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[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I do think it's unforgivable when Bioware puts gameplay bosses ahead of proper characterization and the choices the player should be able to make

Eh. Setting your dog on fire is unforgiveable. Chopping up your parents and cooking them in stew is unforgiveable.  Orsino turning into the Harvester? Merely questionable.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:05 .

[TEWR]

You know, a Deep Roads Harvester would've been perfect for another trek into the Deep Roads by Hawke, Varric, and some other people to learn more about the red lyrium that made Bartrand go insane.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Redux Writer wrote...

I do think it's unforgivable when Bioware puts gameplay bosses ahead of proper characterization and the choices the player should be able to make.

Part of the problem seems to be that Bioware provides a motivation for the protagonist without letting us have much say, i.e. Why The Warden burned King Cailan's body, or why Hawke would say specific things that had Bioware making assumptions about the protagonist that have no input from the players who are supposed to be playing as "their" Hawke.

[TheCreeper]

The Harvester thing really was the most annoying thing in the game for me, I liked the first enchanter and the original plan for the Harvester made so much more sense than that rather pointless fight.

[Ghidorah14]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Part of the problem seems to be that Bioware provides a motivation for the protagonist without letting us have much say, i.e. Why The Warden burned King Cailan's body

Well, if you remember, in Thedas, its tradition for humans to burn their dead. Plus, you had the option to not do it.

[DreGregoire]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Part of the problem seems to be that Bioware provides a motivation for the protagonist without letting us have much say, i.e. Why The Warden burned King Cailan's body

Well, if you remember, in Thedas, its tradition for humans to burn their dead. Plus, you had the option to not do it.

Not to mention the ground is frozen and the nearest village is days away.

Edit: My pc forgot the shovel and pickaxe, dang!

Modifié par DreGregoire, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:41 .

[Sinuphro]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

b09boy wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

People are unfairly critical of the game and it's story.

Not really.  The story tries to be so many things without proper setup that it falls flat on its face.  People complain about the ending all they want, but the story was pretty screwed up from the opening narrative.

The failures of DA2's storytelling is almost artistically done.  It's incredible.

Plus the biggest thing of all, people seem to want too much from the devs and act like spoiled little kids because it wasn't enough for them.

Being a Troll doesn't get you anywhere or change anything. So just relax and don’t get your blood pressure up. These are consumers with money and you don’t have to like what they say.
 

Well that's the pot calling the kettle black. Considering how badly the Bioware devs are treated and how the consumers troll this forum.

A bunch of ungrateful fools is what they are. Dragon Age Origins' story was pretty conclusive and they could have easily not made a DAII. And now people are ranting because the devs decided to take the game in a new direction instead of rehash it like Square does with Final Fantasy.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Legacy I was fine with, but MotA really made me scream WTF.

for all the claims of "we're listening to you guys" they sure have failed to listen to the biggest complaint so far: Hawke being a totally reactive protagonist who doesn't even try to do something and fail. He just goes "Meh not for me" and fails because he's a failure.

What has Hawke actually failed at? Pretty much all of his big goals were success.

He escaped Lothering and got his family to Kirkwall, albeit with a casualty.

He got into the Deep Roads expedition and became a rich man for it.

He protected Kirkwall from the qunari when they decided to conquer.

He took a side and defeated Meredith.

The only thing he didn't succeed at was saving Leandra. And what good reason was there to do anything more in Mark of the Assassin? He went for the gem and got it in the end. There was no harm in letting Tallis live and keep the scroll.

I don't know where you got it in your head that Hawke was a failure because he accomplished what he wanted to do. And I don't know where you got it that Hawke is supposed to be a 'proactive' character and that the only way he can change the world is by being some revolutionary like you think the warden was.

Hawke is a survivor, thats what he's always been portrayed as. He does what he can to get by and thats his main concern. Nobody ever said he changes the world because he wants to.

Contrary to what you believe, a person can make a huge difference without meaning to. Look at the Courier from Fallout New Vegas. He caused the disaster in The Divide, which was one of the largest event seen in decades, and which turned a man into an obsessive nutjob bent on mass destruction, entirely on accident.

You're just sounding off because Hawke is his own person instead of a Warden clone. If anything he's more like the Courier. A man trying to get by and ends up involved in large events and makes a name for himself without meaning to.

You're not being fair to the develpers. You're acting like they don't have the right to make their characters and storys their way. And that they should completely sell out just to please you.

you don't get it at all do you?? ...sad...common sense is not so common afterall. the point being made is...hawke never gets the choice to alter things for the better or prevent negative outcomes when possible. that's why ppl hate DA2 but love DAO. In DAO you could compromise or outright pick an outcome. Speaking of DAO did you notice the flop bioware did with Zevran in DA2?? In DAO the leader of the crows said that if my warden joins the crows and does jobs, Zevran would not be bothered anymore by the crows. I did all the jobs and the leader of the crows went back to antica but yet in DA2 the leader of the crows died by Zevran's hands and the crows are still after Zevran?? WTF??
And the BS about being fair to the developers...how about the developers being fair and loyal to their customers?? Last I checked...in business...THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

[thats1evildude]

Sinuphro wrote...
Speaking of DAO did you notice the flop bioware did with Zevran in DA2?? In DAO the leader of the crows said that if my warden joins the crows and does jobs, Zevran would not be bothered anymore by the crows. I did all the jobs and the leader of the crows went back to antica but yet in DA2 the leader of the crows died by Zevran's hands and the crows are still after Zevran?? WTF??

Master Ignacio — the "leader of the Crows" as you put it — doesn't say anything like that. The deal he offers the Warden has nothing to do with Zevran, who is still targeted by the Crows at the end of Origins.

Ignacio says that Taliesen will still come after the Warden and Zevran no matter what. But if he/she helps out the Crows, then they won't take out any further contracts on the Warden and the other Guildmasters won't lend Taliesen any help.

Zevran himself says at the end of Origins that the Crows will be coming after him.

[TEWR]

Sinuphro wrote...

how about the developers being fair and loyal to their customers?? Last I checked...in business...THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

That's a falsehood. I'm not supporting Bioware's shoddy storytelling, but to think that the customer is always right is a falsehood that many people actually believe is true.

http://positiveshari...right-is-wrong/

read that. The customer isn't always right.

They can be right and they can be wrong. I once had some customers try and convince me that the policies from the store I used to work at were wrong when I told her about them.

I also had a customer try and blame me for her cake being ruined when I didn't even work near the cakes. Ever.

[Xilizhra]

And what good reason was there to do anything more in Mark of the Assassin? He went for the gem and got it in the end. There was no harm in letting Tallis live and keep the scroll.

Actually, this I disagree with. My Hawke didn't really give a crap about a gem of any kind, she just went along with Tallis because of some possible moral imperative she mentioned and wanted to learn more. Upon learning that Tallis was part of the qunari State Sec and that she had some rather important intelligence relating to it... I see no real reason for her to not take the scroll by whatever means necessary. Of course, it's possible that Tallis could flee, but being unable to try is... irksome. I'll need more time than I prefer to find a reason for this.

[LobselVith8]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

Well, if you remember, in Thedas, it's tradition for humans to burn their dead. Plus, you had the option not to do it.

I meant the writers adding The Warden's motivation for doing it because Cailan was of "royal blood" rather than leaving it vague, or providing multiple reasons for why The Warden would want to burn Cailan's body. Instead, the writers made a presumption about the motivation behind why The Warden would do this. It seems to be a habit of the writers, especially if you consider that Hawke will take on certain characteristics (i.e. attraction for Isabela after her quest with his or her smirk) or argue a certain position (i.e. arguing that Anders should have the Chantry negotiate a peace between its templars and the mages after "Dissent" if you take the final diplomatic dialogue) even if such a position is contrary to your particular type of Hawke.

[jlb524]

Xilizhra wrote...
Of course, it's possible that Tallis could flee, but being unable to try is... irksome. I'll need more time than I prefer to find a reason for this.

I can't think of a good reason why Hawke would just stand there like a lamp post (in winter) instead of getting all "grabby hands" with that scroll.

As I've said, I would have been satisfied if Hawke made the attempt to lunge at Tallis/cast a spell/unsheathe her bow/whatever with Tallis just being too quick for her.  Tallis would disappear in a smoke cloud and presto!  The DLC would end the same way but we players would have the impression that Hawke actually tried.

As for an explanation for Hawke's inaction...I don't know...perhaps the sun was in her eyes and she was blinded? 

Modifié par jlb524, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Ultimately, I think my Hawke's reasoning for this is that the qunari had deemed the scroll unimportant, hence Tallis acting as a renegade here. If she was acting out of personal idealism instead of some demand of the Qun, that in itself is anomalous for a qunari, and perhaps letting that disruptive element remain while feeling gratitude to Hawke would prove useful in the future.

[jlb524]

Did the qunari deem the scroll unimportant though?

The disruptive element is a good idea though I'm not sure how much damage a single individual can do from within the qunari.

[Xilizhra]

I think that's why Tallis was acting on her own.

[DreGregoire]

Well... my Hawke didn't want anything to do with a list of people who were quanari or ex or whatever else, because it is only a list and it isn't likely to be very accurate or up todate. Besides what does that list have to do with Hawke anyways? My Hawke came with Tallis for the riches not for a list to hunt down peeps. So, you may argue that Hawke could sell the list? How exactly is Hawke supposed to get the information/knowledge on who the list would be important to? Why would Hawke take something away from somebody else when it obviously means more to that person than it does to him/her? I just can't get on board with saying that Hawke should have had the option to take the scroll, because you already got paid. Oh... wait... greedy Hawke! LOL! Oh... mean Hawke! Oh... self-important Hawke! Nevermind I was thinking of just me and the reasons my Hawke went. LMAO!

Modifié par DreGregoire, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:43 .

[TEWR]

@Xilizhra: It's my belief that the Qunari didn't know Salit took the scroll and just thought he was one more Tal-Vashoth. Tallis then proceeded to hunt down her former mentor because of what the betrayal did to her, and through her contacts in Thedas she found out he was planning on selling a scroll of Qunari spies.

[DreGregoire]

nightmare, Tallis shows up for her opening scene, killing one guy after another with ease, but as soon as it switches to combat mode, well, things don't fit together. Cut scenes are geared for the extremely casual players while dishonoring the more serious fans.

I'm not really writing this to address the original poster I am quoting (or to hassle the poster because I sometimes think like the above person does), but I am posting it at anybody who seems to think their game play style is the one that should get the attention of the devs.

Nightmare is not the regular game, it's an addition for those who like a higher combat challenge. It by no means is representative of what it would really take to oft an individual. The combat system that games use is never representative of what it really takes to kill somebody. Saying that cutscenes are geared for the casual player because the cutscene character surprise killed a number of common soldiers and then proceeding to compare the cutscene to the difficulty of nightmare seems backwards to me. (I'm guilty of similiar statements at times). It only takes one cut to the throat to kill a man. It only takes so many wounds to drain a man of his blood. The number of hits it takes to down a common soldier on nightmare is so far beyond realistic. Not that I don't enjoy playing on nightmare, but to say a cutscene should be representative of it, to me, is asking a bit much. I can understand that it may be jarring; however, the game has four combat settings and I think that it's a bit much to expect the devs to make four cutscenes for each combat mode.

Edit: I think that my response is a bit off topic so I'll add this.
I can see where many people are coming from and I felt the same the third time I played through but then I started to look at things differently and although there are many times in the game I am frusterated by not being able to follow through; over all I don't view the game the same way now during my sixth or is it seventh (do partial games count?) playthrough.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 20 octobre 2011 - 03:36 .

[Joy Divison]

jlb524 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Of course, it's possible that Tallis could flee, but being unable to try is... irksome. I'll need more time than I prefer to find a reason for this.

I can't think of a good reason why Hawke would just stand there like a lamp post (in winter) instead of getting all "grabby hands" with that scroll.

As I've said, I would have been satisfied if Hawke made the attempt to lunge at Tallis/cast a spell/unsheathe her bow/whatever with Tallis just being too quick for her.  Tallis would disappear in a smoke cloud and presto!  The DLC would end the same way but we players would have the impression that Hawke actually tried.

As for an explanation for Hawke's inaction...I don't know...perhaps the sun was in her eyes and she was blinded? 

I can't speak for you, but that would have been more annoying for me.  I can't stand NPCs who break the rules because of a game master's fiat.

[Vicious]

Because Hawke as a protagonist is a many times more interesting than the newbie hero who, surprise surprise, ultimately saves the day.

Sounds like some people don't like dark fantasy. Stick to high. Everyone gets saved over there, and the protagonists are always flawless. And somehow, everything always works out.


I for one am happy Hawke isn't a mary sue.

Modifié par Vicious, 20 octobre 2011 - 04:40 .

[Addai]

Oh please with the can't handle dark fantasy. The protagonist acting stupid/ not acting at all at key moments is neither "dark" nor "mature." Either engage the points being made or stay out of it.

[Vicious]

Oh sorry, did I stumble on your forum? Do you have any authority here? Let me say it again: Hawke isn't a mary sue. There are plenty of literary characters who are victims of circumstance and still manage to persevere. She isn't a save Redcliffe-Save Werewolves-Save Dwarves-Save the Mages- Save the world type of character.

And that should be obvious.

Hawke doesn't get to dictate or decide much of anything outside of his personal life. And why should he? It's a big world and everyone's looking out for themselves.

Step down from DA:O's hero? Hell yes. A bit more, dare I say, realistic? also hell yes.

[Chewin]

Vicious wrote...

Because Hawke as a protagonist is a many times more interesting than the newbie hero who, surprise surprise, ultimately saves the day.

Sounds like some people don't like dark fantasy. Stick to high. Everyone gets saved over there, and the protagonists are always flawless. And somehow, everything always works out.


I for one am happy Hawke isn't a mary sue.

While I agree with your point, BW still handled Hawke poorly no matter how you twist it.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Vicious wrote...

Oh sorry, did I stumble on your forum? Do you have any authority here? Let me say it again: Hawke isn't a mary sue. There are plenty of literary characters who are victims of circumstance and still manage to persevere. She isn't a save Redcliffe-Save Werewolves-Save Dwarves-Save the Mages- Save the world type of character.

And that should be obvious.

Hawke doesn't get to dictate or decide much of anything outside of his personal life. And why should he? It's a big world and everyone's looking out for themselves.

Step down from DA:O's hero? Hell yes. A bit more, dare I say, realistic? also hell yes.

Oh please, Hawke spends 90% of the game slaughtering anyone who gets in his way. The only people exempt from this are characters with extremely contrived plot armor. Might I point out how unrealistic it is for someone who spends his day standing atop a mountain of corpses to stop short at a few key people who have undetectable plot relevance, but whom he has entirely justifiable reasons for killing immediately?

And why shouldn't Hawke try to change something outside of his immediate personal life? What if he wants to be an ambitious, young conqueror type?

Oh that's right, ambition is evil and ineffectual is realistic.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 20 octobre 2011 - 05:15 .

[Heimdall]

Vicious wrote...

Because Hawke as a protagonist is a many times more interesting than the newbie hero who, surprise surprise, ultimately saves the day.

Sounds like some people don't like dark fantasy. Stick to high. Everyone gets saved over there, and the protagonists are always flawless. And somehow, everything always works out.


I for one am happy Hawke isn't a mary sue.

The problem isn't that Hawke wasn't able to save people, the problem was that the reason's Hawke was unable to were not well handled.  I'd also have prefered for them to include choices where both result in different, but arguably equally disastrous, results.  I don't need to save everyone everytime, I just need a better reason why I can't.

This coming from someone who actually enjoyed the game very much.