481 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

The only time I think I remember Anora talking about Orlais is in the cut-scene where she says paraphrasing "we should get the Orlesians, we need help".

Loghain flips his top so I don't think Anora was opposed to the Orlesians...Personally, I don't think Erlina could be a bard, it is just too obvious and Loghain has already dealt with an elven bard so I doubt he would be fooled twice. Pre-TST, maybe, but after that was written? No-way.

[tklivory]

Unless *Anora* was the bard...

i keed, i keed

I wonder, *aside* from Orlais, what were the other (realistic) options for outside help, anyway? I don't think she fully approved of her Father's 'let's go it alone' attitude, but what else could she suggest?  I mean, the Tevinter mages certainly had time to come and get slaves - were there any options besides Orlais, politically, that Anora could have tried to push for to circumvent her father's 'Orlesians are teh ebul' attitude?

[RagingCyclone]

The tie-in perhaps comes from the codex about Anora where it states she inspired Celene. Celene even stated "Anora of Ferelden is a solitary rose among brambles"

As for Loghain being fooled...he's not the one being fooled if Erlina is a spy...Anora and Cailan would be. That's why I think Loghain is so quick to remove Anora from power after Calain's death. It does fall in line with his thinking in The Stolen Throne.

[Bleachrude]

Next closest nations would be across the waking sea - Nevarra - they of the explicitly mentioned land-grabbing expansionistic codex entry or one of the city states if the Free marches - good luck there

[tklivory]

Man, when your *best* option for help is the country that occupied you for 80 years.... Thedas politics suck.

[Gallimatia]

BlackEmperor wrote...

m_k wrote...

She's afraid you will kill her father. She afraid to lose the power she's always had prior to Cailan's death, and Alistair does seem a weak candidate. I don't blame her for betraying you if you straight up tell her you don't support her.

What about if she betrays you for supporting her but still firmly stating that her father needs to face justice?

Anora will betray you only if you pick the line "There isn't. No question." when asked if there isn't a way to handle Loghain other than execution. That is to say if you show yourself to be uninterested in anything but vengance and that justice and utility doesn't factor into your decision. I think that's the implication of the line though I realize it can be interpreted more generously. 

I assign the line this meaning largely because "Justice must be done, don't you think?" is present as an alternative. It suggests you will see justice done and most likely kill him. If you use this answer she does not betray you (provided you side with her).

That is how I always played it. If my character was interested in justice, proper procedure and such, I'd pick "Justice must be done" and Anora would not betray me. If my character much like Alistair was driven by sadistic preferences in regards to Loghain I'd pick "There isn't [another way]" and she'd blindside me.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:29 .

[BlackEmperor]

Gallimatia wrote...

Anora will betray you only if you pick the line "There isn't. No question." when asked if there isn't a way to handle Loghain other than execution. That is to say if you show yourself to be uninterested in anything but vengance and that justice and utility doesn't factor into your decision. I think that's the implication of the line though I realize it can be intepreted more generously. 

I assign the line this meaning largely because "Justice must be done, don't you think?" is present as an alternative. It suggests you will see justice done and most likely kill him. If you use this answer she does not betray you (provided you side with her).

That is how I always played it. If my character was interested in justice, proper procedure and such, I'd pick "Justice must be done" and Anora would not betray me. If my character much like Alistair was driven by sadistic preferences in regards to Loghain I'd pick "There isn't [another way]" and she'd blindside me.

Ah. Thank you for clarifying. I've never had her betray me as a result of this conversation, so I didn't know which one is actually the trigger, or if there were several.

"Justice" is far more ambiguous than, "There isn't. No question." So she's willing to collude against her father, but only if there's a reasonable chance that it won't mean certain death for him.

I don't know what to make of that decision.

Modifié par BlackEmperor, 25 octobre 2011 - 12:24 .

[Mike3207]

Anora has a bit of hero worship for her father. She can accept the possibility of her father dying at the Landsmeet, but not if it's a premeditated decision. It's really strange-when you let Alistair kill Loghain, Alistair looks at the Warden, the Warden nods, and then Alistair kills Loghain. I would have thought an observant lady like Anora would notice that, but she doesn't. It has no impact on a alliance or marriage.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:30 .

[BlackEmperor]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

BlackEmperor wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

I agree. In fact the Warden shouldn't have a say in who take's the throne at all. Warden's are not supposed to meddle in politic's.

They're not, but of course they do. Sophia Dryden launched a rebellion against a Fereldan king that she believed was a tyrant.

Exactly and look how that turned out
I'd imagine that many in the Bannorn would believe that The Warden is no different to Sophia when she put's Alistair on the throne, especially IF the Warden also declare's herself Queen.
That is of course just my opinion on it.

Just Queen? Not king?  (I kidz! I kidz because I care.)

I think some in the Bannorn question your motives regardless of your ultimate role in the Landsmeet. Regardless of your origin, you're largely an outsider to Fereldan politics. In fact, in an odd bit of irony, it's Loghain's persecution of the wardens that thrusts them into the center stage by making the warden the only party left that is able to oppose him--each of the minor lords that oppose him does not, individually, have the clout to take him on, and Eamon's ties to Cailan only makes his support more suspect. It's the warden's outsider role that makes him/her a more neutral arbiter that all others coalesce their support behind. Which you can view as either legitimate given the circumstances or entirely too convenient to be believable.

It cuts both ways though. If you're making yourself king, there are some in the bannorn that are no doubt glad that some inexperienced upstart like Alistair won't be taking the throne. And if you make yourself queen, there will be some that will be glad to be rid of a commoner on the throne and would rather not have any vestige of Loghain's anywhere close to power.

Personal motives differ based on the perspective of the character you're playing. But I don't feel like anyone comes out of this mess smelling like roses.

[Gallimatia]

BlackEmperor wrote...
Ah. Thank you for clarifying. I've never had her betray me as a result of this conversation, so I didn't know which one is actually the trigger, or if there were several.

"Justice" is far more ambiguous than, "There isn't. No question." So she's willing to collude against her father, but only if there's a reasonable chance that it won't mean certain death for him.

I don't know what to make of that decision.

I recorded the two versions. The second one where Anora decides to go against you is funny. The first version is Anora honestly and despairingly agreeing to see justice done (as interpreted by her peers). She all but explicitly agrees to having Loghain executed.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 25 octobre 2011 - 08:10 .

[Ryzaki]

Ah I love having her betray me and then have her lose support anyway.

Only thing that would've made that scene better would've been executing her right after her father.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah I love having her betray me and then have her lose support anyway.

Only thing that would've made that scene better would've been executing her right after her father.

It's this kind of almost fanatical hatred I will NEVER understand. Never mind that I find it to be reprehensible and sickening.

She has done nothing to deserve it. Except not rolling over to your bloodthirsty egomaniac of a Warden saying "You want to depose me? Of course! And murder my father? Ok."

A quote:

CAESAR. If one man in all the world can be found, now or forever, to know that you did wrong, that man will have either to conquer the world as I have, or be crucified by it. [The uproar in the streets again reaches them]. Do you hear? These knockers at your gate are also believers in vengeance and in stabbing. You have slain their leader: it is right that they shall slay you. If you doubt it, ask your four counsellors here. And then in the name of that right [he emphasizes the word with great scorn] shall I not slay them for murdering their Queen, and be slain in my turn by their countrymen as the invader of their fatherland? Can Rome do less then than slay these slayers, too, to shew the world how Rome avenges her sons and her honor. And so, to the end of history, murder shall breed murder, always in the name of right and honor and peace, until the gods are tired of blood and create a race that can understand. (George B. Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra)

[Jedimaster88]

Hmm I quess Palpatine says it pretty well eventhough he is such a manipulative villain. "All, who gain power, are afraid to lose it."

[Jedimaster88]

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah I love having her betray me and then have her lose support anyway.

Only thing that would've made that scene better would've been executing her right after her father.

It's this kind of almost fanatical hatred I will NEVER understand. Never mind that I find it to be reprehensible and sickening.

She has done nothing to deserve it. Except not rolling over to your bloodthirsty egomaniac of a Warden saying "You want to depose me? Of course! And murder my father? Ok."

In my mind, I dont know if I actually hate her, but I cant say I like
her either. Maybe its because she is a politician. Someone, who is good
with words and all but also someone you cant necessarily trust. For my
warden, trust is everything.

Every time, when my human noble
warden goes to speak with anora and she immediately starts so speak
about knowing Eleanor and howe´s actions, I always wonder is she
actually telling the truth or is she simply saying those things to get
on my good side and to get my support more easily. She may tell the
truth but she may also not. Because I dont have more info about the
matter, I dont know.

The big reasons for my disliking her is how
she acts at the landsmeet. Executing Alistair, one of the possible
people, who can end the blight, Maric´s son, last from the Therin
bloodline, because of POLITICAL REASONS? No way, will I allow something
like that to happen.

I also dont like her arrogant attitude how
she openly mocks Alistair, eventhough she doesnt know the man properly
and all that "me, me, me" thing. Isnt it said that the best thing to
remember about Anora is that she is her fathers daughter? To me, this is
NOT a good thing.

I recently spared Loghains life and married
Alistair to Anora, out of curiosity to hear Loghains dialogue. I wont do
it again. The whole thing left a big bad taste in my mouth. I hated how
Anora basically stole the whole show. I hated how Alistair gets brushed
aside after everything he went through with me and nobody gives a sh**
about what he wants. Anora´s speech at the landsmeet didnt inspire me at
all. I wanted her to be silent many times and nearly chose Alistair
rule alone just to shut her up. Loghains dialogue wasnt that great and
actually felt pretty depressing. I dont remember hearing much positive
things if at all. After my curiosity was satisfied, I loaded a previous
save and executed Loghain and married Anora to Alistair.

Because of these things I have very little desire to let Anora rule alone eventhough she is capable.

Alistair
says that people like her and her father are the sort of people, who
think they are the only ones that can fix things and everyone should
just stay out of their way and I think he is right.

So no, I dont actually fanatically hate her, but I dont like her much either. The person, I do tend to hate a bit is Loghain
and he certainly has done things to deserve it. Even reading the novels
hasnt redeemed him that much in my eyes. Maybe a bit, but not that much.

Modifié par Jedimaster88, 25 octobre 2011 - 06:39 .

[Mike3207]

I really don't think it's a good idea to put anyone on the throne/ execute them because you like or dislike them. I execute Alistair at Landsmeet on the human noble path because he commits treason in claiming the throne after I've chosen Anora. He's not the only one-Loghain commits treason in refusing to give up his power as Regent after he's voted out by the Landsmeet. Alistair has claimed the throne, and Loghain doesn't, which is why I choose to execute Alistair over Loghain.

The real focus should be Ferelden-will Ferelden be better off with Alistair or Anora on the throne?Alistair does nothing to make me want to support him-his argument seems rather weak, even if he's hardened. He may become a good King, but I have a hard time seeing how any bann at the Landsmeet would support him in a vote. BTW, it's a real issue not having a Landsmeet vote on who takes the throne.

Anora has 5 years of experience ruling, and Alistair has no experience at leadership. At every turn, he chooses to let someone else lead. If you make a honest choice based on experience and leadership skills, I don't see how you can not put Anora on the throne.

[Persephone]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

In my mind, I dont know if I actually hate her, but I cant say I like
her either. Maybe its because she is a politician. Someone, who is good
with words and all but also someone you cant necessarily trust. For my
warden, trust is everything.

Every time, when my human noble
warden goes to speak with anora and she immediately starts so speak
about knowing Eleanor and howe´s actions, I always wonder is she
actually telling the truth or is she simply saying those things to get
on my good side and to get my support more easily. She may tell the
truth but she may also not. Because I dont have more info about the
matter, I dont know.

The big reasons for my disliking her is how
she acts at the landsmeet. Executing Alistair, one of the possible
people, who can end the blight, Maric´s son, last from the Therin
bloodline, because of POLITICAL REASONS? No way, will I allow something
like that to happen.

I also dont like her arrogant attitude how
she openly mocks Alistair, eventhough she doesnt know the man properly
and all that "me, me, me" thing. Isnt it said that the best thing to
remember about Anora is that she is her fathers daughter? To me, this is
NOT a good thing.

I recently spared Loghains life and married
Alistair to Anora, out of curiosity to hear Loghains dialogue. I wont do
it again. The whole thing left a big bad taste in my mouth. I hated how
Anora basically stole the whole show. I hated how Alistair gets brushed
aside after everything he went through with me and nobody gives a sh**
about what he wants. Anora´s speech at the landsmeet didnt inspire me at
all. I wanted her to be silent many times and nearly chose Alistair
rule alone just to shut her up. Loghains dialogue wasnt that great and
actually felt pretty depressing. I dont remember hearing much positive
things if at all. After my curiosity was satisfied, I loaded a previous
save and executed Loghain and married Anora to Alistair.

Because of these things I have very little desire to let Anora rule alone eventhough she is capable.

Alistair
says that people like her and her father are the sort of people, who
think they are the only ones that can fix things and everyone should
just stay out of their way and I think he is right.

So no, I dont actually fanatically hate her, but I dont like her much either. The person, I do tend to hate a bit is Loghain
and he certainly has done things to deserve it. Even reading the novels
hasnt redeemed him that much in my eyes. Maybe a bit, but not that much.

Trust is not something to be expected when it comes to dealing with great rulers. The allegiance of great princes is fleeting. Read Machiavelli's book on that. It's her shrewd understanding, her crafty brilliance, her sharp wit and her dignity that I admire. For a woman to have come this far is utterly amazing. And it is just another reason why she is treated with such scorn.

She orders the execution of a contender to her throne in a time of crisis. Something any competent ruler ought to do and many have done so. (Elizabeth I. is among them) Never mind that said contender wants her father dead and just staged a coup against her. Never mind that hardened Alistair hints at having Anora killed as well if he becomes king.

Loghain's dialogue is not meant to be cheerful. But if you treat him with courtesy, it is poignant and moving. Esp. at the end if you have him on Friendly. "Please, I have done so much wrong. Allow me to do one last thing right." or "The Grey Wardens could not have chosen finer. Would that I'd been wise enough to realize that sooner. I do my duty now as I always have, with all my heart." "I would have expected you to kill me and you did not. You have proven...a friend." Makes my heart swell more than any of Alistair's jokes.

And Anora stole the show because she was COMPETENT.

Alistair says..... Given that he has no training in politics, diplomacy, ruling or anything else other than Chantry/Templar drivel....I couldn't care less what he has to say about this.

Modifié par Persephone, 25 octobre 2011 - 07:26 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

How could Anora have locked Loghain up? Her (Cailin's) army was lost at Ostegar while Loghain's was still intact.  Personal feelings aside, both Howe and Loghain had full armies.  Anora did try to talk to Teagan when he first started inciting the civil war.

I just don't see the situation as cut and dry for Anora.  She trusted her father, yes, and hated Howe, but no matter what her personal feelings, she would have needed more than a force of personality to pull Loghain, whom at least half the banorn trusted, out of power.

I was thinking she would do so secretly but you're right, realistically she couldn't.  Then there's slipping him an Antivan cocktail which she would probably never do.  She does play with his life in talking to Eamon and the Warden, but tries to save him.  If we were looking at it from a historical standpoint, though, there are rulers who killed their whole family if they got in the way of rulership, which is what I had in mind.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:46 .

[Xilizhra]

She orders the execution of a contender to her throne in a time of crisis. Something any competent ruler ought to do and many have done so. (Elizabeth I. is among them) Never mind that said contender wants her father dead and just staged a coup against her. Never mind that hardened Alistair hints at having Anora killed as well if he becomes king.

I am curious. The only Warden I have who killed Loghain is a city elf, so I'm basically on your side, but in your opinion is it more morally sound for Anora to execute Alistair than for Alistair to execute Loghain?
Of course, I prefer to have no one die.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Mike Smith wrote...

I really don't think it's a good idea to put anyone on the throne/ execute them because you like or dislike them. I execute Alistair at Landsmeet on the human noble path because he commits treason in claiming the throne after I've chosen Anora.

Alistair claiming his father's throne is hardly treason, since at the time when he does so the Landsmeet is still deciding who will be the sovereign.
And if he is guilty of it then so is the Warden and everyone else in the room.

PS. Loghain commited treason when he left the King to die.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:01 .

[Xilizhra]

PS. Loghain commited treason when he left the King to die.

I disagree, but I don't want Loghain to be executed either. Alistair can serve better as a king, and Loghain as a Warden.

[Mike3207]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

I really don't think it's a good idea to put anyone on the throne/ execute them because you like or dislike them. I execute Alistair at Landsmeet on the human noble path because he commits treason in claiming the throne after I've chosen Anora.

Alistair claiming his father's throne is hardly treason, since at the time when he does so the Landsmeet is still deciding who will be the sovereign.
And if he is guilty of it then so is the Warden and everyone else in the room.

PS. Loghain commited treason when he left the King to die.

The Landsmeet gives the decision to the Warden, and he chose Anora. Alistair put himself forward as King after Anora is made Queen-no one told Alistair to do that. I admit it might be a borderline case. It's a stretch to say Loghain commits treason at Ostagar-we simply don't know if  Loghain's troops would have been destroyed if they went after the King. I think the strongest case to convict Loghain of treason is his refusal to resign as Regent after he's voted out by the Landsmeet-the duel definitely saves everyone what could be a very messy trial.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 26 octobre 2011 - 01:02 .

[BlackEmperor]

Persephone wrote...

Trust is not something to be expected when it comes to dealing with great rulers. The allegiance of great princes is fleeting. Read Machiavelli's book on that. It's her shrewd understanding, her crafty brilliance, her sharp wit and her dignity that I admire. For a woman to have come this far is utterly amazing. And it is just another reason why she is treated with such scorn.

She orders the execution of a contender to her throne in a time of crisis. Something any competent ruler ought to do and many have done so. (Elizabeth I. is among them) Never mind that said contender wants her father dead and just staged a coup against her. Never mind that hardened Alistair hints at having Anora killed as well if he becomes king.

Anora is also a child of circumstance. The whole reason why she ends up in arranged marriage with Cailan is because she happens to be the daughter of Fereldan's greatest war hero. Which is something that she has in common with Elizabeth I, since it was only by chance that her half brother Edward VI was a sickly child who died after only six years on the throne, and it was a narrow thing for her to survive the machinations of her half sister Mary before, after five years on the throne, a cancerous tumor ended her life.

The quality Anora doesn't share with Elizabeth I is that Anora is not a war leader. Loghain commands her troops with no regard to Anora's input and she has no control over the political situation as Fereldan descends into civil war.

From my point of view, it's Loghain who's committed the coup by leaving Calian in the lurch and assuming the position of regent. (We could also put Howe in that category too, since he kidnaps Anora--presumably to assert or gain more power.) I wouldn't try to argue that it's legitimate for Anora to execute Alistair for being a contender to the throne in a time of crisis while simultaneously condemning Alistair for wanting to do the same thing.

[BlackEmperor]

Mike Smith wrote...

The Landsmeet gives the decision to the Warden, and he chose Anora. Alistair put himself forward as King after Anora is made Queen-no one told Alistair to do that. I admit it might be a borderline case. It's a stretch to say Loghain commits treason at Ostagar-we simply don't know if  Loghain's troops would have been destroyed if they went after the King. I think the strongest case to convict Loghain of treason is his refusal to resign as Regent after he's voted out by the Landsmeet-the duel definitely saves everyone what could be a very messy trial.

Strictly speaking, self-preservation is not an excuse for refusing a king's orders. If you swear fealty to a king, you are swearing to do his bidding and, if necessary, lay down your life for him. If the king says, "When the beacon is lit, you command your armies to charge," and you don't, that's treason. Loghain believes he is acting for the good of the nation and that the ends justify the means, but it doesn't make the means anything else than what they are.

His behavior after you (assuming you do) win the Landsmeet only makes it worse. It does save us from a messy trial, but I do think it's kind of incongruous. The Landsmeet is called to settle the question of who sits on the throne, but it turns into a defacto trial of Loghain and his rule as regent. I mean, the nobles are voting who they support to decide who will rule--or maybe it's better put to say who will get to decide who rules--not whether Loghain has committed treason. Of course, maybe the game expects this to be so obvious at that point that it's not interested in making that distinction.