18 réponses à ce sujet

[Luminus]

Eventually I want to replay the Baldur's Gate Trilogy with an evil character and the evil NPCs.
I have decided on two concepts: either a human Berserker dualing (preferably in BG1) to Cleric or a Half-Orc Fighter/Cleric.
Basically I want to be a Fighter/Cleric at some point.

Should I dual in BG1 before level 7?
Dual in BG2 at level 7/9/13?
Go multiclass with Half-Orc, miss Berserker bonuses and being a much better Cleric but be more balanced and get both Fighter and Cleric HLAs?

I'm leaning towards the multiclass but I want to hear some opinions.

I'll have Viconia in both games, by the way, so will have a high level Cleric anyway.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

If you dualclass before level 7, then you'll end up with 3/2 base APR, which is very little.

Clerics have very useful offensive buffs, but with only 1 base APR and no access to Belm or Kundane they can't make as much use of them as a FC can. 7/2 APR or GWW can turn strength 25 + max damage into a big, battle-deciding factor.

I'd go with the multiclass if I was you. If you feel like it, you can still add the kit to the build via Shadowkeeper or Lvl1NPCs.

[Yield]

you could use component 'multiclass grandmastery' from bg2 tweaks, if don't feel like cheating

[Luminus]

Thanks guys. I don't want to break the rules with Shadowkeeper or tweaks though.

If I go the dual-class way I think I'll dual at Level 9. Level 7 is not practical in BG1, earlier is not as worth it as you said, Level 13 would take probably too long to get my abilities back.

Multiclass is really nice in BG1 but in BG2, I might be a little underpowered compared to Korgan or Viconia or a dualed F/C for example. There's also the Holy Power spell. Is a multiclass F/C worth it in BG2 and ToB?

Modifié par Luminus, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:51 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

I suggested the multiclass with BG2 (and ToB) in mind, so yes, it's worth it. The power of warrior HLAs must not be underestimated for a cleric build. (at least the power of a few of them, the majority can be completely disregarded)

Korgan would probably lose against a properly played multiclass RC, FC, FD or similar.
A comparison with a singleclass cleric is a different matter, since you are actively sacrificing spell slots for melee power. If you feel you need a caster more than a front line fighter, then a dualclass (or even a single class cleric) is probably what you should be going for.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:28 .

[Gorthaur X]

I don't know if you consider true grandmastery to be breaking the rules, but if you don't, it should be noted that a dual-class F/C (into Cleric at 9) with grandmastery can have 3 APR with the chosen weapon, 4 with dual-wielding, and 8 with Improved Haste. Given the availability of combat buffs, that makes the primary benefit of multiclassing much less important - why spend your HLAs on 1-round GWWs, when you can have almost the same APR with a 20-round improved haste.

Critical Strike + Harm is nice though, and that's something you need a multi for.

Modifié par Gorthaur X, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:19 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

@Gorthaur X:
Multi FC ends up with 65% or even 85% physical resistance. Don't put that of as a a benign advantage.

They are also able to use the FoA+5 10 times per round. (while Improved Haste and FoA+5 cancel each other out unless you're exploiting bugs) Of course this isn't a major advantage as it only plays a role in the last stage of the game, but in total the multiclass will have more attacks per round from some point in SoA onwards. (once your fighter levels hit 13)

Multi FCs also get the Critical Strike-Harm combination. Not that you positively NEED Critical Strike, but it makes the attack that much more reliable.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 14 octobre 2011 - 03:26 .

[Gorthaur X]

Free Action only prevents Haste spells from taking effect, but doesn't dispel the extra APR if used on someone already impr. hasted, so you can switch weapons, haste yourself, and swith back to FoA (as I'm sure you know, but not everyone necessarily does). As such, the dual F/C can ultimately end up with 9 APR with true grandmastery and IH, whereas the multi only goes up to 8 (though without true grandmastery, that number is only 7 for the dual). I suppose this could be considered a bug, though apparently FA and Haste are not incompatible at all in PnP.

Good point about the physical resistance, of course, though it's another late game advantage, unless you're soloing or playing with a small party.  IMO, overall the dual would be stronger for most of BG2, the multi in BG1, and again in ToB once the dual begins to plateau.

Modifié par Gorthaur X, 15 octobre 2011 - 02:43 .

[AnonymousHero]

Gorthaur X wrote...

Free Action only prevents Haste spells from taking effect, but doesn't dispel the extra APR if used on someone already impr. hasted, so you can switch weapons, haste yourself, and swith back to FoA (as I'm sure you know, but not everyone necessarily does).

... which is what H_T referred to as "exploiting bugs"... which AFAICT is correct. This is the kind of engine behavior that's hard to imagine being anything other than a bug.

Gorthaur X wrote...
 though apparently FA and Haste are not incompatible at all in PnP.

Even in BG2, there are some items which provide FA-like powers (Arbane comes to mind), but don't prevent Haste, but they typically have some limitation to their FA power. For Arbane it's the lack of Web protection (at least in my games).

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Gorthaur X wrote...
 As such, the dual F/C can ultimately end up with 9 APR with true grandmastery and IH, whereas the multi only goes up to 8 (though without true grandmastery, that number is only 7 for the dual).

That'd be a level 13 dualclass I presume?
That's pretty late.

A multicass FC will only ever have 7 APR without GWW or mods. (2 for warrior level 13, + 1 for left hand + ½ for proficiency) x 2 for Improved Haste = 7

Good point about the physical resistance, of course, though it's another late game advantage, unless you're soloing or playing with a small party.  IMO, overall the dual would be stronger for most of BG2, the multi in BG1, and again in ToB once the dual begins to plateau.

Since I typically reach 3,5M XP in SoA even with a full party, the multi should have access to GWW and Hardiness before ToB (while your level 13 dualclass would still have to wait to get any HLAs). If the OP is going with the classic evil party (Korgan, Viconia, Edwin, [Jan]), then he can get XP even faster.

Free Action only prevents Haste spells from taking effect, but
doesn't dispel the extra APR if used on someone already impr. hasted, so
you can switch weapons, haste yourself, and swith back to FoA (as I'm
sure you know, but not everyone necessarily does). [...]
I suppose this could be considered a bug, though apparently FA and Haste are not incompatible at all in PnP.

I'm pretty sure it's a bug.

[Gorthaur X]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

That'd be a level 13 dualclass I presume?
That's pretty late.

I was staying with the level 9 dual assumption: 1 basic + 1/2 from F7 + 3/2 from true grandmastery + 1 from off hand + 1/2 from that one item I don't know if I should name on a non-spoiler forum = 4,5 APR. Dualing at 13 would, of course, bring it up to the full five, but like you said, it's a pretty late point to dual.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Okay.
Then you should also note that these numbers only hold true for the last few battles of the game (unless you do the last bits of Watchers Keep + some of the hardest battles of the game) earlier than that.

[amanasleep]

From 0 to 700,000 xp, multi is better.
From 700,000 to 3 mill xp, dual is better.
From 3 mill to 4.5 mill xp, they are about equal.
Above 4.5 mill xp, multi is better.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

amanasleep wrote...
From 0 to 700,000 xp, multi is better.
From 700,000 to 3 mill xp, dual is better.
From 3 mill to 4.5 mill xp, they are about equal.
Above 4.5 mill xp, multi is better.

IMO, vs most dualclass options (level wise), the multiclass gets better once they have more APR. (since level 13 dualclasses have the maximum attacks per round (bar GWW), this doesn't work with them).
That'd be 2,5M XP.
Once they reach 3M XP, they get access to warrior HLAs, so the multiclass automatically becomes a vastly superior warrior. (the better cleric is of course the dualclass at this point)

From 0 to X XP, the dualclass is a single class fighter.
From X to Y XP, the dualclass is a single class cleric.
Until Y XP, the multiclass is by default the better Fighter-Cleric.
For a level 7 dualclass, Y is 174K XP.
For a level 9 dualclass, Y is 700K XP. (this is likely why you referred to the multiclass as superior up to this point)
For a level 13 dualclass, Y is 2,6M XP. (so depending on their dualclassing accuracy they'd have all of 400K XP of "superiority" before the multiclass claims the title for good)

[ncknck]

The biggest problem is that almost everything is capped at level 20, so bringing a cleric to a level 324523 doesnt grant any significant advantage.

[amanasleep]

ncknck wrote...

The biggest problem is that almost everything is capped at level 20, so bringing a cleric to a level 324523 doesnt grant any significant advantage.

Very untrue for clerics.

Cleric thac0 caps at level 22.

Clerics gain holy symbol at Level 25, adding MR, Strength, and extra high level spells.

Spell progression is uncapped.  In particular, Level 7 slots keep increasing all the way to Level 38.

Dispel Magic effects are uncapped.

The major problem for high level Cleric singles and duals is the waste of HLA's after they pick up all the Quest spells.

[ncknck]

Not seeing anything very untrue here.

The major problem for high level Cleric singles and duals is the waste of HLA's after they pick up all the Quest spells.

Thats true for every class once Wish comes into gameplay. Just because a cleric cant select anything doesnt mean that a fighter will ever use more than a couple HLA before the entire party is refreshed, heh. Applies to spells too btw.

[amanasleep]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
IMO, vs most dualclass options (level wise), the multiclass gets better once they have more APR. (since level 13 dualclasses have the maximum attacks per round (bar GWW), this doesn't work with them).
That'd be 2,5M XP.
Once they reach 3M XP, they get access to warrior HLAs, so the multiclass automatically becomes a vastly superior warrior. (the better cleric is of course the dualclass at this point)

From 0 to X XP, the dualclass is a single class fighter.
From X to Y XP, the dualclass is a single class cleric.
Until Y XP, the multiclass is by default the better Fighter-Cleric.
For a level 7 dualclass, Y is 174K XP.
For a level 9 dualclass, Y is 700K XP. (this is likely why you referred to the multiclass as superior up to this point)
For a level 13 dualclass, Y is 2,6M XP. (so depending on their dualclassing accuracy they'd have all of 400K XP of "superiority" before the multiclass claims the title for good)

Yes, this points to why the Level 9 Dual is optimal for F->C.

Before HLA's a marginal extra half-attack that the multi might have is easily negated by the effect of extra cleric levels on the cleric self-buffs.  For example, at 2.5 mill, the buffed dual has Thac0 of 4 from Holy Power, verses 8 for the multi, plus max con and Dex buffs from DUHM and HP buffs from Holy Power and Righteous Magic.  The Dual also has Level 7 spells while the multi doesn't.  This effect is still fairly pronounced even after the first few HLA's are achieved, since the Dual gets to choose Energy Blades with 3 castings to compete with the multi which gets a regular WhirlWind attack as first pick (unless he opts for Critical Strike or Deathblow, which might be better choices early).

[amanasleep]

ncknck wrote...

Not seeing anything very untrue here.

The major problem for high level Cleric singles and duals is the waste of HLA's after they pick up all the Quest spells.

Thats true for every class once Wish comes into gameplay. Just because a cleric cant select anything doesnt mean that a fighter will ever use more than a couple HLA before the entire party is refreshed, heh. Applies to spells too btw.

Sure, but wish resting strats invalidate every other consideration of class, race, weapon load out, etc.  Wish resting is also not a reliable strategy unless you are also exploiting PI and Simulacrum.  Even then it takes a lot of micro to pull off, which not everybody wants to do.

Besides, the topic is whether multi or dual is better, not whether Arcane casters make every other class irrelevant at high levels.