703 réponses à ce sujet

[Anyroad2]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Its not even fun to argue this anymore because its just devolved into "Yes it is", "No it isnt" sort of deal.

We've all made our points over and over and theyre just ignored. Thats no fun.

Actually it's devolved from "Hawke Sux!/ No, Hawk Rox!", to "You suck! / No, You Suck More!".

Yeah. I knew it came to that once he told me that my viewpoint on things were worthless because I didn't play a decade old expansion to Boulders Gate 2 that he did. That apparently made me a "new fan", even though I've been playing Bioware games since KotOR. >_>

[ThePasserby]

Morroian wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

If I can, I try to use words like a fencer.

Yet your method of debate is to raise strawman arguements.

Like?

[HAM Hawke]

Sunnie22 wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...
Again...overcomplicating it. Take what she says at face value and stop reading stuff into it.

Are you implying that I should instead just stand idle and wait for everything to fall into place in due time?

Sorry, but if you're gonna be stating something like that, I can't take this argument seriously.

You are going to think what you want. I think you (and quite a few others around here) like to read your own brand of the story or other game play elements into everything.  And like that, you are reading your own brand of disagreement into my comments and dismissing them because you have no real argument to rebut what I said. That's ok, I'll jusy file you away with the rest of that group for future reference!

*tissssssssssssssssss*   Burn!!!

[upsettingshorts]

ThePasserby wrote...

I guess I'll take your word for it then! It definitely illuminates your arguments!

Other posters who don't have your agenda seem to get my argument just fine.

ThePasserby wrote...

He'd still have saved the world from the Blight - so not a retard.

You obviously aren't familiar with Sylvius.  If his characters would have failed in a situation he stops playing and starts a new game with a new character.

ThePasserby wrote...

And you're one of those pots calling kettles black then?

Don't see how that saying applies here, you're the one throwing around words you don't understand.

ThePasserby wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's funny because not only are you "keeping score," you think you're winning.

You're assuming I'm here to "win". Is this how you approach forum postings? Trying to "win" arguments? I think I can place your posts in a better perspective now - your feeble attempts at insults are but mere grasping at straws to gain some semblence that you're "winning the internets".

I'm just going to apply some bold here and see if anyone else wants to point out both the irony and my point flying over your head again.  Personally I think it speaks for itself.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:56 .

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

But she doesn't do everything she can.  That is the point.  At crucial, inexplicable moments, Hawke stands there with a vacant stare or a cute one-liner, and direct lines from those dip**** moments can be drawn to the disasters of Kirkwall and Thedas.

I find the fact people attribute this as something unique to Hawke weird.

Did none of you ever want to do something your Warden inexplicably could not do?  How about your Spirit Monk?  Or your Revan?  Or your Shepard?  I certainly have.  I mean, maybe the story in DAO only offered you choices you wanted to take and didn't withhold any you didn't, but that doesn't mean that's how it worked for everyone, or that it would be impossible for anyone to have played DA2 and experienced none of the disconnect this thread claims is self-evident.

Honestly- no.  I don't have a long gaming track record, but let's take the Courier, Shepard, and the Warden as examples.  Shepard does get massively screwed over time and again.  So, it's possible that by ME3 when she's back to working for *spoiler* after being screwed over by *spoiler* that she was railroaded into helping- yes, it's possible I could come to hate Shepard.  But at the end of the day, she'll have saved the galaxy, so I'm pretty sure she'll still rate as somewhat competent.

The Courier has major world-changing options, but that's a free-world game so let's take the Warden.  Yes, she gets railroaded, too, but gets to choose a few rulers and like Shepard, accomplishes something significant by the end of things.

Now I do understand that Hawke was apparently conceived to be "poor little Hawke," but she was also marketed as "the most important person in Thedas."  If what it turns out is that Hawke is the most important person because she's the biggest boob in Thedas history... that would be an enormous gotcha on the part of the devs, in which case I think you and they should understand why people aren't happy with the result.

[ThePasserby]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Yeah. I knew it came to that once he told me that my viewpoint on things were worthless because I didn't play a decade old expansion to Boulders Gate 2 that he did. That apparently made me a "new fan", even though I've been playing Bioware games since KotOR. >_>

You don't think that what Bioware has done in Balder's Gate has any bearing on a game touted as Balder's Gate's spiritual successor. Okaayyy ...

*gently backs away*

[TheCreeper]

The whole point of this story was that Hawke was at the center of it all when things went horribly wrong, Hawke's important in the end because s/he is the only one who might be able to reason with the Mages or the Templars. This is like blaming Shepard for not killing all of the reapers at the end of ME1, if Hawke somehow stopped the Mage-Templar conflict before it could begin there would be no reason for Cassandra to seek them out, thus ruining the entire set up. Hawke is suppose to be a human character, not some Mary Sue who can solve EVERY problem that comes their way and has Perfect Meta knowledge so they know what decisions to make to. Andraste's flaming granny panties some of you people just expect too much.

[Dave of Canada]

Hawke being "the most important person in Thedas" is due to the fact that nobody truly understands what happened at the Gallows in Act 3, most people think Hawke and his/her companions came into Kirkwall to spread anti-Chantry propaganda and involved him/herself with the Qunari resulting in the invasion.

Hell, they think Hawke is responsible for starting the Mage / Templar war too. Listen to what Cassandra says during each act, the entire story is about showing how Hawke isn't as grand as the stories of his/her exploits tend to be.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:59 .

[leggywillow]

ThePasserby wrote...
You're assuming I'm here to "win". Is this how you approach forum postings? Trying to "win" arguments? I think I can place your posts in a better perspective now - your feeble attempts at insults are but mere grasping at straws to gain some semblence that you're "winning the internets".

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do otherwise.  When people raise valid points about your argument, you twist their words or race on to a new point, which most forum-goers recognize as red flags for someone desperately trying to "win".

You are doing the verbal equivalent of setting up a boxing ring, allowing no one else to enter it, and then mocking them for not being able to go toe-to-toe with you.

[Xewaka]

Shamajotsi wrote...
So every game should boil down to "change the world" as opposed to the broader and giving way more possibilities "expirience this interactive story and make the decisions of this character your own"?

If you attempt to imply that Dragon Age 2 fitted the second template, I must disagree. The game, theoretically, intended to do that. The way those choices were presented via paraphrases gave so little information on the choice making process as to be effectively random.

[ThePasserby]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

I guess I'll take your word for it then! It definitely illuminates your arguments!

Other posters who don't have your agenda seem to get my argument just fine.

ThePasserby wrote...

He'd still have saved the world from the Blight - so not a retard.

You obviously aren't familiar with Sylvius.  If his characters would have failed in a situation he stops playing and starts a new game with a new character.

ThePasserby wrote...

And you're one of those pots calling kettles black then?

Don't see how that saying applies here, you're the one throwing around words you don't understand.

ThePasserby wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's funny because not only are you "keeping score," you think you're winning.

You're assuming I'm here to "win". Is this how you approach forum postings? Trying to "win" arguments? I think I can place your posts in a better perspective now - your feeble attempts at insults are but mere grasping at straws to gain some semblence that you're "winning the internets".

I'm just going to apply some bold here and see if anyone else wants to point out both the irony and my point flying over your head again.  Personally I think it speaks for itself.

No one brought up anything about keeping score. Oh, but you did!

No one brought up anything about winning anything. Oh but you did too!

So I guess winning in a forum is important to you, huh?

[Dave of Canada]

*Wrong thread *

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:03 .

[HAM Hawke]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hawke being "the most important person in Thedas" is due to the fact that nobody truly understands what happened at the Gallows in Act 3, most people think Hawke and his/her companions came into Kirkwall to spread anti-Chantry propaganda and involved him/herself with the Qunari resulting in the invasion.

Hell, they think Hawke is responsible for starting the Mage / Templar war too. Listen to what Cassandra says during each act, the entire story is about showing how Hawke isn't as grand as the stories of his/her exploits tend to be.

I think that ^^ is the whole point......

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Shamajotsi wrote...

So every game should boil down to "change the world" as opposed to the broader and giving way more possibilities "expirience this interactive story and make the decisions of this character your own"?

I was shocked by this too, there are a lot of people on the BSN who literally equate the quality of a game's story with the number of big plot flags they can set that at most change an epilogue card, and at worst are ignored entirely.

It's a reasonable expectation for a WRPG.  If I wanted to watch an interactive movie with dubious aesthetics, I'd play a JRPG.  If I wanted to do meaningless small circular quests with waves of identical enemies, I'd play an MMO.

Though as I said upthread, I don't need a big plot I can change as long as there is an atmosphere in which I can create my own stories through RP.  Since DA2 failed in that for me, the fact that it failed in the larger story is just that much harder to take.  I understand others experienced it differently.

[ThePasserby]

leggywillow wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...
You're assuming I'm here to "win". Is this how you approach forum postings? Trying to "win" arguments? I think I can place your posts in a better perspective now - your feeble attempts at insults are but mere grasping at straws to gain some semblence that you're "winning the internets".

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do otherwise.  When people raise valid points about your argument, you twist their words or race on to a new point, which most forum-goers recognize as red flags for someone desperately trying to "win".

You are doing the verbal equivalent of setting up a boxing ring, allowing no one else to enter it, and then mocking them for not being able to go toe-to-toe with you.

Care to show examples of me doing that? We're all trying to be convincing, right?

[Chewin]

Sunnie22 wrote...
You are going to think what you want. I think you (and quite a few others around here) like to read your own brand of the story or other game play elements into everything.  And like that, you are reading your own brand of disagreement into my comments and dismissing them because you have no real argument to rebut what I said. That's ok, I'll jusy file you away with the rest of that group for future reference!

Er, what?

You say that Tallis is on a personal mission for herself, trying to keep a lot of innocent people from being systematically slaughtered. I simply state that the people might not be that innocent and you start saying that I'm overcomplicating it? And say that I'm looking too much into it? And now you say that I'm I'm reading my "own brand of the story", which I don't see myself doing at all.

Modifié par Chewin3, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:04 .

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

Honestly- no.  I don't have a long gaming track record, but let's take the Courier, Shepard, and the Warden as examples.  Shepard does get massively screwed over time and again.  So, it's possible that by ME3 when she's back to working for *spoiler* after being screwed over by *spoiler* that she was railroaded into helping- yes, it's possible I could come to hate Shepard.  But at the end of the day, she'll have saved the galaxy, so I'm pretty sure she'll still rate as somewhat competent.

So success is the only measure of competence?  I'm not sure I follow.  

Addai67 wrote...

The Courier has major world-changing options, but that's a free-world game 

I'd actually specifically exclude avatars like the Courier from the discussion because games like New Vegas and Oblivion are more simulation based than story based.  In the sense that there isn't much of a narrative to undermine by a dramatic increase in player agency.

Addai67 wrote...

so let's take the Warden.  Yes, she gets railroaded, too, but gets to choose a few rulers and like
Shepard, accomplishes something significant by the end of things.

That's where I lose you.  I don't really understand how choosing the rulers can be considered significant.  I mean, an epilogue card changes.  And they're forced to pick between predetermined options - like, why cant a Human Noble make a case to be monarch in their own right?  Things like that frustrate me as much as the alleged ineffectiveness of Hawke.

Addai67 wrote...

Now I do understand that Hawke was apparently conceived to be "poor little Hawke," but she was also marketed as "the most important person in Thedas."

I firmly believe that its meta.  Why?  I'll explain:

DA2 was also advertised with the line, "WHO IS the champion of Kirkwall?"  The game, through Cassandra and Varric, presents this as a legitimate question and one the entire game is structured to answer.

Take a look at it from this perspective:  "Hawke is thought of as the most important person in Thedas, but who was he/she?"  And then the game reveals - and it is meant to be a reveal, based on the interrogation bookends and the frame narrative - you that he/she was just a relatively normal person who was caught up in the course of events.  That's not going to be a story everyone prefers to the hero who saves the world, but it's a perfectly valid one to tell.   It's about deconstructing that hero as someone who was flawed and sometimes impotent in the face of forces well beyond his ability to control.

Addai67 wrote...

If what it turns out is that Hawke is the most important person because she's the biggest boob in Thedas history... that would be an enormous gotcha on the part of the devs, in which case I think you and they should understand why people aren't happy with the result.

I'd concede that if you'd concede that a lot of people could read that same paragraph and say, "I think you and they should understand why a lot of people are happy with the result" for the reasons I went into in the above paragraph.

Is there anything wrong with portraying a popular hero who has been built up into something they weren't, and then breaking that legend down into the truth?  Is it simply a question of mismanaged expectations, or are such stories inherently less interesting to you?

Addai67 wrote...

It's a reasonable expectation for a WRPG.  If I wanted to watch an interactive movie with dubious aesthetics, I'd play a JRPG.  If I wanted to do meaningless small circular quests with waves of identical enemies, I'd play an MMO.

Neither of those are arguments I'd make.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:08 .

[Shamajotsi]

Xewaka wrote...

Shamajotsi wrote...
So every game should boil down to "change the world" as opposed to the broader and giving way more possibilities "expirience this interactive story and make the decisions of this character your own"?

If you attempt to imply that Dragon Age 2 fitted the second template, I must disagree. The game, theoretically, intended to do that. The way those choices were presented via paraphrases gave so little information on the choice making process as to be effectively random.

Whenever there was an important choice to be made - who's side you'll be on at the end, whether you will turn Isabela in to the Qunari, etc., even the not so important ones - it was perfectly clear what the choice was.

[TheJediSaint]

HAM Hawke wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hawke being "the most important person in Thedas" is due to the fact that nobody truly understands what happened at the Gallows in Act 3, most people think Hawke and his/her companions came into Kirkwall to spread anti-Chantry propaganda and involved him/herself with the Qunari resulting in the invasion.

Hell, they think Hawke is responsible for starting the Mage / Templar war too. Listen to what Cassandra says during each act, the entire story is about showing how Hawke isn't as grand as the stories of his/her exploits tend to be.

I think that ^^ is the whole point......

Points are like bullseyes, they're easy to miss.

[Wulfram]

Yes, it's entirely possible to do a good game without world changing decisions. But in that case, you need to make the story a personal one. DA2 isn't that - it's very much an epic world changing story, it's just an epic world changing story in which the protagonist, despite being constantly told that they're powerful and important, is almost entirely a passenger.

[Brockololly]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But there's no excuse for letting Tallis go so easily if you're anti-Qunari. Hawke should at least try to get the scroll. There's a big difference between taking no action and taking action only to fail. Same outcome, but they're radically different.

Even th option you have to kill her at the end has the paraphrase "Now you die" with the fighting/acion icon. And all Hawke does is say something menacing and act like she's getting ready to attack, meanwhile its like Tallis isn't even listening as she just gives Hawke the jewel like always and just walks away, not even reacting to the fact that Hawke just threatened to kill her. I mean, it doesn't even make sense- at all.

[Dhiro]

Xewaka wrote...

Shamajotsi wrote...
So every game should boil down to "change the world" as opposed to the broader and giving way more possibilities "expirience this interactive story and make the decisions of this character your own"?

If you attempt to imply that Dragon Age 2 fitted the second template, I must disagree. The game, theoretically, intended to do that. The way those choices were presented via paraphrases gave so little information on the choice making process as to be effectively random.

Never change, wakka wakka.

[upsettingshorts]

Wulfram wrote...

Yes, it's entirely possible to do a good game without world changing decisions. But in that case, you need to make the story a personal one. DA2 isn't that - it's very much an epic world changing story, it's just an epic world changing story in which the protagonist, despite being constantly told that they're powerful and important, is almost entirely a passenger.

It is a personal story, for reasons Dave of Canada and I have both just explained.  

You get to choose who Hawke is, not so much what he does or doesn't succeed in accomplishing. 

[ipgd]

I have been informed that I need to contribute a post about Metal Gear Solid and gay sex to this thread so here it is.

[upsettingshorts]

nm, not gonna open that can of worms

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:15 .