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Hawke has to be one of the most ineffectual serious protagonists I've seen.


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#401
ThePasserby

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soccerchick wrote...

Hi folks.
I just spent 2 hours reading the entirety of the 16 pages of this particular forum.
And all I can say is...
WHAT. THE. F*CK.

http://tvtropes.org/...hewbaccaDefense

Ya see that link right there? Above this sentence? THAT'S what some of you are pulling. And guess what? YOU DON'T NEED TO. There have been perfectly made points above as to why Hawke is ineffectual or not, but some of you devoled into the "You're stupid!" "No, you are!" arguements! Holy crap...
/end rant

So, yeah, how 'bout that weather? Crazy, right?


I enjoyed myself in the mudpool. Glad you found all that entertaining! :lol:

#402
Shamajotsi

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Shamajotsi wrote...

Okay, serious question, what did you expect when Tallis told you "Lord Prosper has something which could be used against the Qun and which will have dire consequences for my people" - and you actually agreed to help? What was so serious that she resorted to the one who killed the Arishok, but wasn't as serious, as, say, the names of spies?


I think she explained that Hawke was the only one who had an invite who was not a personal friend of the Duke. 


she did. She also actually said Shamajotsi "The Duke has something which he has no right to possess" and doesn't reveal anything about what Salit was planning to do until much later, and even then she only gives the full scoop at the very end of the DLC.


She did say that, but she was always talking stuff like "It is not only going to harm the military cast of the Qun, but innocents as well", thus heavily implying that by helping her, you were not helping only innocent Qunary, but the military cast as well. By the time we got to fight the Duke, he was under the impression that he was going to get the secret of gunpowder and we did not have reason to expect anything less than that. Spies, gunpowder, the truth about the only weekness of Qunari, which is kryptonite - it is all the same, by the time we were there, we knew the scope of Tallis's intentions and Hawke's actions, should he try to intervene and help her. So if you want to be role-playing, maybe you should have to complain that you weren't given the option to ask Tallis in the underground retreat what this was all about and to tell her you weren't doing **** untill you know. However, once Hawke has been convinced to help the Qunary military forces and he's been convinced to do so, while risking his life and the life of two of his very good friends, I don't see reason for him to feel unconfortable about the fact that the scroll didn't have the secret of gunpowder or kryptonite.

#403
TEWR

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Sharn01 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

Taritu wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...


Tallis is shown throughout MotA to be a very skilled, very quick and stealty assasin. Chances are if Hawke tried to take the scroll from her, shed either kill or cripple him, or escape. Taking physical action against her probably would have been pointless.



Uh, no.  That one fails completely.  I don't know about your Hawke, but my assassin duelist rogue is not going to lose a fight with Tallis, nor os my mage, or my warrior.  The one thing that Hawke is unquestionably good at, is killing things.  He or she is clearly one of the most dangerous people around.


Yeah yeah. My Hawke is killer too, but I got the feeling that Tallis knows how to survive, probably more than anything else. I mean, shes an assasin for the strongest (or most feared) millitary force in Thedas, shes got to be tough  even if the gameplay didnt reflect that. Thats what I was talking about back when I made that post.

It would have been amazing if there was an option to try to take the scroll from Tallis (a cutscene, a mock 1v1 battle), but Bioware didnt do that. Its a shame.


I would not have had a problem with her escaping, I dont think she would have just killed Hawke though, killing is the one thing Hawke is better then eveyone at.  A big no to the Arishok battle also, I hated that duel more then any other part of the game, in regards to gameplay mechanic's.  The whole goal was to run away and attack when your abilities came off cooldown.

It wasnt a big deal for me since I walked away from Tallis on my kept playthrough and never learned what was on the scroll, even if you find out its a hell of a lot better then Merideth getting in your face telling you how she is going to go get her templars and attack and having Hawke just stand there and let her walk away instead of ending the whole fiasco right then and there.

My only big complaint in dialogue for Hawke with Tallis was when she was talking up how great the Qun was, sarcastic Hawke saying something to the effect of "Your right Tallis, the Qun tries to make a better life for everyone, having my tongue cut out, my mouth sewn shut and being led around on a leash by someone who has the authority to kill me on a whim sounds like a much better life then the one I have.", would have made my day.

The Qunari society is essentially communism, during their childhood, everyone,outside of mages, is assigned a task that they may or may not be best suited to do, and that is the only job they will ever do for the rest of their lives, and no matter how much or how little they contribute, they all have the same lifestyle.  Its probably pretty appealing to elves as they are oppressed to the point that its nearly impossible to get ahead in the world, but its a pretty bum deal for everyone else.  Anyone who is not willing to submit is killed or made into mindless slaves, unless they can manage to escape and flee elsewhere, so the way they enforce the Qun is pretty similer as well, the only major difference is they use religion to help enforce their political and social structure, which is a smart move on the part of whoever started the society.



fun fact: Mages can join the Ben-Hassrath, but they're watched very carefully.

#404
TEWR

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Foolsfolly wrote...

I doubt it too. But the simple fact that most people agree that somehow Cory possessed these people makes it obvious. I mean it is obvious. I can't tell you how Cory did it or if it's like an archdemon possession or a spirit possession (something about going to the Golden City could have made him partial Fade creatures now or some such unprecedented thing).


Again, it's obvious only to the player. The player sees Larius/Janeka stumbling around and the player sees his smirk. I'm not sure if Hawke would've been paying attention to that because... well.... how often do you kill a Magister and then look at their face to make sure they're not smiling?

Regardless of how or experience it's obvious that the guy was possessed. And anyone's complaint about just letting Hawke stand there ignorant is a rather valid complaint. After all it's not like Hawke had any idea that hitting a Profane with a sword would kill a living stone... but it's worth trying.

Hawke's either really stupid (which I don't get from Hawke) or the game forces Hawke to do nothing out of poor plotting.

I get the position BioWare was in. If they had you kill Cory then the Warden did something really really subtle then everyone would be up in arms when Cory shows up in DA3. People will be screaming that it's Leliana all over again.

But off the top of my head a simple accusation option wouldn't change the ending at all. You click that option, Cory smiles or says thank you and jumps over the railing. Hawke and company rush forward and we cut to Varric and Cassandra. Varric says something about how they searched the prison for the Warden/Cory but they couldn't find any trace of the thing. And eventually had to head back to Kirkwall.


Oh I wouldn't have minded having the option to call out Larius even further, trying to attack him, and then Larius sort of uses magic to send everyone flying with Hawke barely hanging on to the edge of the bridge. Then as Larius escapes he erects a barrier that doesn't disappear for a while.

But I'd only choose that option for my Hawkes who don't trust anything about that place and are really paranoid and fed up.

Or just have Hawke sit at his desk and write a letter to the Wardens and end with "You know.... Larius was acting really strange. I have my suspicions on why, but I ultimately don't know as much about Darkspawn and Wardens as you guys."

Then again, you have to wonder how the Wardens find out at all if:

A) Larius is the only Warden alive
B) neither sibling was made a Warden

Anders doesn't matter since he's abandoned contact with the Wardens save for rescue missions (whether rescuing Wardens or someone is being made into a Warden)


It ultimately changes nothing. Cory's still out there planning something. The player knows the Warden's possessed (which we know now anyway). The difference is that Hawke knows. That Hawke tried to stop Cory. ...maybe that where Hawke goes when they disappear after DA2. After seeing the fallout of finding the idol Hawke decides to hunt down another terrible ancient evil they unearthed on accident.

It's a small change that would have made the ending of the DLC a little better. As is it's not a bad DLC. I like it a lot. And I was a little peeved at the obvious Hawke-ness of the situation (powerless to do anything) it's not some unforgivable sin.

I'm largely talking because it's fun to do so. I think an accusation would have been an improvement but the thing wasn't completely broken before.

But I will say, if there's a third DLC I hope it has multiple endings. There's nothing wrong with a self-contained story with no massive impact on the future entries in the series. Where it just focuses on player choice and consequence within that story.

 
I agree that a little more player options would be great and that Bioware really limited themselves by thinking Hawke need be powerless for the story to move forward. Taking action only to fail is radically different from taking no action at all. Even if they lead to the same place, there are differences in what happened.

#405
Heimdall

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Foolsfolly wrote...

Also, I actually didn't think Larius' speech patterns were so obviously similar to Cory's.


Really? That freedom line doesn't sound exactly like something Cory would say? I mean that line's what sealed it for me the first time I played it. I was suspicious, cautious even... and then he said that last bit of dialogue and I said, "Goddamnit, he's still alive and I'm letting him go!"

  I noted the similarity, but it just didn't seem so blatant to me.  Nothing that needed to have jumped out at us or at Hawke, who had no reason to think Larius' changes weren't simply the removal of Cory's influence.

But has Hawke ever heard of anything that wasn't a Spirit (whether benign or demonic) possessing a body? I doubt it.


I doubt it too. But the simple fact that most people agree that somehow Cory possessed these people makes it obvious. I mean it is obvious. I can't tell you how Cory did it or if it's like an archdemon possession or a spirit possession (something about going to the Golden City could have made him partial Fade creatures now or some such unprecedented thing).

Regardless of how or experience it's obvious that the guy was possessed. And anyone's complaint about just letting Hawke stand there ignorant is a rather valid complaint. After all it's not like Hawke had any idea that hitting a Profane with a sword would kill a living stone... but it's worth trying.

Hawke's either really stupid (which I don't get from Hawke) or the game forces Hawke to do nothing out of poor plotting.

I get the position BioWare was in. If they had you kill Cory then the Warden did something really really subtle then everyone would be up in arms when Cory shows up in DA3. People will be screaming that it's Leliana all over again.

But off the top of my head a simple accusation option wouldn't change the ending at all. You click that option, Cory smiles or says thank you and jumps over the railing. Hawke and company rush forward and we cut to Varric and Cassandra. Varric says something about how they searched the prison for the Warden/Cory but they couldn't find any trace of the thing. And eventually had to head back to Kirkwall.

It ultimately changes nothing. Cory's still out there planning something. The player knows the Warden's possessed (which we know now anyway). The difference is that Hawke knows. That Hawke tried to stop Cory. ...maybe that where Hawke goes when they disappear after DA2. After seeing the fallout of finding the idol Hawke decides to hunt down another terrible ancient evil they unearthed on accident.

It's a small change that would have made the ending of the DLC a little better. As is it's not a bad DLC. I like it a lot. And I was a little peeved at the obvious Hawke-ness of the situation (powerless to do anything) it's not some unforgivable sin.

I'm largely talking because it's fun to do so. I think an accusation would have been an improvement but the thing wasn't completely broken before.

But I will say, if there's a third DLC I hope it has multiple endings. There's nothing wrong with a self-contained story with no massive impact on the future entries in the series. Where it just focuses on player choice and consequence within that story.

  I think your confusing obvious to us with obvious to Hawke.  We know the nature of the Warden's connection with darkspawn.  We know that there are creatures who aren't quite demons capable of possession.  We know that in all likelihood possession is the reason for Larius' change in behavior.  Hawke knows none of these things.  That would be player/character knowledge segregation.  The Wardens are extremely secretive about these sorts of things and Hawke doesn't even know Flemeth can possess people.

I agree on more varied endings for the next DLC though.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 15 octobre 2011 - 02:10 .


#406
lobi

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Snarky Hawk: gimme scroll
Tallis: nope
Snarky Hawk: Ok keep it, Here, I whipped up this in the castle kitchen, in case you get hungry on the way home. Enjoy!

#407
Tainan7509

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Wulfram wrote...

Lady_Aescwyn wrote...

I'm thinking that, come Dragon age 3, Hawke will take up the mantle of the Hero


Hawke isn't going to be the protagonist in DA3.


Hawke: Yeah. I know. Some important guy will take all the credits away from me in DA3 and i will be only one to be blamed. Thank you so much!!

#408
DrFumb1ezX

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ThePasserby wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

Hi folks.
I just spent 2 hours reading the entirety of the 16 pages of this particular forum.
And all I can say is...
WHAT. THE. F*CK.

http://tvtropes.org/...hewbaccaDefense

Ya see that link right there? Above this sentence? THAT'S what some of you are pulling. And guess what? YOU DON'T NEED TO. There have been perfectly made points above as to why Hawke is ineffectual or not, but some of you devoled into the "You're stupid!" "No, you are!" arguements! Holy crap...
/end rant

So, yeah, how 'bout that weather? Crazy, right?


I enjoyed myself in the mudpool. Glad you found all that entertaining! :lol:




Leave the mudpool out of this! It's reserved for catfights arguments about the weather. Of which this thread is not.
...
Yet.:D

#409
jamesp81

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jlb524 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
You do realize that they can't have us killing the badguy and saving the world in DA2 seeing how it's not the final installment in the series. 


They could have, if they wished.  DA:O wasn't the final installment and the Warden was tasked with saving the land from the Blight.  Hawke's story is done after DA2.  If they do another 'save the world' type story in DA3, it will be with a new protagonist.


jamesp81 wrote...
Hawke was a nice diversion from the the Wardens and the Shepards of the world. 


Yes and that is why some like Hawke more than the others.


jamesp81 wrote...
If BW knows what's good for their profit margin, however, they'll return to a Warden-like protagonist in the final game, whenever that is.  DAO sold better than DA2 and the protagonist is likely one of the reasons that happened.


So, another 'You are tasked to save the lands from X and you must gather allies/armies to do so....and then you win at the end!  Woooo hooo!' story?

Color me thrilled.


BW does this in many (most, almost all) of their games.  It is a successful template that has made them a fortune.  Why should they change a winning formula?

I'm not really sure what you're asking for, here.  Every story has already been told, writers just put new names and faces on the old ones.  There are no 'original' stories to be told.

Video games are different than books and movies because they're interactive.  Most people are not thrilled about the idea of playing through a 40 hour campaign only to have it all fall apart at the end.  People don't like that sort of thing.

#410
Stardusk78

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Good point

#411
yfullman

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Revan started a war which crippled the galaxy and nearly wiped out the jedi...

#412
Ryzaki

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Yeah but we played Revan when s/he was amnesiac and kicking ass.

Only person who rivals Revan's BAness is Shepard.

#413
Wulfram

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yfullman wrote...

Revan started a war which crippled the galaxy and nearly wiped out the jedi...


Well, that's certainly not ineffectual.

#414
DrFumb1ezX

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Wulfram wrote...

yfullman wrote...

Revan started a war which crippled the galaxy and nearly wiped out the jedi...


Well, that's certainly not ineffectual.


Depends on which perpecstive we are talking about here.
Causing? Then no, not ineffectual.
Preventing? Un pequito.:D

#415
KJandrew

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Seems like all of this argument could have been avoided i've they'd just had a small animation where Tallis kicks Hawke in the balls when he asks for the scrolls and then runs away.

#416
Ghidorah14

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Hawke is like the biggest tool in video game history or something. XD

#417
DrFumb1ezX

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KJandrew wrote...

Seems like all of this argument could have been avoided i've they'd just had a small animation where Tallis kicks Hawke in the balls when he asks for the scrolls and then runs away.


Tallis: RIP-OFF ARTIST! *kick in the balls*

Hawke: Sweet Andraste... *keels over*

That would have been funny...:D

#418
TobiTobsen

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soccerchick wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Seems like all of this argument could have been avoided i've they'd just had a small animation where Tallis kicks Hawke in the balls when he asks for the scrolls and then runs away.


Tallis: RIP-OFF ARTIST! *kick in the balls*

Hawke: Sweet Andraste... *keels over*

That would have been funny...:D


"Tell the world, that I was emasculated at Chateau Haine!"

#419
DrFumb1ezX

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TobiTobsen wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Seems like all of this argument could have been avoided i've they'd just had a small animation where Tallis kicks Hawke in the balls when he asks for the scrolls and then runs away.


Tallis: RIP-OFF ARTIST! *kick in the balls*

Hawke: Sweet Andraste... *keels over*

That would have been funny...:D


"Tell the world, that I was emasculated at Chateau Haine!"


Considering how many orleasians were there, I'm not all that surprised.....:innocent:

#420
WhiteKnyght

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b09boy wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

People are unfairly critical of the game and it's story.


Not really.  The story tries to be so many things without proper setup that it falls flat on its face.  People complain about the ending all they want, but the story was pretty screwed up from the opening narrative.

The failures of DA2's storytelling is almost artistically done.  It's incredible.


How so? That's how a narrative is. The person telling the story can only tell the parts he/she knows about. Hence why Varric told Cassandra he doesn't know why Hawke spared Tallis, because Hawke didn't tell him his exact reasoning. And it's up to the player to BE Varric's memory.

People complain about how their decisions don't really affect anything, but how different is it really from Origins? In Origins you always become a Grey Warden, Ostagar is always a fail, you always build an army, and you always slay the Archdemon. The 'choices' you make affect little more than the types of soldiers you call on, who you talk to in the end, and the ending CGs that tell what happens to everybody, which I might add doesn't have any major impact on anything itself.

Perhaps if DAII had an epilogue with a lot of tl;dr sentences nobody would be complaining. HA!

Also the writers didn't lie about Hawke. He/she is a Lothering refugee, does become Champion of Kirkwall, and does change the world. People are just complaining because they cant choose how. Which they never said you could do.

Also keep in mind this is a middle game. Not a beginning or an end. They cant have so many drastic differences because then they'd have to make two or three separate games for DAIII just to support all the data/graphics/dialogue it would create.

And it's been strongly implied by the writers that choices in DAII may seem small now, but in the future they'll make a big difference.

Plus the biggest thing of all, people seem to want too much from the devs and act like spoiled little kids because it wasn't enough for them.

#421
Cobra's_back

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ThePasserby wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

It is puzzling why some find it fun to play a protagonist as inept as Hawke.


My Hawke wasn't a bystander, he was a guy who tried and failed to maintain the peace and do what he thought was the right thing.

Would I want to play that character all the time?  Probably not.  But the fact is "the hero who saves the day" is 100% of other game protagonists, it was a nice change.


If you know that DA3 will be another "hero" as inconsequential as Hawke, will you buy and play it?



I wouldn't. There are plenty of other choices. I plan on checking what the players say about DA3. Not interested in another  inconsequential and not to bright hero.

#422
ThePasserby

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The Grey Nayr wrote...



Plus the biggest thing of all, people seem to want too much from the devs and act like spoiled little kids because it wasn't enough for them.


As opposed to being grateful to the devs for deigning to make a game we pay for?

#423
Cobra's_back

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The Grey Nayr wrote...

b09boy wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

People are unfairly critical of the game and it's story.


Not really.  The story tries to be so many things without proper setup that it falls flat on its face.  People complain about the ending all they want, but the story was pretty screwed up from the opening narrative.

The failures of DA2's storytelling is almost artistically done.  It's incredible.



Plus the biggest thing of all, people seem to want too much from the devs and act like spoiled little kids because it wasn't enough for them.



Being a Troll doesn't get you anywhere or change anything. So just relax and don’t get your blood pressure up. These are consumers with money and you don’t have to like what they say.Image IPB
 

#424
OMTING52601

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jamesp81 wrote...

BW does this in many (most, almost all) of their games.  It is a successful template that has made them a fortune.  Why should they change a winning formula?

I'm not really sure what you're asking for, here.  Every story has already been told, writers just put new names and faces on the old ones.  There are no 'original' stories to be told.

Video games are different than books and movies because they're interactive.  Most people are not thrilled about the idea of playing through a 40 hour campaign only to have it all fall apart at the end.  People don't like that sort of thing.


I don't know why, but you posting this just made me sick to my stomach for ME 3. Sorry, OT. Or maybe not...

I mean, look at Shep. He's a strong protagonist through two, soon to be three, Bioware games. Hell, even the Warden is a strong, somewhat proactive, protagonist in Origins. So what the hell happened with Hawke? He's constantly reacting, constantly fumbling for the ball - so to speak.

I apologize if I'm iterating a point that's already been made. And I'm not being snide, there is no emotional inflection to this question.

#425
Heimdall

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OMTING52601 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

BW does this in many (most, almost all) of their games.  It is a successful template that has made them a fortune.  Why should they change a winning formula?

I'm not really sure what you're asking for, here.  Every story has already been told, writers just put new names and faces on the old ones.  There are no 'original' stories to be told.

Video games are different than books and movies because they're interactive.  Most people are not thrilled about the idea of playing through a 40 hour campaign only to have it all fall apart at the end.  People don't like that sort of thing.


I don't know why, but you posting this just made me sick to my stomach for ME 3. Sorry, OT. Or maybe not...

I mean, look at Shep. He's a strong protagonist through two, soon to be three, Bioware games. Hell, even the Warden is a strong, somewhat proactive, protagonist in Origins. So what the hell happened with Hawke? He's constantly reacting, constantly fumbling for the ball - so to speak.

I apologize if I'm iterating a point that's already been made. And I'm not being snide, there is no emotional inflection to this question.

Hawke was the result of the story Bioware decided to tell.  Usually, as in the case of the Warden and Shepard, the story is about fixinga problem (Blight and Reapers).  In the case of Hawke, they wanted to tell the story of how the Mage/Templar war got started.  A story about everything going to hell necesitates the protagonist not being able to fix things beyond his control.  It's a much darker story, in truth, than Bioware has given us previously.