10 réponses à ce sujet

[nynuwe]

(In know this is a very long post. But I really wanted to get this out of my chest. This is purely my opinion, and I mean no one any harm whatsoever with this. So I apologize in advance if this post seems to wordy and full of QQ. Constructive criticism is appreciated. If you wish to prove me wrong, I would ask that you only make your reply as reasonable as possible. I admit I don't like to be "wrong" in my assumptions, but I am still reasonable enough to consider opposite points of view, and re evaluate my own thoughts when the evidence is clear. With that said, I hope my writing doesn't give anyone any headaches. But that doesn't change the fact that this is still basically a RANT. You have been warned.)


I appreciate BioWare's efforts to create all societies within the Dragon Age universe have their pros and cons in a way to make them feel realistic. I know dragons and witches don't exist, but people do exist. Humans, elves, dwarves, and even kossith were made to have the same potential for  'humanity' as real life humans. Otherwise, we as players wouldn't be able to relate with the citizens of Thedas. Because what makes the world a 'fantasy' is the setting and magic, but the characterization of the people is kept real. And real people are not perfect. So their societies can't be perfect either.

BioWare made a good job making sure the Chantry-lead society had enough
flaws to never be considered perfect, even if they retconned one or two
of them. But the Qunari were designed in a way that left them perilously
walking the thin line between perfection and evil. A creation made up of two
extremes; where the numerous amounts of good traits were balanced with
the pathetically few, but large bad traits. But this design has a huge weakness. If one or two traits of the
same side of the spectrum were removed, the equation would become grossly
disbalanced. If one is ever to simply overlook those big but few flaws, the society would appear to be perfect. This is why so many fans declared the Qunari to be the perfect utopian society. Just ignore the gender biased aspect of the roles, and the cruel dishumanizing treatment of mages.

Unfortunately, it seems BioWare fell prey to corporate greed? With the recently released DLC, BioWare's stance on "Nothing is black or white" took a hit in the gut when it came to the design of the Qunari.

A famous iconic actress admired mostly by gamers- the type of people
BioWare caters to- takes interest in the game, becomes a fan, and goes
to meet the devs to talk about the game, more specifically about the Qunari. I can't blame
her. When I finished the game, I too had a gazillion questions about
these mysterious giants racing through my head. Actually, I think it's
safe to say that more than half the players who finished that game felt
the desire to know more about them. I don't think even a day passed
after release before the first inquisitive forum posts about the Qun
appeared. She wasn't any more sincere in her admiration of the game than
any other far-less-famous fan.

But how do you
go from a sincere fan's humble visit ... to a DLC starring that fan as the
protagonist? A female assassin spy working for the Qun? BioWare wasn't willing to retcon the lore on the Qunari
simply because a few fans were upset that it didn't fit their
black-white standards. BioWare didn't show any intentions of making the
Qun more palatable to our social moral code. BioWare made the Qunari so
that they would stand out from our perceptions of what is socially
acceptable, to be simply different. To take us away from our comfort
zone, and be compulsed to re evaluate our own social norms when we are
faced with such an alien culture.

And yet this very special fan comes in, and the lore of the Qunari is changed to be more socially palatable for us? A DLC and a web series is made in her honor, where she is the protagonist and hero. Tallis IS
Felicia Day. This is Felicia Day
pretending to live her own Dragon Age story. As if they had just given a
fanfiction writer money and resources to turn her little story into a
real live action series. This is basically Felicia's answer to  "What
would you be if you lived in the world of Dragon Age?" She would be a
kick ass elf, with the same loveable funny personality we all know her
for in the webseries 'The Guild' -Oh hey! What a coincidence!- Err, yes, back to what I was
saying, Felicia Day would be a kick ass elf with a great funny loveable
personality. And because Felicia Day loves those 8-ft tall, half naked,
buff, sexy, horned giants (I do not blame her for that either, I drool
over them kossith too), she's Qunari too.

I know the Ben -Hassrath accept women, but not for all of its
roles. They are enforcers, like a police, and Tallis was part of the
secret police. Police need investigators as well as enforcers, so this
made sense. Basically, if women were not allowed in the military because
a man will always be physically better built than a woman, then I can
safely assume that (while, yes, women of the police force were taught
how to defend themselves and physically stop a Qunari 'bad boi'), it
still made more sense if they were the ones given the
more intellect-dependent investigative roles. And leave the males to take on
the more physical skill-dependent enforcer tasks. Basically, in the
Ben-Hassrath, the women were the brains, and the men were the brans. But
that doesn't explain how she got a role that is more suited for a man.

The role of an assassin is a more physical based role. And women are not allowed outside of Seheron and Par Vollen. She is not the
arm of the Qun, as a female working under the Ariqun, she's definately
the 'heart' part. You don't bear your heart outside of its
protective shell. A man with just enough intellectual capability and the
more reliable physical capability would, from the Qunari's point of
view, be a more logical and reliable choice for that role.

So why would the Qunari choose a female for a role that requires her to leave Par Vollen and Seheron, and basically do a man's job?

Well, the only reason I can think of is...because she's Felicia Day.

Famous poster actress in your game = $$$

With the creation of Felicia Day's Dragon Age alter ego, a female elven Qunari assassin called Tallis, now apparently the Qun allows more leeway for women to take kick ass jobs that even allow them the same priviledges as male Qunari soldiers to work outside Qun-controlled lands. Or at least allows room for exceptions to be made. Which leaves the Qun with only one major flaw: The mistreatment of mages. Which, by the way, is not even clear cut out as "bad" for many fans out there, as, for instance, a continent-wide massacre of harmless, innocent, cute puppies and kittens. This is too weak
to be left standing by itself, as the only major flaw of the Qun, to
suceessfully counter balance all of the benefits and positive qualities
of that society/religion.

If the gender bias amongst the Qunari has become negligible now, then there is a gross disbalance in the creative design of the Qunari people.


Mark
of the Assassin looks more like a pure marketing ploy to me. Aa marketing ploy that seeks to
bring in more customers by using the image of a celebrity to sell their
products. I understand when retcons are done to improve the integrity of
a story, fix holes, take away loopholes, increase the quality of
characterization of races, people, cultures, societies, individual
characters, ect., and ease any existing confusion it may be causing
amongst the fan base. But this retcon does not achieve any practical
purpose. For what? To suit an
actress's whim? To make it more palatable for the very audiences they
told to "suck it up" if they didn't like the lack of black and white
design in everything people-related in the game?

Please BioWare may you consider not allowing any more celebrities to give you more "awesome ideas"? It's not healthy. Basically you let a fangirl with fame and money take advantage of a lore loophole ("Oh, you only mentioned that women do not leave Par Vollen and Seheron in general. You didn't say anything against possible exceptions."), for her own convenience, and put the quality and integrity of your stories at risk.

I'm open to hear  a reasonable explanation, besides corporate greed, that isn't some cheap, smarty pants loop hole in the lore that I would expect a 13-year-old to use for her Mary Sue fanfiction. If I were a Requiem, I would just close my eyes and be happy pretending it's not there. But I don't like fooling myself to my convenience. Facts are facts, even if I don't like them.

And this.... I don't like.

(PS: Seriously, if you have nothing better to write than insults, at least make it sound original and funny. Oh, make it rhyme too! And try not to use internet speak. It will make it look less dumb. ^_~)

[KJandrew]

I'm not really completely sure what you're complaining about. Has it not been said before that a women could become a soldier but then in the eyes of the Qunari she would no longer be a 'woman'.
Also Talis is her job title not her name.
Was it not also said that the Ben-Hassjkwnxnje people are under the command of the Ariqun? If i'm remembering correctly that would make them more likely to be a woman.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Qunari's issue isn't that women can't fight. It's that they can't be soldiers.

[Herr Uhl]

KJandrew wrote...

Was it not also said that the Ben-Hassjkwnxnje people are under the command of the Ariqun? If i'm remembering correctly that would make them more likely to be a woman.

The Ben-Hassrath are part of the priesthood, yes. And they have been mentioned as a rare exception to the rule before.

David Gaider wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...
Sure. I am not doubting servival instinct. Just the training in warfare you mentioned.

Right-- as I mentioned, a female qunari would not be trained in combat (unless they were Ben-Hassrath, I suppose, but that is a very separate role from a soldier and a qunari would not consider them the same thing -- a Ben-Hassrath does not fight, they enforce religious law). The qunari do not send women to fight, and would not even consider their presence as a consideration in their defense, but if pressed a female qunari will fight-- and be fairly good at it, considering the natural qunari build. Even so, it's a very male thing to do. Your average female qunari would find it distasteful, and if she didn't that would be very baffling to other qunari. "Why do you want to be male?"

http://social.biowar...94184/3#4397806

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 13 octobre 2011 - 11:52 .

[TobiTobsen]

What exactly makes being an assassin a job for males? We aren't talking about frontline service, we're talking about stealthy murder business. Women are capable of that just like any man and the Qunari don't seem to consider it the same way of fighting like the "living by the sword" their soldiers practice.

I really don't see the loophole you claim was just made for this DLC. BioWare told us before (David Gaider posted something about that topic) and tells us in MotA again that they have both genders of every race in the Ben-Hassrath, because people will react better if they work with people from their own race and gender while they get indoctrinated. Of course this would be also useful if you're an enforcer or assassin. An elven Tal Vashoth won't be so suspicious about another elf or maybe a human that approaches them. A dwarf or kossith that suddenly walks up to them? Well... that would be odd.

Edit: Ah... Herr Uhl provided the quote from David Gaider. Good.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:02 .

[WhiteKnyght]

nynuwe wrote...

But how do you
go from a sincere fan's humble visit ... to a DLC starring that fan as the
protagonist? A female assassin spy working for the Qun? BioWare wasn't willing to retcon the lore on the Qunari
simply because a few fans were upset that it didn't fit their
black-white standards. BioWare didn't show any intentions of making the
Qun more palatable to our social moral code. BioWare made the Qunari so
that they would stand out from our perceptions of what is socially
acceptable, to be simply different. To take us away from our comfort
zone, and be compulsed to re evaluate our own social norms when we are
faced with such an alien culture.

And yet this very special fan comes in, and the lore of the Qunari is changed to be more socially palatable for us? A DLC and a web series is made in her honor, where she is the protagonist and hero. Tallis IS
Felicia Day. This is Felicia Day
pretending to live her own Dragon Age story. As if they had just given a
fanfiction writer money and resources to turn her little story into a
real live action series. This is basically Felicia's answer to  "What
would you be if you lived in the world of Dragon Age?" She would be a
kick ass elf, with the same loveable funny personality we all know her
for in the webseries 'The Guild' -Oh hey! What a coincidence!- Err, yes, back to what I was
saying, Felicia Day would be a kick ass elf with a great funny loveable
personality. And because Felicia Day loves those 8-ft tall, half naked,
buff, sexy, horned giants (I do not blame her for that either, I drool
over them kossith too), she's Qunari too.

I know the Ben -Hassrath accept women, but not for all of its
roles. They are enforcers, like a police, and Tallis was part of the
secret police. Police need investigators as well as enforcers, so this
made sense. Basically, if women were not allowed in the military because
a man will always be physically better built than a woman, then I can
safely assume that (while, yes, women of the police force were taught
how to defend themselves and physically stop a Qunari 'bad boi'), it
still made more sense if they were the ones given the
more intellect-dependent investigative roles. And leave the males to take on
the more physical skill-dependent enforcer tasks. Basically, in the
Ben-Hassrath, the women were the brains, and the men were the brans. But
that doesn't explain how she got a role that is more suited for a man.

The role of an assassin is a more physical based role. And women are not allowed outside of Seheron and Par Vollen. She is not the
arm of the Qun, as a female working under the Ariqun, she's definately
the 'heart' part. You don't bear your heart outside of its
protective shell. A man with just enough intellectual capability and the
more reliable physical capability would, from the Qunari's point of
view, be a more logical and reliable choice for that role.

So why would the Qunari choose a female for a role that requires her to leave Par Vollen and Seheron, and basically do a man's job?

Well, the only reason I can think of is...because she's Felicia Day.

Famous poster actress in your game = $$$

With the creation of Felicia Day's Dragon Age alter ego, a female elven Qunari assassin called Tallis, now apparently the Qun allows more leeway for women to take kick ass jobs that even allow them the same priviledges as male Qunari soldiers to work outside Qun-controlled lands. Or at least allows room for exceptions to be made. Which leaves the Qun with only one major flaw: The mistreatment of mages. Which, by the way, is not even clear cut out as "bad" for many fans out there, as, for instance, a continent-wide massacre of harmless, innocent, cute puppies and kittens. This is too weak
to be left standing by itself, as the only major flaw of the Qun, to
suceessfully counter balance all of the benefits and positive qualities
of that society/religion.

If the gender bias amongst the Qunari has become negligible now, then there is a gross disbalance in the creative design of the Qunari people.


Mark
of the Assassin looks more like a pure marketing ploy to me. Aa marketing ploy that seeks to
bring in more customers by using the image of a celebrity to sell their
products. I understand when retcons are done to improve the integrity of
a story, fix holes, take away loopholes, increase the quality of
characterization of races, people, cultures, societies, individual
characters, ect., and ease any existing confusion it may be causing
amongst the fan base. But this retcon does not achieve any practical
purpose. For what? To suit an
actress's whim? To make it more palatable for the very audiences they
told to "suck it up" if they didn't like the lack of black and white
design in everything people-related in the game?

Please BioWare may you consider not allowing any more celebrities to give you more "awesome ideas"? It's not healthy. Basically you let a fangirl with fame and money take advantage of a lore loophole ("Oh, you only mentioned that women do not leave Par Vollen and Seheron in general. You didn't say anything against possible exceptions."), for her own convenience, and put the quality and integrity of your stories at risk.

I'm open to hear  a reasonable explanation, besides corporate greed, that isn't some cheap, smarty pants loop hole in the lore that I would expect a 13-year-old to use for her Mary Sue fanfiction. If I were a Requiem, I would just close my eyes and be happy pretending it's not there. But I don't like fooling myself to my convenience. Facts are facts, even if I don't like them.

And this.... I don't like.

(PS: Seriously, if you have nothing better to write than insults, at least make it sound original and funny. Oh, make it rhyme too! And try not to use internet speak. It will make it look less dumb. ^_~)

Well you also have to take into account that all of the information about the qunari's views on women came from Sten. The Arishok only brought it up once and was able to bend.

Perhaps different Qunari interepret the Qun differently. Sten could just be a sexist person. Avaraad panicked over seeing a Bas mage and attacked, yet the Arishok paid it no mind.

Tallis also could have been a viddethari(a convert) which explains why she has her own name and fighting skills. And it's been made clear by the writers that the Qunari don't waste resources and talent. So they likely do make some allowances.

[TheCreeper]

It makes sense, being an assassin is very different from being a rank and file soldier. Sten would stick out like a sore thumb trying to do what Tallis did.

Also I think Tallis is not actually her name but a title, like sten. and she directly stated she was a convert.

[TEWR]

What TobiTobsen and Herr Uhl said.

[Kwanzaabot]

There were no female samurai.

There were female ninja.

There you go.

[TheCreeper]

There actually was at least one female Samurai (named Tomoe Gozen) but yeah, your point is still pretty valid.

[TheJediSaint]

The Qun is nothing if not practical. It wastes nothing and tries to utilize every resource to its full potential. The that Tallis is an elf woman, and a convert to boot, she is therefore much better suited to the role of a spying and assassination within the Chantry lands than any native born Qunari, male or otherwise. When you think about that way, Tallis actually makes a lot of sense.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:26 .