703 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

Addai67 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...
That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people.

Wouldn't Corypheus "leave through you" comment give a pretty big hint?

Which could just as easliy be interpreted as, "over your dead bodies".  Which I think was Cory's plan A.

[jlb524]

Addai67 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...
That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people.

Wouldn't Corypheus "leave through you" comment give a pretty big hint?

If so, then why didn't Corypheus just possess Hawke right then?

[MigoTheGIgo]

Sunnie22 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

I'd like to role play a perceptive Hawke who sees the obvious change in Larius' demeanor that even Forrest Gump would notice. Speaking of which, I think even Forrest Gump trumps Hawke in turning the world around and making it a better place.

That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people. Hawke also doesnt know what Corypheus' influence did to Larius' character or Janekas for that matter.

I belive that the change in tone and speech pattern was meant mostly for us as foreshadowing. Like when Loghain turns from the everyone (to the camera) and says something with an evil tone. No one noticed or did anything about it.

Except that Corypheus isn't able to possess people either. Blood magic can be used to influence and control but not actually possess (like a fade spirit/demon) He is a Tevinter Magister, not a Darkspawn, not an Old God.

You don't think that is what happened? I think he is something different entirely, somewhere between Darkspawn and Old God. the "clues" we are provided seems quite clear.

Not that the ingame characters would know.

[Master Shiori]

ThePasserby wrote...

I'd like to role play a perceptive Hawke who sees the obvious change in Larius' demeanor that even Forrest Gump would notice.

Hawke sees a change. Did you know Larius before he became a ghoul? Can you says what sort of behaviour or speech would be considered "appropriate" for him?

The Larius we met could hardly string a sentance together, and his thoughts were a mess. How are we supposed to know what he would be like as a normal human and not a ghoul?

So, while we are allowed to suspect what may have happened, there is not ingame knowledge available to us, as players, that would allow us to say for certain that Coryphius possessed Larius or Janeka. And Hawke, who has no ties to the Grey Wardens nor detailed knowledge about them or the darkspawn (aside from general stories most people in Thedas hear), certainly cannot know that.

[upsettingshorts]

Shamajotsi wrote...

Guys, some of you are making the mistake of thinking that the "Dragon Age" series is supposed to be sandbox games where the player has control over everything.

No, it isn't. It is interactive narrative that spans the Dragon Age in Thedas. The Dragon Age is a huge span of time (100 years) and Thedas is a huge place. Bioware obviously intent to put meaning to the title and really tell the whole story of that Dragon Age, each game taking place in a different location, with a different set of protagonists. It is not so much an epic like Gilgamesh, i.e. telling the story of a single character, as much as it is an epic like, say, Genesis or Exodus, telling the story of the whole world for a given period of time.

Here comes my point: Imagine that the player really had control over what happens in Thedas through the actions of Hawke. Imagine the player having at least two different "world-significant endings" at the end of DA2. Multiply this number by the number of the possible "world-significant endings" in DAO and DAA. By my calculations, you will get at least 8 different settings for DA3! If we continue with such an exponential growth of forking destinies, DA wouldn't last more than 3 iterations before we see "DA4, The-Play-It-If-You-Played-The-Previous-Iterations-In-This-Way Edition" and "DA4, The-Play-It-If-You-Played-The-Previous-Iterations-In-The-Other-Way Edition".

Now let's think about the actual events some people think Hawke could have prevented:
-The Qunari crisis. Without Hawke, Isabela could have never returned what she stole from them, they would not be able to get it, the crisis would have happened either way. It would have certainly finish in a more bloody way, though, for sure.
-Anders blowing up the Chantry. Even if Hawke could guess that Anders was actually going to start something so big as the Mage revolutions, even if he did stop him, the Kirkwall was already a gunpowder keg waiting to be lit. It would have happened either way, though it is hinted that Hawke will have the power to end this in the least bloody way. Possibly in an expansion.
-The Tevinter Magister. As far as I can remember, his prison was not going to hold him forever. Hawke facilitated what would have happened either way. Except that if Hawke wasn't there, the only people who would have known that the Magister is free, would have been indoctrinated by him.

So DA2 is not about a Superman who can install world peace everywhere and stop wars and disasters from happening. The way I see it, s/he is the unlucky fellow who happens to be in the most turbulent place in Thedas at the most turbulent time possible, but does whatever s/he can to play this dangerous game by his/her terms.

Also, imagine an RPG that takes place in 1914. Would you think it should be possible to prevent WWI by simply stopping Gavrilo Princip in his attempt to kill Franz Ferdinand?

Finally, let us see the end of MotA. So, if I understand some people's argument correctly, Tallis should somehow be able to convince Hawke to:
-help an unknown assassin steal something very valuable from a very influential person.
-kill a wivern just because she needs to get to a fancy party.
-steal a key from the guards/servents/son of the very same very influential person.
-sneak around in the castle of said very influential person.
-help her escape the prison of this very important Orlesian noble, even though she turns out to be a Qunari spy, who even tries to indoctrinate Hawke while they are in the cell together.
-help her even further in her pursuit, by killing a bunch of Tal Vashoth, Orlesian guards and the very same noble, who has a pet wivern and a Bianka knock-off that shoots bombs and land mines - although it is very clear that eventual success will be extremely beneficial to the Qun,

...but Hawke should be able to be dissuaded by the player at the end, when he realizes that his actions were... extremely beneficial to the Qun?

This.  Definitely earns a page-turn repost.

Also, +1 for WW1 reference as I just got done reading The Guns of August.

[Sunnie]

jlb524 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...
That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people.

Wouldn't Corypheus "leave through you" comment give a pretty big hint?

If so, then why didn't Corypheus just possess Hawke right then?

Exactly. Blood Mages can't possess others, not even one of the most powerful left over from the tainting.

[Ryzaki]

And all of this doesn't explain why I don't have the choice to try to take the scroll from elf chick. I don't mind failing. But I'd like Hawke to *try*. It's almost as bad as my Warden threatening to kill Morrigan yet let's her casually stroll right on by. It's just a giant wat. At least *try* to attack. Even if they escape.

[Chewin]

jlb524 wrote...
If so, then why didn't Corypheus just possess Hawke right then?

That's quite a simple minded question.

Shamajotsi wrote...
*snip*

Well said. I pretty much agree on every part.

Modifié par Chewin3, 14 octobre 2011 - 08:51 .

[ThePasserby]

jlb524 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...
That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people.

Wouldn't Corypheus "leave through you" comment give a pretty big hint?

If so, then why didn't Corypheus just possess Hawke right then?

Then Hawke's companions, who are clearly brighter than him, would have noticed the difference and slew him where he stood.
The player would then reload, and Corypheus, being smarter than anyone in the room, reaslised the futility and pretended to die so he could surreptitiously transfer to a body he had been grooming for just that purpose.

See? I can make anything up too.

[Anyroad2]

Ryzaki wrote...

And all of this doesn't explain why I don't have the choice to try to take the scroll from elf chick. I don't mind failing. But I'd like Hawke to *try*. It's almost as bad as my Warden threatening to kill Morrigan yet let's her casually stroll right on by. It's just a giant wat. At least *try* to attack. Even if they escape.

I would have liked the option to try too. Thats a fault of MotA.

[Chewin]

Ryzaki wrote...

And all of this doesn't explain why I don't have the choice to try to take the scroll from elf chick. I don't mind failing. But I'd like Hawke to *try*. It's almost as bad as my Warden threatening to kill Morrigan yet let's her casually stroll right on by. It's just a giant wat. At least *try* to attack. Even if they escape.

Possibly BW is implying for Tallis to have some kind of importance in the future and has to keep the scroll.

Though I still agree with you.

[TheJediSaint]

jlb524 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...
That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people.

Wouldn't Corypheus "leave through you" comment give a pretty big hint?

If so, then why didn't Corypheus just possess Hawke right then?

Except Hawke does not carry the taint, and Cory seemed pretty intent on leaving by KILLING Hawke first.  Possession, if that is what in fact happend, was probably plan B.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 14 octobre 2011 - 08:56 .

[Sunnie]

Chewin3 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
If so, then why didn't Corypheus just possess Hawke right then?

That's quite a simple minded question.

Shamajotsi wrote...
*snip*

Well said. I pretty much agree on every part.

Not really, everyone seems to be overcomplicating things, and reading things between the lines that just may not be there.

Tallis is not on a mission for the Qun, she is on a personal mission for herself, trying to keep a lot of innocent people from being systematically slaughtered. Listen to her dialog a little closer and you will understand that the list of "sleeper agents" includes their families, those who have left the Qun, and their companions.

Not too complicated to me, I gladly let her take the list to keep it out of the Chantry and Orlisian hands.

[Anyroad2]

ThePasserby wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...
That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people.

Wouldn't Corypheus "leave through you" comment give a pretty big hint?

If so, then why didn't Corypheus just possess Hawke right then?

Then Hawke's companions, who are clearly brighter than him, would have noticed the difference and slew him where he stood.
The player would then reload, and Corypheus, being smarter than anyone in the room, reaslised the futility and pretended to die so he could surreptitiously transfer to a body he had been grooming for just that purpose.

See? I can make anything up too.

Pretty silly argument if you have to make things up like that. At the very least the person youre resonding to suggested something in the realm of possibility.

[Wulfram]

I couldn't care less about DA4. I didn't pay for DA4. I payed for DA2.

I wouldn't want to play a computer game in which we played Archduke Franz Ferdinand's bodyguard.

The argument that it makes sense for Hawke to be railroaded at the end because he's railroaded earlier in the DLC stikes me as utterly bizarre.

[Nashiktal]

Wait I though corypheus transferred to whoever you sided with because they had the taint in them?

Or am I missing something? (sorry just finished legacy, probably didn't catch everything the first time through.)

[ThePasserby]

Anyroad2 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...
That would be fine, except that Hawke doesnt know anything about Corypheus being able to posses people.

Wouldn't Corypheus "leave through you" comment give a pretty big hint?

If so, then why didn't Corypheus just possess Hawke right then?

Then Hawke's companions, who are clearly brighter than him, would have noticed the difference and slew him where he stood.
The player would then reload, and Corypheus, being smarter than anyone in the room, reaslised the futility and pretended to die so he could surreptitiously transfer to a body he had been grooming for just that purpose.

See? I can make anything up too.

Pretty silly argument if you have to make things up like that. At the very least the person youre resonding to suggested something in the realm of possibility.

You sound like you've not played Balder's Gate 2's expansion.

[Anyroad2]

ThePasserby wrote...

You sound like you've not played Balder's Gate 2's expansion.

Good, because I havent.

[ThePasserby]

Anyroad2 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

You sound like you've not played Balder's Gate 2's expansion.

Good, because I havent.

That disqualifies you from deciding what is or is not possible with BW's games, doesn't it?

[AtreiyaN7]

ThePasserby wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Really? I don't find the character particularly inept. Ineptitude would imply being a complete failure at accomplishing one's tasks/goals. Hawke accomplished his/her goals.

Really? I guess Hawke's goal was to have his mother murdered and made a walking doll.

I suppose Hawke achieved his goal of escalating the mage-templar conflict too.

And Hawke set his sights on having the chantry blown up and having Kirkwall and other cities burn.

Hawke also set out to be an unwitting agent to free Corypheus.

And most of all, Hawke set his mind to have Tallis escape with the names of Qunari agents and do nothing to stop it.

Well, you've succeeded at one thing: ignoring the point that sometimes people are subjected to circumstances over which they have no control. I can just as easily throw "Did Hawke succeed in his goal of stopping the Arishok from taking over Kirkwall?" because he/she certainly managed to do that. And please don't be ridiculous in trying to say things like Hawke's goal was to have his/her mother murdered and turned into a zombie. That's a load of crap of course.

Hawke was investigating a series of murders over years, and eventually, due to rather unfortunate circumstances (Hawke's mother resembling Quentin's deceased wife in part), his mother got caught up in events as a victim of the serial killer. Did Hawke succeed in tracking the lunatic down? Yes, Hawke was successful at that - but he wasn't able to save her, and THAT failure was NOT the result of ineptitude or stupidity.

Not every hero is infallible. If you want an infallible hero, I don't know - why don't you write yourself a Mary Sue who saves everyone and everything, including puppies and kittesn, from all the evils in the world?

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:05 .

[Chewin]

Sunnie22 wrote...
Not really, everyone seems to be overcomplicating things, and reading things between the lines that just may not be there.

Tallis is not on a mission for the Qun, she is on a personal mission for herself, trying to keep a lot of innocent people from being systematically slaughtered. Listen to her dialog a little closer and you will understand that the list of "sleeper agents" includes their families, those who have left the Qun, and their companions.

Not too complicated to me, I gladly let her take the list to keep it out of the Chantry and Orlisian hands.

Perhaps, but the term "innocent people" really goes over my head. Those "innocents" could be Qunari spies. And the fact that she states that they may have "families, and some aren't of the Qun" -- argument I really don't get. Didn't she earlier say that guards had families too? Does that make them "innocent" then? And I can't really trust her with such a dangerous list, considering it would be better if she just destroyed the scroll if she really wanted to protect them.

[Anyroad2]

ThePasserby wrote...

Anyroad2 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

You sound like you've not played Balder's Gate 2's expansion.

Good, because I havent.

That disqualifies you from deciding what is or is not possible with BW's games, doesn't it?

Does it?
I didnt realize that I needed to have played a decade old game not related to this series lore-wise in order to determine whats possible in this series or not.

Youre just being elitist, if you think that I do. : )

[Addai]

Shamajotsi wrote...
So DA2 is not about a Superman who can install world peace everywhere and stop wars and disasters from happening. The way I see it, s/he is the unlucky fellow who happens to be in the most turbulent place in Thedas at the most turbulent time possible, but does whatever s/he can to play this dangerous game by his/her terms.

But she doesn't do everything she can.  That is the point.  At crucial, inexplicable moments, Hawke stands there with a vacant stare or a cute one-liner, and direct lines from those dip**** moments can be drawn to the disasters of Kirkwall and Thedas.

I don't know how many times people can explain this?  Tragedy is doing your best and either seeing no result from it or having unexpected consequences bite you in the ass.  Hawke's story is not tragic, unless it's a story about tragic stupidity and incompetence.

But, I acknowledge that Hawke's ineptitude is not the only thing that bothers me.  It's the combination of that with the cartoonish world and with being forced into narrow personality windows, none of which I liked, which makes Hawke's vacancy move from "annoying but can deal" to hating the character.

Also, imagine an RPG that takes place in 1914. Would you think it should be possible to prevent WWI by simply stopping Gavrilo Princip in his attempt to kill Franz Ferdinand?

Then set a game in the aftermath, where someone might actually be able to do something meaningful.  DA2 was a whole wasted detour.  Let's have the mage-templar war in a codex entry.

*snip*
...but Hawke should be able to be dissuaded by the player at the end, when he realizes that his actions were... extremely beneficial to the Qun?

I really don't understand your point here at all.  Do you mean we're supposed to believe Hawke is so baffled by Tallis' Mary Sue'ness that she just can't help herself?  Tell me you don't mean that. 

Modifié par Addai67, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:09 .

[ThePasserby]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

ThePasserby wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Really? I don't find the character particularly inept. Ineptitude would imply being a complete failure at accomplishing one's tasks/goals. Hawke accomplished his/her goals.

Really? I guess Hawke's goal was to have his mother murdered and made a walking doll.

I suppose Hawke achieved his goal of escalating the mage-templar conflict too.

And Hawke set his sights on having the chantry blown up and having Kirkwall and other cities burn.

Hawke also set out to be an unwitting agent to free Corypheus.

And most of all, Hawke set his mind to have Tallis escape with the names of Qunari agents and do nothing to stop it.

Well, you've succeeded at one thing: ignoring the point that sometimes people are subjected to circumstances over which they have no control. I can just as easily throw "Did Hawke succeed in his goal of stopping the Arishok from taking over Kirkwall?" because he/she certainly managed to do that. And please don't be ridiculous in trying to say things like Hawke's goal was to have his/her mother murdered and turned into a zombie. That's a load of crap of course.

Hawke was investigating a series of murders over years, and eventually, due to rather unfortunate circumstances (Hawke's mother resembling Quentin's deceased wife in part), his mother got caught up in events as a victim of the serial killer. Did Hawke succeed in tracking the lunatic down? Yes, Hawke was successful at that - but he wasn't able to save her, and THAT failure was NOT the result of ineptitude or stupidity.

Not every hero is infallible. If you want an infallible hero, I don't know - why don't you write yourself a Mary Sue who saves everyone and everything, including puppies and kittesn, from all the evils in the world?

And you have succeeded at one thing too: missing the point. You said Hawke accomplishes his/her goals. So unless Hawke's goal is to have his mother murdered, he failed didn't he?

And talk about Mary Sue, sorry, Hawke can't be her, as Tallis has already taken up that role.

[Addai]

Sunnie22 wrote...
Not too complicated to me, I gladly let her take the list to keep it out of the Chantry and Orlisian hands.

And I'm glad you're glad with the one, single choice we're given, but surely you can understand why people might have liked a different option.