703 réponses à ce sujet

[alex90c]

I have to say I never felt like that. I think me/my Hawke always did what s/he could.

Being everyone's b*tch is not "did what[ever] s/he could", that's just being everyone's b*tch. Hawke did NOTHING.

Small things, maybe, in the bigger scale of things, but important, nonetheless.

Important how so? Hawke did nothing.

Like saving Faynriel, Merril's clan, helping Harrowmond to escape. I don't feel like Hawke at any point dropped the ball.

I'll give you Feynriel since he's a somniari (though knowing Bioware this will probably end up being completely irrelevant), Merrill's clan didn't really add anything to the game besides "grrr shemlen", and in the context of events now, I don't really see how saving Harrowmont is really going to change much since the dwarves don't seem to have much relevance to the mage/templar conflict, it's more a human/elven thing.

And on saving Mother: I really feel like that had to be in the game, just like Bethany's/Carver's plots as well. It's about loosing people who mean a lot to Hawke.

So forcing deaths just to add drama. For the first sibling death, I didn't give a crap since they died five minutes after the game started anyway, and for the other sibling, death/circle/warden just seemed a way to write them out of most of the game.

What would have been more dramatic is if they both lived, giving you both perspectives to the mages and templars and if Carver ended up with the Templars and Bethany with the Circle. That gives you more of an emotional stake in the conflict rather than "lol died"

Somehow I feel if it was possible to save Mother/your other sibling, it would cheapen that somewhat. Hawke cannot save everyone (Mother, Seamus...)

No, he can't save everyone because of a mixture of him being useless and ineffectual and everyone around him just being insane.

and s/he cannot please everyone (Grace ect.

And that was just plain retarded. I'm going to lie to let you go free Grace! Oh thanks Hawke! GRRR HAWKE WHY DIDNT YOU GIVE US FOOD BLAHBLAHBLAH. Yeah, because it was so blatantly Hawke's fault wasn't it? Grace was an awful antagonist.

I remember playing through DAO and maxing up on Persuation and Cunning pretty much from the get-go, and the way I could talk people out of their goals/deeply-held morals/opinnions was just... uncanny. I know we're talking about video games, and talking about realism in a game with mages anf dragons is pretty much redundant, but still. I felt a lot more connected to Hawke, since s/he wasn't a magical superhero and people-pleaser, but a flesh-and-bone, flawed human being.

Hawke was a bit too flawed. Human beings are far more proactive, and sure, the Warden was reacting to the Blight, but they were being proactive in getting something done about it. Hawke just saw a problem and either ignored it, killed a gazillion people in order to somehow fix it, or killed a whole load of people, found the trail ended and rather than following it up just left it even if it was serious FOR EXAMPLE A BAG OF LIMBS.

[MissOuJ]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't feel that Bethany or Carver needed to die in the opening sequence. I felt that was a poorly contrived way of Bioware trying to get us to care about a person we didn't know.

...

Their deaths in the beginning were not necessary. Their fate should've been left to the player to decide.

...

Regarding Leandra, I do agree her death was necessary. But I take issue with the lack of Hawke investigating the serial killer, the lack of really getting to know Leandra since you barely interact with her, and her flopping around in the battle with Quentin.

Bethany/Carver was killed off to balance the gameplay & companions available to you. Playing mage Hawke with Beth, Anders, and Merril would've been a bit too much. Also, mage Hawke has a much wider range of abilities than Beth/any other cmopanion, so one more extra mage would be pointless, really. Same with warrior Hawke vs. Carver. Plus, they both get specialisations identical to Hawke if they live - Templar for Carver and Force Mage for Beth. Two force mages in particular would pretty much break any balance the game has and make it easier still - one of the most common complaints I've heard.

I agree Leandra needed more screen time, but I really do think Hawke did all s/he could to investigate: the first year s/he almost caught Quentin, but then the trail went cold and s/he had the expedition to think about: at that time, Hawke was something of a private investigator who'd been told to look into Ninette's disappearance, and he put forward all the evidence s/he found, but his/her main goal was to protect Bethany or him/herself from the Circle and get Lenadra's family estate back - thus, working odd jobs and trying to get into the expedition.
 
In the third act s/he picks up the investigation again, even when both s/he and Aveline think it is a waste of time and underestimate its importance. And that's one of the things that make Leandra's death even more heartwrenching; what if Aveline had taken the investigation seriously from the start, what if Hawke had found that trapdoor right away... The thing is, at the beginning, Hawke was something of a private investigator who'd been told to look into Ninette's disappearance, and he put forward all the evidence s/he found.

I do believe Hawke did everything possible to catch Quentin, and what is so incredibly sad about it is s/he blames him/herself anyway. With mage Hawke romancing Anders this is particularly clear: s/he even asks Anders, if mages truly are dangerous and evil and need to be locked up. That's a really, really sad and poignant scene, particularly for a pro-mage player, like myself.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 10 février 2012 - 10:39 .

[TEWR]

MissOuJ wrote...


Bethany/Carver was killed off to balance the gameplay & companions available to you. Playing mage Hawke with Beth, Anders, and Merril would've been a bit too much. Also, irrelevant. Mage Hawke has a much wider range of abilities than Beth/any other cmopanion, so one more extra mage would be pointless, really. Same with warrior Hawke vs. Carver. Plus, they both get specialisations identical to Hawke if they live - Templar for Carver and Force Mage for Beth. Two force mages in particular would pretty much break any balance the game has and make it easier still - one of the most common complaints I've heard.

I have never once bought into that line of thought. You can play a Rogue Hawke and have an all Rogue party, in both the base game and MotA. You could have an all Warrior party in DAO. Why should I be told how to play my game? If I want an all-mage party, let me have it.

Not to mention MotA has shown that you can in fact have a crapload of companions. Just look at the screen with the Exiled Prince installed. That's... what 9 companions if I'm remembering how many companions are in the game?

Why couldn't it have been like that in the main game?

It doesn't break the balance, as the game is a cakewalk on all difficulties. I've played Nightmare, and very rarely did I have a problem with it. If Bioware had gotten the combat right and actually made it challenging like it should've been, it wouldn't have broken the balance at all.

Killing off a character to "balance the gameplay" when the gameplay was already unbalanced to begin with is just not good logic. It's poor logic and I don't believe it at all.

I agree Leandra needed more screen time, but I really do think Hawke did all s/he could to investigate: the first year s/he almost caught Quentin, but then the trail went cold and s/he had the expedition to think about. In the third act s/he picks up the investigation again, even when both s/he and Aveline think it is a waste of time and underestimate the its importance. And that's one of the things that make Leandra's death even more heartwrenching; what if Aveline had taken the investigation seriously from the start, what if Hawke had found that trapdoor right away... The thing is, at the beginning, Hawke was something of a private investigator who'd been told to look into Ninette's disappearance, and he put forward all the evidence s/he found.

He had enough evidence to warrant an investigation and it's partially Aveline's fault it happened. Hawke can rightfully blame her for it happening, and as you said later on he blames himself (again, rightfully so). The investigation didn't need to turn up anything that would lead to finding the trap door or finding Quentin, but there should've been an active investigation going on.

You have a severed hand, a ring, and a bag of bones.

You have four people that saw someone fleeing from the scene of the crime, Aveline possibly among them.

By that time, an investigation should've been called for. Hawke should've been aiding the investigation as he was one of the most important people on the case.

By Act 2, Aveline was so busy ignoring the problem and saving face that the killer made strides. She only investigated the DuPuis mansion to shut Emeric up. She didn't actually want to investigate and called his findings conjecture.

Remember this is the woman that possibly saw the killer fleeing the scene of the crime. And she wants to ignore it? Say that Emeric is basing everything on conjecture? Yea okay Aveline, how'd you become Captain again? Oh right... you followed up on a hunch. You followed up on your speculation. And it actually turned up something!

She's a hypocrite. To Isabela it's acceptable because that is her character. But to her job it isn't. She's a ****** poor captain of the guard and should be demoted.

It isn't until Emeric winds up dead that she says "Oh ****...". Hell even the Templars wouldn't investigate, and this is in their jurisdiction! Emeric had to die before anyone gave a crap!

And even then, prior to his death there was more evidence to make her say "Wait... maybe I should investigate."

Gascard had demons in his mansion and said he was waiting for Quentin to show up for Alessa because he lures his victims with white lilies. While he's suspicious and should certainly not be believed at face value, she should still take that information into consideration and follow up on it. Reports of anyone that bought white lilies or sent them to noble families.

In the end though, Aveline is only part of the problem

When the investigation does finally begin, Hawke doesn't play a part in it. Hell, he doesn't even warn his own mother! There's a killer roaming the streets and he can't take the time to say "Hey mom, there's a killer out there that preys on single women, sometimes from noble families. Be careful okay?"

The White Lily Killer of Kirkwall is a menace and Hawke is possibly at risk if a female. Bethany might also be at risk. Leandra might be at risk.

If you're in a position of power to help change the city for the better because there's a clear threat to you and your family, you act on it. You don't hope that it goes away or leaves you alone.

Never mind the fact that when he picks up a note by "O", he doesn't really try to investigate who "O" is. He doesn't need to actually find out, but he should make the effort to find out.

I do believe Hawke did everything possible to catch Quentin, and what is so incredibly sad about it is s/he blames him/herself anyway

He/she should. He/she never bothered to warn his own mother about a killer roaming the streets.

Hawke and Aveline are responsible for the White Lily Killer having killed who knows how many more victims after Ninette.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 février 2012 - 10:56 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

MissOuJ wrote...


Bethany/Carver was killed off to balance the gameplay & companions available to you. Playing mage Hawke with Beth, Anders, and Merril would've been a bit too much. Also, mage Hawke has a much wider range of abilities than Beth/any other cmopanion, so one more extra mage would be pointless, really. Same with warrior Hawke vs. Carver. Plus, they both get specialisations identical to Hawke if they live - Templar for Carver and Force Mage for Beth. Two force mages in particular would pretty much break any balance the game has and make it easier still - one of the most common complaints I've heard.

Game balance means nothing in a single player game.

[alex90c]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...


Bethany/Carver was killed off to balance the gameplay & companions available to you. Playing mage Hawke with Beth, Anders, and Merril would've been a bit too much. Also, mage Hawke has a much wider range of abilities than Beth/any other cmopanion, so one more extra mage would be pointless, really. Same with warrior Hawke vs. Carver. Plus, they both get specialisations identical to Hawke if they live - Templar for Carver and Force Mage for Beth. Two force mages in particular would pretty much break any balance the game has and make it easier still - one of the most common complaints I've heard.

Game balance means nothing in a single player game.

what is this i don't even

[CrimsonZephyr]

alex90c wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...


Bethany/Carver was killed off to balance the gameplay & companions available to you. Playing mage Hawke with Beth, Anders, and Merril would've been a bit too much. Also, mage Hawke has a much wider range of abilities than Beth/any other cmopanion, so one more extra mage would be pointless, really. Same with warrior Hawke vs. Carver. Plus, they both get specialisations identical to Hawke if they live - Templar for Carver and Force Mage for Beth. Two force mages in particular would pretty much break any balance the game has and make it easier still - one of the most common complaints I've heard.

Game balance means nothing in a single player game.

what is this i don't even

Worrying about whether having two or three mages in a team at the same time is a silly concern when there is little to no competitive aspect in the game play. Game balance would be a more pressing issue if Dragon Age were - god forbid - an MMO, but in a single-player setting, limiting the number of mages in the game is quite contrived - especially since the party can have five different rogues in it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Was Hawke part of the City Guard? No, he wasn't. So he couldn't be part of the investigation, unless privately contracted, which he wasn't.

Did the City Guard have any modern day crim investigation technology? No they didn't. So they couldn't run any DNA test on the sack of bones, to confirm that they were all from the recently dead/disappeared women.

Did they see the "killer" flee the crime scene? No they didn't. Well they did, but they had absolutely no way of knowing that he was the killer at that time, or just some random dude, running scared from the appearing demons. Of course we as players knew that something fishy was going on, but the City Guard don't have the players omniscient view on the events.

All the City Guard had, was a bag of old bones (which isn't all that uncommon), and some wild claims that all recent disappearances and deaths are connected. that is not much to build a case on.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Did they see the "killer" flee the crime scene? No they didn't. Well they did, but they had absolutely no way of knowing that he was the killer at that time, or just some random dude, running scared from the appearing demons. Of course we as players knew that something fishy was going on, but the City Guard don't have the players omniscient view on the events.

The killer who ran deeper into a foundry with only one exit, into a lair with one entrance, a large and fairly obvious trapdoor hidden under a barrel? If Aveline and Hawke had spent just a few extra minutes searching that place, Aveline would have found it, and could have sent for more guards to do a sweep.

[Davillo]

Havke is on Xanax or some antidepressants or some other ish.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Was Hawke part of the City Guard? No, he wasn't. So he couldn't be part of the investigation, unless privately contracted, which he wasn't.

Irrelevant. He has influence with the city guard, which Aveline specifically gave to him. She sought him out in Act 1 and said he could garner influence with the guard.

Aveline is his friend and he now has influence within the guard, to which Aveline becomes Captain of the Guard. This cemented Hawke's influence. Therefore, he should've launched an investigation.

Aveline is willing to go to great lengths to assist her friends. She ignores the law for Isabela and changes patrols for Fenris. I think she can get off of her ass and do her job for once instead of working around it.

I don't hate Aveline, but I do hate how she is a ******-poor captain and everyone lauds her as being great. No one stays as Captain for that long if they're doing a ******-poor job at being Captain. Bioware obviously wanted her to be a good or great Captain of the Guard that upholds the law while bending the law sometimes for her friends.

They only nailed the latter, and seriously ****ed up the former.

Did the City Guard have any modern day crim investigation technology? No they didn't. So they couldn't run any DNA test on the sack of bones, to confirm that they were all from the recently dead/disappeared women.

You're right! A bag of mysterious bones turns up in an old foundry alongside a severed hand and a man with both his hands flees from the scene and that doesn't at all seem suspicious! It's completely natural for bones to just turn up like that! [/sarcasm]

It would be very obvious what type of bones they are. They'd be human. And a man fleeing from the scene is either the person that killed the people the bones belonged to or he/she knows something about who killed them.

As such, the guard is required to search for said person. Know why?

Because someone was friggin' amputated and mutilated. Possibly murdered

Not to mention the demons in the area.

Did they see the "killer" flee the crime scene? No they didn't. Well they did, but they had absolutely no way of knowing that he was the killer at that time, or just some random dude, running scared from the appearing demons. Of course we as players knew that something fishy was going on, but the City Guard don't have the players omniscient view on the events.

You do realize that demons don't appear until you step foot into the area? They weren't there from the beginning. Demons just popping up out of the ground when the party approaches screams suspicious, especially when none were anywhere near the person fleeing the scene.

You can actually see in the cutscene where you see Quentin that the place is empty, except for Hawke and company.

It isn't until they actually move through the area that you see demons.

So yea... kinda suspicious for you to just find demons as you try and pursue the man fleeing the scene.

All the City Guard had, was a bag of old bones (which isn't all that uncommon), and some wild claims that all recent disappearances and deaths are connected. that is not much to build a case on.

Sorry, this is wrong. It is enough to build a case on. Aveline has built a case on less. Much less. Like her own suspicions on Jeven. All she had was him yelling a lot, which could've been due to the stress of the job. She had no proof to back up her theories, but still she pursued her theories. And it turned up something! But she had no proof to back them up until she pursued them! Hell, it rewarded her!

She hears rumors about bandits working off of Sundermount, so she and Hawke pursue it. And it turns out to be true! But there was no proof to back it up to begin with.

She thinks Jeven isn't doing his job for some other reason. But she has no proof to back it up. She only has her theories, which while they make sense are not concrete evidence. It isn't until she finds Donnic being attacked that she has proper evidence.

And you're arguing that she shouldn't have pursued this because of a lack of sufficient evidence? You're basically defending her being a hypocrite.

And anyway, by Act 2, more then enough evidence pops up for an investigation to happen. At which point Hawke still doesn't take part in the investigation, nor warn his mother of a friggin' serial killer roaming the streets.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 février 2012 - 04:03 .

[Xilizhra]

The killer who ran deeper into a foundry with only one exit, into a lair with one entrance, a large and fairly obvious trapdoor hidden under a barrel? If Aveline and Hawke had spent just a few extra minutes searching that place, Aveline would have found it, and could have sent for more guards to do a sweep.

In-game, I think the trapdoor was magically invisible, and the foundry had windows. I think the conclusion they came to was that he fled through one of those while the party was distracted by demons, and that he disappeared down some maze of an alley, with all they had to go on for physical description being that he wore gray robes.

I admit, Aveline rather botched it in Act 2, but I don't think Hawke was incompetent. Though: what are all of the issues, preferably in list format, that Hawke could have been shown to do more on?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 février 2012 - 04:14 .

[TEWR]

and had grey hair and was balding.

Unless they have seriously horrendous vision, I think they would've seen that.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe, but that's still not much of a description. Hell, it could have been Gamlen with a different outfit.

[TEWR]

I admit, Aveline rather botched it in Act 2, but I don't think Hawke was incompetent. Though: what are all of the issues, preferably in list format, that Hawke could have been shown to do more on?

Here's what comes to mind:

Petrice

Quentin

Bethany

Meredith and/or the Rogue mages, as either one is a threat to Hawke's life in Kirkwall depending on viewpoint.

To some people, Corypheus. Not to me though.

Definitely Tallis.

================================================================

As a note to other readers...

I'm not going to get into another debate on what I wanted Hawke to do. I don't want people assuming I wanted him to be able to kill Petrice, or Meredith, or Tallis. That's simply not the case.

But inevitably, I think someone will ignore this part of my post and go "DERR you can't kill them! Why u want to kill everything!" and I'll end up unleashing hell and fire on what I really wanted to happen.

Maybe, but that's still not much of a description. Hell, it could have been Gamlen with a different outfit

True it's not much of a description, but you also have the very fact that demons were there. Which says that the man had to be a mage to control them. And Gamlen isn't a mage.

And you know when I first saw Quentin in Act 2 I thought it was Gamlen for a moment, since they kinda looked alike 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 février 2012 - 04:26 .

[HiroVoid]

I swear Kirkwall was lucky they didn't have someone like Ser Bryant there. That guy could notice when someone was carrying around a staff, and being all mage-y.

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...

I'll give you Feynriel since he's a somniari (though knowing Bioware this will probably end up being completely irrelevant),

depends on how you define irrelevant. When Feynriel goes to Tevinter, he's able to mind control a group of bandits from across the continent. No normal mage can do that.

And when he's an Abomination, he's able to make people go crazy through their dreams.

If he's ever a companion, I expect Bioware to make him one seriously powerful mage. Or at least show in cutscenes him doing some extremely powerful mage stuff that only he can do.

Hirovoid wrote...

I swear Kirkwall was lucky they didn't have someone like Ser Bryant there. That guy could notice when someone was carrying around a staff, and being all mage-y.

I'm honestly astonished at the level of incompetence inherent within Kirkwall's Templars. I'm also astonished how people can side with those very same Templars under the pretense of "keeping order".

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 février 2012 - 04:31 .

[Xilizhra]

HiroVoid wrote...

I swear Kirkwall was lucky they didn't have someone like Ser Bryant there. That guy could notice when someone was carrying around a staff, and being all mage-y.

I think in Kirkwall, mages are so repressed that it never really crosses anyone's mind for a mage to be walking around openly, so unless they're in a Circle uniform, people won't notice.

[HiroVoid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hirovoid wrote...

I swear Kirkwall was lucky they didn't have someone like Ser Bryant there. That guy could notice when someone was carrying around a staff, and being all mage-y.

I'm honestly astonished at the level of incompetence inherent within Kirkwall's Templars. I'm also astonished how people can side with those very same Templars under the pretense of "keeping order".

Thinking on it now, I think David Gaider did say that there was originally going to be something in Act I which would explain why Hawke can go around like he can, but it ended up getting cut before release.

[TEWR]

He did.

But since it was cut, it isn't canon anymore and Kirkwall's Templars are just that bad.

[HiroVoid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He did.

But since it was cut, it isn't canon anymore and Kirkwall's Templars are just that bad.

yep....I am curious what the reason was supposed to be though.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

The killer who ran deeper into a foundry with only one exit, into a lair with one entrance, a large and fairly obvious trapdoor hidden under a barrel? If Aveline and Hawke had spent just a few extra minutes searching that place, Aveline would have found it, and could have sent for more guards to do a sweep.

In-game, I think the trapdoor was magically invisible, and the foundry had windows. I think the conclusion they came to was that he fled through one of those while the party was distracted by demons, and that he disappeared down some maze of an alley, with all they had to go on for physical description being that he wore gray robes.

I admit, Aveline rather botched it in Act 2, but I don't think Hawke was incompetent. Though: what are all of the issues, preferably in list format, that Hawke could have been shown to do more on?

They didn't bother checking for open windows? Even then, they should have swept the place. Aveline spends her time ****ing around with Hawke and co. but she can't be bothered to do her policework properly. The fact that the guy sicced demons on them was pretty much a cue for them to call for back up, summon a Templar like Emeric, and sweep the place down, top to bottom.

[Xilizhra]

There are open windows all over the place, they're fairly obvious. And IIRC, the guard did sweep the foundry, and also raided Gascard's mansion on a tip from Emeric. The investigation just kept going nowhere.

[TEWR]

There are open windows all over the place, they're fairly obvious. And IIRC, the guard did sweep the foundry, and also raided Gascard's mansion on a tip from Emeric. The investigation just kept going nowhere.

I don't think they ever did sweep the foundry.

Regarding Emeric's tip, Aveline only followed up on that so Emeric would stop. She just didn't believe him and only did this as basically a gift to him. She never intended to investigate.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

There are open windows all over the place, they're fairly obvious. And IIRC, the guard did sweep the foundry, and also raided Gascard's mansion on a tip from Emeric. The investigation just kept going nowhere.

Gascard's mansion had evidence lying around all over the place, Clue-style.

"It was the blood mage, in the parlor, with the knife"

The guards, had they looked, would have found out pretty quickly. They're likely just idiotic.