703 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

ThePasserby wrote...

It is still passing judgement on how others play, is it not?

Recognizing differences and identifying possible incompatibilities between those playstyles and specific games is a judgment in the sense I'm drawing conclusions, but not about whose playstyle is ultimately "better" overall, just that some styles fit some games better than others.  I would have thought this was self-evident.

And really, you're the only one actually disputing that premise.  Other people are debating the implications of my conclusions, which is far more productive.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 octobre 2011 - 11:33 .

[Xewaka]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
below the radar? He casts magic right in front of Cullen! And what's worse, Cullen has to rely on hearing rumors after that quest to begin to even think that Hawke or Bethany is a mage!

As Shorts pointed out earlier, gameplay-story segregation is a very evident flaw in Dragon Age 2. This is one of such circumstances, the reasoning being it'd simply be too inconvenient to the gameplay to force the player to hide magic casting in the game.

[TEWR]

Gameplay Story Disconnect, it's a lot like how In Origins you could make Wynne a blood mage even though she would never do that in a million years.

Not really. Templars are also supposed to be able to sense that a person is a mage. The Templar in Lothering does this to a mage Warden and Ser Otto is able to sense something very wrong with the Alienage that someone with the Templar spec can also point out. Whether Ser Otto recognized it due to heightened senses after he was blinded or because of his Templar abilities is unknown. Hell it could be both. But the point is that Templars are able to sense things that deal with the Fade.

[AtreiyaN7]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

I knew something was up when Leandra mentioned she had a lover, who often sent her flowers. And I didn't have more information than Hawke, as I saw everything about the case through his eyes, so it's not yet another "dramatic irony". So, once more, dumb Hawke, dead mum.

I don't remember her mentioning her suitor sent her flowers. I know Bodahn says she received flowers, but I don't think Leandra ever made mention of receiving flowers

Leandra did receive flowers, and I was suspicious after hearing about them in the game because of the earlier investigation where the Orlesian husband said his missing wife had received white lilies (lilies that you find out weren't from Jethann if you talk to him). I made the same connection about the flowers pretty quickly.

I suspect that it was meant to create a feeling of dread, as in a horror movie or mystery where you know who the killer is (or that someone is about to become a victim), but are helpless to stop it. Also, they may have wanted to combine that with making us feel like Sherlock Holmes (or any genius fictional detective of your choice).

Basically, to me at least, it seems like it was done to elicit specific emotional responses. While you can harp on the writing and the writers' choices in relation to the quest chain, I don't think it equates to Hawke being a flaming moron because he/she didn't make that immediate mental connection. After all, quite a few years pass between each phase of the serial-killer quest chain for Hawke (we, on the other hand, get through all that in a day at most in all likelihood - everything's fresh for us).

[TheCreeper]

Yeah where it not for Gamplay-story segregation, HAwke or bethany would have probably been found out before they could get hired by the Mercs/Smugglers.

[TEWR]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

I knew something was up when Leandra mentioned she had a lover, who often sent her flowers. And I didn't have more information than Hawke, as I saw everything about the case through his eyes, so it's not yet another "dramatic irony". So, once more, dumb Hawke, dead mum.

I don't remember her mentioning her suitor sent her flowers. I know Bodahn says she received flowers, but I don't think Leandra ever made mention of receiving flowers

Leandra did receive flowers, and I was suspicious after hearing about them in the game because of the earlier investigation where the Orlesian husband said his missing wife had received white lilies (lilies that you find out weren't from Jethann if you talk to him). I made the same connection about the flowers pretty quickly.

I suspect that it was meant to create a feeling of dread, as in a horror movie or mystery where you know who the killer is (or that someone is about to become a victim), but are helpless to stop it. Also, they may have wanted to combine that with making us feel like Sherlock Holmes (or any genius fictional detective of your choice).

Basically, to me at least, it seems like it was done to elicit specific emotional responses. While you can harp on the writing and the writers' choices in relation to the quest chain, I don't think it equates to Hawke being a flaming moron because he/she didn't make that immediate mental connection. After all, quite a few years pass between each phase of the serial-killer quest chain for Hawke (we, on the other hand, get through all that in a day at most in all likelihood - everything's fresh for us).

I know she does receive flowers. I just don't think Leandra ever mentions that she receives flowers. Only Bodahn does this.

[Stanley Woo]

Hey folks, let's cut down on the name-calling and personal attacks in this thread. I've gotten a few complaints about it today. Let's all please remember that we're all here to have fun, talk about games we love (or don't), and that we can, and should, disagree with each other without resorting to bickering or sniping. Thank you.

AtreiyaN7, ThePAsserby, Upsettingshorts - all of you, cut it out!

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 14 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .

[Nette]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Winter: Ella doesn't die as long as you stop Anders. You don't have to be diplo Hawke.

No, you do have to be a diplomatic Hawke. My snarky Hawkes and my aggressive Hawkes never had that option.

No, you just have to achieve friendship or rivalry with him for the star-option (that saves her) to appear. Choosing anything else kills her, and it doesn't matter if you're diplomatic, aggressive or humorous Hawke just as long as you have friendship or rivalry with him.

[AtreiyaN7]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

I knew something was up when Leandra mentioned she had a lover, who often sent her flowers. And I didn't have more information than Hawke, as I saw everything about the case through his eyes, so it's not yet another "dramatic irony". So, once more, dumb Hawke, dead mum.

I don't remember her mentioning her suitor sent her flowers. I know Bodahn says she received flowers, but I don't think Leandra ever made mention of receiving flowers

Leandra did receive flowers, and I was suspicious after hearing about them in the game because of the earlier investigation where the Orlesian husband said his missing wife had received white lilies (lilies that you find out weren't from Jethann if you talk to him). I made the same connection about the flowers pretty quickly.

I suspect that it was meant to create a feeling of dread, as in a horror movie or mystery where you know who the killer is (or that someone is about to become a victim), but are helpless to stop it. Also, they may have wanted to combine that with making us feel like Sherlock Holmes (or any genius fictional detective of your choice).

Basically, to me at least, it seems like it was done to elicit specific emotional responses. While you can harp on the writing and the writers' choices in relation to the quest chain, I don't think it equates to Hawke being a flaming moron because he/she didn't make that immediate mental connection. After all, quite a few years pass between each phase of the serial-killer quest chain for Hawke (we, on the other hand, get through all that in a day at most in all likelihood - everything's fresh for us).

I know she does receive flowers. I just don't think Leandra ever mentions that she receives flowers. Only Bodahn does this.

Yeah, I don't remember exactly who said it - but it did get mentioned, and I do think it was Bodahn. I vaguely remember talking to Leandra abou ther suitor, and I think she said something about it, but I'm not really sure. I'd have to replay that or look up a video.

[AlexXIV]

Hawke's biggest problem is that he succeeds where it doesn't help much and fails where it counts. I also have a hard time to see Hawke as a hero per se. Surely you can play him as such, but his personality is actually undefined. So basically if there is anything heroic about him then if you play him nice. If you play him a jerk his failing just makes him a bad joke.

Usually the classical hero that fails dies at the end. But Hawke survives, gets rewards etc. even if he failed big time. Heroic? Only if you have really low requirements for calling someone hero. I mean Hawke survives and kudos for that, but that makes him a survivor and not necessarily a hero. The only reason people even regard him a hero is Varric. With out his (probably mostly exaggerated) stories few people would even connect Hawke with either the idol or the last battle.

[upsettingshorts]

People in Thedas think Hawke is a hero or villain depending on their perspective, whether or not he/she actually is is more or less up to us.

Varric isn't the only reason everyone knows who Hawke is. Cassandra has a totally false idea of him that has nothing to do with Varric's stories until the interrogation, and it's literally her job to know these things.

So it can logically be concluded that he's pretty legendary in his own right, though perhaps - as we find out - for the wrong reasons.

[ThePasserby]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

For someone who claims to use words like a fencer, you're having a really hard time distinguishing between "you must play this way because I told you to" and "I believe your playstyle is negatively impacting your opinion of the game."

For someone who claims to fight for everyone's right to play how they
want, you love passing judgement on how other play, don't you?



And if they happen to play in a way that you don't approve, you say its their fault, right? I've seen you do just that.

He's giving his opinion that they're not enjoying it because of their particular approach to the game. He's not dictating to them how they should play.

It is still passing judgement on how others play, is it not?

He's doing this special thing that we adults do, it's called "having an opinion and expressing it." Surprisingly, and I know this must be shocking to you, adults have these "opinion" things about all kinds of topics ranging from politics to religion to, say, silly RPG games on even sillier online forums. Of course an opinion is a judgment:

o·pin·ion/əˈpinyən/Noun:A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.Do you have some sort of actual point? Because I'm not seeing one - wulf & shorts seem to be having a debate involving their respective opinions on the subject.

Ah ... the "we're adults and you're a child" putdown? I suppose this is what adults pass for maturity around here.

The key phrase is "passing judgement on someone"

It means forming not just an opinion, but an opinion of someone. This by itself is nothing objectionable. But when he says that he respects all playstyles and still passes judgement on how they play, using words like "it's your fault" the former rings hollow, doesn't it?

[AtreiyaN7]

@ThePasserby: hmm, I guess the Woo warning isn't enough for you. I'd take his advice and drop it, but I don't really care what phrasing shorts use - that's his business, and he was talking to someone else, not me, not you.

[ThePasserby]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

@ThePasserby: hmm, I guess the Woo warning isn't enough for you. I'd take his advice and drop it, but I don't really care what phrasing shorts use - that's his business, and he was talking to someone else, not me, not you.

Yes, precisely. You chose to defend him. I didn't drag you into this.

[upsettingshorts]

ThePasserby wrote...

It means forming not just an opinion, but an opinion of someone. This by itself is nothing objectionable. But when he says that he respects all playstyles and still passes judgement on how they play, using words like "it's your fault" the former rings hollow, doesn't it?

Actually all I'm talking about is this.  With a little of this.  They probably know that.  You don't.  Now you're caught up and we can drop the sniping, unless of course you want to continue provoking Woo until he locks your thread.  The choice is yours.  

[AlexXIV]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

People in Thedas think Hawke is a hero or villain depending on their perspective, whether or not he/she actually is is more or less up to us.

Varric isn't the only reason everyone knows who Hawke is. Cassandra has a totally false idea of him that has nothing to do with Varric's stories until the interrogation, and it's literally her job to know these things.

So it can logically be concluded that he's pretty legendary in his own right, though perhaps - as we find out - for the wrong reasons.

What the people think is one thing, the truth another. Many people think Loghain was a hero. Even after all that happened in DA:O. And honestly, Loghain was more of a hero than Hawke.

[upsettingshorts]

AlexXIV wrote...

What the people think is one thing, the truth another. Many people think Loghain was a hero. Even after all that happened in DA:O. And honestly, Loghain was more of a hero than Hawke.

Possibly.

But I'm not seeing the problem with this, as my earlier posts in the thread regarding deconstructing Hawke-the-myth have explained in detail.

[TheCreeper]

I was unaware causing a civil war in the middle of a blight and selling elves to tevinter slavers (among other things) was heroic.

[TEWR]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Hey folks, let's cut down on the name-calling and personal attacks in this thread. I've gotten a few complaints about it today. Let's all please remember that we're all here to have fun, talk about games we love (or don't), and that we can, and should, disagree with each other without resorting to bickering or sniping. Thank you.

AtreiyaN7, ThePAsserby, Upsettingshorts - all of you, cut it out!

OMG the Woo bolded the names! They're bolded! He's super serious! He's seriously serious! He's super seriously serious!




But yea, this discussion seems to have taken a turn for the worse. We've gone from "Hawke had the opportunity to do this but the game doesn't allow for him to try it" to "No, you're a cottonheaded ninnymuggins!". Let's insult Hawke and not each other, shall we?

[ThePasserby]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

It means forming not just an opinion, but an opinion of someone. This by itself is nothing objectionable. But when he says that he respects all playstyles and still passes judgement on how they play, using words like "it's your fault" the former rings hollow, doesn't it?

Actually all I'm talking about is this.  With a little of this.  They probably know that.  You don't.  Now you're caught up and we can drop the sniping, unless of course you want to continue provoking Woo until he locks your thread.  The choice is yours.  

Is questioning your claims also considered sniping now?

And this is not my thread.

And you still have not answered my questions. Linking posts do not count. It's fine if you don't wish to talk about it anymore.

As you said, the choice is yours.

[AtreiyaN7]

ThePasserby wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

@ThePasserby: hmm, I guess the Woo warning isn't enough for you. I'd take his advice and drop it, but I don't really care what phrasing shorts use - that's his business, and he was talking to someone else, not me, not you.

Yes, precisely. You chose to defend him. I didn't drag you into this.

Which means it's okay to inject yourself into their debate because...? I wasn't arguing with wulfram or getting involved in it, other than to defend shorts against your assertion that he was making some sort of flat, declarative statement that everyone else who plays differently is wrong. His phrasing might offend you, but that obviously wasn't what he was saying. Got an issue with other people defending their friends/acquaintances and/or not sharing your opinion? Not my problem.

[AlexXIV]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

What the people think is one thing, the truth another. Many people think Loghain was a hero. Even after all that happened in DA:O. And honestly, Loghain was more of a hero than Hawke.

Possibly.

But I'm not seeing the problem with this, as my earlier posts in the thread regarding deconstructing Hawke-the-myth have explained in detail.

Well I was more or less responding to the OP, didn't read the whole thread and I think I mostly only missed some fighting which doesn't really alter my opinion. I could honestly care less about the myth of Hawke. I as a player am not one to believe in myths since I am basically eyewitness. Unless the whole game was just one of Varric's stories he made up when he was really drunk. I don't care what people say about the Hero of Ferelden, because I know exactly what mine did and what not, I made the decisions after all. So what ever history says about our heroes does only matter to those that would care about stories. Facts still remain facts. Eyewitness usually just laugh about made up stories because they simply know better.

So the big question, who was the Champion of Kirkwall? The real answer a guy (or girl) who stumbled through events too big that he could ever have any control. He may or may not have saved or helped people on the way, saved some stray cats from trees as Morrigan would put it, but in the end he wasn't a big player in the game. He was just made a big player by people who did just have as little clue as Hawke himself. Because the puppeteers in this story are Meredith, Orsino and Anders. Not Hawke. Unlike the Hero of Ferelden who wasn't anyone's puppet. With the exception of maybe Flemeth/Morrigan, but that was mostly because they had the same goals. Stopping the blight.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 octobre 2011 - 12:32 .

[Nette]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Yeah, I don't remember exactly who said it - but it did get mentioned, and I do think it was Bodahn. I vaguely remember talking to Leandra abou ther suitor, and I think she said something about it, but I'm not really sure. I'd have to replay that or look up a video.

It's when Leandra tells Hawke that she's thinking about getting remarried. Hawke can say something like " it sounds like you have someone specific in mind" and Leandra answers something like "nothing I'm ready to reveal just yet". Bohdan is the one that brings up the flowers when Leandra has disappeared saying "maybe she's with her suitor, she recieved white lilys this morning" or something along those lines.

Modifié par Nette, 15 octobre 2011 - 12:32 .

[ThePasserby]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

@ThePasserby: hmm, I guess the Woo warning isn't enough for you. I'd take his advice and drop it, but I don't really care what phrasing shorts use - that's his business, and he was talking to someone else, not me, not you.

Yes, precisely. You chose to defend him. I didn't drag you into this.

Which means it's okay to inject yourself into their debate because...? I wasn't arguing with wulfram or getting involved in it, other than to defend shorts against your assertion that he was making some sort of flat, declarative statement that everyone else who plays differently is wrong. His phrasing might offend you, but that obviously wasn't what he was saying. Got an issue with other people defending their friends/acquaintances and/or not sharing your opinion? Not my problem.

Yes, you said it's not your problem, I heard you the first time.

[Taritu]

Anyroad2 wrote...
\\

Tallis is shown throughout MotA to be a very skilled, very quick and stealty assasin. Chances are if Hawke tried to take the scroll from her, shed either kill or cripple him, or escape. Taking physical action against her probably would have been pointless.

Uh, no.  That one fails completely.  I don't know about your Hawke, but my assassin duelist rogue is not going to lose a fight with Tallis, nor os my mage, or my warrior.  The one thing that Hawke is unquestionably good at, is killing things.  He or she is clearly one of the most dangerous people around.

Hawke my be ineffectual in certain respects, but he/she is so far from incompetent at combat that it isn't even in question.  As sarcastic Hawke said to someone about to attack her, "I made my reputation carving my way through Kirkwall, and you're going to attack me?"

Fighting Hawke is suicide.

That said, while I get what Bioware was trying to accomplish with Hawke "sometimes life sucks and no matter what you do can't make it better" it does get old, and it's not what was sold in the advertising campaign.  I didn't realize I was going to be playing a tragic hero, where everything she touched turned to crap.  A bit more balance would be nice.