straight up tell her you don't support her.

[moogie1963]

@ Persephone
Are you aware of the fakt that conversations can change? Not only male,female,friendship or love,hate,cunning..... no, also whether you are Grey Warden or Cousland. And many more...
What Alistair must do or not,whether Anora is smart or gorgeous - everybody has his own opinion.
And how is The Calling an eyeopener?
Alistair doesn't know Duncan. How do you know that?
Duncan would recruited Loghain. How do you know that?
Riordan is not showing up when Alistair is fighting. Correct?
Cailans death - depends on how you see it,treason or not.

[moogie1963]

@ Addai
Do you have a Link or do you still know the thematik?
It's not that i don't belive you but we know that Mr. Gaider is good in hiding things.

[moogie1963]

@ Hanz
Thanks for the Link.I forgot about that.

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

ZOMG - Addai you changed your avatar. Thought I'd never see the day.

I like it!

I'm not playing any more so have to cycle between my old characters.  It's just nice to get a reminder that dwarf women exist in Thedas, eh? 

@moogie:
Here's the link to the massive Defense of Loghain Mac Tir thread.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 octobre 2011 - 09:47 .

[BlackEmperor]

m_k wrote...

She's afraid you will kill her father. She afraid to lose the power she's always had prior to Cailan's death, and Alistair does seem a weak candidate. I don't blame her for betraying you if you straight up tell her you don't support her.

What about if she betrays you for supporting her but still firmly stating that her father needs to face justice?

[ShadowLordXII]

I just found this tread so I'm reposting a thought I had while thinking about everyone's favorite traitor Loghain:

While thinking about Loghain, I just realized something about all of the horrible things he's done/allowed to happen.

Anora never stopped him!

A whole year goes by in Dragon Age and while Ferelden tears itself apart in a civil war, Anora never once stands up to her father or Howe.  As the ruling queen, she should have full authority over Loghain and Howe and be able to either force him to step down or have him arrested for starting this Civil war.

But what does she do when her father declares himself regent over her? nothing!  What does she do when a Civil War occurs? Does she try to work out a compromise or do nothing...she does nothing!  What about everything Howe's been up to?  Nothing!

At first I figured that she simply didn't know...if this game had a short time span, I could buy that...but never knowing anything about them until you arrive at the Landsmeet and doing nothing until the Landsmeet and she expects me to believe that she had no idea about what was going on? BS!

Not only that, but when you step up and possibly place up her dead husband's brother as her replacement, aka
the guy who's been fighting the blight and gathering armies right alongside you, she'll backstab you unless you allow her to keep her pretty little throne!

Isn't a leader supposed to be able to stand up to stuff that is against their laws?  Even if that means going
against friends and family?  Isn't a leader supposed to place her country ahead of all else? Isn't a leader supposed to be strong enough to put down dissention?  Anora does none of the following:  She lets daddy hand Ferelden over to the blight on a silver platter because of Orleisan paranoia, she lets Howe dress up as a clown and terrorize/kidnap/murder her own citizens, she lets elves be sold to the evil magic empire in the north, and still insists on your support for her bid as queen?

Cailan may have been naive and a glory-seeker, but at least he had his country at heart when he went to Ostagar.  He was thinking of how to defend his people when he tried to forge an alliance with the Empress of Orlais.  He was somewhat using common sense by immediately seeking the advice of the Grey Wardens to fight the Blight...you know, the guys who've been fighting and ending the blights since the last four times they've happened!

With Anora, I only see a spoiled little brat who acts tough and wants everyone to do things
her way, but deep down is a coward to frightened to stand up to what is
clearly wrong and/or stupid.

Hence the reason Anora will never have the throne to herself...at least when I have say in the matter!

Thoughts? Disagreements? Anything I might've missed? Too harsh on the girl?  Too soft?

Modifié par ShadowLordXII, 24 octobre 2011 - 05:19 .

[Addai]

It's harshly worded, to be sure, but you're right- she does let Loghain steamroll her. As she says, she just trusted him at first. Loghain had acted as Maric's right hand almost her whole life- he had run the country after Rowan's death for a time- and I think Anora was pretty devastated after Ostagar. She does try to stand up to him (as in the cutscene where she's arguing with him), but isn't willing to do what she probably needed to do- which is to lock him up and take the reins herself.  I can't see that as a complete fault, just as I can't see Loghain not murdering Cailan or Eamon outright as a failing even though it was the politically pragmatic thing to do. I think it was Gaider who said the biggest thing to understand about Anora is that she is Loghain's daughter. They are both ruthless to an extent, but they allow themselves soft spots and personal loyalties.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 octobre 2011 - 06:09 .

[Bleachrude]

*Shrug*

It might actually be that initially Anora simply recognizes that she's not a WAR leader and trusts her father and by extension Howe, who ARE proven war leaders...

Of course, this _IS_ weird in that I would've thought that Anora, being the daughter of Loghain, would be one trained in war....I mean, it's not like you have to go THAT far back in Ferelden history to know that females can kick ass leading wars (Moira Theirin, Rowena Guerrin and Eleanor Cousland were all noted for being better than average leaders of men in times of war).

[ejoslin]

How could Anora have locked Loghain up? Her (Cailin's) army was lost at Ostegar while Loghain's was still intact.  Personal feelings aside, both Howe and Loghain had full armies.  Anora did try to talk to Teagan when he first started inciting the civil war.

I just don't see the situation as cut and dry for Anora.  She trusted her father, yes, and hated Howe, but no matter what her personal feelings, she would have needed more than a force of personality to pull Loghain, whom at least half the banorn trusted, out of power.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 octobre 2011 - 12:31 .

[Gabey5]

she was queen. No one would let that go, plus she was good at it

[ShimmeringDjinn]

BlackEmperor wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I agree. In fact the Warden shouldn't have a say in who take's the throne at all. Warden's are not supposed to meddle in politic's.

They're not, but of course they do. Sophia Dryden launched a rebellion against a Fereldan king that she believed was a tyrant.

Exactly and look how that turned out
I'd imagine that many in the Bannorn would believe that The Warden is no different to Sophia when she put's Alistair on the throne, especially IF the Warden also declare's herself Queen.
That is of course just my opinion on it.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 24 octobre 2011 - 02:33 .

[Mike3207]

Anora names her father Regent at about the same time they hold the funeral service for her husband Cailan, according to one of the rumors by Bodahn Feddic. I can't blame her for turning over control at a time when she was grieving for her husband. She realizes it was a mistake later, but not a lot you can do then about it.

[Persephone]

moogie1963 wrote...

@ Persephone
Are you aware of the fakt that conversations can change? Not only male,female,friendship or love,hate,cunning..... no, also whether you are Grey Warden or Cousland. And many more...
What Alistair must do or not,whether Anora is smart or gorgeous - everybody has his own opinion.
And how is The Calling an eyeopener?
Alistair doesn't know Duncan. How do you know that?
Duncan would recruited Loghain. How do you know that?
Riordan is not showing up when Alistair is fighting. Correct?
Cailans death - depends on how you see it,treason or not.

Yes, I finished the game many times to try out all options. So?

Opinions...ok, sure.

Read it. You'll see.

I know he didn't know Duncan at all because I read "The Calling".

Duncan would have recruited Loghain because: Look at who he has recruited so far. Traitors, kinslayers, murderers, thieves.... The Wardens recruit based on ability not sentimental reasons, Riordan proves this.

Yes, he never gets the chance because Alistair murders an opponent who has already surrendered. It's a despicable scene to me. So?

I couldn't care less about Cailan.

[RagingCyclone]

I'm reading up on this and I have a query. Anora we know was in favor for Cailan's bid for Orlesian help against the darkspawn. But I have to wonder how much of that was Anora and how much was influenced by Erlina, her handmaiden. And was this perhaps a factor in why Loghain removed her from direct power? We know he mentions that daughter's are always six-years-old in pigtails. I have a hunch Erlina plays a bigger role in this possibly as an Orlesian spy...but this is just speculation on my part.

[tklivory]

I think at one point (here or somewhere else, not sure) I talked a bit about Anora's father-hero-worship, so I think that it is very likely that this played into Anora's apparent acquiescence with her father taking over.  Also, regardless of the exact nature of Anora/Cailan's relationship, I would think that even someone as unflappable as Anora would need a bit of space to adjust to losing a husband and suddenly being sole ruler, and in a situation where she 1) doesn't have her own ready army (only Loghain/Howe do) and 2) there are active military decisions that need to be made, it makes sense that she would instinctively turn to a man that she not only hero-worships, but also has a reputation for military victory (Ostagar aside, and even then Anora doesn't have all the on-ground facts or perspectives and it is still under debate whether that was a failure, strategic retreat, treason, &c)
@Rage - hmmm.  I always thought it odd that Erlina was Orlesian, but never made that second leap that she might be a spy.  Erlina the bard?    How much influence this fact might have on Loghain's decision regarding the Regency &c I'm not sure, though.  At this point in the game, though, it is obvious that Loghain is extremely paranoid concerning the Orlesians.  I don't think it is presented that way by the writers directly, but they left a lot of things implied in the game (thus giving us many, many reasons to debate things! )

Also, where does it specify that Anora was in favor of an alliance with Orlais?  I honestly don't recall this, and I don't have my toolset ATM, or i'd fire it up and check myself.  I only rememeber Cailan's correspondence with Celene in RtO, which Loghain (if he's in your party) takes as proof that Cailan was going to put Anora aside, so I never saw that as *Anora* supporting the alliance with Orlais.

[Mike3207]

I recall hearing somewhere there was a strategy meeting between Cailan and Loghain in which Anora supported Loghain's strategy of Ostagar over Cailan. I think it was this meeting that was responsible for Cailan wanting to be on the front lines at Ostagar. That makes sense to me-I expect Anora had the same sort of reservations about the Orlesians that Loghain had.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:20 .