301 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I thought she didn't believe in the Qun, at least no the Saarebas part.

[Seagloom]

She doesn't like it, but she's not willing to walk away from the whole kit and kaboodle over it either. There's an abyss of difference between disagreeing with a cultural norm or philosophical tenet, and turning away from it completely. For example, look at how contentious the mage question is among all the peoples who follow the Chantry.

Modifié par Seagloom, 27 octobre 2011 - 01:54 .

[Gervaise]

It is annoying that you can't actually call her out on the fact that she only seems to promote the positive aspects of the Qun and conveniently ignores the less savoury aspects. Occasionally your companions may take her to task but you can miss this if you get too far in front of them and it seems to be random, so you may not necessarily get the same conversation with the same companions on each run through. With the Chantry you actually get to confront Elthina directly, and tell her she's useless if you wish. Ditto members of the Templar order - you can at least say something. There are aspects of the Chantry that I have yet to be able to challenge them over but at least I am allowed to say to Sebastian in the Gallows (if I have the right character requisites) and we are on the side of the mages, that Andraste would be lighting fires and shouting freedom with them, and in response he admits that she always stood for the oppressed.

But you sit there in a prison cell with Tallis with her asking if you never felt part of something bigger and the best response they can give you is "I'm Champion", and then you can't say about how you have earned your way to your position and that (if you are a mage) in her culture you wouldn't be sitting there with her now because you made a free choice to help her and mages aren't permitted to make those sorts of decisions. Even in the Circle you are allowed a degree of freedom within its confines and Bethany was allowed to attend the party without some keeper standing over her with an electrified stick should she stray out of line. Unless you do MoA in Act 1 before Shepherding Wolves, when in theory Hawke does have only limited experience of the Qunari, you have actual incidents that can be called upon to challenge her with that would at least help you to clarify your understanding. Since I have only done MoA in Act 3, her idealistic portrayal of the Qun simply annoys me and I want to emphasise why I am called the Champion, because I oppose everything the Qun stands for. I also object to the social structure in Orlais and the Chantry's corruption of Andraste's teaching. May be it has to do with being a Ferelden dog soldier, a country that isn't perfect but where individual effort is admired and frequently rewarded and where the king rules by consent rather than by divine right. However, since we are not permitted to say any of these things - I simply sit there and fume.

[Xilizhra]

Seagloom wrote...

She doesn't like it, but she's not willing to walk away from the whole kit and kaboodle over it either. There's an abyss of difference between disagreeing with a cultural norm or philosophical tenet, and turning away from it completely. For example, look at how contentious the mage question is among all the peoples who follow the Chantry.

The fact that she only "dislikes" it is telling, and one of the major reasons I don't like her. She's as useless, though technically not as criminally negligent, as Elthina, someone whose death I didn't mourn overmuch. I'm not fond of killing, but I can't say I'd lose any sleep over killing Tallis.

[Seagloom]

Xilizhra wrote...

The fact that she only "dislikes" it is telling, and one of the major reasons I don't like her. She's as useless, though technically not as criminally negligent, as Elthina, someone whose death I didn't mourn overmuch. I'm not fond of killing, but I can't say I'd lose any sleep over killing Tallis.

Would you prefer it if she was a one dimensional zealot that made the likes of Sten cringe? Really, her attitude is immaterial since Tallis simply does what she is told. She may have taken initiative in this case for her own reasons, but it does not make her negligent. If anything, she is still supporting her benefactors in the process.

I have no interest in killing her, personally. Not so much because I like her. I'm still on undecided on whether I do or not. But because she is a small cog in a very big machine. Killing her would be like cutting a weed. Sure, you might feel momentarily satisfied, but the roots remain and more weeds will grow eventually.

Modifié par Seagloom, 27 octobre 2011 - 02:15 .

[Xilizhra]

Seagloom wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The fact that she only "dislikes" it is telling, and one of the major reasons I don't like her. She's as useless, though technically not as criminally negligent, as Elthina, someone whose death I didn't mourn overmuch. I'm not fond of killing, but I can't say I'd lose any sleep over killing Tallis.

Would you prefer it if she was a one dimensional zealot that made the likes of Sten cringe? Really, her attitude is immaterial since Tallis simply does what she is told. She may have taken initiative in this case for her own reasons, but it does not make her negligent. If anything, she is still supporting her benefactors in the process.

I have no interest in killing her, personally. Not so much because I like her. I'm still on undecided on whether I do or not. But because she is a small cog in a very big machine. Killing her would be like cutting a weed. Sure, you might feel momentarily satisfied, but the roots remain and more weeds will grow eventually.

I'd rather that I get a chance to talk to her more and actually adequately explain my own position.

[jamesp81]

I liked the writing that went into her character.

I did not like her as a person. She's either naive about what she claims to believe, or she really is so callous that she'd help inflict the Qun on everyone.

I was quite willing to utilize the murder-knife for the mere fact that she is a qunari engaged in espionage against a nation whose help I might need to stop the qunari. Granted, she wasn't exactly on good terms with them, but that makes little difference to me. If it were in my power, I'd have taken the scroll and handed it to Duke Prosper without regret.

Well, maybe a little regret. Prosper was a huge douche. Maybe I'd have handed to Empress Celene instead.

Edit:

I'm not hung up on the fact that it was Felicia Day.  I thought she did a fine job.  She's talented, and I don't see why people are complaining about BW hiring higher tier talent when they can.

Modifié par jamesp81, 27 octobre 2011 - 03:13 .

[TEWR]

Dalira Montanti wrote...

I would not say she was terrible I just found her boring, and flirt options with her were umm rather odd, why would you fall for someone you just met?

People sometimes fall in love with people they've just met in our society too. 

Hawke is also able to immediately flirt with all of the other companions after he recruits them, as well as the Dalish girl on Sundermount in Act 3 and Orlanna in the Wounded Coast (though the latter remains oblivious).

Now, if you mean Tallis then she didn't fall in love with Hawke. She just says that she's jealous of the LI for being with Hawke because she probably would've gone for Hawke too. Does that mean Tallis loves Hawke? No, but it does mean Tallis is attracted to Hawke. Not just physically but spiritually and perhaps emotionally attracted to him.

It could've led to nothing. It could've been a case of true love.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 octobre 2011 - 03:24 .

[Seagloom]

Think film romance where two characters are swept together under extraordinary circumstances that are by no means realistic. Also think about what passes for romance in Mass Effect 2. >.>

Modifié par Seagloom, 27 octobre 2011 - 03:20 .

[lobi]

I Love Her!

Modifié par lobi, 27 octobre 2011 - 03:30 .

[jamesp81]

Filament wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Filament wrote...
Only because anti-qunari Hawkes are drooling idiots.

Please, enlighten me to your logic. It seems pretty reasonable that one can role play an anti-Qunari Hawke without coming across as a drolling idiot. Especially if mage class.

It wasn't intended to be a serious comment, but I do find it hard to accept a rationale for doing Petrice's bidding when she unashamedly threw you to the wolves in your first meeting, and then going along with Varnell's plan to slit the throats of some random qunari he kidnapped and tied to a pole in front of a lynch mob, and then being a-ok with her murdering Seamus to promote her cause. Not liking the qunari or their philosophy is one thing, but that all just seems ridiculous to me. I understand other people have different opinions about this.

My Hawke is very anti-qunari but he didn't do any of that stuff.

First of all, kidnapping and murdering a diplomatic delegation is a big no no.  Dumar was trying to make peace with the qunari, a worthwhile goal, so I helped him instead of siding with  that jackass Varnell.  Seamus Dumar was an idiot, but not one that deserved what happened to him.  I was supporting the Viscount as best I could, and I sympathized that he was worried about his son, so I helped him.  Simple as that.

Petrice was a **** who callously used me.  If she'd told me what she was trying to do, I might've been more sympathetic to her goal, if not supportive of her methods (yet, as it turned out.  Once the Arishok decided to burn the city, I started having second thoughts).  As it was, she was nothing but a troublemaker.  I felt nothing but satisfaction when she died.  I only wish I could've killed the qunari that did it, then my day would've been complete.  One dead troublemaker and one dead qunari makes for a happy Garrett Hawke.

All this said, my Hawke detests the qun and everything it stands for.  Running a sword through the Arishok was a satisfying thing for him to do, and did the whole world a favor by putting that rabid dog out of everyone else's misery.

In fact, my Hawkes are so anti-qunari that they always refuse the duel with the Arishok.  If you refuse the duel, you fight all the Qunari in the keep, which means more dead qunari.  That's a plus AFAIC.

I do wish that an aggressive Hawke got a slightly different execution animation after the Arishok was defeated.  I'd have preferred to cut him off (literally) mid-sentence while he was muttering about returning.

Modifié par jamesp81, 27 octobre 2011 - 03:39 .

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dalira Montanti wrote...

I would not say she was terrible I just found her boring, and flirt options with her were umm rather odd, why would you fall for someone you just met?

People sometimes fall in love with people they've just met in our society too. 

Hawke is also able to immediately flirt with all of the other companions after he recruits them, as well as the Dalish girl on Sundermount in Act 3 and Orlanna in the Wounded Coast (though the latter remains oblivious).

Now, if you mean Tallis then she didn't fall in love with Hawke. She just says that she's jealous of the LI for being with Hawke because she probably would've gone for Hawke too. Does that mean Tallis loves Hawke? No, but it does mean Tallis is attracted to Hawke. Not just physically but spiritually and perhaps emotionally attracted to him.

It could've led to nothing. It could've been a case of true love.

I doubt she'd have stayed with my Hawkes when she found out killing hornheads and templars is among his favorite past times.

[Seagloom]

jamesp81 wrote...

I doubt she'd have stayed with my Hawkes when she found out killing hornheads and templars is among his favorite past times.

My Hawke's favorite pasttime is water polo.

[dragonflight288]

Talis: You look at the Qunari and see tyranny. I look at them and see caring.

In Redemption.

Talis: I was a slave; my parent's sold me into it. The Qunari gave me refuge, a purpose, and a name

Sounds to me like Talis was raised by city elves and saw more than enough of Andrastian compassion to the "knife-ears" or second-class citizens. She's just another elf to everyone in Thedas. To the Qunari, she has value. She has a purpose, and is no better or worse than any other human. The Qun sees all as potentially useful based on their talents and not their race.

Then I compare her to the city elves who go to the Arishok in Act 2 because a city guard (under Aveline who is most definitely not corrupt) raped their sister and got away with it, because no one cares about elves.

I can easily see why she would consider the Qunari superior to Andrastian beliefs. And she does say it isn't perfect, but she's better off as Qunari than a City Elf.

[jamesp81]

Seagloom wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I doubt she'd have stayed with my Hawkes when she found out killing hornheads and templars is among his favorite past times.

My Hawke's favorite pasttime is water polo.

Really?  Water polo with severed qunari heads??

[Seagloom]

jamesp81 wrote...

Really?  Water polo with severed qunari heads??

Just plain water polo. Severed heads start to stink after awhile. She only plays on weekends when her regular croquet opponent is unavailable.

Modifié par Seagloom, 27 octobre 2011 - 03:57 .

[lobi]

ah nvr mnd

Modifié par lobi, 27 octobre 2011 - 04:02 .

[jamesp81]

Seagloom wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Really?  Water polo with severed qunari heads??

Just plain water polo. Severed heads start to stink after awhile. She only plays on weekends when her regular croquet opponent is unavailable.

Bummer.  The horns add spice to the game, she should try it some time.

[Gabey5]

the moment she entered the area doing the back flips i wanted here dead

hawke kills generic mercs hourly, we are not impressed.

If she enetered using some intelligence or saved hawke using her sharp mind in some non combat situation then i would have been impressed, because hawke can't do that if his life depended on it

[TEWR]

jamesp81 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dalira Montanti wrote...

I would not say she was terrible I just found her boring, and flirt options with her were umm rather odd, why would you fall for someone you just met?

People sometimes fall in love with people they've just met in our society too. 

Hawke is also able to immediately flirt with all of the other companions after he recruits them, as well as the Dalish girl on Sundermount in Act 3 and Orlanna in the Wounded Coast (though the latter remains oblivious).

Now, if you mean Tallis then she didn't fall in love with Hawke. She just says that she's jealous of the LI for being with Hawke because she probably would've gone for Hawke too. Does that mean Tallis loves Hawke? No, but it does mean Tallis is attracted to Hawke. Not just physically but spiritually and perhaps emotionally attracted to him.

It could've led to nothing. It could've been a case of true love.

I doubt she'd have stayed with my Hawkes when she found out killing hornheads and templars is among his favorite past times.

Well, she doesn't even have horns so your Hawkes have no issue with her. Technicalities for the win!

[Cobra's_back]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Talis: You look at the Qunari and see tyranny. I look at them and see caring.

In Redemption.

Talis: I was a slave; my parent's sold me into it. The Qunari gave me refuge, a purpose, and a name

Sounds to me like Talis was raised by city elves and saw more than enough of Andrastian compassion to the "knife-ears" or second-class citizens. She's just another elf to everyone in Thedas. To the Qunari, she has value. She has a purpose, and is no better or worse than any other human. The Qun sees all as potentially useful based on their talents and not their race.

Then I compare her to the city elves who go to the Arishok in Act 2 because a city guard (under Aveline who is most definitely not corrupt) raped their sister and got away with it, because no one cares about elves.

I can easily see why she would consider the Qunari superior to Andrastian beliefs. And she does say it isn't perfect, but she's better off as Qunari than a City Elf.

I'm okay with her beliefs. I don’t have to share them. What I don’t like is the dishonesty. It would have been better if Talis was honest and offered Hawke a copy of the scroll, money or experience points.

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dalira Montanti wrote...

I would not say she was terrible I just found her boring, and flirt options with her were umm rather odd, why would you fall for someone you just met?

People sometimes fall in love with people they've just met in our society too. 

Hawke is also able to immediately flirt with all of the other companions after he recruits them, as well as the Dalish girl on Sundermount in Act 3 and Orlanna in the Wounded Coast (though the latter remains oblivious).

Now, if you mean Tallis then she didn't fall in love with Hawke. She just says that she's jealous of the LI for being with Hawke because she probably would've gone for Hawke too. Does that mean Tallis loves Hawke? No, but it does mean Tallis is attracted to Hawke. Not just physically but spiritually and perhaps emotionally attracted to him.

It could've led to nothing. It could've been a case of true love.

I doubt she'd have stayed with my Hawkes when she found out killing hornheads and templars is among his favorite past times.

Well, she doesn't even have horns so your Hawkes have no issue with her. Technicalities for the win!

ANDRASTE'S GREAT BLAZING SWORD, YOU'RE RIGHT!

I'll have to re-think the whole thing:lol:

[Ketshamine]

Honestly the idea of her character was a tolerable one. My only complaint comes from Talis herself being ugly as sin and the fact that Felicia Day is a horrible voice. Had the character been a native sympathizer or something more along the likes of Zevern in look and sound the dlc would of been pretty much a perfectly solid thing. That said I was hoping for a chance to kill her off (really, really freaking ugly)

[Gervaise]

Dragon Flight says: "Sounds to me like Talis was raised by city elves and saw more than enough of Andrastian compassion to the "knife-ears" or second-class citizens. She's just another elf to everyone in Thedas. To the Qunari, she has value. She has a purpose, and is no better or worse than any other human. The Qun sees all as potentially useful based on their talents and not their race.

Then I compare her to the city elves who go to the Arishok in Act 2 because a city guard (under Aveline who is most definitely not corrupt) raped their sister and got away with it, because no one cares about elves.

I can easily see why she would consider the Qunari superior to Andrastian beliefs. And she does say it isn't perfect, but she's better off as Qunari than a City Elf. "

Sebastian admits that may be their rulers/the Chantry have only themselvs to blame if alienage elves are turning to the Qun.   People are allowed to constantly challenge his beliefs.  In fact as the game goes on  and he sees more of life outside of the Chantry and the privileged world of the nobles, you get a definite sense he is beginning to question the accepted order.   Last play through my Hawke when supporting the mages the dialogue prompt "It was the right thing to do" finally came up with the sort of speech I wanted "Andraste would be lighting fires and yelling freedom with them."   His response "I always imagined her more dignified than that but she always stood up for the oppressed."     I honestly don't think a Qun that we have been presented with thus far, would concede such a major contradiction of the official line as that.

If Tallis was sold into slavery by her own parents, the only city elves who are known to do this live in Tevinter and do it in order to better their own lives. According to the codexes non slave elves actually have a better time of it than elsewhere in Thedas, even if slave elves have it so much worse.   So I can understand why she wouldn't think she was loosing much in family values by joining the Qun.    I can also understand why she might not be that bothered by the treatment of mages, having witnessed mages in power first hand.   Which version of the Chantry she is familiar with may not be relevant, since to my mind both are a warped interpretation of what Andraste actually taught.

Fenris was also raised in Tevinter.  At the time he escaped Denarius, he doesn't remember anything of his family, so he would not have anything to regret by joining the Qun.   He knows how badly elves are treated by people who regard them as little more than chattels.  He saw a little boy sacrificed on the whim of a human who wanted to impress others.  However, the fog warriors give him insight into Qun society from the point of view of people who have escaped it.  If he had wished, he could have taken the path of the elf brothers - had he joined the Qun he need never have feared Denarius again, yet he did not.    During his time with Hawke he has plenty of opportunity to see the corruption in Thedas society, yet when he looks for spiritual guidance, he still favours the Maker and Andrase, or nothing at all, over the Qun.  (He has issues with the Chantry interpretation of the Maker but still believes in that Divine Force)     

Fenris has been made aware of the downside of the Qun religion and clearly considers the bad aspects far outweigh the good.  Many of the characters have their own interpretation of Andrastrian belief which governs how they approach life and whilst this may contradict the Chantry, their own minds are free to do so - it is not part of their belief that they must surrender their individuality.  Either Tallis is ignorant of the implications of the full extent of her beliefs or she is trying to get to the point where she can accept them without question even though she knows she has doubts about them.   Neither is a particularly attractive thought and I would not be happy with having to accept her as companion in the future unless we are allowed to address the issue properly with her or she has in fact turned Tal'Vashoth.