703 replies to this topic

[The dead fish]

MigoTheGIgo wrote...

Leave Hawke alone :<

b09boy wrote...

-Mistakenly and unknowingly released the lyrium idol which all but creates the central antagonist and nearly destroys the city.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps Anders create a mage/templar civil war throughout Thedas.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps and even allows Corypheus to escape and likely infiltrate the Grey Wardens.
-Mistakenly
and unknowingly prevents a list of Qunari spies from being obtained,
likely making the eventual qunari invasion all the worse.

It was
annoying at first, but this has gotten to be just comical. I have to
wonder if Bioware even realizes what a joke Hawke is.  I'm not sure I've ever seen an RPG character railroaded so much into being a complete stooge or stepstool for other characters to walk all over.

Perhaps the lesson from this game is "Sometimes, life gives you crap, and all you can do is try not to be swallowed up by it". Which is an entirely valid lesson. There is a difference between being a hero and being a god. Guess which one Hawke is ^^ 

1 - I don't give a crap about lessons of life. That's not the role of video games.

2- A video game is NOT a format to be learned what is the life, what's wrong in life, or whatever. you learn absolutely nothing in a video game. There are no valid lessons. Video games are only useful for entertainment and to invent a world in which to project with his thoughts, ideas, opinions.. ( especially rpg )  

 This is the way to the stupidity to let itself to learn something from a video game, developed by the creators and their views that they have instilled in their production.  You interact, you witness something you love ( or don't ) or  you prefer, that's all.

Edited by Sylvianus, 14 October 2011 - 07:04 PM.

[upsettingshorts]

ThePasserby wrote...

And Hawke doesn't sense anything fishy about the changed demeanors of Janeka or the addled Warden to follow up on? Just be the credulous Hawke? You need clairvoyance to smell a rat about that?

This entire thread needs to go look up dramatic irony, come back and reconsider their arguments. 

And yes, "I don't want dramatic irony in my roleplaying games" would be a valid argument.  Dramatic irony requires that the audience and the protagonist be considered separately and not everyone wants to play a cRPG that way.

But that is what it is, it's not meant to be an indicment of Hawke's powers of perception or decisionmaking. 

There are examples where, for several reasons, Hawke can't do something that would seem obvious to us players as a legitimately reasonable course of action, like turn Anders in to Cullen.  These are issues with the writing I'd be happy to discuss and address, but they are indicative of problems with BioWares development process that lead to some really clumsy but-thou-musts and, I'd argue, not indicative of Hawke's relative worth as a protagonist.

Edited by Upsettingshorts, 14 October 2011 - 07:07 PM.

[Wulfram]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Really? I don't find the character particularly inept. Ineptitude would imply being a complete failure at accomplishing one's tasks/goals. Hawke accomplished his/her goals.

Lets have a look at a Hawke's goals.  Of course, different Hawkes have different goals, but I think these are pretty normal ones

Prologue:  Get my family safely out of Kirkwall. edit: Freudian slip here.  Should be get my family safely to Kirkwall
Outcome:  Carver died

Act 1:  Gain the wealth and power to protect Bethany
Outcome:  Bethany is taken to the Circle (Or dead, or a Warden)

Act 2:  Prevent a war between Kirkwall and the Qunari, save mother
Outcome:  Mother dead, Kirkwall devastated by Qunari attack

Act 3:  Save the Circle Mages
Outcome:  Circle is annulled, Hawke runs away.

Edited by Wulfram, 14 October 2011 - 07:12 PM.

[Anyroad2]

ThePasserby wrote...

Does anything you wrote up there invalidate my rebuttal of "Hawke accomplishes his goals"?

Aside from Hawke surviving, which is a goal of his...

Act 1: Makes enough money to join the Deeproads expidition. Gets out of the mess down there and becomes wealthy, allowing him to buy back his mothers old home.

Act 2: Despite trying (or not trying) to keep peace between Kirkwall Politicians and the Qunari... the Qunari are eventually dealt with by Hawke. Much of Kirkwall and many (if not most) of its nobles are saved. Hawke becomes Champion and gains pretty significant influence with the people of Kirkwall.

Act 3: I posted this before. Any side that Hawke joins benefits greatly because of Hawks assistance. Wether it be the Templars and restoring order, or the Mages and their freedom.

[ThePasserby]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

This entire thread needs to go look up dramatic irony, come back and reconsider their arguments. 

And yes, "I don't want dramatic irony in my roleplaying games" would be a valid argument.  Dramatic irony requires that the audience and the protagonist be considered separately and not everyone wants to play a cRPG that way.

But that is what it is, it's not meant to be an indicment of Hawke's powers of perception or decisionmaking. 

There are examples where, for several reasons, Hawke can't do something that would seem obvious to us players as a legitimately reasonable course of action, like turn Anders in to Cullen.  These are issues with the writing I'd be happy to discuss and address, but they are indicative of problems with BioWares development process that lead to some really clumsy but-thou-musts and, I'd argue, not indicative of Hawke's relative worth as a protagonist.

However, Hawke's worth as a protagonist is directly a result of Bioware's development team's failings.

We cannot discuss Bioware's writing team without getting deep into speculation as we know little of their goings-on. But we have the game that everyone here has access to to talk about. And yes, I don't need dramatic irony to remind me of how ineffectual Hawke is.

[ThePasserby]

Anyroad2 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Does anything you wrote up there invalidate my rebuttal of "Hawke accomplishes his goals"?

Aside from Hawke surviving, which is a goal of his...

Act 1: Makes enough money to join the Deeproads expidition. Gets out of the mess down there and becomes wealthy, allowing him to buy back his mothers old home.

Act 2: Despite trying (or not trying) to keep peace between Kirkwall Politicians and the Qunari... the Qunari are eventually dealt with by Hawke. Much of Kirkwall and many (if not most) of its nobles are saved. Hawke becomes Champion and gains pretty significant influence with the people of Kirkwall.

Act 3: I posted this before. Any side that Hawke joins benefits greatly because of Hawks assistance. Wether it be the Templars and restoring order, or the Mages and their freedom.

The poster above you has dealt with this very succinctly.

[upsettingshorts]

ThePasserby wrote...

However, Hawke's worth as a protagonist is directly a result of Bioware's development team's failings.

I am saying that by using dramatic irony, they give first person gamers the impression that Hawke is exactly what you say he is, but that's because those gamers see the audience and the protagonist as the same thing as they are treating Hawke like an avatar.  But, because they're clearly using dramatic irony, it's not how BioWare sees them.  Hawke and the audience are different, and DA2 is very much an explicitly third person game.

ThePasserby wrote...

And yes, I don't need dramatic irony to remind me of how ineffectual Hawke is.

You couldn't have possibly missed my point more completely.

Edited by Upsettingshorts, 14 October 2011 - 07:19 PM.

[Namevah]

Sylvianus wrote...
1 - I don't give a crap about lessons of life. That's not the role of video games.

Yeah . . . I'm sure people said the same thing about movies, too. And maybe even books.

As for Hawke, people have already vocalized my opinion, and done so in a much more elegent manner so I'm just going to say that I like that Hawke isn't seemingly perfect like BioWare's other protagonists. The excecution wasn't the greatest, but that doesn't change what I like about Hawke as a character. 

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather play as Holden Caulfield than the Terminator, assuming that comparison makes sense to anyone besides myself.

[MigoTheGIgo]

Sylvianus wrote...

MigoTheGIgo wrote...

Leave Hawke alone :<

b09boy wrote...

-Mistakenly and unknowingly released the lyrium idol which all but creates the central antagonist and nearly destroys the city.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps Anders create a mage/templar civil war throughout Thedas.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps and even allows Corypheus to escape and likely infiltrate the Grey Wardens.
-Mistakenly
and unknowingly prevents a list of Qunari spies from being obtained,
likely making the eventual qunari invasion all the worse.

It was
annoying at first, but this has gotten to be just comical. I have to
wonder if Bioware even realizes what a joke Hawke is.  I'm not sure I've ever seen an RPG character railroaded so much into being a complete stooge or stepstool for other characters to walk all over.

Perhaps the lesson from this game is "Sometimes, life gives you crap, and all you can do is try not to be swallowed up by it". Which is an entirely valid lesson. There is a difference between being a hero and being a god. Guess which one Hawke is ^^ 

1 - I don't give a crap about lessons of life. That's not the role of video games.

2- A video game is NOT a format to be learned what is the life, what's wrong in life, or whatever. you learn absolutely nothing in a video game. There are no valid lessons. Video games are only useful for entertainment and to invent a world in which to project with his thoughts, ideas, opinions.. ( especially rpg )  

 This is the way to the stupidity to let itself to learn something from a video game, developed by the creators and their views that they have instilled in their production.  You interact, you witness something you love ( or don't ) or  you prefer, that's all.

1 - I am sorry you feel that way, but then we disagree in a very fundamental way. Video Games as entertainment can serve the exact same purpose as a book, movie, play etc. And if you do not believe those can serve the purpose of "lessons of life", then....

2 - As above. You are mistaken. A videogame *can* do exactly that. In this case, it for example serves to illustrate a certain fictional conflict, which has some allusions to issues in the real world. Now, if you are or are not interested in this aspect of videogames (or books, or movies), then that is your right. But it does not make it a fundamental truth.
Video games are only useful for entertainment and to invent a world
in which to project with his thoughts, ideas, opinions.. ( especially
rpg )  
 - And how exactly is this not what can be done regarding "lessons of life"? Or a specific outlook on life? Or how to react to certain situations? You seem to be contradicting yourself.

And I am afraid I do not understand the last paragraph. Would you mind explaining it to me?

[ThePasserby]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

However, Hawke's worth as a protagonist is directly a result of Bioware's development team's failings.

I am saying that by using dramatic irony, they give first person gamers the impression that Hawke is exactly what you say he is, but that's because those gamers see the audience and the protagonist as the same thing as they are treating Hawke like an avatar.  But, because they're clearly using dramatic irony, it's not how BioWare sees them.  Hawke and the audience are different, and DA2 is very much an explicitly third person game.

Hawke and the audienceis different with or without dramatic irony, no?

ThePasserby wrote...

And yes, I don't need dramatic irony to remind me of how ineffectual Hawke is.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
You couldn't have possibly missed my point more completely.

Then what is your point? Dramatic irony is when the audience knows something a character in the narrative does not. We all know that, whether we use the term "dramatic irony" or not. That doesn't change the fact that Hawke has mages with him and even possibly a Grey Warden sibling to help him and still remains credulous, uninformed, and uncurious.

Edited by ThePasserby, 14 October 2011 - 07:27 PM.

[upsettingshorts]

ThePasserby wrote...

Hawke and the audienceis different with or without dramatic irony, no?

They are, because of a lot of different things.  BioWare has been moving their games towards an explicitly third person experience for a long time. 

The use of dramatic irony is just one example of that.

ThePasserby wrote...

Then what is your point?

My point is that we know all of these things, Hawke does not, so expecting him or her to be "curious" as you say about them is an unrealistic standard and one no protagonist ought to be expected to meet, certainly not one that falls short of being clairvoyant.  

[ThePasserby]

Upsettingshorts wrote...



My point is that we know all of these things, Hawke does not, so expecting him or her to be "curious" as you say about them is an unrealistic standard and one no protagonist ought to be expected to meet, certainly not one that falls short of being clairvoyant.  

Then you are ignoring my point that Hawke might be a mage himself, might even be a blood mage, or have Grey Warden siblings to give him the insights.

[jlb524]

ThePasserby wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It's not really that Hawke is ordinary...far from it.

People like Hawke as a nice change from Warden/Shepard b/c Hawke doesn't save the world from the big bad thing at the end.  Being an extra-ordinary individual doesn't always have to equal saving the world in record time and against impossible odds.

Has anyone here said anything about asking for Hawke to "saving the world in record time and against impossible odds"?

Strawman much?

Ah, no.  I was just explaining why some people prefer Hawke to the others and clarifying that it's not b/c Hawke is 'ordinary'.  I wasn't addressing you or anything you've said at all.

[Anyroad2]

Wulfram wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Really? I don't find the character particularly inept. Ineptitude would imply being a complete failure at accomplishing one's tasks/goals. Hawke accomplished his/her goals.

Lets have a look at a Hawke's goals.  Of course, different Hawkes have different goals, but I think these are pretty normal ones

Prologue:  Get my family safely out of Kirkwall. edit: Freudian slip here.  Should be get my family safely to Kirkwall
Outcome:  Carver died

Act 1:  Gain the wealth and power to protect Bethany
Outcome:  Bethany is taken to the Circle (Or dead, or a Warden)

Act 2:  Prevent a war between Kirkwall and the Qunari, save mother
Outcome:  Mother dead, Kirkwall devastated by Qunari attack

Act 3:  Save the Circle Mages
Outcome:  Circle is annulled, Hawke runs away.

Here we go...

Prologue: Leandra gets singled out by and Ogre. Sibling gets in the way to protect her, but dies. Hawke (or anyone else) could have stopped this, but at the cost of their own life and possibly the lives of others. This was a tragedy. People were busy hiding, defending themselves, or killing other darkspawn. Reminds me of the Origins in DA:O. Terrible things happen that you can't stop.

Act 1: A losing situation with Bethany all around, but only a losing one if Carver dies. You cant do anything for Bethany. No matter what she goes to the Circle, gets tainted and either dies or becomes a Warden. Bethany is actually pretty relieved if she joins the Circle. She doesnt have to run anymore.  Again though, these were unforseen events. Unfortunate events that no one could have predicted or prevented.

Act 2: As I've said before... no one could have predicted what happend to Leandra. Hawke takes the horrible Qunari situation and deals with it. Kirwall still stands. Nobles still live. The qunari leave.

Act 3: Cirlce of Magi fights back for their freedom. Some of them survive. Kirkwalls Circle becomes an example to all others Circles in Thedas and they to rise up to fight for their freedom.


I'm starting to feel like I'm repeating myself over and over.

[upsettingshorts]

ThePasserby wrote...

Then you are ignoring my point that Hawke might be a mage himself, might even be a blood mage, or have Grey Warden siblings to give him the insights.

Because the point, like most of your argument, is incoherent and based on an arbitrary standard of "effectiveness?"

[jlb524]

adneate wrote...
Yet at the end you fight two giant bad monsters to save the city.

But for some reason this doesn't feel the same for players...not as epic. Perhaps b/c the entire game didn't revolve around getting to that moment just so you could stop the big bad moster.

adneate wrote...
What bugs me about Hawke is there is NO meaningful divergence to the story. You just follow the plot railroad to the end, the ending is the most agregious example since no matter who you side with you fight the big bad monster Orsino and then the crazy Lyruim Super Saiyan Meredith.

Origins was different?

[ThePasserby]

jlb524 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It's not really that Hawke is ordinary...far from it.

People like Hawke as a nice change from Warden/Shepard b/c Hawke doesn't save the world from the big bad thing at the end.  Being an extra-ordinary individual doesn't always have to equal saving the world in record time and against impossible odds.

Has anyone here said anything about asking for Hawke to "saving the world in record time and against impossible odds"?

Strawman much?

Ah, no.  I was just explaining why some people prefer Hawke to the others and clarifying that it's not b/c Hawke is 'ordinary'.  I wasn't addressing you or anything you've said at all.

My point stands that few here would consider Hawke a hero only if he "saves the world in record time and against impossible odds". From what I can tell, it's rather modest: Hawke not be given the idiot ball so often and allowing NPCs to walk all over him.

[upsettingshorts]

jlb524 wrote...

adneate wrote...
What bugs me about Hawke is there is NO meaningful divergence to the story. You just follow the plot railroad to the end, the ending is the most agregious example since no matter who you side with you fight the big bad monster Orsino and then the crazy Lyruim Super Saiyan Meredith.

Origins was different?

Nope.

[MigoTheGIgo]

b09boy wrote...

MigoTheGIgo wrote...

What would have happened if the Qunari had not been stopped?

They would have been.  An army of a couple hundred far from home, surrounded by those who fear them?  The mage, templars and city guard without Hawke should have logically been able to destroy them.  If not you can bet the surrounding nations and city states would not have stood for a qunari takeover.  The Arishok's attack was actually insanely stupid.

If Hawke had not chosen to aid whomever he/she chooses at the end, the mages would either have been horribly slaugthered, or the battles would have torn Kirkwall utterly apart.

It all ends the same way.  The mages in Kirkwall are doomed, with or without Hawke.  And if Hawke hadn't been around to take the idol then Meredith wouldn't have gone crazy to begin with and the initial conflic may have been avoided.

About the Lyrium Idol: Aveline even mentions this. Yes, Hawke got ahead, but the money poured into Kirkwall upsets the balance. Is Hawke really to blame for this?

You know what a hero might've done in this situation?  Figured out who Bertrand sold the pure lyrium idol to.  Instead of...you know...nothing.

Hawke is not "just" getting walked over by NPCs. If you consider it, his actions directly influences the lives of thousands. BUT, he does not always succeed; they do not always have the intended consequences. He is not all knowing, or all powerful. But, he/she tries.

None of this really tell me how Hawke doesn't get walked all over by other characters.

About Larius/Janeka. Hawke has little to no knowledge of Archdemons or the taint. If someone is to blame, it is the sibling (if a Grey Warden), or Anders. And even then; Corypheus is something that has either never been encountered before, or only been encountered once before. And he is certainly something that is barely, if at all, understood. What we know, and what Hawke knows, is very, very different measures, since we had the option of playing through the Grey Warden experience in Origins.

Again, this does not stop Hawke from being ineffectual.  Just because you are ignorant of something doesn't make you less ineffectual.  It just makes you ignorant and ineffectual.  They aren't mutually exclusive.

1) An Army of what at least appears to be the most powerful warriors. More importantly, they had already caught the entirety of the ruling elite and wholed them up. None of those nobles would have walked out. Those who had converted would be killed afterwards by the Templars. The damage done by kiling the entirety of the citys ruling, administrative elite would be beyong catastrophic. Sometimes, you do not need to live to win the battle.

2) True. But, I hold to us not knowing what takes places immediately beyond the ending as being the main issue with this. I would have loved to have an ending like in Origins, to wrap things up, but you get what you get.

3) Hawke seemingly has other things to do. Rather, I would say it is Varric who failed to track it down. Even if he had found out, what was he to do? It was obviously as addictive and manipulative as the One Ring. And Meredith was the Knight Commander. What was he to do, kill her? He did. When the opportunity presented itself.

4) How does he get walked over? As I say, he/she saved the lives of hundreds if not thousands. Hawke is not a "man with a mission" like Shepard or the Warden. He is faced with several different obstacles, and attempts to solve these as best he can. But sometimes, conflict is unavoidable. In these situations, Hawke does what he can.

5) Ignorant seems such a loaded word. Not knowing something you have no reason to know is just that. Not knowing. Would you rather Janeka/Larius walked away with the exact same tone of voice etc. as before? And then, whenever Bioware decides to further explore it, they introduce it? Or would you just call it Deux Ex then? Foreshadowing is good when done right. Imo, it was done right in Legacy.

[ThePasserby]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Then you are ignoring my point that Hawke might be a mage himself, might even be a blood mage, or have Grey Warden siblings to give him the insights.

Because the point, like most of your argument, is incoherent and based on an arbitrary standard of "effectiveness?"

Incoherent? And yours is better? By merely saying "dramatic irony", everything's ok?

And what is so arbitrary about expecting Hawke to not be so credulous and taking things at face-value, given that he has resources at his command?

[Anyroad2]

Dictionary.com wrote...
dramatic irony
 
noun
irony that is inherent in speeches or a situation of a drama and is understood by the audience but not grasped by the characters in the play.

Makes sense to me.

Edited by Anyroad2, 14 October 2011 - 07:43 PM.

[ThePasserby]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Dictionary.com wrote...
dramatic irony
 
noun
irony that is inherent in speeches or a situation of a drama and is understood by the audience but not grasped by the characters in the play.


Makes sense to me.

Makes sense only if Hawke soloes the dungeon. What about parties that involve a Grey Warden sibling? Are they ignorant of the transmigration of souls too?

Edited by ThePasserby, 14 October 2011 - 07:45 PM.

[Anyroad2]

ThePasserby wrote...

Makes sense only if Hawke soloes the dungeon. What about parties that involve a Grey Warden sibling? Are they ignorant of the transmigration of souls too?

Hmmmm. Most likely.
Riordan says something along the lines of that only the more seasoned Grey Wardens know about the transmigration of souls. This explains why Alistair and Carver/Bethany didnt know about it.

Edited by Anyroad2, 14 October 2011 - 07:47 PM.