481 réponses à ce sujet

[RagingCyclone]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

@persephone
So your saying that because of that Maric would be happy his son died at Ostagar and the army didn't? Would he also be happy that Loghain tried to have Alistair killed too?
As a mother, I just can't it. Sorry I just can't.

I understand.

And no, he would not be happy. But he would understand it for what it was. As a tactical retreat to save as much of the army as possible. Never mind that Cailan would have died anyway, given that he dies only a minute after the beacon is lit. A casuality of war. Many kings died this way, sadly. As for Alistair, his birth had nothing to do with it, never mind Maric never knowing Alistair at all.

Catching up and I find it kind of funny you are using Maric the boy-king to anticipate the feelings of Maric the father.  I would imagine his outlook changed greatly after he became a father....kids do that to a man. He was even showing that kind of change in The Calling taking to heart what Flemeth had told him in The Stolen Throne. Loghain was the pragmatic man urging Maric not to join the wardens in their quest while Maric snuck out and did so anyway. Maric was not as pragmatic as you would seem to think he is. Both his sons carry that same trait just like Anora carries Loghain's pragatism.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 26 octobre 2011 - 06:09 .

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah I love having her betray me and then have her lose support anyway.

Only thing that would've made that scene better would've been executing her right after her father.

It's this kind of almost fanatical hatred I will NEVER understand. Never mind that I find it to be reprehensible and sickening.

She has done nothing to deserve it. Except not rolling over to your bloodthirsty egomaniac of a Warden saying "You want to depose me? Of course! And murder my father? Ok."

A quote:

CAESAR. If one man in all the world can be found, now or forever, to know that you did wrong, that man will have either to conquer the world as I have, or be crucified by it. [The uproar in the streets again reaches them]. Do you hear? These knockers at your gate are also believers in vengeance and in stabbing. You have slain their leader: it is right that they shall slay you. If you doubt it, ask your four counsellors here. And then in the name of that right [he emphasizes the word with great scorn] shall I not slay them for murdering their Queen, and be slain in my turn by their countrymen as the invader of their fatherland? Can Rome do less then than slay these slayers, too, to shew the world how Rome avenges her sons and her honor. And so, to the end of history, murder shall breed murder, always in the name of right and honor and peace, until the gods are tired of blood and create a race that can understand. (George B. Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra)

And Caesar of all people would have had her executed as well especially given her ambition and unwillingness to give up the throne. Caesar was many things...he wasn't stupid though. And letting someone who openly tells you they're not giving up the throne live when the king already has a shaky hold on the crown is stupidity. She should've been killed immediately and Eamon should've been Alistair's go to person if he really needed someone to take the throne in case he kicked the bucket. 

Also bloodthirsty egomanaic? I suppose Anora is bloodthirsty and egomanical seeing as she calls for Alistair's execution for a similar reason.  FYI My warden didn't threaten to depose her. My warden was gonna support her but told her her murdering backstabbing father was gonna die for his crimes. Oh noes. The law being followed. Whatever shall poor Anora do. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2011 - 07:34 .

[Ryzaki]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah I love having her betray me and then have her lose support anyway.

Only thing that would've made that scene better would've been executing her right after her father.

It's this kind of almost fanatical hatred I will NEVER understand.

I suppose it's all in the context . . . and maybe you know something about Ryzaki I don't as I tend to forget a lot of the regular posters the second I log off . . . but I don't get any sense of fanatical hatered from this post. 

All I get is a sense that it's a game and Ryz thinks it's funny when she backstabs the Warden and still gets voted down.  Epic fail on her part.

Let me put it another way - when Alan got his nose broke by the lesbian on last night's episode of 2 1/2 Men I didn't become all up in arms about it.  I just laughed.  I could've argued that he's had some truly bad breaks in life and the guy was just lookin for love and blah blah blah.  But in the context of a TV sitcom . . . it was funny.  Epic fail on his part.

Also this. 

It's a game. It's kind of pathetic how people feel the need to talk down on someone for how they feel about a game. It's not fanatical hatred to lmao at a fictional character failing. 

Fanatical hatred was the holocaust, apatheid, racism, and all that other stuff. Not me laughing because a video game character gets owned. 

Really it makes you seem like you've never had a day of actual hatred aimed at you when you say crap like that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2011 - 07:42 .

[Xilizhra]

Is there anyone besides me who just would have preferred that of these people, no one had to die? Cailan wasn't terribly bright, but he was definitely a good person who didn't deserve to die (and I think any possible marriage to Celene was Eamon's idea). He was just in a bad position.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
  FYI My warden didn't threaten to depose her. My warden was gonna support her but told her her murdering backstabbing father was gonna die for his crimes. Oh noes. The law being followed. Whatever shall poor Anora do. 

Don't you think it's kind of stupid to expose your intentions like that?

My Dain Aeducan (2nd Canon) told her he'd not only support her  but also spare Loghain, only to kill him and depose her (he had this planned long before). It's incomprehensible to me to complain when the Warden exposing him / herself acted like an idiot.

A smart Warden would have simply lied and killed Loghain on the spot without telling Anora. A smarter one would have made Alistair do it, so you can wash your hands from it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 octobre 2011 - 05:20 .

[ShimmeringDjinn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
  FYI My warden didn't threaten to depose her. My warden was gonna support her but told her her murdering backstabbing father was gonna die for his crimes. Oh noes. The law being followed. Whatever shall poor Anora do. 

A smart Warden would have simply lied and killed Loghain on the spot without telling Anora. A smarter one would have made Alistair do it, so you can wash your hands from it.

Couldn't agree more. My Wardens always lie to her and say they will spare her treacherous father and then just....."Off with his head"

[KnightofPhoenix]

This reminds me of people who hate Zevran for betraying them, because their Wardens made no effort to get close to him or made an extra effort to antagonize him (which begs the question as to why this Warden is stupid enough to recruit an assassin he / she has no intention of enticing).

Well the one to blame is not Zevran, it's the Warden for being an idiot.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This reminds me of people who hate Zevran for betraying them, because their Wardens made no effort to get close to him or made an extra effort to antagonize him (which begs the question as to why this Warden is stupid enough to recruit an assassin he / she has no intention of enticing).

Well the one to blame is not Zevran, it's the Warden for being an idiot.

Again I agree. Personally I hate Zevran (But that is for personally reason's to me). However when I play the game I try to role play it and see it from my Wardens point of view.  So far my Surana's (I only play that Origin) have kept him alive and befriended him. That = no betrayal.

[Jedimaster88]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This reminds me of people who hate Zevran for betraying them, because their Wardens made no effort to get close to him or made an extra effort to antagonize him (which begs the question as to why this Warden is stupid enough to recruit an assassin he / she has no intention of enticing).

Well the one to blame is not Zevran, it's the Warden for being an idiot.

I have to say that is an excellent point. If you want your companions to follow you and be loyal, its not a bad idea to please them sometimes and show them that you do appreciate their help.

I remember hearing this sometimes from the tv series tudors or whatever its name was. "is it better for a king to be feared or loved?" Maybe not the best saying to this but I think thats a good question.

For the warden I would ask: Is it better for the warden to be hated or liked? I prefer my warden to be liked.

[Ryzaki]

)

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
  FYI My warden didn't threaten to depose her. My warden was gonna support her but told her her murdering backstabbing father was gonna die for his crimes. Oh noes. The law being followed. Whatever shall poor Anora do. 

Don't you think it's kind of stupid to expose your intentions like that?

My Dain Aeducan (2nd Canon) told her he'd not only support her  but also spare Loghain, only to kill him and depose her (he had this planned long before). It's incomprehensible to me to complain when the Warden exposing him / herself acted like an idiot.

A smart Warden would have simply lied and killed Loghain on the spot without telling Anora. A smarter one would have made Alistair do it, so you can wash your hands from it.

How is telling her the truth acting like an idiot? I could see not being subtle but it doesn't make one an idiot. Just...blunt and truthful. And I love how hilariously blunt my femwaren was. It as a great playthrough. 

Not to mention one's warden can assume she and her father aren't all that close in the first place. It would be a wrong assumption but it doesn't make one an idiot. 

As for Zevran. Bleh. I don't bother sparing him. No reason too. Either that or my Wardens tell him to GTFO once they realize he's not the kind of person they'd get along with (while demanding their stuff so they can kll him for it. ) That said it's not idiotic to expect someone to follow their oath when they the warden has followed on their side of the deal. Zev's just a lying snake and I gladly slit his throat. <3 

Not being manipulative and cunning =/= being an idiot. Sorry to tell you KoP.  

Being an idiot is openly antagonizing Zevran than expecting him to follow his oath. 

Just not being friends with him? Nope doesn't make the warden an idiot. Just a bit naive to think someone like Zev would follow his oath. 

Naive =/= stupid

Even though they may result in similar actions. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2011 - 06:18 .

[RagingCyclone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
  FYI My warden didn't threaten to depose her. My warden was gonna support her but told her her murdering backstabbing father was gonna die for his crimes. Oh noes. The law being followed. Whatever shall poor Anora do. 

Don't you think it's kind of stupid to expose your intentions like that?

My Dain Aeducan (2nd Canon) told her he'd not only support her  but also spare Loghain, only to kill him and depose her (he had this planned long before). It's incomprehensible to me to complain when the Warden exposing him / herself acted like an idiot.

A smart Warden would have simply lied and killed Loghain on the spot without telling Anora. A smarter one would have made Alistair do it, so you can wash your hands from it.

Scary how we think alike on this. You can even mention to Alistair that the intention is to use Anora and then betray her. And for my Cousland character having Alistair kill Loghain was letting him get his chance at revenge like mine had with Howe. Deposing Anora was just the final straw to start Ferelden anew.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
  FYI My warden didn't threaten to depose her. My warden was gonna support her but told her her murdering backstabbing father was gonna die for his crimes. Oh noes. The law being followed. Whatever shall poor Anora do. 

Don't you think it's kind of stupid to expose your intentions like that?

My Dain Aeducan (2nd Canon) told her he'd not only support her  but also spare Loghain, only to kill him and depose her (he had this planned long before). It's incomprehensible to me to complain when the Warden exposing him / herself acted like an idiot.

A smart Warden would have simply lied and killed Loghain on the spot without telling Anora. A smarter one would have made Alistair do it, so you can wash your hands from it.

Not everybody thinks like a scheming politician.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...


Also bloodthirsty egomanaic? I suppose Anora is bloodthirsty and egomanical seeing as she calls for Alistair's execution for a similar reason.  FYI My warden didn't threaten to depose her. My warden was gonna support her but told her her murdering backstabbing father was gonna die for his crimes. Oh noes. The law being followed. Whatever shall poor Anora do. 

Yes. She totally should have agreed to you murdering her father. Murdering and backstabbing....uh huh....Yes, we will never agree on this.

[Persephone]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
  FYI My warden didn't threaten to depose her. My warden was gonna support her but told her her murdering backstabbing father was gonna die for his crimes. Oh noes. The law being followed. Whatever shall poor Anora do. 

A smart Warden would have simply lied and killed Loghain on the spot without telling Anora. A smarter one would have made Alistair do it, so you can wash your hands from it.

Couldn't agree more. My Wardens always lie to her and say they will spare her treacherous father and then just....."Off with his head"

Not funny at all, sorry.

I agree with KOP that it's brilliant scheming. But a daughter watching her father die like THAT is not amusing at all.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote..
Yes. She totally should have agreed to you murdering her father. Murdering and backstabbing....uh huh....Yes, we will never agree on this.

Agreeded with it? Nope. Never said she should've. Realized that if she wanted her throne she had no choice but to go along with it? Yeah I thought she was smart enough to see that. Was wrong apparently. Still is hilarious watching her get owned with the chorus of "I support the warden." and make herself look like a fool. Need her support indeed. 
  Not agree indeed. 

Also it's not murder. It's an execution. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2011 - 06:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Not funny at all, sorry.

I agree with KOP that it's brilliant scheming. But a daughter watching her father die like THAT is not amusing at all.

Oh, Persephone, while you're here, if I may reiterate a question of mine:
I am curious. The only Warden I have who killed Loghain is a city elf, so I'm basically on your side, but in your opinion is it more morally sound for Anora to execute Alistair than for Alistair to execute Loghain?
Of course, I prefer to have no one die.

[Ryzaki]

RagingCyclone wrote...
Scary how we think alike on this. You can even mention to Alistair that the intention is to use Anora and then betray her. And for my Cousland character having Alistair kill Loghain was letting him get his chance at revenge like mine had with Howe. Deposing Anora was just the final straw to start Ferelden anew.

My Queen Cousland wanted to do that. 
She even hardened Alistair because a normal Alistair doesn't see as willing to execute Anora afterwards. 

[theskymoves]

RagingCyclone wrote...

You can even mention to Alistair that the intention is to use Anora and then betray her.

Rage, help a girl out! I don't think I've never seen this dialogue! Where/how?

thanks and apologies for threadcr@pping yet again~
tsm

[ShimmeringDjinn]

Persephone wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
  FYI My warden didn't threaten to depose her. My warden was gonna support her but told her her murdering backstabbing father was gonna die for his crimes. Oh noes. The law being followed. Whatever shall poor Anora do. 

A smart Warden would have simply lied and killed Loghain on the spot without telling Anora. A smarter one would have made Alistair do it, so you can wash your hands from it.

Couldn't agree more. My Wardens always lie to her and say they will spare her treacherous father and then just....."Off with his head"

Not funny at all, sorry.

I agree with KOP that it's brilliant scheming. But a daughter watching her father die like THAT is not amusing at all.

I wasn't trying to be funny, I just like the emotion icon. It fit so well with my comment.

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 26 octobre 2011 - 06:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Not being manipulative and cunning =/= being an idiot. Sorry to tell you KoP. 

In a situation like this, for me it's the same thing.

[tklivory]

Man, I feel like this page suddenly turned into an argument of "WWMD?" (what would Machiavelli do?)

Aaaand we're back to relativistic philosophy. There are just lines some people won't cross. For example, Persephone will never condone killing Loghain for reasons she has stated elsewhere, and I totally honor and respect her for that. KoP, on the other hand, relies on the pragmatist/realist stance that, in this case, the ends (taking smooth control of Fereldan with minimal disruption) justify the means (lying to Anora and/or killing/exiling Loghain/Alistair). Neither is wrong in the absolute sense (since we're talking about a video game and roleplaying, not IRL) but each is wrong to the other in the relativistic sense.

That's why I love this stuff so much.

Modifié par tklivory, 26 octobre 2011 - 06:55 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I 

Ryzaki wrote...
Not being manipulative and cunning =/= being an idiot. Sorry to tell you KoP. 

In a situation like this, for me it's the same thing.

I'm an idiot KoP? 

[Ryzaki]

theskymoves wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

You can even mention to Alistair that the intention is to use Anora and then betray her.

Rage, help a girl out! I don't think I've never seen this dialogue! Where/how?

thanks and apologies for threadcr@pping yet again~
tsm

2nd my scheming warden could use this line. 

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This reminds me of people who hate Zevran for betraying them, because their Wardens made no effort to get close to him or made an extra effort to antagonize him (which begs the question as to why this Warden is stupid enough to recruit an assassin he / she has no intention of enticing).

Well the one to blame is not Zevran, it's the Warden for being an idiot.

Eh, no.

You spare an assassin and then you take him with you and perhaps you are even nice to him, just not enough to reach that 26+ approval threshold (remember, you don't need to reach hostile numbers to be betrayed, you can still be in the positive side under 26 points of approval and have him betray you).

Maybe you took him with you on missions that didn't yield any approval to him. His conversations (the first ones anyway), don't yield that much approval. It's easy to be nice to him in the first three or four convos and not even get 15 approval. Combine that with taking him only on missions where he doesn't gain any approval or what he gains is too little, and you end up with a scenario where a warden spared him, did not treat him badly, even made use of his talents, was nice to him, yet he still stabs you in the back.

Sorry, but you throw the idiot and stupid words too liberally. Pretty much anyone who doesn't think like you is an idiot in your eyes apparently.