703 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

ThePasserby wrote...

Makes sense only if Hawke soloes the dungeon. What about parties that involve a Grey Warden sibling? Are they ignorant of the transmigration of souls too?

Both the Warden and Alistair were ignorant of it until the very end of DA:O. I have no reason to think the Grey Wardens all of a sudden started revealing their secrets to all recruits.

[jamesp81]

jlb524 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Not entirely, that's true.  He's far closer to being a normal person than the Warden or Shepard, though.  He's very reactive and often not as effective as those other two.

He's got much better snark dialogue though, credit where it's due and all that.

It's not really that Hawke is ordinary...far from it.

People like Hawke as a nice change from Warden/Shepard b/c Hawke doesn't save the world from the big bad thing at the end.  Being an extra-ordinary individual doesn't always have to equal saving the world in record time and against impossible odds.

You do realize that they can't have us killing the badguy and saving the world in DA2 seeing how it's not the final installment in the series.  That comes later.  That's also why Hawke in particularly and DA2 in general get a pass from me.  DA2 isn't supposed to signify an end, and installments in the middle of a given series are usually darker than the beginning installment and final installment.

Hawke was a nice diversion from the the Wardens and the Shepards of the world.  If BW knows what's good for their profit margin, however, they'll return to a Warden-like protagonist in the final game, whenever that is.  DAO sold better than DA2 and the protagonist is likely one of the reasons that happened.

Modifié par jamesp81, 14 octobre 2011 - 07:50 .

[ThePasserby]

[quote]Anyroad2 wrote...

[quote]ThePasserby wrote...

[quote]Anyroad2 wrote...

Dictionary.com wrote...
dramatic irony
 
noun
irony that is inherent in speeches or a situation of a drama and is understood by the audience but not grasped by the characters in the play.[quote]


Makes sense to me.[/quote]

Makes sense only if Hawke soloes the dungeon. What about parties that involve a Grey Warden sibling? Are they ignorant of the transmigration of souls too?

[/quote]

Hmmmm. Most likely.
Riordan says something along the lines of that only the more seasoned Grey Wardens know about the transmigration of souls. This explains why Alistair didnt know about it.

[/quote]

Bethany would have been with the Grey Wardens for at least 6 years if Hawkes goes there in the third act. You're actually saying that Bethany would remain ignorant about how Archdemons are slain for 6 years?

[MigoTheGIgo]

ThePasserby wrote...

Makes sense only if Hawke soloes the dungeon. What about parties that involve a Grey Warden sibling? Are they ignorant of the transmigration of souls too?

As I mentioned earlier, Corypheus is something that has never been encountered before (or has only been encountered once before, depending on your interpretation of the Architect). It is something new, and that it should have this same ability as an Archdemon doesn't seem like the most obvious thing.

Not to mention that the party has just walked away from what was probably a very exhaustive battle, and that the "recipient" was their ally moments ago.

About Blood Magic; lets ignore the fact that it is something that is probably not used too openly, I highly doubt that it is something that Hawke would use to just read minds at will whenever someones speaks. Because that would just be outright villanous.

[ThePasserby]

Zanallen wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Makes sense only if Hawke soloes the dungeon. What about parties that involve a Grey Warden sibling? Are they ignorant of the transmigration of souls too?

Both the Warden and Alistair were ignorant of it until the very end of DA:O. I have no reason to think the Grey Wardens all of a sudden started revealing their secrets to all recruits.

You have no reason to think Bethany/Carver would know even after 6 years if the DLC is played in the third act? Really?

[Anyroad2]

You can also do Legacy in Act 2 where shed only be a Warden for three years.
Also, I believe Alistair was a warden for longer than (or around) 6 years at the start of DA:O.

[jamesp81]

Sylvianus wrote...

MigoTheGIgo wrote...

Leave Hawke alone :<

b09boy wrote...

-Mistakenly and unknowingly released the lyrium idol which all but creates the central antagonist and nearly destroys the city.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps Anders create a mage/templar civil war throughout Thedas.
-Mistakenly and unknowingly helps and even allows Corypheus to escape and likely infiltrate the Grey Wardens.
-Mistakenly
and unknowingly prevents a list of Qunari spies from being obtained,
likely making the eventual qunari invasion all the worse.

It was
annoying at first, but this has gotten to be just comical. I have to
wonder if Bioware even realizes what a joke Hawke is.  I'm not sure I've ever seen an RPG character railroaded so much into being a complete stooge or stepstool for other characters to walk all over.

Perhaps the lesson from this game is "Sometimes, life gives you crap, and all you can do is try not to be swallowed up by it". Which is an entirely valid lesson. There is a difference between being a hero and being a god. Guess which one Hawke is ^^ 

1 - I don't give a crap about lessons of life. That's not the role of video games.

2- A video game is NOT a format to be learned what is the life, what's wrong in life, or whatever. you learn absolutely nothing in a video game. There are no valid lessons. Video games are only useful for entertainment and to invent a world in which to project with his thoughts, ideas, opinions.. ( especially rpg )  

 This is the way to the stupidity to let itself to learn something from a video game, developed by the creators and their views that they have instilled in their production.  You interact, you witness something you love ( or don't ) or  you prefer, that's all.

Well said, especially point 1.

Most people don't buy video games to be preached to.

[Zanallen]

ThePasserby wrote...

You have no reason to think Bethany/Carver would know even after 6 years if the DLC is played in the third act? Really?

What part of the Grey Wardens make you think they aren't a ridiculously secretive organization? There have been no new Archdemons popping up, so I would imagine that there was no reason for Bethany or Carver to be given that information.

[MigoTheGIgo]

Even then, that Corypheus would posses this ability does not seem like the most obvious thing. Now, I do not disagree that he has it; it seems like it is pretty cut and clear. But, the connection that "Archdemons can do this, so this thing we have never really met before can do it too" is not something that should come as natural to even the wardens, imo.

[ThePasserby]

MigoTheGIgo wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Makes sense only if Hawke soloes the dungeon. What about parties that involve a Grey Warden sibling? Are they ignorant of the transmigration of souls too?

As I mentioned earlier, Corypheus is something that has never been encountered before (or has only been encountered once before, depending on your interpretation of the Architect). It is something new, and that it should have this same ability as an Archdemon doesn't seem like the most obvious thing.

Not to mention that the party has just walked away from what was probably a very exhaustive battle, and that the "recipient" was their ally moments ago.

About Blood Magic; lets ignore the fact that it is something that is probably not used too openly, I highly doubt that it is something that Hawke would use to just read minds at will whenever someones speaks. Because that would just be outright villanous.

This may be how you would role play Hawke. I'd like mine to be a little more brainy, who utilises the resources at his disposal, and seeks the counsel of his companions. But alas, time and again, Hawke is handed the idiot ball.

[TheJediSaint]

Anyroad2 wrote...

You can also do Legacy in Act 2 where shed only be a Warden for three years.
Also, I believe Alistair was a warden for longer than (or around) 6 years at the start of DA:O.

6 months actually, but it's true that Grey Warden do not share their secrets with junior members.  I doubt Bethany or Carver would have been wardens long enough to learn the secret of the Archdemon, espeically since the Blight was over.  

[ThePasserby]

Zanallen wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

You have no reason to think Bethany/Carver would know even after 6 years if the DLC is played in the third act? Really?

What part of the Grey Wardens make you think they aren't a ridiculously secretive organization? There have been no new Archdemons popping up, so I would imagine that there was no reason for Bethany or Carver to be given that information.

They are secretive to the extent that not even their own members know how to properly kill an archdemon? I guess one can justify even this if one is vested in defending Hawke's credulity. Shrug.

[TheAwesomologist]

 

Drasanil wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Most of the players don't even try to understand the parts of the game that they think doesn't make sense.

Dragon Age II is 'Hawke's Series of Unfortunate Events' by Varric Tethras.

People are unfairly critical of the game and it's story.

"Hawke's Series of Unfortunate Events" is a fine premise in and of itself, the main problem though lies in the fact that it isn't really presented as such and that players were told by the devs to expect something completely different. Namely playing the most important person in Thedas who shaped the fate of the world. 

When presented against that background Hawke does come across as ineffectual and inept, because he never actually comes across as pivotal nor does he actually actively shape anything. He's just along for the ride. 

Whether or not you personally like Hawke is one matter, but when you have to go actively looking for a reason that never seemed to be in the cards to justify Hawke's effectiveness or lack thereof it becomes a problem. The whole "well Hawke was/is just a normal guy/gal caught up by events" sounds like an excuse presented after the fact to justify the outcome rather than an element of the story that was actually ment to be integral in the first place.

adneate wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
People like Hawke as a nice change from Warden/Shepard b/c Hawke doesn't save the world from the big bad thing at the end. 

Yet at the end you fight two giant bad monsters to save the city. What bugs me about Hawke is there is NO meaningful divergence to the story. You just follow the plot railroad to the end, the ending is the most agregious example since no matter who you side with you fight the big bad monster Orsino and then the crazy Lyruim Super Saiyan Meredith. Hawke's concept just isn't executed in any way the feels right, it's incredibly forced and I never got the impression that "Oh these two people turning into monsters that want to kill everyone and everything is a statement about how even an extraordinary person can't save some people from their own demons." All I got was that it might have been the laziest ending to game ever almost like they built it around two boss fights and then hammered out a story reason for it on the back of a cocktail napkin a month before the deadline.

Which was how most of the big moments in DA2 felt, like they were written backwards from the end state or the fight they wanted you to have.

Just wanted to point out these two posts as expressing similar views to how I feel about the game's story. I think most people unhappy with the game's story understand what kind of story DA2 was trying to be. It just didn't do a good job of convincing me that Hawke wasn't innept and simply caught up in a perfect storm. The writers and game designers failed at getting this point across in an enjoyable way.

Most of the time I felt frustrated with my lack of options or ability to actually affect the story. For whatever reason the ability to make choices was left only for side quests and interactions with party members. For me that made those quests more enjoyable because I the player had choices and those choices had consequences. The over all story just came off has rather bland series of events I was forced into.

The thing is, every game is basically going to rail road you to some extent. The Warden is always going to fight the Archdemon, Shepard is going to fight Saren and the Reaper baby, but how you get there is what matters. It's nice to have options on what to do with Fenryiel or how to help Merrill, Varric, Aveline, and all of your other companions, but none of those choices mattered in the end really, with the possible exceptions of losing party members such as Isabella or Fenris, but that simply means you'll have to bring a different warrior or rogue with you. And in the end all you're doing is losing content, you're not gaining new content or options.

It's all about the illusion of choice. That illusion may be different for everyone, I don't know, but in my opinion that's something DA2 did a very poor job with when it came to the main plot. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment, though it certainly varies in how strongly people feel about the game. That lack of illusion just makes Hawke come off as rather inept. Not a bad a character, just not a great one.

Modifié par TheAwesomologist, 14 octobre 2011 - 08:00 .

[Anyroad2]

Months? Oh. My mistake. XD

But yeah. Even though I mistook months for years (its been a while), it still stands that The Grey Wardens are very secretive and that they don't share this information with newer members.

[Addai]

Anyroad2 wrote...

You can also do Legacy in Act 2 where shed only be a Warden for three years.
Also, I believe Alistair was a warden for longer than (or around) 6 years at the start of DA:O.

6 months

I wasn't as bothered by Janeka/ Larius in terms of the possession angle- which we can only just suppose even as an audience.  However it would have been nice to have had a chance to attack them for either the things they did to Hawke/ Malcolm, or for Larius because he's a ghoul.

I'm also not as bothered by the example of Leandra.  That is one case where there is some actual tragedy, despite plot railroading.

The most egregious examples of Hawke being an incompetent boob are IMO- not having the ability to do anything about Anders, letting Petrice walk out, and this new one from MoTA which puts the cherry on the doofus sundae.

[katling73]

Funnily enough, I used to agree with the OP... until I realised that DA2 is simply the Empire Strikes Back of the Dragon Age franchise. Everything Hawke did was meant to be ineffectual. Hawke was never mean to make the world or even Kirkwall a better place. Hawke was meant to take a world slowly recovering from the aborted Blight and turn it into a world of crapsack. It was never Hawke's task to save the world. Hawke was never meant to be a protagonist, just a catalyst to set up the world for the big finale in DA3 where someone else far more effectual and awesome would save it.

Once you take that mindset, the game makes much more sense.

[jlb524]

jamesp81 wrote...
You do realize that they can't have us killing the badguy and saving the world in DA2 seeing how it's not the final installment in the series. 

They could have, if they wished.  DA:O wasn't the final installment and the Warden was tasked with saving the land from the Blight.  Hawke's story is done after DA2.  If they do another 'save the world' type story in DA3, it will be with a new protagonist.

jamesp81 wrote...
Hawke was a nice diversion from the the Wardens and the Shepards of the world. 

Yes and that is why some like Hawke more than the others.

jamesp81 wrote...
If BW knows what's good for their profit margin, however, they'll return to a Warden-like protagonist in the final game, whenever that is.  DAO sold better than DA2 and the protagonist is likely one of the reasons that happened.

So, another 'You are tasked to save the lands from X and you must gather allies/armies to do so....and then you win at the end!  Woooo hooo!' story?

Color me thrilled.

[Wulfram]

Anyroad2 wrote...

Here we go...

Prologue: Leandra gets singled out by and Ogre. Sibling gets in the way to protect her, but dies. Hawke (or anyone else) could have stopped this, but at the cost of their own life and possibly the lives of others. This was a tragedy. People were busy hiding, defending themselves, or killing other darkspawn. Reminds me of the Origins in DA:O. Terrible things happen that you can't stop.

The claim you made which I disputed was that Hawke accomplished his goals, not that there were reasons for his failure

Act 1: A losing situation with Bethany all around, but only a losing one if Carver dies. You cant do anything for Bethany. No matter what she goes to the Circle, gets tainted and either dies or becomes a Warden. Bethany is actually pretty relieved if she joins the Circle. She doesnt have to run anymore.  Again though, these were unforseen events. Unfortunate events that no one could have predicted or prevented.

Carver joining the Templars is pretty much a losing scenario.  Your sibling joining an order dedicated to hunting down people like you.  And again, there being reasons for Hawke's failure doesn't change that they failed

Act 2: As I've said before... no one could have predicted what happend to Leandra. Hawke takes the horrible Qunari situation and deals with it. Kirwall still stands. Nobles still live. The qunari leave.

Lots of people are dead, in part because Hawke failed at pretty much every main quest in this act until the fight with the Arishok - poison gas gets released, delegates are killed, Saemus is killed, Isabela scarpers with the book, Mum dies.

Act 3: Cirlce of Magi fights back for their freedom. Some of them survive.

Most of them surely don't

Kirkwalls Circle becomes an example to all others Circles in Thedas and they to rise up to fight for their freedom.

Getting even more people killed!  And of course this doesn't have anything to do with Hawke, since it happens no matter what they choose to do.

[Anyroad2]

ThePasserby wrote...

They are secretive to the extent that not even their own members know how to properly kill an archdemon? I guess one can justify even this if one is vested in defending Hawke's credulity. Shrug.

I'm sure they know how to "kill" archdemons, but they dont know why theyre able to do so until they see it for themselves, or are told the secret behind it when they become senior members.

[bleetman]

I don't know, my Hawke's objectives generally involved sassing uppity nobles and hooking up with hot elves, both of which were accomplished quite effectively.

[ThePasserby]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

You can also do Legacy in Act 2 where shed only be a Warden for three years.
Also, I believe Alistair was a warden for longer than (or around) 6 years at the start of DA:O.

6 months actually, but it's true that Grey Warden do not share their secrets with junior members.  I doubt Bethany or Carver would have been wardens long enough to learn the secret of the Archdemon, espeically since the Blight was over.  

I have to say that such a defense is weak at best, to say that Grey Wardens of 6 years' seniority would not know how to properly kill an archedemon, their raison d'etre. Even Riordan assumed Alistair, whom he knew to be new, to know of this.

[MigoTheGIgo]

jamesp81 wrote...

Well said, especially point 1.

Most people don't buy video games to be preached to.

Oh? As far as I see it, there is two reasons for any videogame / film / book (longs as they are fiction) to exist; most have both.

1) To exchange ideas. "Preaching" falls in this category.

2) To entertain. To "dream".

Often, or at least, with the truly good pieces of each category, both are fulfilled. If you decide to consider the "morale" of a story or not, it is you choice. Some will, some will not.

[casedawgz]

Hawke is caught in events that NOBODY could have halted. Inept would imply that if Hawke had just been a little bit better, there wouldn't have been a war. This is false. Thedas had been heading this way for a long time. Also, I would say that Hawke is also probably the most effective killer in the Dragon Age universe; he's definitely good at that.

[Anyroad2]

ThePasserby wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

You can also do Legacy in Act 2 where shed only be a Warden for three years.
Also, I believe Alistair was a warden for longer than (or around) 6 years at the start of DA:O.

6 months actually, but it's true that Grey Warden do not share their secrets with junior members.  I doubt Bethany or Carver would have been wardens long enough to learn the secret of the Archdemon, espeically since the Blight was over.  

I have to say that such a defense is weak at best, to say that Grey Wardens of 6 years' seniority would not know how to properly kill an archedemon, their raison d'etre. Even Riordan assumed Alistair, whom he knew to be new, to know of this.

Duncan was convinced that there was a Blight happening. That changes things.

[TheJediSaint]

casedawgz wrote...

Hawke is caught in events that NOBODY could have halted. Inept would imply that if Hawke had just been a little bit better, there wouldn't have been a war. This is false. Thedas had been heading this way for a long time. Also, I would say that Hawke is also probably the most effective killer in the Dragon Age universe; he's definitely good at that.

There is also that, pretty much everyone who gets in Hawke's way ends up dead.