301 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

Wissenschaft wrote...

I thought zealotry was the point of the templars?

It seems that people are hatting on Tallis because they hate the Qun. If you dislike the Qun, that does not effect whether Tallis is an well written character. I don't like the Qun at all but I find the Qunari one of the most interesting parts of DA lore. And as I said, I found Tallis charming in a campy way. I'm a bit confused how shes a zealot. When I think zealot I think of someone like Mother Petrice. 

To be Qunari is to be a zealot. It's like Rule 3 of Qunari Club . I think most on this board are against religious zealotry in general, so the sentiment doesn't stop with the Qun. The problem is that Tallis is a blatant mary sue and Hawke can't ever really call her out on the Qun even though there are dozens of legitimate problems with the philosophy.

[Huntress]

Wissenschaft wrote...

I thought zealotry was the point of the templars?

It seems that people are hatting on Tallis because they hate the Qun. If you dislike the Qun, that does not effect whether Tallis is an well written character. I don't like the Qun at all but I find the Qunari one of the most interesting parts of DA lore. And as I said, I found Tallis charming in a campy way. I'm a bit confused how shes a zealot. When I think zealot I think of someone like Mother Petrice. 

Well said, people judge before getting to the bottoms of things, is ok to not like the qun, I do not like them at all, but if you take the time and talk to her you can see she is struggling with her feeling and believes, I think the character is very rich and I'll love to have a character that will adventure with her, for more than 3-4 hours

Lets dance tallis:

[PrinceLionheart]

Huntress wrote...

Birdhive wrote...

She doesn't sound Qunari enough--she needs more baritone.

 

Forgive me but I just had to wtflaugh at this.. really... she is a fcking ELF who was brought to the qun when she probably was 10+ years or older.. She can't sound qunari because she is not an actually qunari, she is just an elf that believe/believed that the qun was probably better than what humans and their religion had to offer..

I'm sure that was sarcasm.

[Enlightenment]

I have to admit it seems like a cash in on the fame from that WoW thing she did...Tried watching the youtube story for Tallis they are doing but.....yeah...cant make it through even one episode.

Dont think its so much hate as it is just disappointed in the writers and Bioware...I expected better

[Birdhive]

Huntress wrote...

Birdhive wrote...

She doesn't sound Qunari enough--she needs more baritone.

 

Forgive me but I just had to wtflaugh at this.. really... she is a fcking ELF who was brought to the qun when she probably was 10+ years or older.. She can't sound qunari because she is not an actually qunari, she is just an elf that believe/believed that the qun was probably better than what humans and their religion had to offer..

I thought I was speaking commonly agreed-upon internetese--doesn't the lil' winky face mean "joke"?  I could have sworn that it did! 

In case internetese has evolved some new meanings, here's what I was doing: all previously encountered Qunari have extremely deep voices, therefore, using failed logic, one could deduce that all Qunari have deep voices.  Heck, Fenris has a deep voice, and he merely spent time with Qunari rebels!  [Yes, I did just assert that; it is called "farce".]

Anyhow!  Thanks for the jpg of info we already have in-game!

PrinceLionheart wrote...
I'm sure that was sarcasm.

Thanks for the assist, PrinceLionheart!  You'll aptly note I'm sure, the sarcasm found in my last sentence to Huntress above.  :innocent:

[TEWR]

Huntress wrote...

Birdhive wrote...

She doesn't sound Qunari enough--she needs more baritone.

 

Forgive me but I just had to wtflaugh at this.. really... she is a fcking ELF who was brought to the qun when she probably was 10+ years or older.. She can't sound qunari because she is not an actually qunari, she is just an elf that believe/believed that the qun was probably better than what humans and their religion had to offer..

1) Birdhive was making a joke about how every Qunari and Tal-Vashoth we've met prior to Tallis has had a very deep voice. But Birdhive and some other posters have already said this in response before me.

2) Qunari means "people of the Qun", which means the people who follow the Qun. So yes, Tallis is in fact a Qunari. The race of giants that we see are called Kossith. Qunari is the religion, Kossith is the race.

[Xilizhra]

I thought zealotry was the point of the templars?

That too.

It seems that people are hatting on Tallis because they hate the Qun. If you dislike the Qun, that does not effect whether Tallis is an well written character. I don't like the Qun at all but I find the Qunari one of the most interesting parts of DA lore. And as I said, I found Tallis charming in a campy way. I'm a bit confused how shes a zealot. When I think zealot I think of someone like Mother Petrice.

True. I don't feel she's badly written, I'm just annoyed that I can say nothing adequate regarding her service to evil and also can't do anything to hinder it.

[LobselVith8]

Huntress wrote...

Anyway some of you probably had dought of why this happen and what if hawke talk to the elites of Kirkwall.. well my hawke did in fact mention this elf to Kirkwall Elites:

So in the wake of the Arishok's attempt to take over Kirkwall and the Champion's concern about the Qunari, nothing that Hawke advises about Tallis says makes any difference? Was there a point to this DLC if Hawke's actions don't matter again?

[Knight of Dane]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Anyway some of you probably had dought of why this happen and what if hawke talk to the elites of Kirkwall.. well my hawke did in fact mention this elf to Kirkwall Elites:

So in the wake of the Arishok's attempt to take over Kirkwall and the Champion's concern about the Qunari, nothing that Hawke advises about Tallis says makes any difference? Was there a point to this DLC if Hawke's actions don't matter again?

Badabaamm, you figured it out, this DLC was solely to promote DA: Redemption!

Welcome in the club.

[TEWR]

You know, I really can't hate Tallis. She admits to Anders that while she finds the treatment of mages in the Qun abhorrent, it doesn't make her believe in the Qun any less. More for what the Qun stands for rather than what it actually is.

She's an idealist Qunari, and that's something I like about her.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 octobre 2011 - 04:57 .

[CuriousArtemis]

On my first playthrough, I didn't hate her. On my second playthrough, I still don't hate her, but I don't like her. Her face is ... strange ... and I don't like her voice.

As for her being a Qunari, I can't hate a character because of his/her religion ... I only hate a character if the character is badly drawn or written.

[Huntress]

LobselVith8 wrote..

So in the wake of the Arishok's attempt to take over Kirkwall and the Champion's concern about the Qunari, nothing that Hawke advises about Tallis says makes any difference? Was there a point to this DLC if Hawke's actions don't matter again?

I like it the DLC, it talks alot about Quanri and the wierdo's from orlais, new monsters too and old faces, teagan/leliana
I did the DLC after killing the Arishock. he bug's if I do any of the dlc before him.. wierd.
Nothing makes any difference because: Kirkwal has NO ruler, meredith has open war towards mages and harrassing them is more important that few qunari spies. meh. thast probably why not one can actually do anything, meredith have total control on choosing who will rule kirkwall and her name is on top of that list.

I do like tallis but if bioware make another sebastian out of her, I will burn the forum down!
And My friends here

will do the rest.

Now if she ( Tallis) is someone like fenris that  as rival he learns to live with his demons am ok with that, if she is someone like isabela, am ok with that too.

Modifié par Huntress, 27 octobre 2011 - 01:52 .

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You know, I really can't hate Tallis. She admits to Anders that while she finds the treatment of mages in the Qun abhorrent, it doesn't make her believe in the Qun any less. More for what the Qun stands for rather than what it actually is.

She's an idealist Qunari, and that's something I like about her.

That's... stupid. Stupid stupid stupid. If you acknowledge that your bloody religion is enslaving and torturing people and yet you continue to help spread it, you're either a cowardly hypocrite or simply deranged.

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

Enlightenment wrote...

I have to admit it seems like a cash in on the fame from that WoW thing she did...Tried watching the youtube story for Tallis they are doing but.....yeah...cant make it through even one episode.

Dont think its so much hate as it is just disappointed in the writers and Bioware...I expected better

Yeah.  Welcome to my entire problem with DA2.  The quality of writing just isn't there.  It feels like junior varsity.  If this is their new gold standard, they are going to keep hemorraghing customers.

[Arquen]

I actually kind of agree with that. You can threaten to kill her, and threaten/intimidate her, but you can't outright take any action against her.

I had almost sworn there was a "time to die" option on my aggro Hawke that totally threatened Tallis every chance she got because she is a very anti-qunari and anti-sewing mages mouths shut/collaring them person. Yet when I went back and replayed again looking for the option.. it wasn't there. Perhaps my brain just imagined it. However, I think it should have been an option.

At least something to call her out on some of those Qunari beliefs. The word vomit arguments she spews at you were *eyeroll* worthy at times.

I don't dislike Tallis, but I kind of agree that there were some options missing from her dialogue. Her plot armor became this shield around her, and you couldn't even confront her properly. That is more an ongoing problem with Hawke, though. Not really Tallis specific.

I actually like Tallis, but you have the option to threaten her, why don't you have the option to at least pseudo-kill her? She could very well pull a Patrice and go "I won't give you the opportunity today," but at least you have the option to follow up on your threats.

[Cobra's_back]

No I don’t hate her. Personally, I don't care for her much. The character she plays is annoying. I would not like to see her as a companion in DA3. Please don’t put her on my team. There it is the word team. She is not a team player. In this DLC she is a liar and manipulators. How does Hawke like getting used?

[Seagloom]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's... stupid. Stupid stupid stupid. If you acknowledge that your bloody religion is enslaving and torturing people and yet you continue to help spread it, you're either a cowardly hypocrite or simply deranged.

A person can spend decades searching for meaning in their lives and never find it. The Qun protected her, nurtured her, and later elevated her with an identity and purpose. It not only shaped who Tallis became, but made her a person in her mind. In a way the Qun took on the role of her surrogate parents. Even if Tallis is aware servitude is another form of slavery, and recognizes the evils in Qunari society, turning away would be embracing self destruction. It would be like walking straight into oblivion.

I expect some level of Stockholm syndrome-like derangement is a factor, but there is more to Tallis than that.

Modifié par Seagloom, 27 octobre 2011 - 03:50 .

[Cobra's_back]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You know, I really can't hate Tallis. She admits to Anders that while she finds the treatment of mages in the Qun abhorrent, it doesn't make her believe in the Qun any less. More for what the Qun stands for rather than what it actually is.

She's an idealist Qunari, and that's something I like about her.

I really don’t see this as an issue. The Warden didn’t share Sten’s beliefs, but Sten was honest. This is where the problem lies with this character. She is not honest.

[Xilizhra]

Seagloom wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's... stupid. Stupid stupid stupid. If you acknowledge that your bloody religion is enslaving and torturing people and yet you continue to help spread it, you're either a cowardly hypocrite or simply deranged.

A person can spend decades searching for meaning in their lives and never find it. The Qun protected her, nurtured her, and later elevated her with an identity and purpose. It not only shaped who Tallis became, but made her a person in her mind. In a way the Qun took on the role of her surrogate parents. Even if Tallis is aware servitude is another form of slavery, and recognizes the evils in Qunari society, turning away would be embracing self destruction. It would be like walking straight into oblivion.

I expect some level of Stockholm syndrome-like derangement is a factor, but there is more to Tallis than that.

I probably shouldn't have put it quite like that. It's quite likely she's mentally ill in some way, and isn't at fault for that. If it's the source for all of this cognitive dissonance, then I apologize and hope she can find healing. If not... I stand by the "cowardly hypocrite" part.

[Seagloom]

Xilizhra wrote...

I probably shouldn't have put it quite like that. It's quite likely she's mentally ill in some way, and isn't at fault for that. If it's the source for all of this cognitive dissonance, then I apologize and hope she can find healing. If not... I stand by the "cowardly hypocrite" part.

I imagine her life under the Qunari was easier than the slavery she knew previously. I can see how someone might believe she is cowardly. I'm not so sure about that since bravery in her case would come at a very high price. And really, for what? To take the moral high ground? That's something I admire in people, but let's face it: Thedas sucks--especially if you're an elf. Tallis doesn't have much incentive to renounce the Qun. In exchange for taking the moral high ground, she has to find her own identity outside that philosophy; which I'm not sure she can. She also has to survive reprisal from the Qunari and possibly deal with enemies that won't care if she's left the Qunari behind. All that to get treated as an outcast and wander the rest of her life.

I guess what I'm getting at is even if she is a cowardly hypocrite, I don't blame her for being one.

[randomcheeses]

Seagloom wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I probably shouldn't have put it quite like that. It's quite likely she's mentally ill in some way, and isn't at fault for that. If it's the source for all of this cognitive dissonance, then I apologize and hope she can find healing. If not... I stand by the "cowardly hypocrite" part.

I imagine her life under the Qunari was easier than the slavery she knew previously. I can see how someone might believe she is cowardly. I'm not so sure about that since bravery in her case would come at a very high price. And really, for what? To take the moral high ground? That's something I admire in people, but let's face it: Thedas sucks--especially if you're an elf. Tallis doesn't have much incentive to renounce the Qun. In exchange for taking the moral high ground, she has to find her own identity outside that philosophy; which I'm not sure she can. She also has to survive reprisal from the Qunari and possibly deal with enemies that won't care if she's left the Qunari behind. All that to get treated as an outcast and wander the rest of her life.

I guess what I'm getting at is even if she is a cowardly hypocrite, I don't blame her for being one.

I don't blame her for being a hypocrite either, but what annoys the crap out of me is the fact that Hawke can't call her out on her 'the Qun is great' bull****. Especially my mage Hawke.

[Seagloom]

Noted. That is a valid complaint. Since we're on this subject I may as well voice a related concern: why is it Tallis gets flak for bad game design? I can understand disliking Tallis based on her personality, commentary, harboring negative views of the Qunari and the Quin philosophy in general.

What I do not understand is disliking her based on bad writing and game design. Not that I'm stating it's what you were doing, randomcheeses. As I wrote, it's a valid complaint. I just feel criticizing the character based on bad execution enters into scapegoating territory. In my opinion it ignores what a character is really about to analyze them from that perspective.

Modifié par Seagloom, 27 octobre 2011 - 10:47 .

[Xilizhra]

Seagloom wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I probably shouldn't have put it quite like that. It's quite likely she's mentally ill in some way, and isn't at fault for that. If it's the source for all of this cognitive dissonance, then I apologize and hope she can find healing. If not... I stand by the "cowardly hypocrite" part.

I imagine her life under the Qunari was easier than the slavery she knew previously. I can see how someone might believe she is cowardly. I'm not so sure about that since bravery in her case would come at a very high price. And really, for what? To take the moral high ground? That's something I admire in people, but let's face it: Thedas sucks--especially if you're an elf. Tallis doesn't have much incentive to renounce the Qun. In exchange for taking the moral high ground, she has to find her own identity outside that philosophy; which I'm not sure she can. She also has to survive reprisal from the Qunari and possibly deal with enemies that won't care if she's left the Qunari behind. All that to get treated as an outcast and wander the rest of her life.

I guess what I'm getting at is even if she is a cowardly hypocrite, I don't blame her for being one.

It's not just to take the moral high ground, it's to stop the Qun from advancing. That'd be a very real gain. And this may be another design flaw, but, well, she could stay with Hawke. It worked for Fenris, and he seemed to have it worse than Tallis when it came to slavery. And I doubt much reprisal from the qunari could touch Hawke after she killed the Arishok and forced the rest of his army into retreat.

[Seagloom]

Except she believes in the Qun. Why would she want to stop the Qunari advance if not to take a moral stand? Although honestly, that is fan fiction fodder since it is clear Tallis is not an altruist and will not take a moral stand.

Tallis gains nothing by allying with Hawke at that stage in her life. With the Qunari she has a comfortable and valued position. She clearly does not feel she owes Hawke anything. She owes Chantry controlled lands even less with their treatment of elves. It was in lands outside Qunari control that Tallis was mistreated and enslaved in a more literal sense. Unless she becomes a saintly altruist, it would be foolish from her perspective to side with Hawke and work against the Qunari advance.

Modifié par Seagloom, 27 octobre 2011 - 01:40 .