Questa discussione ha avuto 703 risposte

[jlb524]

jamesp81 wrote...

We all need to get the "metagaming = bad" stick out of our asses.  Every single RPG is metagamed, every single time.  Deal with it.

Yeah, people meta-game and that's their business.

But it's seems ridiculous to complain about a protagonist not knowing something that's obvious to the player.  If you're going to meta-game, don't complain about these type of things.

[jamesp81]

I get why some people like Hawke.  He's like us in one respect.  He's a normal guy that gets caught up in some crazy stuff.  And like most normal people, things tend to not go well for him on a regular basis.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T PLAY GAMES SO THAT THEY CAN BE ORDINARY.

The point of entertainment is to get away from ordinary.

As I said earlier, DA2 in general and Hawke in particular both get a pass because DA2 was more about establishing major world events that needed to happen, regardless of player choices.  The hero in the concluding title, however, should bear little resemblance to Hawke's ordinariness.

[whykikyouwhy]

@OP - Actually, I didn't find Hawke ineffectual or counter-productive. My point was that things like Corypheus escaping (potentially possessing a Warden) are interpretations of the player. Hawke, having seen all manner of weirdness in Thedas, including mind control (the apostitutes, for example) may not find Larius or Janeka's post-battle behavior odd. It's the player who puts those pieces together, those clues.

I felt that my Hawke got quite a bit of positive work done during her time in Kirkwall. But perhaps that just speaks to how I play.

[Nerevar-as]

Hawke may have worked as an inneffectual character if that had been the idea. But what I got from the game was that how pointless Hawke was isn´t intended. From the marketing to Flemeth´s words whenever she sees Hawke points towards someone whose actions will shape the world. Even the end, with Varrick and Cassandra commenting how Hawke´s presence ignated the mage rebellion despite making no sense (IMHO). This is the main reason I don´t like the story much despite often liking tales where the main characters are hopeless to affect the outcome.

[jamesp81]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Sorry, but yes we do.  It is not physically possible to not have some element of meta-gaming.  That has never happened, no matter how hard people try.  It will continue to never happen, no matter how hard people will try.

I didn't say I was 100% successful, but part of the reason I play these games is to put myself in the shoes of my character and make decisions based on what they know, and what they can predict, because to do otherwise isn't as much fun for me.

I mean, sometimes I engage genre savvy mode because I do not want to miss content, and I recognize that's metagaming - however, I wouldn't use that as a basis for criticism of a game protagonist because I'd be aware that is what I was doing.

jamesp81 wrote...

The smart thing to do is write the narrative with that in mind, and not pretend it doesn't exist.

No it isn't.

So, the writers SHOULD pretend meta-gaming doesn't exist?  That's insanely foolish.

[Giubba]

ThePasserby wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Stop. Metagaming.

Just because YOU, the PLAYER, have the suspcion that Larius was possessed IN NO WAY means that Hawke had any way of knowing, proving, or even guessing at it. Yes, okay, so to make you supa-happy, the game could have given you the option to kill Larius.

But honestly? There's no in-game reason to do so unless you're a jerk. because, IN GAME, Hawke has no way to prove or know that Larius is possessed. None.

You must be role playing a pretty dumb Hawke then, I suppose?

Can i remember you that grey warden keep quite secretive all that regard joining their order and the way they are able to slay archdeamon.?

So Hawke without knowing anything about the process of trasmigration of "soul" that is the basic concept of killing an archdeamon should have know that killing a creature that is not even recognizable as  a darkspawn could  led to the possession of an infected GW ?

I didn't know that clairvoyance was a spell included in the game

[MigoTheGIgo]

Hawke wasn't as ineffective as so many talk about.

What would have happened if the Qunari had not been stopped? The Entirety of Kirkwall would either have been razed or converted.
If Hawke had not chosen to aid whomever he/she chooses at the end, the mages would either have been horribly slaugthered, or the battles would have torn Kirkwall utterly apart.
About the Lyrium Idol: Aveline even mentions this. Yes, Hawke got ahead, but the money poured into Kirkwall upsets the balance. Is Hawke really to blame for this?

Hawke is not "just" getting walked over by NPCs. If you consider it, his actions directly influences the lives of thousands. BUT, he does not always succeed; they do not always have the intended consequences. He is not all knowing, or all powerful. But, he/she tries.

For the same reason as I dislike Superman (Weaknesses and flaws are as interesting, if not more so, than strengths and virtues), I like Hawke.

About Larius/Janeka. Hawke has little to no knowledge of Archdemons or the taint. If someone is to blame, it is the sibling (if a Grey Warden), or Anders. And even then; Corypheus is something that has either never been encountered before, or only been encountered once before. And he is certainly something that is barely, if at all, understood. What we know, and what Hawke knows, is very, very different measures, since we had the option of playing through the Grey Warden experience in Origins.

[TheJediSaint]

Oh? This again? If Hawke were as ineffectual as people seem to claim, then he/she would be DEAD. Dragon Age 2's storyline can be summed up as a series of increasingly dire crises where fate keeps putting Hawke right in the middle of.

Hawke's heroism comes from his/her ability to not only survive these crises, but resolve them when no one else could. An ineffectual character would not have survived the Blight, much less be the person everyone turns to to resolve the Qunari and Mage-Templar Crises.

It's fair to say that Hawke is reactive, but that's not the same as ineffectual. Hawke reactions are often was end up resolving one conflict or another.

[TheCreeper]

The issue is Hawke isn't like The Grey Warden or Commander Shepard. We play those people during the middle of a crisis, we play hawke as they try to live there life and become caught up in something greater than themselves. Hawke had no way of knowning that the idol was down there and what it would it would do, and once Meredith had the idol the Mage-Templar conflict was pretty much going to happen no matter what. There are some things that one person simply can not stop on their own, even if they are a PC.

[jlb524]

jamesp81 wrote...

I get why some people like Hawke.  He's like us in one respect.  He's a normal guy that gets caught up in some crazy stuff.  And like most normal people, things tend to not go well for him on a regular basis.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T PLAY GAMES SO THAT THEY CAN BE ORDINARY.

The point of entertainment is to get away from ordinary.

Hawke is ordinary?  Normal just like me?

[Addai]

Lady_Aescwyn wrote...

I think this is the brilliant difference/contrast between the Warden and Hawke.

The Warden IS the hero that changes the world. Every descision the Warden makes changes the world around him/her. Those descisions may not always turn out the way the Warden wanted (ex. a goody-two-shoes Warden picking Harrowmont), but the Warden knows that s/he is in a position to change things for better or worse and that every choice s/he make will have lasting consequences.

By contrast, Hawke is just a (fairly) normal wo/man struggling to stay afloat in the very chaos that the Warden is fighting. The Warden has a mission: Build an army. Stop the Blight. Save the world. Hawke's mission? Survive.
Hawke doen't realize how far-reaching his/her descisions are. That's what surprises Cassandra so much at the end of the game. She wanted someone to blame for everything that has happened and she went into the interrogation of Varric already believing that Hawke did everything s/he did on purpose. When is is revealed that everything was a crazy conga line of unforseen mistakes, Cassandra is clearly distressed because everything she believed was completely wrong.

I've explained this before and I'm not sure why it's not just evident from the game itself, but- the issue with Hawke is not that she tries to do something and fails.  It's that she does not react as a (to my mind) competent, logical and responsible person would.  Rather - she does not at least have the option to operate in that manner.  I guess it might be considered edgy storytelling to force a player to play a wisecracking/ assholish/ lame buffoon, but is anyone really surprised that people don't react well to this?

I suppose it's "self insertion" to want to play a PC who's minimally competent and responsible.

Now she needs to find Hawke and hope that the Champion of Kirkewall can set everything right again.

The mystery is why she would ever think that.  It makes Cassandra out to be an idiot, too.  Hawke ruined everything she touched, but this is the one person Cass is desperate to find to turn it all around?

Do seekers snort lyrium?

I'm thinking that, come Dragon age 3, Hawke will take up the mantle of the Hero. After stumbling through the second game and unintentionally fascilitating a war, Hawke will step up Warden/Shepard style and put the smackdown on the mage-templar war. This time, there won't be so many of the mistaken, unintentional descisions.

We already know Hawke is out for DA3.  That is the best news I've heard out of the DA2 aftermath.  Though my question to you would be- if the way Hawke was presented in DA2 is so awesome, then why do you want the character turned into a Warden clone?

Modificata da Addai67, 14 ottobre 2011 - 06:13 .

[TheJediSaint]

jlb524 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I get why some people like Hawke.  He's like us in one respect.  He's a normal guy that gets caught up in some crazy stuff.  And like most normal people, things tend to not go well for him on a regular basis.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T PLAY GAMES SO THAT THEY CAN BE ORDINARY.

The point of entertainment is to get away from ordinary.

Hawke is ordinary?  Normal just like me?

How may dragon's have you slain in the last ten years?

[Zjarcal]

jlb524 wrote...

Hawke is ordinary?  Normal just like me?

What, you don't go around casting spells or riding dragons on your everyday life? FOR SHAME!

[ThePasserby]

Giubba1985 wrote...


Can i remember you that grey warden keep quite secretive all that regard joining their order and the way they are able to slay archdeamon.?

So Hawke without knowing anything about the process of trasmigration of "soul" that is the basic concept of killing an archdeamon should have know that killing a creature that is not even recognizable as  a darkspawn could  led to the possession of an infected GW ?

I didn't know that clairvoyance was a spell included in the game

And Hawke doesn't sense anything fishy about the changed demeanors of Janeka or the addled Warden to follow up on? Just be the credulous Hawke? You need clairvoyance to smell a rat about that?

[mesmerizedish]

jamesp81 wrote...

So, the writers SHOULD pretend meta-gaming doesn't exist?  That's insanely foolish.

No it's not. I want the NFL to pretend people who suck at football don't exist. I want BioWare to pretend that people who suck at roleplaying don't exist.

[jlb524]

TheJediSaint wrote...
How may dragon's have you slain in the last ten years?

Just one...and it was a baby.

[Sunnie]

ThePasserby wrote...

You enjoy being taken for a ride by Tallis, and not allowed to even respond, I gather?

I wish Tallis would have taken me for a ride! /uploads_user/1070000/1069890/80753.gif
That kiss just wasn't enough!

[WhiteKnyght]

b09boy wrote...

-Mistakenly and unknowingly released the lyrium idol which all but creates the central antagonist and nearly destroys the city.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps Anders create a mage/templar civil war throughout Thedas.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps and even allows Corypheus to escape and likely infiltrate the Grey Wardens.
-Mistakenly
and unknowingly prevents a list of Qunari spies from being obtained,
likely making the eventual qunari invasion all the worse.

It was annoying at first, but this has gotten to be just comical. I have to wonder if Bioware even realizes what a joke Hawke is.  I'm not sure I've ever seen an RPG character railroaded so much into being a complete stooge or stepstool for other characters to walk all over.

You must have missed the whole fate/destiny moral that's made by Flemeth early on in the game.

Flemeth wondered if meeting Hawke was fate or chance. Well I say Hawke represents fate, while The Warden from Origins represents chance.

Hawke is the key to making fated events transpire.

And btw, you can actually choose not to help Anders gather the ******/crap crystals and drakestone and distract Elthina for his bomb. That happens regardless of any and all input by Hawke.

[Zjarcal]

ThePasserby wrote...

You enjoy being taken for a ride by Tallis, and not allowed to even respond, I gather?

She can gag me if she wants for that ride, so long as she takes me for one!

Sunnie22 wrote...
I wish Tallis would have taken me for a ride! 
That kiss just wasn't enough!

IT WASN'T!!! 

[Anyroad2]

Lady_Aescwyn wrote...
Hawke is just a (fairly) normal wo/man struggling to stay afloat in the very chaos that the Warden is fighting. The Warden has a mission: Build an army. Stop the Blight. Save the world. Hawke's mission? Survive.
Hawke doen't realize how far-reaching his/her descisions are. That's what surprises Cassandra so much at the end of the game. She wanted someone to blame for everything that has happened and she went into the interrogation of Varric already believing that Hawke did everything s/he did on purpose. When is is revealed that everything was a crazy conga line of unforseen mistakes, Cassandra is clearly distressed because everything she believed was completely wrong.

Nailed it.

It amazes me how many people seem to have missed the point of the entire story of DA2. Frankly, I think thats why a lot of people are upset about this game.

[Spartansfan8888]

Sunnie22 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

You enjoy being taken for a ride by Tallis, and not allowed to even respond, I gather?

I wish Tallis would have taken me for a ride! /uploads_user/1070000/1069890/80753.gif
That kiss just wasn't enough!

You can kiss her? Maybe I just didn't pick enough flirty options ha

[AtreiyaN7]

ThePasserby wrote...

It is puzzling why some find it fun to play a protagonist as inept as Hawke.

I can understand the writers favouring certain NPCs over the PC and have them pull a fast one on Hawke. Not a qaulity I'd admire on a game writer, but understandable. But why players enjoy playing a bystander is beyond me.

Really? I don't find the character particularly inept. Ineptitude would imply being a complete failure at accomplishing one's tasks/goals. Hawke accomplished his/her goals. There are plenty of intelligent, sensible people who get fooled by their friends and lovers (and politicians for that matter). Would you call someone who doesn't recognize their spouse is cheating on them inept? There might be some degree of naivete involved or willful blindness, but it's not incompetence or ineptitude.

To address one of the points the OP listed as "proof" of Hawke's supposed ineptitude, let's discuss that lyrium idol specifically. How could anyone who doesn't specialize in the study of arcane objects even be AWARE of its dangers or its significance? Even a mage couldn't actually know about it until they got close enough to examine it I imagine. This artifact was from a primordial thaig - a place very few people have been that not even dwarves know very much about themselves.

The lyrium idol was a matter of crcumstances beyond anyone's control. The influence the idol exerted on Bartrand was the result of his exposure to it. Bartrand, as far as I can tell, certainly did not set out on the expedition with a grand plan to murder his brother and everyone else to keep it for himself. And if Hawke was a fool in this situation, then how about Varric? He was Bartrand's brother and knew him the best. If Varric didn't see it coming (and he couldn't possibly have known either - again, because this idol influenced Bartrand and twisted his desires upon his exposure to it), I don't know how Hawke was supposed to suss it out.

Just because we players have a sense of bad juju incoming thanks to our being such bright boys and girls, that doesn't make the character incompetent. And being a bystander would imply that Hawke does nothing but sit around twiddling his or her thumbs. I distinctly remember running around and actually participating in the events that were unfolding. Sometimes you don't control the events that swirl around you and you just have to react to what happens. The world isn't always under your direct control.

[TheJediSaint]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

b09boy wrote...

-Mistakenly and unknowingly released the lyrium idol which all but creates the central antagonist and nearly destroys the city.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps Anders create a mage/templar civil war throughout Thedas.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps and even allows Corypheus to escape and likely infiltrate the Grey Wardens.
-Mistakenly
and unknowingly prevents a list of Qunari spies from being obtained,
likely making the eventual qunari invasion all the worse.

It was annoying at first, but this has gotten to be just comical. I have to wonder if Bioware even realizes what a joke Hawke is.  I'm not sure I've ever seen an RPG character railroaded so much into being a complete stooge or stepstool for other characters to walk all over.

You must have missed the whole fate/destiny moral that's made by Flemeth early on in the game.

Flemeth wondered if meeting Hawke was fate or chance. Well I say Hawke represents fate, while The Warden from Origins represents chance.

Hawke is the key to making fated events transpire.

And btw, you can actually choose not to help Anders gather the ******/crap crystals and drakestone and distract Elthina for his bomb. That happens regardless of any and all input by Hawke.

Hell, you can go as far as to WARN Elthina and Cullen about Anders.  

[Lady_Aescwyn]

Wulfram wrote...

Lady_Aescwyn wrote...

I'm thinking that, come Dragon age 3, Hawke will take up the mantle of the Hero

Hawke isn't going to be the protagonist in DA3.

Well, damn. There goes all my hopes of Hawke being able to make up for all the mistakes in DA2.

I'm a little a lot late on information about DA3. I need to go find more information. >__>

No. Scratch that. I need to get a life.

[jamesp81]

jlb524 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I get why some people like Hawke.  He's like us in one respect.  He's a normal guy that gets caught up in some crazy stuff.  And like most normal people, things tend to not go well for him on a regular basis.

MOST PEOPLE DON'T PLAY GAMES SO THAT THEY CAN BE ORDINARY.

The point of entertainment is to get away from ordinary.

Hawke is ordinary?  Normal just like me?

Not entirely, that's true.  He's far closer to being a normal person than the Warden or Shepard, though.  He's very reactive and often not as effective as those other two.

He's got much better snark dialogue though, credit where it's due and all that.