703 réponses à ce sujet

[Ghidorah14]

UltiPup wrote...

b09boy wrote...

-Mistakenly and unknowingly released the lyrium idol which all but creates the central antagonist and nearly destroys the city.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps Anders create a mage/templar civil war throughout Thedas.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps and even allows Corypheus to escape and likely infiltrate the Grey Wardens.
-Mistakenly
and unknowingly prevents a list of Qunari spies from being obtained,
likely making the eventual qunari invasion all the worse.

It was annoying at first, but this has gotten to be just comical. I have to wonder if Bioware even realizes what a joke Hawke is.  I'm not sure I've ever seen an RPG character railroaded so much into being a complete stooge or stepstool for other characters to walk all over.

Oh no the hero has faults and is unable to stop every single disaster. How horrifying.

****e happens. Hawke's character truly shines when he/she tries to get out of the ****e.

The problem isnt that Hawke cant stop every little crisis in Kirwall.

The problem is that Hawke was heavily marketed as "the most important person in Thedas." But the reality is that Hawke is merely a by-stander who only takes action when it directly affects him.

In The First Sacrifice, at the end, you have the option to say to Emeric "I'm going to get the bastard that did this!" But come 3 years later, when Aveline brings the matter to your attention, Hawke seems to have almost completely forgotten. He didnt get involved at all.  Hell, Hawke was so lazy he didnt even bother telling HIS OWN DAMN MOTHER about the killer who sends white flowers to his victims!!

Hawke didnt give a rats ass about the killer until his own mother was in danger.

[DPSSOC]

UltiPup wrote...

b09boy wrote...

-Mistakenly and unknowingly released the lyrium idol which all but creates the central antagonist and nearly destroys the city.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps Anders create a mage/templar civil war throughout Thedas.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps and even allows Corypheus to escape and likely infiltrate the Grey Wardens.
-Mistakenly
and unknowingly prevents a list of Qunari spies from being obtained,
likely making the eventual qunari invasion all the worse.

It was annoying at first, but this has gotten to be just comical. I have to wonder if Bioware even realizes what a joke Hawke is.  I'm not sure I've ever seen an RPG character railroaded so much into being a complete stooge or stepstool for other characters to walk all over.

Oh no the hero has faults and is unable to stop every single disaster. How horrifying.

****e happens. Hawke's character truly shines when he/she tries to get out of the ****e.

I've seen this a lot and I have to ask can you actually point to a single disaster Hawke does stop?  At best Hawke manages to keep them from becoming total disasters like the Qunari incident.  Failing to stop every single disaster doesn't bother people, controlling a character who essentially just sits and watches them happen does.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Lord Aesir wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Petrice is a freaking sister in the chantry, until the end (shortly before she gets killed by that qunari) there isn't exactly enough evidence to get her disbarred and however extreme she maybe the results of killing a Revered Mother would be massive and horrible. She doesn't have to black mail hawke because as a member of the chantry she is pretty much untouchable. Hawke isn't like commander shepard or The Grey Warden, they don't have an sort of job title that allows them to get away with just about anything.

I'm sorry but most of the "Hawke should be able to murder these people before things get out of hand" Complaints really don't seem to think through what the consquences would be and how much they just wouldn't work in the game. It's kinda hard to become champion of a city after murdering a Priest.

How would anyone know that Hawke did it? There is only Petrice and her bodyguard. I am not for killing everyone or being able to, but in situations the person basically asks for a beating it makes sense to be able to use violence.

You think Aveline is going to stand for Hawke murdering a member of the chantry? Or Carver? Or Bethany, Or Sebs if we are talking about Act 2?

A member of the Chantry that is blatantly acting as an agitator, and admitted to leading them right into a trap? Yeah, they'd think Petrice was an angel. Aveline disapproves if you implicate Elthina, because her involvement in Act II's Qunari stuff is weak at best. Petrice, however, admitted to your face that she tried to have them all killed as pawns in her little scheme.

Aveline would want to arrest her though.

Yes, in a city where the guard is blatantly corrupt and Petrice has her hands in many pockets. She isn't above being a cowboy cop when the situation calls for it.

[Heimdall]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Petrice is a freaking sister in the chantry, until the end (shortly before she gets killed by that qunari) there isn't exactly enough evidence to get her disbarred and however extreme she maybe the results of killing a Revered Mother would be massive and horrible. She doesn't have to black mail hawke because as a member of the chantry she is pretty much untouchable. Hawke isn't like commander shepard or The Grey Warden, they don't have an sort of job title that allows them to get away with just about anything.

I'm sorry but most of the "Hawke should be able to murder these people before things get out of hand" Complaints really don't seem to think through what the consquences would be and how much they just wouldn't work in the game. It's kinda hard to become champion of a city after murdering a Priest.

How would anyone know that Hawke did it? There is only Petrice and her bodyguard. I am not for killing everyone or being able to, but in situations the person basically asks for a beating it makes sense to be able to use violence.

You think Aveline is going to stand for Hawke murdering a member of the chantry? Or Carver? Or Bethany, Or Sebs if we are talking about Act 2?

A member of the Chantry that is blatantly acting as an agitator, and admitted to leading them right into a trap? Yeah, they'd think Petrice was an angel. Aveline disapproves if you implicate Elthina, because her involvement in Act II's Qunari stuff is weak at best. Petrice, however, admitted to your face that she tried to have them all killed as pawns in her little scheme.

Aveline would want to arrest her though.

Yes, in a city where the guard is blatantly corrupt and Petrice has her hands in many pockets. She isn't above being a cowboy cop when the situation calls for it.

Only when the criminals attack them rather than be arrested.  Petrice had no intention of attacking Hawke directly at that time.

[Taritu]

DreGregoire wrote...

Interestingly enough I just replayed this yesterday and I couldn't believe Petrice said she wasn't going to let me kill her. I was like, seriously? You think that one templar is enough to deter me from killing you. I can totally understand where people are coming from in this situation. There would be no way for anybody to ever know who had killed her. Unless... she told somebody who she hired out side of her and Varnall (is that his name?). But if this was the case she should have mentioned it instead of being, I will not allow it. Now is Hawke the kind of person who will kill people who will not fight back? That depends on your Hawke and how you play Hawke. Personally, I think this is a circular discussion. Her plan failed miserably so I'm not sure my Hawke would think she was worth his/her time, but that's just me.

Edit: I think that her wording is the real issue. If she had said, "I refuse to fight you," then as Hawke you may have said, "Ah, I don't killed unarmed people who won't fight back." That is if you are playing that type of Hawke, heh!

I don't know, Hawke's an ex-mob enforcer.  Most of my Hawke's would have had no moral qualms.  I mean, the number of nameless thugs I kill, what's two more people?  Just because she has a name?  They tried to kill me, the fact they didn't personally pull weapons on me is a meaningless quibble. And if you're good but ruthless, killing an agitator is entirely reasonable.

I can't see your party stopping you, even Aveline (she never stops you do anything else) but if they do, well, that's an explanation for why you didn't do it, isn't it?  Hell, I'd even accept a cutscene in which she dodges out a door and it latches behind her, then I fight her guard.  At least, then, I tried.

Again, some Hawkes might not do it, but again, you've just spent a year as one of the most feared enforcers in the city.  People like that don't take being set up lightly. 

I didn't like when I threaten to kill Morrigan and she escapes in a cut-scene, I'll admit, but it was a 100X better than this.

[DreGregoire]

Ghidorah14 wrote...
The problem isnt that Hawke cant stop every little crisis in Kirwall.

The problem is that Hawke was heavily marketed as "the most important person in Thedas." But the reality is that Hawke is merely a by-stander who only takes action when it directly affects him.

In The First Sacrifice, at the end, you have the option to say to Emeric "I'm going to get the bastard that did this!" But come 3 years later, when Aveline brings the matter to your attention, Hawke seems to have almost completely forgotten. He didnt get involved at all.  Hell, Hawke was so lazy he didnt even bother telling HIS OWN DAMN MOTHER about the killer who sends white flowers to his victims!!

Hawke didnt give a rats ass about the killer until his own mother was in danger.

Aren't we all by-standers that react only when necessary from time to time?

That is how I feel forced to play him/her. He/She has her/his own agenda and the rest of the time he/she is a by-stander forced to act. I don't know if perhaps it appears this way more to us because the time elasped isn't as noticeable to us or not. I mean is three years with no leads long enough to cause a memory lapse or a lulling of our concern that the person will return? There is some mention of the guard not doing their job (you can accuse Aveline of just this). Did we even have enough information to go on? It seems odd to me that Hawke wouldn't warn his mother but it also seems common to Hawke's personal arrogance that his/her own are untouchable, despite possibly learning differently with Bethany.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 18 octobre 2011 - 03:45 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Butting in here for a completely off-topic observation.

HAM Hawke, you have the best user name on the BS-N.

That is all.

[maxernst]

DPSSOC wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

b09boy wrote...

-Mistakenly and unknowingly released the lyrium idol which all but creates the central antagonist and nearly destroys the city.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps Anders create a mage/templar civil war throughout Thedas.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps and even allows Corypheus to escape and likely infiltrate the Grey Wardens.
-Mistakenly
and unknowingly prevents a list of Qunari spies from being obtained,
likely making the eventual qunari invasion all the worse.

It was annoying at first, but this has gotten to be just comical. I have to wonder if Bioware even realizes what a joke Hawke is.  I'm not sure I've ever seen an RPG character railroaded so much into being a complete stooge or stepstool for other characters to walk all over.

Oh no the hero has faults and is unable to stop every single disaster. How horrifying.

****e happens. Hawke's character truly shines when he/she tries to get out of the ****e.

I've seen this a lot and I have to ask can you actually point to a single disaster Hawke does stop?  At best Hawke manages to keep them from becoming total disasters like the Qunari incident.  Failing to stop every single disaster doesn't bother people, controlling a character who essentially just sits and watches them happen does.

Honestly, I doubt that things would have unfolded very differently if Hawke & Co had never come to Kirkwall.  Varric would have found somebody else to invest in the Deep Roads expedition.  The fights to get to the lyrium idol weren't all that tough, so I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Bartrand would still have gotten the idol, brought it back to Kirkwall, and it would have fallen into Meredith's hands.  Maybe Varric would never have been trapped and died in the Deep Roads, but in the big picture, that wouldn't really matter unless Anders happened to die with him.

In Act 2, I think the Templar army and Meredith would have defeated the Qunari without Hawke.  More bloodshed, perhaps, but same outcome.

In Act 3, Anders still blows up the Chantry, Meredith just has to try and fulfill the rite of annullment without Hawke.  Orsino still goes Harvester, maybe Meredith beats him, maybe not.  But since it really doesn't matter if the mages or templars "win" very much, I can't see that Hawke's presence changes anything.

Modifié par maxernst, 18 octobre 2011 - 03:53 .

[Ghidorah14]

Aren't we all by-standers that react only when necessary from time to time?

That is how I feel forced to play him/her. He/She has her/his own agenda and the rest of the time he/she is a by-stander forced to act. I don't know if perhaps it appears this way more to us because the time elasped isn't as noticeable to us or not. I mean is three years with no leads long enough to cause a memory lapse or a lulling of our concern that the person will return? There is some mention of the guard not doing their job (you can accuse Aveline of just this). Did we even have enough information to go on? It seems odd to me that Hawke wouldn't warn his mother but it also seems common to Hawke's personal arrogance that his/her own are untouchable, despite possibly learning differently with Bethany.

The thing is, that makes for an interesting character, but NOT the hero BioWare hyped Hawke up to be.

[Morroian]

maxernst wrote...

Honestly, I doubt that things would have unfolded very differently if Hawke & Co had never come to Kirkwall.  Varric would have found somebody else to invest in the Deep Roads expedition.  The fights to get to the lyrium idol weren't all that tough, so I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Bartrand would still have gotten the idol, brought it back to Kirkwall, and it would have fallen into Meredith's hands.  Maybe Varric would never have been trapped and died in the Deep Roads, but in the big picture, that wouldn't really matter unless Anders happened to die with him.

Whereas I think Hawke is the unwitting catalyst for most of what happens. IMHO while Varric and Bartrand may have found another backer they wouldn't have got through the darkspawn to the idol. IMHO you're confusing gameplay with the story, while you may not have found it difficult getting past the darkspawn storywise it was pretty clearly meant to be an obstacle that very few would pass.

As for Anders he would have almost certainly died or been made tranquil before the time of Act 3.   

[TEWR]

DreGregoire wrote...

Ghidorah14 wrote...
The problem isnt that Hawke cant stop every little crisis in Kirwall.

The problem is that Hawke was heavily marketed as "the most important person in Thedas." But the reality is that Hawke is merely a by-stander who only takes action when it directly affects him.

In The First Sacrifice, at the end, you have the option to say to Emeric "I'm going to get the bastard that did this!" But come 3 years later, when Aveline brings the matter to your attention, Hawke seems to have almost completely forgotten. He didnt get involved at all.  Hell, Hawke was so lazy he didnt even bother telling HIS OWN DAMN MOTHER about the killer who sends white flowers to his victims!!

Hawke didnt give a rats ass about the killer until his own mother was in danger.

Aren't we all by-standers that react only when necessary from time to time?

That is how I feel forced to play him/her. He/She has her/his own agenda and the rest of the time he/she is a by-stander forced to act. I don't know if perhaps it appears this way more to us because the time elasped isn't as noticeable to us or not. I mean is three years with no leads long enough to cause a memory lapse or a lulling of our concern that the person will return? There is some mention of the guard not doing their job (you can accuse Aveline of just this). Did we even have enough information to go on? It seems odd to me that Hawke wouldn't warn his mother but it also seems common to Hawke's personal arrogance that his/her own are untouchable, despite possibly learning differently with Bethany.

1) Bioware hyped up Hawke to be "the most important person in Thedas" (something that immediately struck me as a falsehood. Hawke would be an important person but not the most important person), a "hero who changed the world", and a person whose Rise to Power would be shaped by us.

In short, they hyped him up to be a proactive protagonist and couldn't follow through with it, and now it seems -- which isn't to say that it actually is -- like they're upset that we were disappointed that Hawke was a person who never acts when he should, even if he would still end up failing to prevent the very thing he's acting to prevent.

A Rise to Power involves building political connections and actually using them. Not just a lot of gold and earning a figurehead title. Power =/= brawn. Power = brawn, influence, cunning, wit, charm, etc.

2) Most people don't play video games to be reminded that they're only reactive. Most people play video games so that they can play the part of the hero they wish they could be.

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Ghidorah14 wrote...
The problem isnt that Hawke cant stop every little crisis in Kirwall.

The problem is that Hawke was heavily marketed as "the most important person in Thedas." But the reality is that Hawke is merely a by-stander who only takes action when it directly affects him.

In The First Sacrifice, at the end, you have the option to say to Emeric "I'm going to get the bastard that did this!" But come 3 years later, when Aveline brings the matter to your attention, Hawke seems to have almost completely forgotten. He didnt get involved at all.  Hell, Hawke was so lazy he didnt even bother telling HIS OWN DAMN MOTHER about the killer who sends white flowers to his victims!!

Hawke didnt give a rats ass about the killer until his own mother was in danger.

Aren't we all by-standers that react only when necessary from time to time?

That is how I feel forced to play him/her. He/She has her/his own agenda and the rest of the time he/she is a by-stander forced to act. I don't know if perhaps it appears this way more to us because the time elasped isn't as noticeable to us or not. I mean is three years with no leads long enough to cause a memory lapse or a lulling of our concern that the person will return? There is some mention of the guard not doing their job (you can accuse Aveline of just this). Did we even have enough information to go on? It seems odd to me that Hawke wouldn't warn his mother but it also seems common to Hawke's personal arrogance that his/her own are untouchable, despite possibly learning differently with Bethany.

1) Bioware hyped up Hawke to be "the most important person in Thedas" (something that immediately struck me as a falsehood. Hawke would be an important person but not the most important person), a "hero who changed the world", and a person whose Rise to Power would be shaped by us.

In short, they hyped him up to be a proactive protagonist and couldn't follow through with it, and now it seems -- which isn't to say that it actually is -- like they're upset that we were disappointed that Hawke was a person who never acts when he should, even if he would still end up failing to prevent the very thing he's acting to prevent.

A Rise to Power involves building political connections and actually using them. Not just a lot of gold and earning a figurehead title. Power =/= brawn. Power = brawn, influence, cunning, wit, charm, etc.

2) Most people don't play video games to be reminded that they're only reactive. Most people play video games so that they can play the part of the hero they wish they could be.

Actually, they hyped Hawke up to be what Cassandra believed Hawke to be.  Funny that...

[TEWR]

Cassandra believed that Hawke was spreading subversion against the Chantry. That was never marketed in DAII's marketing.

[The Sapien]

Yep. Hawk is definitely no Shepard.

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Cassandra believed that Hawke was spreading subversion against the Chantry. That was never marketed in DAII's marketing.

Cassandra believed Hawke was the driving force that began the war, a vitally important figure in this great change in the world's history.  Sound familiar?

[TEWR]

Well I was never asking for him to be the driving force that began the war. None of my posts have ever asked for him to be that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No but you did complain that he wasn't waht the rumor said he was. The whole point of DA2 was to show how tall tales had made Hawke into the most important man in Thedas, even though he was merely a catalyst.

[Killjoy Cutter]

DreGregoire wrote...

Interestingly enough I just replayed this yesterday and I couldn't believe Petrice said she wasn't going to let me kill her. I was like, seriously? You think that one templar is enough to deter me from killing you. I can totally understand where people are coming from in this situation. There would be no way for anybody to ever know who had killed her. Unless... she told somebody who she hired out side of her and Varnall (is that his name?). But if this was the case she should have mentioned it instead of being, I will not allow it. Now is Hawke the kind of person who will kill people who will not fight back? That depends on your Hawke and how you play Hawke. Personally, I think this is a circular discussion. Her plan failed miserably so I'm not sure my Hawke would think she was worth his/her time, but that's just me.

At least two of the Hawkes I've played through would have killed Petrice and Varnell on the spot. 

Petrice is as stupid as she is fanatic if she thinks Hawke couldn't kill her on the spot.  This is the same Hawke and company who just laughed off about 20 Qunari in close combat... 

[MG800]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No but you did complain that he wasn't waht the rumor said he was. The whole point of DA2 was to show how tall tales had made Hawke into the most important man in Thedas, even though he was merely a catalyst.

Huh. That's right. This story isn't about a man who changed the world - it's the story of not important joe (howewer skilled - gameplay is hurting story a bit) who tried to mind his own buisness, got caught in the events, and next time he/she knew, get promoted a hero.
It's the story about stories. It's not about Hawke, not for real - he serves as an example, as a tool of stories, that grow on their own. In time, when Varric was interrogated, there was already no way to tell, what really happened, other then asking Hawke him/herself.
I think it would be better for a game, if it was Hawke who was interrogated - and at the end, as an ultimate consequence of his actions, he would get hanged, praised or simply locked up. Then, depending of which fate he met, it could be implied, that he got rescued, escaped or vanished (either he, or his body).

Modifié par MG800, 18 octobre 2011 - 01:12 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't want to kill Petrice. She's important to the Qunari attack on Kirkwall in Act II. I just want the game to give me a believable reason for not being able to kill her.

Giving Hawke the option to threaten to kill her and not giving Hawke a believable reason why he can't or not having him follow through with it not only makes him look stupid, but it also makes him look like he's a coward who's afraid to kill a Chantry sister. IMO.

Again, a believable reason for why I can't kill her is what needs to be given.

I just want the option to kill her.  I'm tired of railroading and excuses.

[b09boy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Interestingly enough I just replayed this yesterday and I couldn't believe Petrice said she wasn't going to let me kill her. I was like, seriously? You think that one templar is enough to deter me from killing you. I can totally understand where people are coming from in this situation. There would be no way for anybody to ever know who had killed her. Unless... she told somebody who she hired out side of her and Varnall (is that his name?). But if this was the case she should have mentioned it instead of being, I will not allow it. Now is Hawke the kind of person who will kill people who will not fight back? That depends on your Hawke and how you play Hawke. Personally, I think this is a circular discussion. Her plan failed miserably so I'm not sure my Hawke would think she was worth his/her time, but that's just me.

At least two of the Hawkes I've played through would have killed Petrice and Varnell on the spot. 

Petrice is as stupid as she is fanatic if she thinks Hawke couldn't kill her on the spot.  This is the same Hawke and company who just laughed off about 20 Qunari in close combat... 

Gameplay and story disconnect.  We are lead, through Varric's exaggerrations of the combat, that Hawke could take on armies of 20 templars and 50 qunari then stop for more in a back alley on the way home.  But then we see the reality every so often.  How many templars took away Bethany?  How many guarded Petrice?

I think it comes down to Hawke not being nearly as badass in reality as he is even in Varric's non-exagerrated tale.  Decently skilled in the beginning, more so than the average thug, and growing to become reasonably strong and well-equipped by the end, but not half the army-breaker s/he's made out to be.

[Killjoy Cutter]

b09boy wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Interestingly enough I just replayed this yesterday and I couldn't believe Petrice said she wasn't going to let me kill her. I was like, seriously? You think that one templar is enough to deter me from killing you. I can totally understand where people are coming from in this situation. There would be no way for anybody to ever know who had killed her. Unless... she told somebody who she hired out side of her and Varnall (is that his name?). But if this was the case she should have mentioned it instead of being, I will not allow it. Now is Hawke the kind of person who will kill people who will not fight back? That depends on your Hawke and how you play Hawke. Personally, I think this is a circular discussion. Her plan failed miserably so I'm not sure my Hawke would think she was worth his/her time, but that's just me.

At least two of the Hawkes I've played through would have killed Petrice and Varnell on the spot. 

Petrice is as stupid as she is fanatic if she thinks Hawke couldn't kill her on the spot.  This is the same Hawke and company who just laughed off about 20 Qunari in close combat... 

Gameplay and story disconnect.  We are lead, through Varric's exaggerrations of the combat, that Hawke could take on armies of 20 templars and 50 qunari then stop for more in a back alley on the way home.  But then we see the reality every so often.  How many templars took away Bethany?  How many guarded Petrice?

I think it comes down to Hawke not being nearly as badass in reality as he is even in Varric's non-exagerrated tale.  Decently skilled in the beginning, more so than the average thug, and growing to become reasonably strong and well-equipped by the end, but not half the army-breaker s/he's made out to be.

Any argument based on gameplay / story segregation is immediately meaningless in my book.  What the game shows us, is.  End of story.  If a cutscene shows us something else, that's crap.  See also, flying Asari and Jack crushing three YMIR with ease. 

Varric's exagerations are pretty clearly marked, as well.  They're firmly framed by cutscenes, and remarked on my Cassandra.  The fake opening for Cassandra, and then his first telling on the raid of his brother's mansion stand out. 

Hawke and company wipes out all the Qunari on the coast when they attack over the Sarabas, and then we're supposed to believe that they couldn't obliterate one Templar and Sister Hate? 

[DreGregoire]

Gameplay is never representative of true numbers. Much of the waves of enemies are just there to fulfil the players desire to kill kill kill! And I am thoroughly insulted that somebody would think my Hawke isn't as awesome as my Hawke is portrayed to be! Blasphemy! Just kidding. LOL.

Seriously though, even though I think there should have been the option to truly kill Petrice, I can understand from a resource angle that they made it not possible. Perhaps, they should have made Petrice a identical twin. Then we could have killed her and then dealt with her sister later. Ooops I got silly again. I like the idea of her escaping through a door and locking it behind her, but I don't think it is in her nature to do so.

I've seen some posts on here that talk about what a companion might think or do if Hawke tries to kill her and some of them seem spot on to me (if our companions actually dared to step in and interfer, other than snarling at Hawke their disagreement), others seemed way off base. It's interesting to see how differently people interpret the companions world view.


Edit: Ah, and one other thing I wanted to say about people who play a different Hawke that would have just outright killed her despite her not being willing to fight. Why would you even have helped her out in the first place? Money? Status? Because your companions expect it? Just because it's a quest in the game? Whatever your motivation, could not the same motivation cause you not to kill her? *shrugs* I'm just a wondering is all and not saying you are wrong in your assessment of what you would have done if you weren't railroaded by the devs to stand there doing nothing.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 18 octobre 2011 - 03:51 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No but you did complain that he wasn't waht the rumor said he was. The whole point of DA2 was to show how tall tales had made Hawke into the most important man in Thedas, even though he was merely a catalyst.

He still could've been a catalyst if the game's story hadn't been so horrible. I am not asking for him to be the driving force that began the actual war. I'm simply asking for the story -- and by extension Hawke -- to not be so reactive.

Hawke doesn't have to be like "I will see to it that this war begins now!". He just has to be like "Meredith's reign has grown too oppressive. I'll free the mages through the Mage Underground so that they won't be at risk."

That's not him wanting a war. That's him trying to prevent mages from being made Tranquil or killed. He doesn't want a war to begin nor is he actively trying to cause one. He's trying to prevent something.

Even if he inevitably failed due to Anders' bomb and the lyrium idol (which actually could've made the situation grey), he still wouldn't be the driving force that began the war. He would still be a catalyst.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 octobre 2011 - 03:58 .

[The Sapien]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

b09boy wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

Interestingly enough I just replayed this yesterday and I couldn't believe Petrice said she wasn't going to let me kill her. I was like, seriously? You think that one templar is enough to deter me from killing you. I can totally understand where people are coming from in this situation. There would be no way for anybody to ever know who had killed her. Unless... she told somebody who she hired out side of her and Varnall (is that his name?). But if this was the case she should have mentioned it instead of being, I will not allow it. Now is Hawke the kind of person who will kill people who will not fight back? That depends on your Hawke and how you play Hawke. Personally, I think this is a circular discussion. Her plan failed miserably so I'm not sure my Hawke would think she was worth his/her time, but that's just me.

At least two of the Hawkes I've played through would have killed Petrice and Varnell on the spot. 

Petrice is as stupid as she is fanatic if she thinks Hawke couldn't kill her on the spot.  This is the same Hawke and company who just laughed off about 20 Qunari in close combat... 

Gameplay and story disconnect.  We are lead, through Varric's exaggerrations of the combat, that Hawke could take on armies of 20 templars and 50 qunari then stop for more in a back alley on the way home.  But then we see the reality every so often.  How many templars took away Bethany?  How many guarded Petrice?

I think it comes down to Hawke not being nearly as badass in reality as he is even in Varric's non-exagerrated tale.  Decently skilled in the beginning, more so than the average thug, and growing to become reasonably strong and well-equipped by the end, but not half the army-breaker s/he's made out to be.

Any argument based on gameplay / story segregation is immediately meaningless in my book.  What the game shows us, is.  End of story.  If a cutscene shows us something else, that's crap.  See also, flying Asari and Jack crushing three YMIR with ease. 

Varric's exagerations are pretty clearly marked, as well.  They're firmly framed by cutscenes, and remarked on my Cassandra.  The fake opening for Cassandra, and then his first telling on the raid of his brother's mansion stand out. 

Hawke and company wipes out all the Qunari on the coast when they attack over the Sarabas, and then we're supposed to believe that they couldn't obliterate one Templar and Sister Hate? 

You killed it. These might seem like little things to the writers, but they completely ruin scenes, shattering all our illusions of immersion. Bending rules is fine, but don't shatter them.
I'm replaying MofA on nightmare, Tallis shows up for her opening scene, killing one guy after another with ease, but as soon as it switches to combat mode, well, things don't fit together. Cut scenes are geared for the extremely casual players while dishonoring the more serious fans. Thanks, BioWare.