703 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

TheJediSaint wrote...

There is also that, pretty much everyone who gets in Hawke's way ends up dead.

Unfortunately if you're relying on his help, he mostly specialises in turning up too late and killing your killers.

[Ryzaki]

casedawgz wrote...

Hawke is caught in events that NOBODY could have halted. Inept would imply that if Hawke had just been a little bit better, there wouldn't have been a war. This is false. Thedas had been heading this way for a long time. Also, I would say that Hawke is also probably the most effective killer in the Dragon Age universe; he's definitely good at that.

Eh. I still say the Warden is better. 

Though Hawke is pretty good at killing things. 

[TheJediSaint]

Anyroad2 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

You can also do Legacy in Act 2 where shed only be a Warden for three years.
Also, I believe Alistair was a warden for longer than (or around) 6 years at the start of DA:O.

6 months actually, but it's true that Grey Warden do not share their secrets with junior members.  I doubt Bethany or Carver would have been wardens long enough to learn the secret of the Archdemon, espeically since the Blight was over.  

I have to say that such a defense is weak at best, to say that Grey Wardens of 6 years' seniority would not know how to properly kill an archedemon, their raison d'etre. Even Riordan assumed Alistair, whom he knew to be new, to know of this.

Duncan was convinced that there was a Blight happening. That changes things.

To reiterate my point before, the Blight was over, thus there was no reason for junior Wardens to know all the secrets or the order.  The Fact is, the best way to keep a secret is to have as few people know it as possible.  I would not be surprised if only Wardens coming within a few years of their callings are even expected to know the secret to killing the Archdemon.

[TheJediSaint]

Wulfram wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

There is also that, pretty much everyone who gets in Hawke's way ends up dead.

Unfortunately if you're relying on his help, he mostly specialises in turning up too late and killing your killers.

But they make such pretty smears.  Kirkwall always needed a dash of color.

[Ryzaki]

Following that logic none of the Wardens should know about the taint turning them to ghouls until it's time for their calling.

Not to mention considering the disaster Loghain's ignorance of the way to kill an Archedemon caused I don't see why people knowing a Warden has to kill an Archedemon (and explaining to their recruits how and why) is a bad idea. Note I'm not suggesting they tell normal people about the taint. (though for some mindboggling reason Anora knows the joining can be fatal) but rather that unless a Warden kills the ARchedemon it'll keep body hopping.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 octobre 2011 - 08:16 .

[MigoTheGIgo]

ThePasserby wrote...

This may be how you would role play Hawke. I'd like mine to be a little more brainy, who utilises the resources at his disposal, and seeks the counsel of his companions. But alas, time and again, Hawke is handed the idiot ball.

Perhaps. It would be fun. Perhaps if we are given a Tevinter installment, we would be given the chance to be more manipulative; it could be quite marvelous. Probably the thing I would want the most from this series.

Being cunniving and manipulative is sadly not something I have seen much of in RPGs. I remember in KOTOR when playing Dark Side, you were kind of forced into a bloodthirsty persona, not the awesome Palpatine one that I really wanted.

[Anyroad2]

Wulfram...

The goal is to pass not to get an +A. Hawke gets passing grades in all these situations. He is not perfect.

Most of the people hes traveling with make it to Kirkwall. Only 2 out of 6 don't make it.

Hawke makes a fortune in the Deeproads. That was his goal. He accomplishes it. He takes some losses though when it comes to his sibling. The thing you say about Carver depends on your point of view. Was joining the Templars good for Carver? Probably. It gave him purpose. Was joining the Wardens good for Carver? It too gave him purpose.

Kirkwall survives. The Qunari leave. People die in wars. The only way to prevent loss of life is to somehow prevent it, which wasnt going to happen with the Arishok in charge. Remember, the attack wasn't spontaneous, it was planned.

Some of the mages do survive. Again, more people will die, but the mages in the other towers think thats a fair price to pay for freedom.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 14 octobre 2011 - 08:15 .

[dsl08002]

The warden was much better character even though it was a silent protaganist.

hawke was slightley boring and you didn´t get the more personal connection like you got with the warden.

I say in my opinion that they should have continued with the warden as protaganist in DA3 but hawke was alright so maybe that both should have been the protagsnit in DA3

[GarrusV4karian]

Hawke is awesome! He's no regular hero. I'm tired of "Oh, save me superman" protagonist. I hope we haven't seen the last of him.

[GarrusV4karian]

dsl08002 wrote...

The warden was much better character even though it was a silent protaganist.

hawke was slightley boring and you didn´t get the more personal connection like you got with the warden.

Yeah, but that's just your opinion.

[b09boy]

MigoTheGIgo wrote...

1) An Army of what at least appears to be the most powerful warriors. More importantly, they had already caught the entirety of the ruling elite and wholed them up. None of those nobles would have walked out. Those who had converted would be killed afterwards by the Templars. The damage done by kiling the entirety of the citys ruling, administrative elite would be beyong catastrophic. Sometimes, you do not need to live to win the battle.

Thequnari being powerful doesn't make the plan any less suicidal or stupid.  Those who had converted did so at sword point and would all goright back.  The damage done to the nobles was already capped off by the killing of the viscount.  Didn't really matter much.  The viscount was a puppet ruler under Meredith.

2) True. But, I hold tous not knowing what takes places immediately beyond the ending as being the main issue with this. I would have loved to have an ending like in Origins, to wrap things up, but you get what you get.

Thereisn't really another outcome.  Hindsight is 20/20 but there is no way the chantry or templars would allow their central base in the region to be destroyed by mages without swift retribution.

3) Hawke seemingly has other things to do. Rather, I would say it is Varric who failed to track it down. Even if he had found out, what was he to do? Itwas obviously as addictive and manipulative as the One Ring. And Meredith was the Knight Commander. What was he to do, kill her? He did. When the opportunity presented itself.

What all does Hawke have to do which keeps the character so busy?  The Arishok was one thing, but that took place over an entire year.  Then there's another three after that until the concluding chapter.  You know what would be a smart thing to do?  At any point in there to go to the local templars, appeal to the leader, and say, "Hey, there's this artifact of pure magic out there somewhere.  This guy Bertrand sold it to someone recently before it drove him insane and he killed a bunch of people.  Might wanna keep a lookout, being that you're magic hunters and all."  Hawke and Meredith could've had a good laugh over that, I think.

4) How does he get walked over? As I say, he/she saved the lives of hundreds if not thousands. Hawke is not a "man with a mission" like Shepard or the Warden. He is faced with several different obstacles, and attempts to solve these as best he can. But sometimes, conflict is unavoidable. In these situations, Hawke does what he can.

How does Hawke not get walked over?  Who decides to go to Kirkwall?  Who comes up with the expedition?  Who gets Hawke involved with the Qunari?  Who gets Hawke involved with the mages/templars?  Or the Wardens?  Or Tallis?  These people ask Hawke to do things and Hawke just nods his/her head and goes along for the ride.  It's rather pathetic.

5) Ignorant seems such a loaded word. Not knowing something you have no reason to know is just that. Not knowing. Would you rather Janeka/Larius walked away with the exact same tone of voice etc. as before? And then, whenever Bioware decides to further explore it, they introduce it? Or would you just callit Deux Ex then? Foreshadowing is good when done right. Imo, it was done right in Legacy.

When you don't know something then you are ignorant on the subject.  Ignorance only goes so far.  Hawke could have, often easily, educated him/herself.  S/he didn't and thus continued to be ignorant and because of this continued to be ineffectual.

Modifié par b09boy, 14 octobre 2011 - 08:18 .

[ThePasserby]

Anyroad2 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

I have to say that such a defense is weak at best, to say that Grey Wardens of 6 years' seniority would not know how to properly kill an archedemon, their raison d'etre. Even Riordan assumed Alistair, whom he knew to be new, to know of this.

Duncan was convinced that there was a Blight happening. That changes things.

So Grey Wardens, even those who have been there for 6 years, have no idea about Archdemons' ability to transmigrate and just think that the Joining is just another hazing. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. In the murky area of a game mythos, one can justify anything.

[Anyroad2]

ThePasserby wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

I have to say that such a defense is weak at best, to say that Grey Wardens of 6 years' seniority would not know how to properly kill an archedemon, their raison d'etre. Even Riordan assumed Alistair, whom he knew to be new, to know of this.

Duncan was convinced that there was a Blight happening. That changes things.

So Grey Wardens, even those who have been there for 6 years, have no idea about Archdemons' ability to transmigrate and just think that the Joining is just another hazing. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. In the murky area of a game mythos, one can justify anything.

I dont expect for everyone in the game to know what I know about the lore of Thedas and its organizations.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 14 octobre 2011 - 08:24 .

[Master Shiori]

ThePasserby wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Makes sense only if Hawke soloes the dungeon. What about parties that involve a Grey Warden sibling? Are they ignorant of the transmigration of souls too?

Both the Warden and Alistair were ignorant of it until the very end of DA:O. I have no reason to think the Grey Wardens all of a sudden started revealing their secrets to all recruits.

You have no reason to think Bethany/Carver would know even after 6 years if the DLC is played in the third act? Really?

Why would they? 

They're not high ranking members of the order nor is there a Blight going on, like in Origins. From what we've seen in DA:O, the Wardens don't just frontload all the information to their members. Since centuries can pass between Blights and the last one was dealt with just a few years ago, neither Bethany nor Carver are likely to need that specific information. Simply knowing the basic facts about the archdemon is enough.

Second, there has been no record (as far as we, the players, know) about intelligent darkspawn having the ability to posses a new body upon death. Therefore, there's no reason to suspect that Larius or Janeka could be possessed by Coryphius, especially since Hawke and co. don't know either of them well enough to detect such a change, provided it actually happened at all.

[Shamajotsi]

Guys, some of you are making the mistake of thinking that the "Dragon Age" series is supposed to be sandbox games where the player has control over everything.

No, it isn't. It is interactive narrative that spans the Dragon Age in Thedas. The Dragon Age is a huge span of time (100 years) and Thedas is a huge place. Bioware obviously intent to put meaning to the title and really tell the whole story of that Dragon Age, each game taking place in a different location, with a different set of protagonists. It is not so much an epic like Gilgamesh, i.e. telling the story of a single character, as much as it is an epic like, say, Genesis or Exodus, telling the story of the whole world for a given period of time.

Here comes my point: Imagine that the player really had control over what happens in Thedas through the actions of Hawke. Imagine the player having at least two different "world-significant endings" at the end of DA2. Multiply this number by the number of the possible "world-significant endings" in DAO and DAA. By my calculations, you will get at least 8 different settings for DA3! If we continue with such an exponential growth of forking destinies, DA wouldn't last more than 3 iterations before we see "DA4, The-Play-It-If-You-Played-The-Previous-Iterations-In-This-Way Edition" and "DA4, The-Play-It-If-You-Played-The-Previous-Iterations-In-The-Other-Way Edition".

Now let's think about the actual events some people think Hawke could have prevented:
-The Qunari crisis. Without Hawke, Isabela could have never returned what she stole from them, they would not be able to get it, the crisis would have happened either way. It would have certainly finish in a more bloody way, though, for sure.
-Anders blowing up the Chantry. Even if Hawke could guess that Anders was actually going to start something so big as the Mage revolutions, even if he did stop him, the Kirkwall was already a gunpowder keg waiting to be lit. It would have happened either way, though it is hinted that Hawke will have the power to end this in the least bloody way. Possibly in an expansion.
-The Tevinter Magister. As far as I can remember, his prison was not going to hold him forever. Hawke facilitated what would have happened either way. Except that if Hawke wasn't there, the only people who would have known that the Magister is free, would have been indoctrinated by him.

So DA2 is not about a Superman who can install world peace everywhere and stop wars and disasters from happening. The way I see it, s/he is the unlucky fellow who happens to be in the most turbulent place in Thedas at the most turbulent time possible, but does whatever s/he can to play this dangerous game by his/her terms.

Also, imagine an RPG that takes place in 1914. Would you think it should be possible to prevent WWI by simply stopping Gavrilo Princip in his attempt to kill Franz Ferdinand?

Finally, let us see the end of MotA. So, if I understand some people's argument correctly, Tallis should somehow be able to convince Hawke to:
-help an unknown assassin steal something very valuable from a very influential person.
-kill a wivern just because she needs to get to a fancy party.
-steal a key from the guards/servents/son of the very same very influential person.
-sneak around in the castle of said very influential person.
-help her escape the prison of this very important Orlesian noble, even though she turns out to be a Qunari spy, who even tries to indoctrinate Hawke while they are in the cell together.
-help her even further in her pursuit, by killing a bunch of Tal Vashoth, Orlesian guards and the very same noble, who has a pet wivern and a Bianka knock-off that shoots bombs and land mines - although it is very clear that eventual success will be extremely beneficial to the Qun,

...but Hawke should be able to be dissuaded by the player at the end, when he realizes that his actions were... extremely beneficial to the Qun?

Modifié par Shamajotsi, 14 octobre 2011 - 08:29 .

[ThePasserby]

Master Shiori wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

Makes sense only if Hawke soloes the dungeon. What about parties that involve a Grey Warden sibling? Are they ignorant of the transmigration of souls too?

Both the Warden and Alistair were ignorant of it until the very end of DA:O. I have no reason to think the Grey Wardens all of a sudden started revealing their secrets to all recruits.

You have no reason to think Bethany/Carver would know even after 6 years if the DLC is played in the third act? Really?

Why would they? 

They're not high ranking members of the order nor is there a Blight going on, like in Origins. From what we've seen in DA:O, the Wardens don't just frontload all the information to their members. Since centuries can pass between Blights and the last one was dealt with just a few years ago, neither Bethany nor Carver are likely to need that specific information. Simply knowing the basic facts about the archdemon is enough.

Second, there has been no record (as far as we, the players, know) about intelligent darkspawn having the ability to posses a new body upon death. Therefore, there's no reason to suspect that Larius or Janeka could be possessed by Coryphius, especially since Hawke and co. don't know either of them well enough to detect such a change, provided it actually happened at all.

I'd like to role play a perceptive Hawke who sees the obvious change in Larius' demeanor that even Forrest Gump would notice. Speaking of which, I think even Forrest Gump trumps Hawke in turning the world around and making it a better place.

[MigoTheGIgo]

b09boy wrote...

Thequnari being powerful doesn't make the plan any less suicidal or stupid.  Those who had converted did so at sword point and would all goright back.  The damage done to the nobles was already capped off by the killing of the viscount.  Didn't really matter much.  The viscount was a puppet ruler under Meredith.

I disagree. From the random chatter in the viscount's keep, I got the distinct impression that the nobles are also the ones who take care of administrative working. Killing the entirety of them would have been quite damaging.
And again, it was not necesarily a matter of suicidal or not. The Arishok could not sit by any longer, according to his beliefs. The Qunari are zealots; their lives are insignificant.

And I am quite sure that some Codex entry or another claimed that those who converted to the Qun were declared heretics.

b09boy wrote...

Thereisn't really another outcome.  Hindsight is 20/20 but there is no way the chantry or templars would allow their central base in the region to be destroyed by mages without swift retribution.

True, the conflict was/is inevitable. It is seemingly the main conflict of the story, one of opression, and freedom versus safety. Quite... Appropriate, given current day conjecture. I do, however, enjoy that the NPCs are also a drive in the story. That they do not solely "exist to serve" Hawke. Anders is a prime example of this.

b09boy wrote...

What all does Hawke have to do which keeps the character so busy?  The Arishok was one thing, but that took place over an entire year.  Then there's another three after that until the concluding chapter.  You know what would be a smart thing to do?  At any point in there to go to the local templars, appeal to the leader, and say, "Hey, there's this artifact of pure magic out there somewhere.  This guy Bertrand sold it to someone recently before it drove him insane and he killed a bunch of people.  Might wanna keep a lookout, being that you're magic hunters and all."  Hawke and Meredith could've had a good laugh over that, I think.

True... It would have been nice to be able to do something non combat-y. Like when you held court in Awakening. But it is what it is. Seemingly, Varric is Hawke's main source of intel.

b09boy wrote...

How does Hawke not get walked over?  Who decides to go to Kirkwall?  Who comes up with the expedition?  Who gets Hawke involved with the Qunari?  Who gets Hawke involved with the mages/templars?  Or the Wardens?  Or Tallis?  These people ask Hawke to do things and Hawke just nods his/her head and goes along for the ride.  It's rather pathetic.

Some points just have to be followed up on for the sake of the story. Others, you can decline the quest (though... I don't see why you would do that). The Weak seek out the strong.

b09boy wrote...

When you don't know something then you are ignorant on the subject.  Ignorance only goes so far.  Hawke could have, often easily, educated him/herself.  S/he didn't and thus continued to be ignorant and because of this continued to be ineffectual.

Well... Not on Grey Knight secrets certainly?

All in all, I differentiate between "ineffectual" and "Reactive". Yes, Hawke is certainly reactive compared to the Warden, and it is a valid concern, though I do not share it to the extent of many other on this board. But to me it seems as if though ineffectual implies without impact. Which I very much think Hawke does have, impact, that is.

[barenas]

So Hawke is like Ned Stark, tries to do well but ends up making the kingdom dive into chaos?

[casedawgz]

Well here's the thing. Sure, assume Bethany and Carver know about the transfer of souls. Do they know of any cases where this WASN'T fatal for the Warden in question? I'd imagine the idea of the DA:O Warden knocking up Morrigan with a demon baby is not common knowledge of the sort they teach in Warden school. Corypheus' exit was not in line with what the GW siblings would know about this issue. If the possessee had dropped dead, they might be aware of a soul transfer. As it was, not so much, because traditionally the soul transfer is fatal.

[Anyroad2]

ThePasserby wrote...

I'd like to role play a perceptive Hawke who sees the obvious change in Larius' demeanor that even Forrest Gump would notice. Speaking of which, I think even Forrest Gump trumps Hawke in turning the world around and making it a better place.

That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people. Hawke also doesnt know what Corypheus' influence did to Larius' character or Janekas for that matter.

I belive that the change in tone and speech pattern was meant mostly for us as foreshadowing. Like when Loghain turns from the everyone (to the camera) and says something with an evil tone. No one noticed or did anything about it.

Modifié par Anyroad2, 14 octobre 2011 - 08:40 .

[Sunnie]

My Hawke was only half ineffectual. She succeeded in hooking up with Merrill, but only got a kiss from Tallis! I DEMAND A REFUND!

[Addai]

Anyroad2 wrote...
That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people.

Wouldn't Corypheus "leave through you" comment give a pretty big hint?

[MigoTheGIgo]

Shamajotsi wrote...

stuff

I like your post, some good points and thoughts which I share. Kirkwall really is a powderkeg bound to go off.

[MigoTheGIgo]

Addai67 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...
That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people.

Wouldn't Corypheus "leave through you" comment give a pretty big hint?

With our knowledge, perhaps. WIth Grey Warden knowledge, perhaps (though not as much). WIth Hawke's knowledge... I would say definately not.

You could also have interpreted "through you" as, "I will cut a bloody swathe through you" or get by you, which was my initial interpretation before I defeated him the first time.


EDIT: Noone should *know*. How could they? This is an entirely new beast (well, quite old actually, but im sure you get my point).

At most they should suspect, and it is not like they had a long time to ponder this afterwards.

Modifié par MigoTheGIgo, 14 octobre 2011 - 08:46 .

[Sunnie]

Anyroad2 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

I'd like to role play a perceptive Hawke who sees the obvious change in Larius' demeanor that even Forrest Gump would notice. Speaking of which, I think even Forrest Gump trumps Hawke in turning the world around and making it a better place.

That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people. Hawke also doesnt know what Corypheus' influence did to Larius' character or Janekas for that matter.

I belive that the change in tone and speech pattern was meant mostly for us as foreshadowing. Like when Loghain turns from the everyone (to the camera) and says something with an evil tone. No one noticed or did anything about it.

Except that Corypheus isn't able to possess people either. Blood magic can be used to influence and control but not actually possess (like a fade spirit/demon) He is a Tevinter Magister, not a Darkspawn, not an Old God.