703 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

UltiPup wrote...

Oh no the hero has faults and is unable to stop every single disaster. How horrifying.

****e happens. Hawke's character truly shines when he/she tries to get out of the ****e.

I think people are addressing that Hawke doesn't do anything, even when it's well within his power to do something. Hawke doesn't do anything about Sister Petrice, despite knowing that she's trying to start a religious war and nearly caused his death. Hawke doesn't do anything with his status and wealth besides purchase a mansion. Hawke never uses the handwritten note to investigate who Quentin's accomplice was. Hawke doesn't use his status as Champion to support or condemn Meredith's dictatorship for three years. Hawke stands idly by while Grace murders Ser Thrask. I'm seeing a serious problem when the narrative and the protagonist take a seat to "The Plot Dictates."

Why shouldn't people have an issue when the writers have continued this type of behavior with Hawke in Legacy and MoTA?

[Killjoy Cutter]

LobselVith8 wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Oh no the hero has faults and is unable to stop every single disaster. How horrifying.

****e happens. Hawke's character truly shines when he/she tries to get out of the ****e.

I think people are addressing that Hawke doesn't do anything, even when it's well within his power to do something. Hawke doesn't do anything about Sister Petrice, despite knowing that she's trying to start a religious war and nearly caused his death. Hawke doesn't do anything with his status and wealth besides purchase a mansion. Hawke never uses the handwritten note to investigate who Quentin's accomplice was. Hawke doesn't use his status as Champion to support or condemn Meredith's dictatorship for three years. Hawke stands idly by while Grace murders Ser Thrask. I'm seeing a serious problem when the narrative and the protagonist take a seat to "The Plot Dictates."

Why shouldn't people have an issue when the writers have continued this type of behavior with Hawke in Legacy and MoTA?

It's not that Hawke is powerless. 

It's that the player is powerless to do ANYTHING that might derail Bioware's precious little plot. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 18 octobre 2011 - 05:27 .

[Sharn01]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Oh no the hero has faults and is unable to stop every single disaster. How horrifying.

****e happens. Hawke's character truly shines when he/she tries to get out of the ****e.

I think people are addressing that Hawke doesn't do anything, even when it's well within his power to do something. Hawke doesn't do anything about Sister Petrice, despite knowing that she's trying to start a religious war and nearly caused his death. Hawke doesn't do anything with his status and wealth besides purchase a mansion. Hawke never uses the handwritten note to investigate who Quentin's accomplice was. Hawke doesn't use his status as Champion to support or condemn Meredith's dictatorship for three years. Hawke stands idly by while Grace murders Ser Thrask. I'm seeing a serious problem when the narrative and the protagonist take a seat to "The Plot Dictates."

Why shouldn't people have an issue when the writers have continued this type of behavior with Hawke in Legacy and MoTA?

It's not that Hawke is powerless. 

It's that the player is powerless to do ANYTHING that might derail Bioware's precious little plot. 

Its not the plot thats the problem, well it has problems but this isnt one of them.  Its the way they tell the story, if something must happen in a certain way for the games plot to continue on a certain path, then the writers need to stop putting Hawke in a position where s/he can do something to change it and then simply not allow him/her to do so with such flimsy reasons.  Either dont put Hawke in that position, or give a reason why Hawke is unable to change things.

Petrice did not need to wait around for Hawke to return, there could have been a lackey there that you could get information out of and kill if you wanted to.

Hawke could have demanded the scroll from Tallis, she could have handed him a fake scroll, took of running, you name it, there are hundreds of ways for her to get away with the scroll without making Hawke look bad.

I could do this for every bad scenerio in the game, but it would take multiple posts and I am sure others have just as many good ideas.

Modifié par Sharn01, 18 octobre 2011 - 07:02 .

[AlexXIV]

Well you can sum it up in options. If you make the same game with twice the options for players to make decisions, even small ones, you probably need at least twice as much time and ressources. Probably more. It's the same team that made DA:O so I doubt they just forgot how to do it right. The main difference between DA:O and DA2 is: DA:O - five years, DA2 - one and a half year. And that's really what it boils down to. It's 1/3 development time and time is money.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Oh no the hero has faults and is unable to stop every single disaster. How horrifying.

****e happens. Hawke's character truly shines when he/she tries to get out of the ****e.

I think people are addressing that Hawke doesn't do anything, even when it's well within his power to do something. Hawke doesn't do anything about Sister Petrice, despite knowing that she's trying to start a religious war and nearly caused his death. Hawke doesn't do anything with his status and wealth besides purchase a mansion. Hawke never uses the handwritten note to investigate who Quentin's accomplice was. Hawke doesn't use his status as Champion to support or condemn Meredith's dictatorship for three years. Hawke stands idly by while Grace murders Ser Thrask. I'm seeing a serious problem when the narrative and the protagonist take a seat to "The Plot Dictates."

Why shouldn't people have an issue when the writers have continued this type of behavior with Hawke in Legacy and MoTA?

It's not that Hawke is powerless. 

It's that the player is powerless to do ANYTHING that might derail Bioware's precious little plot. 

The gall of BioWare having a plot within their own game! How dare they!

[Sharn01]

Except the dialogue and the response already exist within the game, the ones that are there make Hawke look bad.

[AlexXIV]

Sharn01 wrote...

Except the dialogue and the response already exist within the game, the ones that are there make Hawke look bad.

If they had more time they could have changed things. Writing is sometimes a very slow process of re-reading and re-writing the same thing again and again until you like it.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 octobre 2011 - 08:02 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Oh no the hero has faults and is unable to stop every single disaster. How horrifying.

****e happens. Hawke's character truly shines when he/she tries to get out of the ****e.

I think people are addressing that Hawke doesn't do anything, even when it's well within his power to do something. Hawke doesn't do anything about Sister Petrice, despite knowing that she's trying to start a religious war and nearly caused his death. Hawke doesn't do anything with his status and wealth besides purchase a mansion. Hawke never uses the handwritten note to investigate who Quentin's accomplice was. Hawke doesn't use his status as Champion to support or condemn Meredith's dictatorship for three years. Hawke stands idly by while Grace murders Ser Thrask. I'm seeing a serious problem when the narrative and the protagonist take a seat to "The Plot Dictates."

Why shouldn't people have an issue when the writers have continued this type of behavior with Hawke in Legacy and MoTA?

It's not that Hawke is powerless. 

It's that the player is powerless to do ANYTHING that might derail Bioware's precious little plot. 

The gall of BioWare having plot-induced stupidity within their own game! How dare they!

Fixed .

Because that's really what it is. Can you honestly say that there's a valid reason for Hawke to work with Petrice if he outright says "No", or that there's a valid reason why he can't kill Petrice after the quest when she makes it clear she's staying under the radar so the Chantry doesn't find out she's involved, which would mean that if she was killed it dies with her?

Or that it makes sense for Decimus to attack Hawke without first finding out where his allegiances lie? Or that Grace goes insane no matter what and Hawke can't even tell her he had nothing to do with her getting caught?

Or that Orsino -- who showed no signs of insanity prior to the endgame -- goes insane for no reason at all for pro-mage people because Bioware focused more on their wanting another boss instead of considering the players?

[thats1evildude]

I accept that Hawke doesn't kill Petrice because she buys him off. That has always been my thinking.

From what I can tell, Decimus was a giant douchebag who was a heartbeat away from killing his own people so he could take on the templars. Grace wasn't much better; she was just the type of person to blame others for her failures.

As for Orsino, I've never viewed his actions as him "turning on" Hawke. He just loses all hope of winning the battle upon seeing his dead charges and turns into the Harvester with the intention of slaughtering everyone.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 octobre 2011 - 10:38 .

[Ghidorah14]

thats1evildude wrote...

I accept that Hawke doesn't kill Petrice because she buys him off. That has always been my thinking.

From what I can tell, Decimus was a giant douchebag who was a heartbeat away from killing his own people so he could take on the templars. Grace wasn't much better; she was just the type of person to blame others for her failures.

As for Orsino, I've never viewed his actions as him "turning on" Hawke. He just loses all hope of winning the battle upon seeing his dead charges and turns into the Harvester with the intention of slaughtering everyone.

But thats just stupid.

Orsino showed us that he's a level-headed thinker who prefers NOT to act on whims. Remember the end of Act 2?

"They have hostages, we need a distraction!"

The problem with him becoming "desperate" is that even if you hold the Templars back, and none of the mages get hurt, there will always be dead bodies left afterwards. I might as well not even bothered fighting!

Plus, he never used blood magic before, but now he can suddenly pull off something like THAT? I call BS.

Having him turn on you was also pretty stupid. At least try to explain it like "something went wrong! He cant tell friend from foe anymore in that form!" or "the transformation must have destroyed his mind! We need to stop him before he kills any innocent mages!"

[EmperorSahlertz]

A Harvester is a super-abominations of sorts... Did you expect him to be able to discern friend from foe?

[Ghidorah14]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A Harvester is a super-abominations of sorts... Did you expect him to be able to discern friend from foe?

I expected him to not become a Harvester.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A Harvester is a super-abominations of sorts... Did you expect him to be able to discern friend from foe?

They didn't have to make him turn on Hawke though. Really, all they needed to do was have a Pride Demon tear open the Veil (I would've loved a literal tearing of the Veil with a "Here's.... Johnny!" line) and possess a mook mage, and then perform the Harvester ritual.

The Harvester ritual as we all know is a form of blood magic. And we also know that demons are able to remember the arcane arts in the Fade since it's eternal, blood magic especially.

So it would've made more sense for a possessed mage to perform the ritual since it would've been the demon doing it.

Or hell just give the player the option to forgive Orsino and he won't turn on Hawke.

[thats1evildude]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

Plus, he never used blood magic before, but now he can suddenly pull off something like THAT? I call BS.

He did have Quentin's research. From what I can tell, Quentin had accomplished things that no mage had ever done before.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Gaider addressed that the battle with Orsino was placed there because they wanted another boss fight, so I wouldn't look for too much character motivation in that scene - it's likely the same reason Hawke fights Decimus and Grace, even when their motivations make absolutely no sense in respect to the narrative.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

Ghidorah14 wrote...

Plus, he never used blood magic before, but now he can suddenly pull off something like THAT? I call BS.

He did have Quentin's research. From what I can tell, Quentin had accomplished things that no mage had ever done before.

It's my belief that Quentin had sent a very thoroughly documented report on the Harvester ritual and other nefarious rituals involving blood magic to Orsino, and after Orsino read that he was horrified by it and cut off all contact with Quentin.

But because he has an eidetic memory (something I added for him to have so I can explain Bioware's horrendous writing in the pro-mage endgame ) he couldn't forget it.

I just can't figure out how the hell Quentin figured it out when it's a non-reversible ritual.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A Harvester is a super-abominations of sorts... Did you expect him to be able to discern friend from foe?

I expected him to not become a Harvester.

^  This.

What Orsino did was random, pointless, pathetic, and idiotic.  It comes completely out of the blue, from either side of the fight.  It's like for some reason someone at EA dictated that another boss fight be added to the game... 

[thats1evildude]

Again, I fully believe that Orsino supported Quentin's research as a means of developing a weapon against Meredith. He'd been quietly preparing for a confrontation with the templars for years.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I just can't figure out how the hell Quentin figured it out when it's a non-reversible ritual.

It may be that the ritual doesn't require the caster's body as a component, as the first Harvester in GoA didn't require the sacrifice of the mage who created it. (That mage did die, but only because the Harvester killed her.) Orsino just used himself because he was committing suicide.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:31 .

[TEWR]

true, it doesn't require the caster's body, but the ritual does requires a vessel. The original Harvester used dead casteless Dwarven bodies as a vessel.

There are only two ways Quentin could've known:

1) he did a test run on someone (dead or alive) and created a Harvester and possibly contained it using blood magic like the demons in Legacy were contained, and then he killed it.

or

2) Amgarrak's mage researcher sent notes to the surface talking about their exploits, and Kirkwall received these notes. And then Quentin got his hands on them somehow.

[thats1evildude]

Both of those are plausible explanations. However, it occured to me a while back that the Harvester is really just a golem assembled from corpses, albeit one whose "brain" can be separated from the body. "Leandra" was herself a golem stitched together from the body parts of dead women. I figure that if Quentin could figure out how to create "Leandra," it wouldn't be much of a stretch for him to figure out how to create a Harvester.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:38 .

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

Both of those are plausible explanations. However, it occured to me a while back that the Harvester is really just a golem assembled from corpses, albeit one whose "brain" can be seperated from the body.

Leandra was an example of necromancy; Orsino was an example of providing another boss battle for Hawke, according to the Head Writer. I don't think overanalyzing this is going to explain an incident that was only placed there so the player could fight another antagonist.

[Reno_Tarshil]

It was a golem stitched together with dead bodies and them empowered by a spirit in the fade. I really wished Orsino had become something else, but it just seemed like an excuse to use the Harvester Model again.

I'd have much preferred to have seen it in the deep roads somewhere.

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Leandra was an example of necromancy; Orsino was an example of providing another boss battle for Hawke, according to the Head Writer. I don't think overanalyzing this is going to explain an incident that was only placed there so the player could fight another antagonist.

I'm not over-analyzing the situation, I'm just providing the reasons why I don't have a problem with that scene. I hear a lot of people associate Orsino becoming the Harvester with terms like "UNFORGIVABLE," which is a tad over-exaggerated. Or am I not allowed to say anything unless I absolutely agree with you?

Reno_Tarshil wrote...

I'd have much preferred to have seen it in the deep roads somewhere.

Actually, I do find that a bit perplexing, giving the ending of Golems of Amgarrak. I entered the Deep Roads expecting to run into the Harvester at some point, but it never happened.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:56 .

[TEWR]

I do think it's unforgivable when Bioware puts gameplay bosses ahead of proper characterization and the choices the player should be able to make

[Reno_Tarshil]

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Leandra was an example of necromancy; Orsino was an example of providing another boss battle for Hawke, according to the Head Writer. I don't think overanalyzing this is going to explain an incident that was only placed there so the player could fight another antagonist.

I'm not over-analyzing the situation, I'm just providing the reasons why I don't have a problem with that scene. I hear a lot of people associate Orsino becoming the Harvester with terms like "UNFORGIVABLE," which is a tad over-exaggerated. Or am I not allowed to say anything unless I absolutely agree with you?

Reno_Tarshil wrote...

I'd have much preferred to have seen it in the deep roads somewhere.

Actually, I do find that a bit perplexing, giving the ending of Golems of Amgarrak. I entered the Deep Roads expecting to run into the Harvester at some point, but it never happened.

Well the thing is I followed DA2 extensively and the trailer had a screenshot of Hawke fighting a Harvester in Destiny quality So when Varric said to Cassie that going into the Deep Roads led to them finding something they'd never expect. I was secretly waiting for the Harvester to appear and instead I get a space alien rock creature who HUNGERS!

Oh Well, Nightmare Harvester can go suck it.