481 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Most queens only ruled their armies in name, even if they rode out to the battle (as Anora also does). Anora is not just queen by virtue of her father. She was raised and trained for the role by Maric, educated for it. She has a certain amount of political skill. Everyone recognizes this.

As for disobeying the king= treason, that's not really the case in a country like Ferelden, as opposed to a more authoritarian/ imperial country. The Orlesian emperor could probably say "l'etat, c'est moi," but in Ferelden the state is vested mostly in the Landsmeet and the king answers to the LM. In leaving Ostagar, Loghain was partly following a promise he had made to Maric not to risk the country for the sake of one man (as he had done for Maric at West Hill).  Fealty always goes two ways, and he saw Cailan as a threat to the country.  If there is treason anywhere, it was in Loghain proclaiming himself regent without allowing the LM to vote on it.  That's an offense that's echoed if the Wardens lose the LM vote and then proceed to start a bloody altercation to overturn the results of the vote.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 octobre 2011 - 02:14 .

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Mike Smith wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

I really don't think it's a good idea to put anyone on the throne/ execute them because you like or dislike them. I execute Alistair at Landsmeet on the human noble path because he commits treason in claiming the throne after I've chosen Anora.

Alistair claiming his father's throne is hardly treason, since at the time when he does so the Landsmeet is still deciding who will be the sovereign.
And if he is guilty of it then so is the Warden and everyone else in the room.

PS. Loghain commited treason when he left the King to die.

The Landsmeet gives the decision to the Warden, and he chose Anora. Alistair put himself forward as King after Anora is made Queen

Not according to the toolset.  The first time Alistair demands the throne is before goldilocks is made Queen not after.
But it matter's not. Loghain will always die in my games and Anora will always be Queen.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 26 octobre 2011 - 02:52 .

[ShadowLordXII]

Also another question that's bugged me is how a lot of people don't see Alistair as qualified to run the throne.

Fine, when he started off in the game, he was just a follower but isn't this the other warden who's been actively trying to fight the blight while Anora just stayed in Denerem and let Loghain run the Civil War?

Being Politically savvy can only do so much when your country is being overrun by an apocalyptic blight.  If everything had been left to Loghain and Anora then Ferelden would have been overwhelmed by the blight because:
1) they're entangled in a civil war which can be easily stopped but they won't due to their own reasons.
2) they don't have any immediate allies around Thedas who will come to their aid when the beacons are lit and thanks to Loghain, the closest nation that could fight the blight was turned back at the border.
3) the other grey wardens were actually willing to let a divided Ferelden be overrun while they strengthed other nearby areas.
4) Even if they're not helping Howe, they're all too happy to collaborate with him for a full year before the landsmeet.

After all of that, Anora is still a competent candidate? It's said that a crisis/disaster will bring out both the worst and the best of someone and if that's true then Anora's worst qualities overturn any experience or cleaverness she may have. How much of Ferelden was taken by the Blight before the Landsmeet? If I recall, there were only three other arlings not under Howe's control and one of them fell to the Blight due to the Civil War!  Yet...Cailan was "idiot".

Even if Alistair isn't the best "ruling" figure, that doesn't discount him as a leader.  If chosen, the epilogue shows that he becomes a splendid king whether hardened or unhardened (though admittingly, hardened Alistair is the better man), who was even willing to stand up to insane, constrict power, kill-all-mages Meredith!

With Alistair, he isn't the most obvious leader figure, but he is one.  When he becomes king, he became a leader by example.  "First into the charge, and the last to leave the field", that may be clique or naive, but aren't leaders more respected and therefore, effective when they display a willingness to put themselves in danger for their people? Doesn't Alistair do that by being fully willing to face an Archdemon that will kill him if he slays it?  I didn't see Anora fighting during the battle of Denerem, I only saw her make a weak speech and send everyone else off to fight.

You know about Queen Elizabeth and Churchill?  You know why they're so beloved and respected despite their faults? Because they bunkered down with the rest of London when the Germans started bombing it during WWII! Richard the Lionheart? Not the best king, but was respected and loved for his wllingness to fight with his army!

That's what I get from Alistair, selflessness.  True, it takes a nudge in the right direction throughout your gameplay and he's reluctant at first, but when he gets the job, he seems to naturally fit into it.  Because he knows about the crisis and it shaped him into someone to lead Ferelden against the Blight.

As for Anora? I've got nothing.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Also another question that's bugged me is how a lot of people don't see Alistair as qualified to run the throne.

Fine, when he started off in the game, he was just a follower but isn't this the other warden who's been actively trying to fight the blight while Anora just stayed in Denerem and let Loghain run the Civil War?

Being Politically savvy can only do so much when your country is being overrun by an apocalyptic blight.  If everything had been left to Loghain and Anora then Ferelden would have been overwhelmed by the blight because:
1) they're entangled in a civil war which can be easily stopped but they won't due to their own reasons.
2) they don't have any immediate allies around Thedas who will come to their aid when the beacons are lit and thanks to Loghain, the closest nation that could fight the blight was turned back at the border.
3) the other grey wardens were actually willing to let a divided Ferelden be overrun while they strengthed other nearby areas.
4) Even if they're not helping Howe, they're all too happy to collaborate with him for a full year before the landsmeet.

After all of that, Anora is still a competent candidate? It's said that a crisis/disaster will bring out both the worst and the best of someone and if that's true then Anora's worst qualities overturn any experience or cleaverness she may have. How much of Ferelden was taken by the Blight before the Landsmeet? If I recall, there were only three other arlings not under Howe's control and one of them fell to the Blight due to the Civil War!  Yet...Cailan was "idiot".

Even if Alistair isn't the best "ruling" figure, that doesn't discount him as a leader.  If chosen, the epilogue shows that he becomes a splendid king whether hardened or unhardened (though admittingly, hardened Alistair is the better man), who was even willing to stand up to insane, constrict power, kill-all-mages Meredith!

With Alistair, he isn't the most obvious leader figure, but he is one.  When he becomes king, he became a leader by example.  "First into the charge, and the last to leave the field", that may be clique or naive, but aren't leaders more respected and therefore, effective when they display a willingness to put themselves in danger for their people? Doesn't Alistair do that by being fully willing to face an Archdemon that will kill him if he slays it?  I didn't see Anora fighting during the battle of Denerem, I only saw her make a weak speech and send everyone else off to fight.

You know about Queen Elizabeth and Churchill?  You know why they're so beloved and respected despite their faults? Because they bunkered down with the rest of London when the Germans started bombing it during WWII! Richard the Lionheart? Not the best king, but was respected and loved for his wllingness to fight with his army!

That's what I get from Alistair, selflessness.  True, it takes a nudge in the right direction throughout your gameplay and he's reluctant at first, but when he gets the job, he seems to naturally fit into it.  Because he knows about the crisis and it shaped him into someone to lead Ferelden against the Blight.

As for Anora? I've got nothing.

I see Alistair as being capable of running the country, I just prefer him to run off in to the sunset with my female Surana
Besides Anora and her father are the one's who messed the country, and since her father is as dead as a door nail it's only fair that she be made to fix it. It's a win win situation from my Wardens point of view :happy:

Edit. I completely agree with everything you wrote about Alistair.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 26 octobre 2011 - 02:54 .

[ShadowLordXII]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Also another question that's bugged me is how a lot of people don't see Alistair as qualified to run the throne.

Fine, when he started off in the game, he was just a follower but isn't this the other warden who's been actively trying to fight the blight while Anora just stayed in Denerem and let Loghain run the Civil War?

Being Politically savvy can only do so much when your country is being overrun by an apocalyptic blight.  If everything had been left to Loghain and Anora then Ferelden would have been overwhelmed by the blight because:
1) they're entangled in a civil war which can be easily stopped but they won't due to their own reasons.
2) they don't have any immediate allies around Thedas who will come to their aid when the beacons are lit and thanks to Loghain, the closest nation that could fight the blight was turned back at the border.
3) the other grey wardens were actually willing to let a divided Ferelden be overrun while they strengthed other nearby areas.
4) Even if they're not helping Howe, they're all too happy to collaborate with him for a full year before the landsmeet.

After all of that, Anora is still a competent candidate? It's said that a crisis/disaster will bring out both the worst and the best of someone and if that's true then Anora's worst qualities overturn any experience or cleaverness she may have. How much of Ferelden was taken by the Blight before the Landsmeet? If I recall, there were only three other arlings not under Howe's control and one of them fell to the Blight due to the Civil War!  Yet...Cailan was "idiot".

Even if Alistair isn't the best "ruling" figure, that doesn't discount him as a leader.  If chosen, the epilogue shows that he becomes a splendid king whether hardened or unhardened (though admittingly, hardened Alistair is the better man), who was even willing to stand up to insane, constrict power, kill-all-mages Meredith!

With Alistair, he isn't the most obvious leader figure, but he is one.  When he becomes king, he became a leader by example.  "First into the charge, and the last to leave the field", that may be clique or naive, but aren't leaders more respected and therefore, effective when they display a willingness to put themselves in danger for their people? Doesn't Alistair do that by being fully willing to face an Archdemon that will kill him if he slays it?  I didn't see Anora fighting during the battle of Denerem, I only saw her make a weak speech and send everyone else off to fight.

You know about Queen Elizabeth and Churchill?  You know why they're so beloved and respected despite their faults? Because they bunkered down with the rest of London when the Germans started bombing it during WWII! Richard the Lionheart? Not the best king, but was respected and loved for his wllingness to fight with his army!

That's what I get from Alistair, selflessness.  True, it takes a nudge in the right direction throughout your gameplay and he's reluctant at first, but when he gets the job, he seems to naturally fit into it.  Because he knows about the crisis and it shaped him into someone to lead Ferelden against the Blight.

As for Anora? I've got nothing.

I see Alistair as being capable of running the country, I just prefer him to run off in to the sunset with my female Surana
Besides Anora is the one who messed the country up so it's only fair that she be made to fix it. It's a win win situation from my Wardens point of view :happy:

Edit. I completely agree with everything you wrote about Alistair.

Besides, the only reason Alistair starts off as the follower-type is because of how he was raised.  Eamon pretty much told him that he was an unwanted child, had him sleep out in the cold with the dogs, and shipped him off to Templar training to appease Isolde. 

In fact the only one's whose ever shown him any sort of real appreciation and not write him off as a burden was Duncan and the other Grey Wardens, hence why he "childlessly" thinks Loghain deserves justice.

But give him the ammunition and the boy will form a backbone all on his own, to where he'll still stay around and rule Ferelden even though Loghain's still alive.

Anora? Throws a hissy fit and doesn't see the bigger threat when she loses.  She still insists on her claim and Alistair shows greater character by not only sparing her, but letting her have the throne if he dies even though Anora admits and we know she would be far from being as merciful. (Though I do wish there were a way to kill Anora, if we can kill Connor or Isolde and Duncan died early, then why can't we kill Anora?)

[ShimmeringDjinn]

@Shadow
Alistair offering her the throne if he die's is a very good point.
I've always thought  his behaviour after Duncan die's to be perfectly natural. It would be rather worrying if the man felt nothing.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 26 octobre 2011 - 03:08 .

[tklivory]

Interesting turn of argument.  In an absolute sense, the analysis within this thread is evolving into an inadvertent comparison of philosophical schools of thought - pragmatist, cynic, realist, idealist, &c.  The Dragon Age writers certainly patterned much of the writing for their characters after certain beats of philosophy: Cailan and Alistair (at least initially) are idealist, Loghain is a pretty staunch realist ("Let us attend to reality!"), Duncan stands in for the Grey Wardens who pretend to be pragmatists.  To a certain extent, Flemeth could even be argued to be a cynic (in the Hellenistic sense), at least at first.

To bring it back OT:
Anora's end role in the game (Queen or not) seems to largely depend on the underlying philosophy of the PC.

I feel verklempt.  Discuss: how does Anora's fate reflect the philosophical underpinnings with which Bioware's games are infused?

Modifié par tklivory, 26 octobre 2011 - 03:18 .

[BlackEmperor]

Addai67 wrote...

Most queens only ruled their armies in name, even if they rode out to the battle (as Anora also does). Anora is not just queen by virtue of her father. She was raised and trained for the role by Maric, educated for it. She has a certain amount of political skill. Everyone recognizes this.

As for disobeying the king= treason, that's not really the case in a country like Ferelden, as opposed to a more authoritarian/ imperial country. The Orlesian emperor could probably say "l'etat, c'est moi," but in Ferelden the state is vested mostly in the Landsmeet and the king answers to the LM. In leaving Ostagar, Loghain was partly following a promise he had made to Maric not to risk the country for the sake of one man (as he had done for Maric at West Hill).  Fealty always goes two ways, and he saw Cailan as a threat to the country.  If there is treason anywhere, it was in Loghain proclaiming himself regent without allowing the LM to vote on it.  That's an offense that's echoed if the Wardens lose the LM vote and then proceed to start a bloody altercation to overturn the results of the vote.

Depends on which queens we're talking about. Boudica was most certainly a hands-on war leader, not one in name only. In other cases though queens chose who lead their armies in their stead. Even if Anora legitimately named Loghain to be the regent (which personally I highly doubt), it's clear that she quickly loses control over him. Choosing and having control over your generals is part and parcel of being a great war leader and a great queen.

She was raised and trained for it--because she was promised to Cailan when they were both young. Because she was Loghain's daughter. She's not chosen at random for it and she's not purely chosen for the job by virtue of her own prowess, even though in time she proves to have that in spades.

Fealty does go both ways, and kings do have an obligation to serve to their vassals as much as they serve the king. We're not talking about a disagreement over property taxes though or some such. We're talking about disobeying a direct order on the field of battle at the critical moment. Regardless of the intricacies of Fereldan politics, I don't think vassals of any rank or stature have that authority. I don't see how a nation's armies could function if the king, as general, didn't have absolute authority on the battlefield. I honestly don't think that can be construed as anything but treason. I can understand why he might have done it. I can understand why he thinks he's justified in doing it. But it doesn't make it something it's not.

The fealty-cuts-both-ways understanding of Fereldan politics isn't something that Loghain subscribes to in any case. As soon as he's regent, he quickly resorts to brute force to bring the bannorn into line, having no trouble stringing them up as he sees fit. It's Loghain who's "terribly Orlesian" (to borrow a phrase from Seneshcal Varel) in how he rules.

[Addai]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Being Politically savvy can only do so much when your country is being overrun by an apocalyptic blight.  If everything had been left to Loghain and Anora then Ferelden would have been overwhelmed by the blight because:
1) they're entangled in a civil war which can be easily stopped but they won't due to their own reasons.

What makes you think that?  Succession happens rarely without controversy, even Maric's and Cailan's.  Loghain fanned controversy by seizing the regency, but it's possible there would have been at least some unrest regardless.  The Bannorn tend to use instability to start knifing each other, just as Howe did with the Couslands.

2) they don't have any immediate allies around Thedas who will come to their aid when the beacons are lit and thanks to Loghain, the closest nation that could fight the blight was turned back at the border.

I happen to agree with Loghain that letting chevaliers into Fereldan borders is a very bad idea, especially before they know what they're dealing with.

3) the other grey wardens were actually willing to let a divided Ferelden be overrun while they strengthed other nearby areas.
4) Even if they're not helping Howe, they're all too happy to collaborate with him for a full year before the landsmeet.

Not sure what you mean about the GWs, or how Loghain and Anora could have changed that.  As for Howe, what he did in Highever was fait accompli.  They needed his armies.  What else were they supposed to do?

I don't think Alistair makes a bad ruler- we know from his epilogues that he doesn't.  However Anora is also a good ruler.  Like Alistair, she is allowed to make mistakes and be human, though it's also fair to call her to account for what happened under her rule.  There's no way to know if someone else would have done better.  The fact is the writers gave you a valid choice either way.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 octobre 2011 - 03:30 .

[Addai]

BlackEmperor wrote...

Depends on which queens we're talking about. Boudica was most certainly a hands-on war leader, not one in name only. In other cases though queens chose who lead their armies in their stead. Even if Anora legitimately named Loghain to be the regent (which personally I highly doubt), it's clear that she quickly loses control over him. Choosing and having control over your generals is part and parcel of being a great war leader and a great queen.

You mentioned Elizabeth, though.  She was on the battlefield in much the same way as Anora was.  BTW it is impossible to know if Boudica actually fought, either- as far as I know there are no accounts of it.  Tacitus only talks about her giving speeches to her troops. (edit: Also, the fact that she dies of poison instead of wounds tells me she was a non-combatant, was behind the lines and killed herself when she saw the battle was lost rather than be taken prisoner.  There were women who fought and commanded armies in Europe, but you'd probably have to go to the Mongols to find an actual warrior queen.  I'm reading a book about them right now. ^^)

Though I do agree that not beng able to control Loghain and thus the army is a failing on her part.  Not sure there is anyone else in Ferelden who could have stood against Loghain.  Even Maric would not have gained the throne without him.  Having a famous general as your right hand can have its down sides, since he who holds the army...  That is a weakness Anora shared with her predecessors, and she and Alistair are incidentally in the same position with the Warden, who carries the day out of pure muscle.

She was raised and trained for it--because she was promised to Cailan when they were both young. Because she was Loghain's daughter. She's not chosen at random for it and she's not purely chosen for the job by virtue of her own prowess, even though in time she proves to have that in spades.

No more than Cailan was.  If ability had been the only criterion for succession, Cailan would probably not have had the throne.

Fealty does go both ways, and kings do have an obligation to serve to their vassals as much as they serve the king. We're not talking about a disagreement over property taxes though or some such. We're talking about disobeying a direct order on the field of battle at the critical moment. Regardless of the intricacies of Fereldan politics, I don't think vassals of any rank or stature have that authority. I don't see how a nation's armies could function if the king, as general, didn't have absolute authority on the battlefield. I honestly don't think that can be construed as anything but treason. I can understand why he might have done it. I can understand why he thinks he's justified in doing it. But it doesn't make it something it's not.

The battle plan was Loghain's, not Cailan's, and there's no telling whether or not Cailan would have agreed with Loghain about the decision to abandon the field if the roles were reversed- or let's say Maric, who was not quite as hot-headed as his son.  The horde was much larger than any of them anticipated.  Loghain made a judgment call.  A commander is expected to do that.  Calling it "treason" is kind of meaningless.  Cailan is not Ferelden, even if you could argue that Loghain's action was intended as a deliberate assault on him.

The fealty-cuts-both-ways understanding of Fereldan politics isn't something that Loghain subscribes to in any case. As soon as he's regent, he quickly resorts to brute force to bring the bannorn into line, having no trouble stringing them up as he sees fit. It's Loghain who's "terribly Orlesian" (to borrow a phrase from Seneshcal Varel) in how he rules.

True, and part of the tragedy of his character arc.  That's why I said if he commits treason, it's in trying to act as despot instead of submitting to the messy and risky Landsmeet process.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 octobre 2011 - 04:18 .

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

PS. Loghain commited treason when he left the King to die.

King Maric begs to differ.

Cailan has no one to blame but himself.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

PS. Loghain commited treason when he left the King to die.

King Maric begs to differ.

Cailan has no one to blame but himself.

Yes I'm sure King Maric is positively jumping joy and beaming with happiness over his son's death.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

PS. Loghain commited treason when he left the King to die.

King Maric begs to differ.

Cailan has no one to blame but himself.

Yes I'm sure King Maric is positively jumping joy and beaming with happiness over his son's death.

Read "The Stolen Throne" before making ridiculous assumptions, alright?

[tklivory]

Addai67 wrote...

Though I do agree that not beng able to control Loghain and thus the army is a failing on her part.  Not sure there is anyone else in Ferelden who could have stood against Loghain.  Even Maric would not have gained the throne without him.  Having a famous general as your right hand can have its down sides, since he who holds the army...  That is a weakness Anora shared with her predecessors, and she and Alistair are incidentally in the same position with the Warden, who carries the day out of pure muscle.

A weakness shared with a great many IRL rulers, as well.  There was an extended period of French history where the Majordomo was the ruler of the throne behind the titular King (Merovingian kings), the famous Caesar/Pompey debacle (followed by Antony/Augustus), and even Hernan Cortes was someone's general before he made himself ruler in the Americas....

True, and part of the tragedy of his character arc.  That's why I said if he commits treason, it's in trying to act as despot instead of submitting to the messy and risky Landsmeet process.

I don't think Loghain saw himself as a despot (though Anora may have begun to).  As a realist, he saw what needed to be done and tried to do it.  His error and ultimate tragedy lay in not apprehending the true nature of the greater danger to the country he ultimately failed.  Whether he is executed by the Warden/Alistair or is recruited as a Grey Warden, the tragedy in true Grecian sense arises because the central tenet of his character - loyalty to Fereldan - is in fact what leads him to betray Fereldan.  Whether or not he in fact betrayed Cailan, whether or not he in fact betrayed the Wardens, in the end his loyalty to Fereldan leads him to betray it through failure, and that is his tragedy.

Modifié par tklivory, 26 octobre 2011 - 04:57 .

[tklivory]

Persephone wrote...

Cailan has no one to blame but himself.

The curse of the idealist in a world such as Thedas.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

PS. Loghain commited treason when he left the King to die.

King Maric begs to differ.

Cailan has no one to blame but himself.

Yes I'm sure King Maric is positively jumping joy and beaming with happiness over his son's death.

Read "The Stolen Throne" before making ridiculous assumptions, alright?

I've read it thank you. And the calling too.
And by the way, I'm entitled to MY opinion just as you are entitled to yours.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 26 octobre 2011 - 04:56 .

[Persephone]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Even if Alistair isn't the best "ruling" figure, that doesn't discount him as a leader.  If chosen, the epilogue shows that he becomes a splendid king whether hardened or unhardened (though admittingly, hardened Alistair is the better man),

That's what I get from Alistair, selflessness.  True, it takes a nudge in the right direction throughout your gameplay and he's reluctant at first, but when he gets the job, he seems to naturally fit into it.  Because he knows about the crisis and it shaped him into someone to lead Ferelden against the Blight.

As for Anora? I've got nothing.

Splendid king when unhardened? *Facepalm*

As for Anora, I have a lot (No sentimental stuff however, thank God)

Anora is loved by her people. Yes, that matters.

Well trained and experience in diplomacy, politics and government

Smart, sharp and strong as well as dignified despite her husband's betrayal and adultery

A great reputation among foreign rulers

Born on the legit side of the marriage bed. (Yes, that mattered a lot)

A cool head on her shoulders. No tantrums here.



So you don't see her fight.... Huh, when Alistair isn't part of my group (Msrried to Anora), I don't see him fight either. So?

Alistair: A good man, Anora herself says so. But untrained, reluctant, inexperienced, put forth as a puppet by Eamon, prone to tantrums if he doesn't get his way (Not only Anora disagrees with him, Riordan does too), no match for the nobility....not to speak of foreign rulers such as Empress Celene. Not much to recommend him there. (As king. I like him as a character)

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

PS. Loghain commited treason when he left the King to die.

King Maric begs to differ.

Cailan has no one to blame but himself.

Yes I'm sure King Maric is positively jumping joy and beaming with happiness over his son's death.

Read "The Stolen Throne" before making ridiculous assumptions, alright?

I've read it thank you. And the calling too.
And by the way, I'm entitled to MY opinion just as you are entitled to yours.

So you remember what happened between Maric and Loghain after he risked all to save the king, right? At West Hill...... Where Loghain and Rowan DID sacrifice their army to save the king.

[Persephone]

tklivory wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Cailan has no one to blame but himself.

The curse of the idealist in a world such as Thedas.

In any world in a crisis.

Never mind that I do not see him as an idealist but as a king betraying both his country as well as his wife. (RTO documents) And as a foolish glory-hound.

[tklivory]

Persephone wrote...

Born on the legit side of the marriage bed. (Yes, that mattered a lot)

I'm curious, why is this important to you?  As a measure of how he would be accepted by the Bannorn, or for other reasons?

[ShimmeringDjinn]

@persephone
So your saying that because of that Maric would be happy his son died at Ostagar and the army didn't? Would he also be happy that Loghain tried to have Alistair killed too?
As a mother, I just can't it. Sorry I just can't.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 26 octobre 2011 - 05:12 .

[Persephone]

tklivory wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Born on the legit side of the marriage bed. (Yes, that mattered a lot)

I'm curious, why is this important to you?  As a measure of how he would be accepted by the Bannorn, or for other reasons?

To me personally it isn't.

Politically it is. Even someone as brilliant as Elizabeth I. faced A LOT of trouble due to her questionable birth. (And her parents were married, while no one even knows who Alistair's mother is) That can be used against him in many ways. It takes someone as brilliant as William the Conqueror and Elizabeth I. to overcome that. And Alistair is anything but their equal.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

@persephone
So your saying that because of that Maric would be happy his son died at Ostagar and the army didn't? Would he also be happy that Loghain tried to have Alistair killed too?
As a mother, I just can't it. Sorry I just can't.

I understand.

And no, he would not be happy. But he would understand it for what it was. As a tactical retreat to save as much of the army as possible. Never mind that Cailan would have died anyway, given that he dies only a minute after the beacon is lit. A casuality of war. Many kings died this way, sadly. As for Alistair, his birth had nothing to do with it, never mind Maric never knowing Alistair at all.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

tklivory wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Born on the legit side of the marriage bed. (Yes, that mattered a lot)

I'm curious, why is this important to you?  As a measure of how he would be accepted by the Bannorn, or for other reasons?

To me personally it isn't.

Politically it is. Even someone as brilliant as Elizabeth I. faced A LOT of trouble due to her questionable birth. (And her parents were married, while no one even knows who Alistair's mother is) That can be used against him in many ways. It takes someone as brilliant as William the Conqueror and Elizabeth I. to overcome that. And Alistair is anything but their equal.

I agree with you there. If the speculation about his mother being Fiona is true then I can't see any of the noble's supporting him.
It's one thing to put 'someone born the wrong side of the blanket on the throne' but it's quiet another if that person is also half elf.

[tklivory]

Persephone wrote...

Never mind that I do not see him as an idealist but as a king betraying both his country as well as his wife. (RTO documents) And as a foolish glory-hound.

Idealists can be very guilty of this, as they tend to see things as they might/should be rather than as they are.  Cailan was an idealist in that he assumed the Wardens were always triumphant and that battle was as glorious as he thought it should be.  Thus the rather heavy-handed contrast between idealist Calian and realist Loghain.

Hmmm.. I don't know if I would personally use the word betray to describe Cailan's behavior, but that is likely just a matter of semantics.  He certainly suffers from the road paved with good intentions: he responds, in the larger sense, correctly to the warning of the Blight, then completely fails in his responsibility to think of the big picture.  A glory-hound, 'tis true, but not a malicious one for all of that.  (Aside from the implications of his infidelity with Anora, but TBH, that is a whole 'nother discussion, also tied up in the politics of Mac Tir vs Guerrin)

And to be honest, it can be problematic to hold Anora's upbringing up as a point in her favor and against Alistair when Cailan (who, we can presume, was also raised to rule) failed so miserably at it.

Both Anora and Alistair are selfish in different ways.  Is it fair to hold Alistair to account for objecting to Loghain's being spared by the Warden, when Anora objects to her Father's execution when it has been called for by the Warden?  They are both being selfish, and should both be held equally in that selfish light.

"Ah, but Alistair left when he didn't get his way and Anora didn't!"  Anora wanted 2 things: to be Queen and for her Father to live.  That she remains shows in part which one was more important to her.  Alistair wanted 2 things: to kill Loghain and to kill the Archdemon.  When he leaves, it also reveals which one is more important to him.  Different degrees of selfishness which, in part, show that all humans have lines which cannot be crossed.  (and that they ran out of money for the 3rd option, but I digress...)

Does this make one better than the other as a person?  No.  Better as a ruler?  The game does a fairly good job of making the ambiguity of this decision rest entirely on the PC/player.  Some people will firmly believe that Anora is *obviously* the better choice for ruler, and others Alistair.  'Tis the sign of excellent characters and writing, and makes for good discussion.

Modifié par tklivory, 26 octobre 2011 - 05:31 .