Modifié par DreGregoire, 17 octobre 2011 - 04:07 .
You think Aveline is going to stand for Hawke murdering a member of the chantry? Or Carver? Or Bethany, Or Sebs if we are talking about Act 2?AlexXIV wrote...
How would anyone know that Hawke did it? There is only Petrice and her bodyguard. I am not for killing everyone or being able to, but in situations the person basically asks for a beating it makes sense to be able to use violence.TheCreeper wrote...
Petrice is a freaking sister in the chantry, until the end (shortly before she gets killed by that qunari) there isn't exactly enough evidence to get her disbarred and however extreme she maybe the results of killing a Revered Mother would be massive and horrible. She doesn't have to black mail hawke because as a member of the chantry she is pretty much untouchable. Hawke isn't like commander shepard or The Grey Warden, they don't have an sort of job title that allows them to get away with just about anything.
I'm sorry but most of the "Hawke should be able to murder these people before things get out of hand" Complaints really don't seem to think through what the consquences would be and how much they just wouldn't work in the game. It's kinda hard to become champion of a city after murdering a Priest.
Maybe not, they could have said something. That would actually have been far better if a companion would have stopped Hawke. But that's not what happens in the game.TheCreeper wrote...
You think Aveline is going to stand for Hawke murdering a member of the chantry? Or Carver? Or Bethany, Or Sebs if we are talking about Act 2?AlexXIV wrote...
How would anyone know that Hawke did it? There is only Petrice and her bodyguard. I am not for killing everyone or being able to, but in situations the person basically asks for a beating it makes sense to be able to use violence.TheCreeper wrote...
Petrice is a freaking sister in the chantry, until the end (shortly before she gets killed by that qunari) there isn't exactly enough evidence to get her disbarred and however extreme she maybe the results of killing a Revered Mother would be massive and horrible. She doesn't have to black mail hawke because as a member of the chantry she is pretty much untouchable. Hawke isn't like commander shepard or The Grey Warden, they don't have an sort of job title that allows them to get away with just about anything.
I'm sorry but most of the "Hawke should be able to murder these people before things get out of hand" Complaints really don't seem to think through what the consquences would be and how much they just wouldn't work in the game. It's kinda hard to become champion of a city after murdering a Priest.
TheCreeper wrote...
You think Aveline is going to stand for Hawke murdering a member of the chantry? Or Carver? Or Bethany, Or Sebs if we are talking about Act 2?AlexXIV wrote...
How would anyone know that Hawke did it? There is only Petrice and her bodyguard. I am not for killing everyone or being able to, but in situations the person basically asks for a beating it makes sense to be able to use violence.TheCreeper wrote...
Petrice is a freaking sister in the chantry, until the end (shortly before she gets killed by that qunari) there isn't exactly enough evidence to get her disbarred and however extreme she maybe the results of killing a Revered Mother would be massive and horrible. She doesn't have to black mail hawke because as a member of the chantry she is pretty much untouchable. Hawke isn't like commander shepard or The Grey Warden, they don't have an sort of job title that allows them to get away with just about anything.
I'm sorry but most of the "Hawke should be able to murder these people before things get out of hand" Complaints really don't seem to think through what the consquences would be and how much they just wouldn't work in the game. It's kinda hard to become champion of a city after murdering a Priest.
TheCreeper wrote...
You think Aveline is going to stand for Hawke murdering a member of the chantry? Or Carver? Or Bethany, Or Sebs if we are talking about Act 2?AlexXIV wrote...
How would anyone know that Hawke did it? There is only Petrice and her bodyguard. I am not for killing everyone or being able to, but in situations the person basically asks for a beating it makes sense to be able to use violence.TheCreeper wrote...
Petrice is a freaking sister in the chantry, until the end (shortly before she gets killed by that qunari) there isn't exactly enough evidence to get her disbarred and however extreme she maybe the results of killing a Revered Mother would be massive and horrible. She doesn't have to black mail hawke because as a member of the chantry she is pretty much untouchable. Hawke isn't like commander shepard or The Grey Warden, they don't have an sort of job title that allows them to get away with just about anything.
I'm sorry but most of the "Hawke should be able to murder these people before things get out of hand" Complaints really don't seem to think through what the consquences would be and how much they just wouldn't work in the game. It's kinda hard to become champion of a city after murdering a Priest.
Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 17 octobre 2011 - 04:24 .
Agnol117 wrote...
The Grey Nayr wrote...
What has Hawke actually failed at?
The issue here is becoming a bit muddled. It's not so much that Hawke fails as it is that she fails to act in situations where action would be reasonable.
For instance, take Anders' personal quest in Act III. Everyone notices that Anders is acting different, and while I'm not going to assume that Thedas has the same type knowledge of psychology as we do, a change that drastic (keeping in mind that as a result of his personal quest in Act II, he actually gave up the cause for a few years) requires some sort of trigger. Similarly, people (Cullen, Meredith) know that Anders is both an apostate and a radical separatist. The idea that Hawke cannot do anything to warn them is ridiculous. On top of that, such an event wouldn't even have to change the plot: Anders could simply set off the bomb when the Templars came for him, and the results would be the same. The only difference would be that Hawke would have actually done something.I don't know where you got it in your head that Hawke was a failure because he accomplished what he wanted to do. And I don't know where you got it that Hawke is supposed to be a 'proactive' character and that the only way he can change the world is by being some revolutionary like you think the warden was.
Hawke is a survivor, thats what he's always been portrayed as. He does what he can to get by and thats his main concern. Nobody ever said he changes the world because he wants to.
Hawke doesn't have to be a world changing revolutionary to be a proactive protagonist, nor does the "normal person trying to cope with things way beyond their control and getting overwhelmed" theme require a reactive protagonist. They could have kept that theme and made Hawke proactive. In fact, that would have better supported the theme, because then Hawke being overwhelmed by everything would actually mean something.
Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 17 octobre 2011 - 04:48 .
TheCreeper wrote...
You people don't seem to understand just how serious killing a member of the chantry would be for most people, even a member of the chantry who is clearly being an agitator.
Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 17 octobre 2011 - 04:37 .
Anders, The lady wasn't anti-mage (her only statement on mages was pro mage if anything) And the Templar never does anything templar-ish so maybe. I am not sure about the others because it's not like she said she was going to keep trying to kill hawke ,really I don't think you can kill her because it's clear she isn't going to try to kill hawke again and it's not like she specfically wanted hawke dead so sbe isn't a threat. So again it's killing a member of the chantry after she had stop being a threat to hawke (In that act.)Killjoy Cutter wrote...
TheCreeper wrote...
You people don't seem to understand just how serious killing a member of the chantry would be for most people, even a member of the chantry who is clearly being an agitator.
You think Merrill, Fenris, Varric, Anders, or Isabella would care all that much?
maxernst wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The problem with Petrice is that the player isn't given a solid enough reason for being unable to kill her. I posted on one of the last few pages that she should've blackmailed Hawke by saying that her death would cause the Faithful to reveal to the Templars that he is mage/Bethany is a mage.
As for Meredith, if someone takes over a city illegally, I'd sure as hell be working to undermine her authority.
That would deal with not being able to kill her adquately, but my problem with Petrice was that I couldn't see any reason for my Hawke to do her quests at all. I had enough gold already for the Deep Roads expedition in Act 1, and in Act 2, I wanted to talk to Elthina damn it, not walk into an ambush.
I really think they would have been better writing Hawke's story as a novel to set up the mage/templar war.
A Chantry sister who's trying to instigate a war in the city and who also tried to get your party killed?TheCreeper wrote...
You think Aveline is going to stand for Hawke murdering a member of the chantry? Or Carver? Or Bethany, Or Sebs if we are talking about Act 2?
TheCreeper wrote...
How was Hawke suppose to anything about Petrice and Meredith before hand? You can't kill members of the Chantry and the leader of the Templars willy nilly without it causing things to go horrible horrible wrong for you, it's why you didn't have the option to brutally stab Loghain when you first encounter him in Denerim before the landsmeet.
TheCreeper wrote...
Hell with Meredith you can't even work that strongely against her because she rules the city with an iron fist and would either put you or your mage friends in the circle if you get too upity, killing her would probably get an exalted march declared on kirkwall.
TheCreeper wrote...
And Stuff like Grace murdering Ser Thrask happened in DA:O, and even mass effect, the only way to really stop things like that is if you had some sort of interrupt button that worked all the time.
LobselVith8 wrote...
TheCreeper wrote...
How was Hawke suppose to anything about Petrice and Meredith before hand? You can't kill members of the Chantry and the leader of the Templars willy nilly without it causing things to go horrible horrible wrong for you, it's why you didn't have the option to brutally stab Loghain when you first encounter him in Denerim before the landsmeet.
That argument works for why Hawke can't kill Meredith in Acts I and II, not with Sister Petrice who is standing in a hovel with one, single templar at her side. Petrice tried to have Hawke killed, and she is trying to start a conflict that will involve the deaths of innocent people. Hawke could kill Petrice because he wants revenge, or because he wants to save lives, since Petrice wants to start a conflict between Andrastians and the Qunari.
I don't see a reason for my apostate Hawke not to kill Petrice in "Shepherding Wolves." I'm not suggesting that Hawke should have pulled a Neo and killed every templar in the Gallows in order to get to Meredith through the magic of bullet time, I'm addressing that Hawke didn't kill a woman in a hovel who he knows is trying to start a religious war, when no one would have known that Hawke killed Sister Petrice and Ser Varnell.
The fact that Hawke is railroaded by the Plot to complete her quest - even if he explicitly refuses - is an example of character and the flow of the narrative taking a seat to the demands of the game.TheCreeper wrote...
Hell with Meredith you can't even work that strongely against her because she rules the city with an iron fist and would either put you or your mage friends in the circle if you get too upity, killing her would probably get an exalted march declared on kirkwall.
I didn't recommend that Hawke should have killed Meredith, I addressed that Hawke didn't oppose Meredith's dictatorship despite becoming the Champion of Kirkwall. Apparently, whether he's pro-templar or pro-mage, Hawke doesn't seem to have done anything for three years during Meredith's reign as the de facto Viscount. It takes a chance encounter with the First Enchanter for anyone to discover how Hawke views the situation, which makes Hawke look lazy. I think it would've been better to have addressed it as though Hawke had been supporting Meredith's measures, or opposing them, for the last three years of her reign, instead of doing nothing as a wealthy and famous noble.TheCreeper wrote...
And Stuff like Grace murdering Ser Thrask happened in DA:O, and even mass effect, the only way to really stop things like that is if you had some sort of interrupt button that worked all the time.
Having the protagonist stand by and do nothing makes him look like an imbecile when Grace is threatening to kill someone he loves (who happens to be a few feet away from Grace) and while she attacks and murders Ser Thrask while Hawke and his moiety crew do nothing about it. I see this as a problem. Addressing that it's a recurring flaw in some games doesn't change the fact that it's a flaw.
Mr.House wrote...
By this logic then Izzy, Varric, Betrand, Jeneka and Tallis can also be blamed.
Modifié par Huntress, 17 octobre 2011 - 06:05 .
Killjoy Cutter wrote...
No matter what you do, Grace hates Hawke, and you have no chance to clear up her belief that Hawke betrayed her. And then you're cutscene-railroaded into waiting and watching and listening to Grace blather on, and then kill Thrask.
That's not Hawke, that's the damn game. It's the player that's powerless all too often.
Ghidorah14 wrote...
Killjoy Cutter wrote...
No matter what you do, Grace hates Hawke, and you have no chance to clear up her belief that Hawke betrayed her. And then you're cutscene-railroaded into waiting and watching and listening to Grace blather on, and then kill Thrask.
That's not Hawke, that's the damn game. It's the player that's powerless all too often.
Ya know, when you think about it, the missions involving Grace and the Starkhaven mages are probably the best examples of the lack or choice, or powerlessness people talk about when they say "you choices dont matter."
Hear me out on this.
In Act of Mercy, Thrask asks you to get the escaped mages to peacefully surrender. But you soon learn that they're not only practicing blood magic, but they're being lead my Decimus, who is so paranoid that he attacks you on sight. Once all is said and done, you can either let the obvious blood mages go free, or turn them in. The outcome can vary, but the consequences of your actions will always be the same in the following acts.
In Act 2, regardless of whether you set them free or turned them in. Grace and the others will ALWAYS be back in the Gallows. If you turn her in, Grace develops a deep hatred of you. If you set her free, she blames you for setting them off on their own without any help, and just assumes you helped the Templars find her. Its a no win situation.
In Best Served Cold, Grace will always act against you for revenge (the context is just slightly different) and she will always kill Thrask. Not to mention, in this mission, the rebels will ALWAYS assume you want to kill them on sight, ad Thrask will ALWAYS assume you're siding with Meredith, which is silly, because if you openly support Orsino in the beginning of Act 3, he notes how you defied Meredith when you talk to him in the Gallows. And speaking of the rebels, why do they attack me if I get the quest from Orsino?
"WE KNOW YOU'RE SPYING FOR ORSINO!"
Really? How? How did you know that? And why is that cause to attack me?
Even if we assume someone was listening to our conversation with Orsino, it makes less sense because they would've heard Orsino basically saying "I just want to know what they're up to. Dont get involved unless they're doing something sinister."
Its stupid how I'm forced to put down this rebellion against Merdith, especially when I'm the one who wants Meredtih gone the most!!
So true.
Hawke could have done a lot to undermind Meredith, support the Templars who opposed her, etc.
Instead, you end up doing her dirty work several times no matter what you'd prefer.
Modifié par Ghidorah14, 18 octobre 2011 - 12:28 .
Aveline would want to arrest her though.CrimsonZephyr wrote...
TheCreeper wrote...
You think Aveline is going to stand for Hawke murdering a member of the chantry? Or Carver? Or Bethany, Or Sebs if we are talking about Act 2?AlexXIV wrote...
How would anyone know that Hawke did it? There is only Petrice and her bodyguard. I am not for killing everyone or being able to, but in situations the person basically asks for a beating it makes sense to be able to use violence.TheCreeper wrote...
Petrice is a freaking sister in the chantry, until the end (shortly before she gets killed by that qunari) there isn't exactly enough evidence to get her disbarred and however extreme she maybe the results of killing a Revered Mother would be massive and horrible. She doesn't have to black mail hawke because as a member of the chantry she is pretty much untouchable. Hawke isn't like commander shepard or The Grey Warden, they don't have an sort of job title that allows them to get away with just about anything.
I'm sorry but most of the "Hawke should be able to murder these people before things get out of hand" Complaints really don't seem to think through what the consquences would be and how much they just wouldn't work in the game. It's kinda hard to become champion of a city after murdering a Priest.
A member of the Chantry that is blatantly acting as an agitator, and admitted to leading them right into a trap? Yeah, they'd think Petrice was an angel. Aveline disapproves if you implicate Elthina, because her involvement in Act II's Qunari stuff is weak at best. Petrice, however, admitted to your face that she tried to have them all killed as pawns in her little scheme.
b09boy wrote...
-Mistakenly and unknowingly released the lyrium idol which all but creates the central antagonist and nearly destroys the city.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps Anders create a mage/templar civil war throughout Thedas.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps and even allows Corypheus to escape and likely infiltrate the Grey Wardens.
-Mistakenly
and unknowingly prevents a list of Qunari spies from being obtained,
likely making the eventual qunari invasion all the worse.
It was annoying at first, but this has gotten to be just comical. I have to wonder if Bioware even realizes what a joke Hawke is. I'm not sure I've ever seen an RPG character railroaded so much into being a complete stooge or stepstool for other characters to walk all over.
Modifié par UltiPup, 18 octobre 2011 - 12:32 .
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