703 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Come on 'Shorts, let's get into character.

I'll be the Templar, you be the Desire Demon.

[ThePasserby]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Simple. The Warden stopped the Blight, which outweighs all his other failures. Therefore, not ineffectual. Can't say the same for Hawke.

Your arguments are so arbitrary that arguing with them is pointless.  You'll just invent new standards and move the goalposts again.

ThePasserby wrote...

I'd like to quote Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder: "Hawke went full retard. Never go full retard."

That's just retarded. 

Not only does it miss the distinction his character was making between characters like Forrest Gump and I am Sam, it equates ineffectual with retarded, and those aren't even close to being in the same ballpark.  

Am I to argue based on YOUR goalposts? Which is basically "dramatic irony! so Hawke doesn't know what we know, so it;s ok for him to be dumb!"?

Warden - saved the Blight, averted Ferelden civil war - not a retard.

Hawke - Kirkwall burned, Chantry a rubble, mother a walking doll (temporarily), Corypheus loose, Qunari spies at large ...

Never go full retard.

Modifié par ThePasserby, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:37 .

[Anyroad2]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Come on 'Shorts, let's get into character.

I'll be the Templar, you be the Desire Demon.

I hear thats quite popular.

[HAM Hawke]

ThePasserby wrote...

HAM Hawke wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

You sound like you've not played Balder's Gate 2's expansion.

Good, because I havent.

That disqualifies you from deciding what is or is not possible with BW's games, doesn't it?

Oh wow..... I was wondering why this post was gaining so many hits.  ThePiss...er..um Passerby in here hating on Hawke agin I see....Why don't you start a "Hawke is so stupid I wish I never bought this game" thread so you can get your rocks off with people who actually care for your opinion....

Thanks for demonstrating your mental acquity, or lack thereof.

Hey nice an SAT word!  "Acquity"  I see you keep a Websters Thesaurus on hand great!  Now use it to beat yourself across the face.....

[ThePasserby]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

I disagree. Words have meaning, unless, of course, you wield them like a sledgehammer.

Words have meaning especially if you wield them like a sledgehammer.

If this is how you use words, I guess I can understand your "arguments" now.

If I can, I try to use words like a fencer.

[upsettingshorts]

ThePasserby wrote...

Am I to argue based on YOUR goalposts? Which is basically "dramatic irony! so Hawke doesn;t know what we know, so it;s ok for him to be dumb!"?

No it isn't.  

ThePasserby wrote...

Warden - saved the Blight, averted Ferelden civil war - not a retard.

I could absolutely play a game of DAO where the Warden is a trusting fool that only does what he is told.  I actually think Sylvius the Mad has a Warden like this, or at least one who is cripplingly indecisive and cowardly.

ThePasserby wrote...

Never go full retard.

So you're one of those "do as I say, not as a I do" people, then?

ThePasserby wrote...

If this is how you use words, I guess I can understand your "arguments" now.

If I can, I try to use words like a fencer..

It's funny because not only are you "keeping score," you think you're winning.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:41 .

[Morroian]

ThePasserby wrote...

Then Hawke's companions, who are clearly brighter than him, would have noticed the difference and slew him where he stood.

You mean the same companions who don't notice anything wrong with Larius or Janeka despite supposedly having greater knowledge than Hawke according to you.

Modifié par Morroian, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:41 .

[ThePasserby]

HAM Hawke wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

HAM Hawke wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

You sound like you've not played Balder's Gate 2's expansion.

Good, because I havent.

That disqualifies you from deciding what is or is not possible with BW's games, doesn't it?

Oh wow..... I was wondering why this post was gaining so many hits.  ThePiss...er..um Passerby in here hating on Hawke agin I see....Why don't you start a "Hawke is so stupid I wish I never bought this game" thread so you can get your rocks off with people who actually care for your opinion....

Thanks for demonstrating your mental acquity, or lack thereof.

Hey nice an SAT word!  "Acquity"  I see you keep a Websters Thesaurus on hand great!  Now use it to beat yourself across the face.....

Oh please. You might need a thesaurus, but please don't make the mistake of assuming others to be like you.

Modifié par ThePasserby, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:40 .

[ThePasserby]

Morroian wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Then Hawke's companions, who are clearly brighter than him, would have noticed the difference and slew him where he stood.

You mean the same companions who don't notice anything wrong with Larius or Janeka despite supposedly having greater knowledge according to you.

You got me. I guess they were handed the idiot ball too.

[AtreiyaN7]

ThePasserby wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Really? I don't find the character particularly inept. Ineptitude would imply being a complete failure at accomplishing one's tasks/goals. Hawke accomplished his/her goals.

Really? I guess Hawke's goal was to have his mother murdered and made a walking doll.

I suppose Hawke achieved his goal of escalating the mage-templar conflict too.

And Hawke set his sights on having the chantry blown up and having Kirkwall and other cities burn.

Hawke also set out to be an unwitting agent to free Corypheus.

And most of all, Hawke set his mind to have Tallis escape with the names of Qunari agents and do nothing to stop it.

Well, you've succeeded at one thing: ignoring the point that sometimes people are subjected to circumstances over which they have no control. I can just as easily throw "Did Hawke succeed in his goal of stopping the Arishok from taking over Kirkwall?" because he/she certainly managed to do that. And please don't be ridiculous in trying to say things like Hawke's goal was to have his/her mother murdered and turned into a zombie. That's a load of crap of course.

Hawke was investigating a series of murders over years, and eventually, due to rather unfortunate circumstances (Hawke's mother resembling Quentin's deceased wife in part), his mother got caught up in events as a victim of the serial killer. Did Hawke succeed in tracking the lunatic down? Yes, Hawke was successful at that - but he wasn't able to save her, and THAT failure was NOT the result of ineptitude or stupidity.

Not every hero is infallible. If you want an infallible hero, I don't know - why don't you write yourself a Mary Sue who saves everyone and everything, including puppies and kittesn, from all the evils in the world?

And you have succeeded at one thing too: missing the point. You said Hawke accomplishes his/her goals. So unless Hawke's goal is to have his mother murdered, he failed didn't he?

And talk about Mary Sue, sorry, Hawke can't be her, as Tallis has already taken up that role.

You purposely ignored the rest of my original post and the context of what I said. I was pointing out that  circumstances are sometimes out of our control and that the supposed "failures" indicated by the OP are NOT the result of Hawke's alleged ineptitude or incompetence. As for your nitpicking, if I'd said "Hawke completes all his/her quests (or goals if you will)," would that have made it all better? *snort*

As far as the rebellion and the escalation of mage-templar hostilities go, Hawke might have wanted to keep peace, but there was no "let's stop the Chantry from being blown up after we were betrayed by our friend" quest or a "let's mediate and keep Orsino and Meredith from starting WW III" quest. If there's a failure there, it's the writing that leaves us with no other options. However, we're dealing with a framed narrative in which certain events are fixed, and the story demanded that the rebellion takes place and that it unfolded in the way that it did. The events in Kirkwall are very important in shaping the future of Thedas. However, if you want to view Hawke not stopping the escalation of events as a failure, go right ahead, but it does not mean that he/she is incompetent or inept.

You're tailoring examples of "failures" to fit your biased view (similar to the OP's) of Hawke as being incompetent instead of analyzing them in a reasonably objective manner, but you go right ahead and do that. Gee, thanks for the reminder of why I avoid these forums like the plague most of the time.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:50 .

[Dave of Canada]

If the Warden had reached the top of Fort Drakon and was slain by the Archdemon and the Blight had spread, would he be "full retard" or the hero-that-failed? Game mechanics and story made sure the Warden would be successful, something which Hawke isn't because the plot was written that way.

Hawke can either support the events occurring around him/her or try and stop it. He's the hero which doesn't have things magically go his way all the time, he's probably one of the most down-to-earth protagonists because of it. Every choice he does only impacts the people around him because he doesn't have magnificent protagonist powers or the ability to always arrive at the last minute.

You either like that Hawke isn't a glorious hero or you don't, don't try to pretend the character is "full retard". Only time I'd say that occurs is at the end of MOTA.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:43 .

[TEWR]

Fauxnormal wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I wouldn't be bothered so much if my Hawke could *try* not to fail. (call out Larius on being possessed just for him to get away, try to get the scroll just for elf chick to run away).

But as it is. Meh.

Stop. Metagaming.

Just because YOU, the PLAYER, have the suspcion that Larius was possessed IN NO WAY means that Hawke had any way of knowing, proving, or even guessing at it. Yes, okay, so to make you supa-happy, the game could have given you the option to kill Larius.

But honestly? There's no in-game reason to do so unless you're a jerk. because, IN GAME, Hawke has no way to prove or know that Larius is possessed. None.

I can understand the issue of not being able to call out Larius. He was actually really lucid for much of the DLC prior to the battle with Corypheus with only a few instances of non-lucidness. Though if you play a paranoid angry Hawke who is just fed up with the place and would rather kill everyone associated it would make some sense to say he's possessed. Plus it would be funny.

But there's no excuse for letting Tallis go so easily if you're anti-Qunari. Hawke should at least try to get the scroll. There's a big difference between taking no action and taking action only to fail. Same outcome, but they're radically different.

[Morroian]

ThePasserby wrote...

If I can, I try to use words like a fencer.

Yet your method of debate is to raise strawman arguements.

[Anyroad2]

Its not even fun to argue this anymore because its just devolved into "Yes it is", "No it isnt" sort of deal.

We've all made our points over and over and theyre just ignored. Thats no fun.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:44 .

[Sunnie]

Chewin3 wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...
Again...overcomplicating it. Take what she says at face value and stop reading stuff into it.

Are you implying that I should instead just stand idle and wait for everything to fall into place in due time?

Sorry, but if you're gonna be stating something like that, I can't take this argument seriously.

You are going to think what you want. I think you (and quite a few others around here) like to read your own brand of the story or other game play elements into everything.  And like that, you are reading your own brand of disagreement into my comments and dismissing them because you have no real argument to rebut what I said. That's ok, I'll jusy file you away with the rest of that group for future reference!

[Shamajotsi]

Addai67 wrote...

Shamajotsi wrote...
So DA2 is not about a Superman who can install world peace everywhere and stop wars and disasters from happening. The way I see it, s/he is the unlucky fellow who happens to be in the most turbulent place in Thedas at the most turbulent time possible, but does whatever s/he can to play this dangerous game by his/her terms.

But she doesn't do everything she can.  That is the point.  At crucial, inexplicable moments, Hawke stands there with a vacant stare or a cute one-liner, and direct lines from those dip**** moments can be drawn to the disasters of Kirkwall and Thedas.

I don't know how many times people can explain this?  Tragedy is doing your best and either seeing no result from it or having unexpected consequences bite you in the ass.  Hawke's story is not tragic, unless it's a story about tragic stupidity and incompetence.

But, I acknowledge that Hawke's ineptitude is not the only thing that bothers me.  It's the combination of that with the cartoonish world and with being forced into narrow personality windows, none of which I liked, which makes Hawke's vacancy move from "annoying but can deal" to hating the character.

I can't see what Hawke could have done to stop the Arishok from losing patience. Call me stupid - although I would prefer "not genre-savvy enough" - but, although I knew Isabela kept secrets from me and although I knew she had troubles with the Qun before, I was genuinly surprised that she was the reason the Qunari to be so upset with the people in Kirkwall. Even if Hawke had divined that there was an artifact, because of which the Qunari have stayed in the city for a few years and it was stolen by Isabela (seriously, I don't know how s/he could have come up with such an explanation for everything that was happening), in order to prevent the crisis from happening, he would have to find Castillon. Good luck with that!

As for Anders, again, call me whatever you want, yet although in my first run of DA I knew for certain that Anders was brewing something very nasty, I could not even imagine that he would knowingly cause the slaughter of innocent mages! I mean, how often did he choose to put innocent mage's lives on the line? If my counting is correct, it should be 0 times, at most. So I could not imagine a dialogue in the lines of "Anders, I know what you are making is actually the well known recipie for blowing up Chantries!" that is not the result of metagaming.

Finally, if there was no dramatic music at the end of Legacy, I would have never suspected Janeca to be possessed or whatever. But again, it could be just me being very stupid.

Addai67 wrote...

Also, imagine an RPG that takes place in 1914. Would you think it should be possible to prevent WWI by simply stopping Gavrilo Princip in his attempt to kill Franz Ferdinand?

Then set a game in the aftermath, where someone might actually be able to do something meaningful.  DA2 was a whole wasted detour.  Let's have the mage-templar war in a codex entry.

So every game should boil down to "change the world" as opposed to the broader and giving way more possibilities "expirience this interactive story and make the decisions of this character your own"?

Addai67 wrote...

*snip*
...but Hawke should be able to be dissuaded by the player at the end, when he realizes that his actions were... extremely beneficial to the Qun?

I really don't understand your point here at all.  Do you mean we're supposed to believe Hawke is so baffled by Tallis' Mary Sue'ness that she just can't help herself?  Tell me you don't mean that. 

I'll try to explain in a better way.

By the time Hawke learns what the list of names really is, he already knows that whatever it was, Orlais would have used it against the Qun and it would have been devastating for the Qunari military (not only, though, and I believe that this was the reason for you to chose to help Tallis). Therefore you gave your consent in helping the Qunari military a great deal! So what difference does the knowledge of the true nature of your help make? Yes, it's spies. Yes, spies are dangerous and nasty. Yes, you did help the Qun at the end... which is what you have promised, which is what you have fought for. Near the end of MotA you are given the option to leave Tallis deal with this on her own - she would have failed (though this is for Bioware to decide, but I can't see her surviving the last battle on her own  ).

If I had taken the scroll from her and if she had asked me what made me change my decision, the only reply - as a player - that I could have given her would be "Lol, I chose to help you just so that I could get the final achievement and an extra playtime. However, I hate Qunari, so, yeah, give me the scroll or die".

The only reply that I could have given her, as Hawke though, would be... I dunno, please suggest one? I look at the whole possible situation as something like "Yeah, I promissed I will hurt myself, and I killed three wiverns for that purpose and almost caused a war between Kirkwall and Orlais, but now that I understand what you actually mean, I realise that this involves pain and I don't like pain".

[Drogothor]

There really is no arguing with Passerby's main point Hawke is ineffectual. A ton of bad stuff happens either because of Hawke or inspite of Hawke. That's actually pretty realistic in my view. I like a happy ending as much as the next guy -- insert massage parlor joke here -- but that doesn't really destroy the enjoyment of the game for me. Yes I would like Hawke to catch on and help put things right eventually. But everyone doesn't get to be perfect or the "hero" in real life either. Hawke is exceptional in comparison to his/her contemporaries -- it does not seem to be nearly enough to deal with the times s/he lives in...but hey, nobody's perfect.

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

If the Warden had reached the top of Fort Drakon and was slain by the Archdemon and the Blight had spread, would he be "full retard" or the hero-that-failed? Game mechanics and story made sure the Warden would be successful, something which Hawke isn't because the plot was written that way.

Hawke can either support the events occurring around him/her or try and stop it. He's the hero which doesn't have things magically go his way all the time, he's probably one of the most down-to-earth protagonists because of it. Every choice he does only impacts the people around him because he doesn't have magnificent protagonist powers or the ability to always arrive at the last minute.

You either like that Hawke isn't a glorious hero or you don't, don't try to pretend the character is "full retard". Only time I'd say that occurs is at the end of MOTA.

Agreed. I really don't like Hawke. That does't make Hawke retarded. Cullen and Elthina on the other hand. <_< I like epic hero stories. If I want to deal with someone who fails a lot and has tragedy there's plenty of manga/anime/books that can give me a far better experience then anything any game can offer. That's just me though. 

The reason I can't stand DA2 s because it was advertised as a far more "the hero suffers some loss but rises above it." instead of "the hero is buffetted by the winds of fate and tries to deal." if it wasadvertised as what it actually was I wouldn't have bought it in the first place and wouldn't have been so pissed. 

Though MoTA was Hawke being retarded. "I'm gonna kill you!" "No you aren't!" "Okay fine then." 

Just...what? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:49 .

[upsettingshorts]

Shamajotsi wrote...

So every game should boil down to "change the world" as opposed to the broader and giving way more possibilities "expirience this interactive story and make the decisions of this character your own"?

I was shocked by this too, there are a lot of people on the BSN who literally equate the quality of a game's story with the number of big plot flags they can set that at most change an epilogue card, and at worst are ignored entirely.

[TheJediSaint]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Its not even fun to argue this anymore because its just devolved into "Yes it is", "No it isnt" sort of deal.

We've all made our points over and over and theyre just ignored. Thats no fun.

Actually it's devolved from "Hawke Sux!/ No, Hawk Rox!", to "You suck! / No, You Suck More!".

[Wulfram]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The big consequences are the whole point of the story.  If Hawke could prevent the endgame, the entire fabric of Thedas is changed.  It would be like if the Warden could finish DAO without stopping the Blight.  It would be impossible for BioWare to even attempt to maintain continuity through something like that.

So we're back to "I just didn't like DA2's story that much."  Which is fine.  

You're not understanding me.  The point isn't that Hawke should have been able to stop the big consequences from happening, but that if those consequences are going to happen it's jarring if you're stopped from doing something obvious that might have stopped them. 

In those circumstance, if you don't want people to feel Hawke has been stupid or grossly negligent, you need to write the plot so that Hawke can either try and fail, or that the opportunity does not arise.

It's not so much that an unhappy ending is bad, but that it requires more careful writing.

I'd also say, though it wasn't my original point, that they could have allowed considerably more variation in the ending while preserving the essential part of the ending.  The Circle could have won a victory with Hawke's support, allowing the mages to flee.  Orsino or Meredith could have lived, depending on who you supported.  Anders could have been killed, imprisoned or persuaded not to act, and instead another mage carry out his plan

[Anyroad2]

Ryzaki wrote...

"I'm gonna kill you!" "No you aren't!" "Okay fine then." 

Just...what? 

That would have been hilarious if it were actual dialouge. XD

[Ryzaki]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

"I'm gonna kill you!" "No you aren't!" "Okay fine then." 

Just...what? 

That would have been hilarious if it were actual dialouge. XD

That mightve made the scene less rage inducing yeah. 

[ThePasserby]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Am I to argue based on YOUR goalposts? Which is basically "dramatic irony! so Hawke doesn;t know what we know, so it;s ok for him to be dumb!"?

No it isn't.  

I guess I'll take your word for it then! It definitely illuminates your arguments!

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Warden - saved the Blight, averted Ferelden civil war - not a retard.

I could absolutely play a game of DAO where the Warden is a trusting fool that only does what he is told.  I actually think Sylvius the Mad has a Warden like this, or at least one who is cripplingly indecisive and cowardly.

He'd still have saved the world from the Blight - so not a retard.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Never go full retard.

So you're one of those "do as I say, not as a I do" people, then?

And you're one of those pots calling kettles black then?

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

If this is how you use words, I guess I can understand your "arguments" now.

If I can, I try to use words like a fencer..

It's funny because not only are you "keeping score," you think you're winning.

You're assuming I'm here to "win". Is this how you approach forum postings? Trying to "win" arguments? I think I can place your posts in a better perspective now - your feeble attempts at insults are but mere grasping at straws to gain some semblence that you're "winning the internets".

[upsettingshorts]

Wulfram wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The big consequences are the whole point of the story.  If Hawke could prevent the endgame, the entire fabric of Thedas is changed.  It would be like if the Warden could finish DAO without stopping the Blight.  It would be impossible for BioWare to even attempt to maintain continuity through something like that.

So we're back to "I just didn't like DA2's story that much."  Which is fine.  

You're not understanding me.  The point isn't that Hawke should have been able to stop the big consequences from happening, but that if those consequences are going to happen it's jarring if you're stopped from doing something obvious that might have stopped them. 

In those circumstance, if you don't want people to feel Hawke has been stupid or grossly negligent, you need to write the plot so that Hawke can either try and fail, or that the opportunity does not arise.

It's not so much that an unhappy ending is bad, but that it requires more careful writing.

I'd also say, though it wasn't my original point, that they could have allowed considerably more variation in the ending while preserving the essential part of the ending.  The Circle could have won a victory with Hawke's support, allowing the mages to flee.  Orsino or Meredith could have lived, depending on who you supported.  Anders could have been killed, imprisoned or persuaded not to act, and instead another mage carry out his plan

Forgive me for condensing, but if your argument is "Act 3 ought to have been a lot better" then I agree with you.