Questa discussione ha avuto 703 risposte

[Karlone123]

The Qunari invasion was my favourite, the more invasion, the better.

[LobselVith8]

Setz wrote...

And this is why bioware dug themselves their own graves by allowing people so many choices in both DAO and ME1/ME2. You can't write a story with a proper ending with these many choices.

I respectfully disagree. Had the Elven Warden become Bann, maybe some of the elves could have left for Ferelden to the Denerim Alienage. If the Dwarven Warden asked for human assistance, perhaps some dwarves would have left to help re-claim the lost thaigs. If the Dalish Warden asked for the elves to be given a homeland, we could have seen some Dalish head to the Hinterlands. If the mage Warden asked for his people to be emancipated, perhaps some mages would have fled to Ferelden to seek sanctuary with him. It's not that difficult, really.

The problem is, no attempt is made to address these plotlines. It's not impossible, the writers simply don't bother with them at all. The Magi boon is turned down, and how long did it take to finally find this out? This is ignored in Awakening, this is ignored again in Witch Hunt, and the player only discovers this in Dragon Age II in the third Act (and only if Alistair was made King). That's absurd.

Setz wrote...

And because people have gotten their choices, now they want more. They want the story written EXACTLY as they'd like it to be. They want every option in every situation. I Should be able to kill anders when I think he's up to something, I should be able to save leandra by keeping her indoors all the time, I should be able to kill Lassarus or attack the Qunari leader before he revolted.

I don't think it's unreasonable to want our protagonist to display intelligence, rather than be depicted as a buffoon by the plot railroad. The kind of plot restraints that have Hawke discover a hand-written letter from Quentin's accomplice, that Hawke never follows up on. To me, Hawke comes off as lazy.

If Hawke encounters Sister Petrice, and she reveals that she wants to ignite a religious war between the Andrastians and the Qunari through the murder of innocent people, why should Hawke do nothing? Petrice ends up murdering people, and it's no surprise because she told Hawke what she was going to do years prior. Hawke had a chance to stop her, but didn't. If Cullen is taking Bethany away to the Circle of Kirkwall, where Hawke knows how mages have been made tranquil illegally, why does he simply stand there like a furniture piece? Hawke has already witnessed what happened to Karl. Why would he simply stand there and risk Bethany becoming another Karl? What kind of brother (or sister) would do nothing to try to help their little sister? When Meredith becomes the dictator over Kirkwall, why does Hawke apparently do nothing about it for three entire years? Why does it take Orsino to coerce Hawke to get involved in this situation?

The problem with Larius and Tallis is that they are examples of Hawke doing nothing when he has the opportunity to do something, and that's pretty much the crux of the problem that some people have with Hawke. I have no interest in a story where the protagonist comes off as lazy and incompetent.

Setz wrote...

Hawke isn't you, he's a character that's written and played by you. The choices he has are the ones he's thought about. If he missed a choice you think he could have taken it's because he didn't think of it.

Doing nothing makes it difficult for me to care about the protagonist, especially when it happens in situations where an actual human being might decide to act rather than mimic a piece of furniture.

Setz wrote...

And taking an actual rpg look at it, he isn't sitting there while you decide a course of action, the games "paused" and he has to think on the go.

When insane and stupid Grace is spending minutes talking about her intention of killing the hostage, and finally does kill someone after a long period of talking about killing someone, it's not simply an issue of the game on "pause."

[Dabrikishaw]

Hawke isn't a protagonist who "doesn't make perfect choices." Hawke is a protagonist who stands there and watches bad things happen while doing nothing.

Making an effort and failing is one thing; doing nothing is another.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I was sick of playing the hero anyway. I had a right laugh playing the arse that buggered things up for everyone. It was something new to roleplay. While most rpg heroes have to save the world from some unspeakable evil, Hawke just wants to be rich and famous.

[hussey 92]

Hawke also mistakenly freed Flemeth.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

hussey 92 wrote...

Hawke also mistakenly freed Flemeth.

I don't think that counts as a mistake. Hawke helped Asha'Bellanar on purpose. Asha'Bellanar is more of an ally than an antagonist anyway. She saves the warden, she saves Hawke, maybe she'll save the next game's protagonist too.

Faerunner wrote...

I can understand wanting to step away from the "hero of humble origins that saves the world" archetype, but switching over to "spoiled, selfish, lazy, incompetent, ineffectual boob from an equally vile noble family that ****s **** up for everyone else" is not the right way to go about it in my book.

I know different people have different tastes, but personally? If I'm going to be railroaded into playing one pre-set character (in an RPG game), then I need the protagonist to be a person I actually like, (especially since it's a person I'm supposed to BE.)

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Hawke isn't spoiled or lazy, there are plenty of spoiled, lazy nobles in Kirkwall but Hawke isn't one of them, she actually had to work for what she had. Hawke can be selfish or she can be charitable. Hawke gets the chance to help a lot of people, she may not be saving the world she saves lives, those people no doubt would consider her a hero.

One of the things I really liked about DA2's story was how the Seeker has the complete wrong idea about the Champion. At a glance it seems like Hawke is the cause of all that happened in DA2 but really she just got swept up in it.

[wsandista]

Yes the "hero saves the day" archetype is getting quite old. Lets stick with the completely new "rags to riches rise to power" story that forces us to play an inactive PC. Works so much better, which is why I think DA2 sold more than DAO and was received so much better.

[hussey 92]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

Hawke also mistakenly freed Flemeth.

I don't think that counts as a mistake. Hawke helped Asha'Bellanar on purpose. Asha'Bellanar is more of an ally than an antagonist anyway. She saves the warden, she saves Hawke, maybe she'll save the next game's protagonist too.

[

Hawke had no idea what he was doing.  And everything Flemeth does proves to be self serving.  She helped the Warden for the god baby and she helped Hawke so she would be saved later. 

Also she was going to steal her daughters body, pretty evil stuff.  I see her as an antagonist who just wants to live forever.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

wsandista wrote...

Yes the "hero saves the day" archetype is getting quite old. Lets stick with the completely new "rags to riches rise to power" story that forces us to play an inactive PC. Works so much better, which is why I think DA2 sold more than DAO and was received so much better.

I don't think DA:O or DA2 had particularly clever or original stories. Personally I liked that Hawke wasn't a big goddamn hero like the Warden or Shepard, but other people didn't like it. Hawke could never compete with the Warden anyway. The Warden stopped the Blight, that's pretty tough to top. With the Blight over it made sense for Hawke's story to be smaller, more personal. The world can't need saving all the time.

Obviously DA2 did some things wrong, there are some pretty glaring plot holes that were pointed out in this thread. But I think DA2 gets more stick than it deserves. I enjoyed the game, I had fun playing as Hawke so I'm willing to overlook the things that didn't work.

hussey 92 wrote...

Hawke had no idea what he was doing. And everything Flemeth does proves to be self serving. She helped the Warden for the god baby and she helped Hawke so she would be saved later.

Also she was going to steal her daughters body, pretty evil stuff. I see her as an antagonist who just wants to live forever.

Hawke didn't know exactly what she was doing no. But she knew she was doing something more than just delivering an amulet, she even says "there must be a catch" (well Sarcastic Hawke does anyway).

It is true that Asha'Bellanar didn't just help the Warden or Hawke out of the goodness of her heart, she obviously has her reasons. But she does still help, she in no way hinders Hawke or the Warden (unless the Warden tries to kill her) so she really is more of an ally than an antagonist (most allies only help because it benefits them in some way).

We really don't know if what Morrigan tells us is true or not. So far we've only really heard rumours about how evil the Witch of the Wilds is, we've not seen any real evidence of this though.

Modificata da Sarcastic Tasha, 10 giugno 2012 - 11:14 .

[hussey 92]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

We really don't know if what Morrigan tells us is true or not. So far we've only really heard rumours about how evil the Witch of the Wilds is, we've not seen any real evidence of this though.

What Morrigan said was actually confirmed when you found the Robes of Possession in Flemeths hut.

Robes description - "The original intent of these robes is clear: a "welcome home" present from Flemeth, designed to sap Morrigan's will and ease the ancient sorceress's possession of her daughter"

Modificata da hussey 92, 11 giugno 2012 - 12:10 .

[wsandista]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Yes the "hero saves the day" archetype is getting quite old. Lets stick with the completely new "rags to riches rise to power" story that forces us to play an inactive PC. Works so much better, which is why I think DA2 sold more than DAO and was received so much better.

I don't think DA:O or DA2 had particularly clever or original stories. Personally I liked that Hawke wasn't a big goddamn hero like the Warden or Shepard, but other people didn't like it. Hawke could never compete with the Warden anyway. The Warden stopped the Blight, that's pretty tough to top. With the Blight over it made sense for Hawke's story to be smaller, more personal. The world can't need saving all the time.

Obviously DA2 did some things wrong, there are some pretty glaring plot holes that were pointed out in this thread. But I think DA2 gets more stick than it deserves. I enjoyed the game, I had fun playing as Hawke so I'm willing to overlook the things that didn't work.

the problem with making a more personal story is that the PC is either railroaded or a pre-set. i find both options less desirable to what DAO offered.

[DPSSOC]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Yes the "hero saves the day" archetype is getting quite old. Lets stick with the completely new "rags to riches rise to power" story that forces us to play an inactive PC. Works so much better, which is why I think DA2 sold more than DAO and was received so much better.

I don't think DA:O or DA2 had particularly clever or original stories. Personally I liked that Hawke wasn't a big goddamn hero like the Warden or Shepard, but other people didn't like it. Hawke could never compete with the Warden anyway. The Warden stopped the Blight, that's pretty tough to top. With the Blight over it made sense for Hawke's story to be smaller, more personal. The world can't need saving all the time.

And that'd be great, it would have made for an interesting story, if Hawke did anything.  My problem with Hawke is that he just stumbles through the game completely oblivious to painfully obvious danger and unwilling to act on anything.

In Act 1 we track down a murderer and Hawke can vow to find him, cut to Act 2 and not only has Hawke not even tried he needs to be freaking reminded about it.  It's things like this that make Hawke a bad protagonist, the complete lack of ability to ever act on the things we find out.  Furthermore since we're never given a reason why we can't or don't act on these things it just make Hawke come across as a complete and utter moron. 

Actually Hawke reminds me of Inspector Gadget, completely oblivious, utterly dense, and only ever manages success because he just happens to trip over it.

[Chouchoo1956]

There's an author's quote that goes something like: "if you love your characters, make them suffer". Hawke is groping his way through his journey and make mistakes. C'est normal.

[Illegitimus]

That argument works for why Hawke can't kill Meredith in Acts I and II, not with Sister Petrice who is standing in a hovel with one, single templar at her side. Petrice tried to have Hawke killed, and she is trying to start a conflict that will involve the deaths of innocent people. Hawke could kill Petrice because he wants revenge, or because he wants to save lives, since Petrice wants to start a conflict between Andrastians and the Qunari.

I don't see a reason for my apostate Hawke not to kill Petrice in "Shepherding Wolves." I'm not suggesting that Hawke should have pulled a Neo and killed every templar in the Gallows in order to get to Meredith through the magic of bullet time, I'm addressing that Hawke didn't kill a woman in a hovel who he knows is trying to start a religious war, when no one would have known that Hawke killed Sister Petrice and Ser Varnell.

 

 

And unfortunately…there's no good reason for it.  WHy is Petrice there in a hovel waiting for someone who, if things had gone as planned, would be dead?  Why not go back to the Chantry where killing her would be really pushing it?  

[Catilina]

And unfortunately…there's no good reason for it.  WHy is Petrice there in a hovel waiting for someone who, if things had gone as planned, would be dead?  Why not go back to the Chantry where killing her would be really pushing it?  

 

Perhaps to pay Hawke (I do not remember, when she pay for the favor).

(And, I suppose, Hawke was not murder Sister Petrice, because s/he is not a killer.)

[BSpud]

Anyone ever notice that Raiders of the Lost Ark's plot is propelled by Indiana Jones' constant failure? It's pretty neat.

[Illegitimus]

Anyone ever notice that Raiders of the Lost Ark's plot is propelled by Indiana Jones' constant failure? It's pretty neat.

 

 

Yeah but at least the world wasn't ultimately a worse place for his efforts.  

[BSpud]

Probably be a lot worse without him.

[Qun00]

As Kirkwall would be without Hawke.

[ThomasBlaine]

As Kirkwall would be without Hawke.

 

Hmm. Qunari successfully conquer Kirkwall. Orlais launches Exalted March against Kirkwall. Kirkwall gets cleaned up, no Mage/Templar war. Kirkwall mages probably suffer fates worse than death. No red lyrium. Kirkwall is repopulated by sane people.

 

Seems like a mixed bag to me.

[Catilina]

Hmm. Qunari successfully conquer Kirkwall. Orlais launches Exalted March against Kirkwall. Kirkwall gets cleaned up, no Mage/Templar war. Kirkwall mages probably suffer fates worse than death. No red lyrium. Kirkwall is repopulated by sane people.

 

Seems like a mixed bag to me.

 

On the other hand:

 

Q: Isabela is able to steal the Koslun, if there is no Hawke?

Orlais not sure launches Exalted March against Kirkwall.

Anders is in Kirkwall also without Hawke.

Hawke did not organized the expedition to Deeproads.

The veil are weak abowe Kirkwall. Hawke is not responsible for it.

 

"Did you think, you mattered, Hawke? Did you think, anything, you ever did, mattered?" 

 

Hawke does not matter, really. (S/He only important only his fellows and his family, and one-two ppl..)

 

Again, on the other hand:

 

S/He freed Corypheus! (Against his/her will...)

 

"That's what happens, when you try to change things. Things change. You can't always control, how."

 

Hawke is my favorite hero.

It shows that no one "matter", and yet everyone is important. It shows that you can do things, but you can not always control it. Brillant.

[Beerfish]

-Mistakenly and unknowingly released the lyrium idol which all but creates the central antagonist and nearly destroys the city.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps Anders create a mage/templar civil war throughout Thedas.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps and even allows Corypheus to escape and likely infiltrate the Grey Wardens.
-Mistakenly
and unknowingly prevents a list of Qunari spies from being obtained,
likely making the eventual qunari invasion all the worse.

It was annoying at first, but this has gotten to be just comical. I have to wonder if Bioware even realizes what a joke Hawke is.  I'm not sure I've ever seen an RPG character railroaded so much into being a complete stooge or stepstool for other characters to walk all over.

I tend to agree with your post.  #1 can be forgiven imo because he really has no way of knowing what it would lead to and Bartrand pulled the double cross.  #2 can be forgiven because in a similar vane it is somewhat of a plausible scenario.

 

#2 and #3 are terrible examples of railroading, a good many people knew what Anders was possibly up to though perhaps not the scale but were not allowed to do jack.  #3 was equally as bad if not worse.  The ending to the Tallis expansion stunk.

[GoldenGail3]

Hmm. Qunari successfully conquer Kirkwall. Orlais launches Exalted March against Kirkwall. Kirkwall gets cleaned up, no Mage/Templar war. Kirkwall mages probably suffer fates worse than death. No red lyrium. Kirkwall is repopulated by sane people.
 
Seems like a mixed bag to me.

I pefer this opotion in all honesty. Seems a great deal better than dealing with DAI's aftermath.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Am I the only one who noticed the major necro?