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[Maria13]

I guess there is the possibility that Flemeth and her ilk ARE the dragons... After all the first one in modern times was seen shortly after Maric and Loghain met her.

[Brockololly]

Maria13 wrote...

I guess there is the possibility that Flemeth and her ilk ARE the dragons... After all the first one in modern times was seen shortly after Maric and Loghain met her.

Yeah, I wouldn't doubt that either. That maybe Flemeth is really an Old God level dragon and Morrigan was trying to achieve that level of "dragon power" or something via the OGB.

I'll just be happy for some interesting dragon/Witch of the Wilds lore that hopefully makes sense. For being called DRAGON Age there hasn't been too much going on with actual dragons.

[Blacklash93]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Even if they do "justify" it, it still is a weak move.

It's not like Mass Effect has never been there. Destroyed the Collector Base? Cerberus gets the technology anyway. Killed the council? Citadel forces still won't believe Shepard.

The former seemed to work rather well for Karpyshyn in his Mass Effect novels Hell, he even had only a mere instance of a 'retcon', one which was far more justified and believable than "I got better".

It did work well for Karpyshyn, but that's not the only way of doing things.

They made hugely interesting worlds, great stories and great characters, but after a "decade" in the open-air prison that was Kirkwall I cannot really vie for that anymore.

DA2 still had a decent character-driven story, great characters, and there was still the same interesting world of Thedas.

Oh please, even a random run of the mill shooter has a better story than DA2.

This is the part where I stop taking you seriously.

Morality means little if there's no player agency, and it's far from grey and grey in BioWare's latest "masterpiece".

Morality means much no matter what in the context of the narrative. Haven't you ever read a book where you've questioned who's right in the conflict? I'm pretty sure you're given no agency in those. Hawke given lack of choice does not take away at how polarizing the mage vs. templar conflict is for people.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 16 octobre 2011 - 09:34 .

[Blacklash93]

Brockololly wrote...
I'll just be happy for some interesting dragon/Witch of the Wilds lore that hopefully makes sense. For being called DRAGON Age there hasn't been too much going on with actual dragons.

I'm going to shamelessly plug in my new group right here: http://social.bioware.com/group/5115/

[Annihilator27]

Im curious to see Allistars role in this.

[Demx]

So who's the straight man?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, linked  on youtube right here

So we know that it has something to do with Alistair- most likely his parentage, based on how Gaider mentioned it tying into the books, its got something to do with a Witch of the Wilds, which is either Morrigan or a sister and a secret revolving around dragons.

Why can't it be another incarnation of Flemeth? DA2 already proves there could be more than one of her flying around Thedas.

Edit: 'Flemeth's daughters' could end up being a misnomer.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 16 octobre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Brockololly]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, linked  on youtube right here

So we know that it has something to do with Alistair- most likely his parentage, based on how Gaider mentioned it tying into the books, its got something to do with a Witch of the Wilds, which is either Morrigan or a sister and a secret revolving around dragons.

Why can't it be another incarnation of Flemeth? DA2 already proves there could be more than one of her flying around Thedas.

Edit: 'Flemeth's daughters' could end up being a misnomer.

Of course it could get back to the theory that Flemeth = Morrigan, and in turn Flemeth = All other Witches of the Wild.

[element eater]

so basicly some of this story is cannon and some isn't

i wish they would do something similar to mass effect and make the extra material based around stuff that's constant in every game so it doesn't have to do this whole 'what if' scenario. Continually doing this will simply damage the consistency of the da universe which has already taken hits with da2

[Blacklash93]

element eater wrote...

so basicly some of this story is cannon and some isn't

i wish they would do something similar to mass effect and make the extra material based around stuff that's constant in every game so it doesn't have to do this whole 'what if' scenario. Continually doing this will simply damage the consistency of the da universe which has already taken hits with da2

The heart of the DA universe is in the games. What happens in these comics and books does not damage the consistency in them. Your canon is your canon.

I think revisiting old characters will make these extensions of the DA world more enjoyable. I don't want them to be avoided just because a minority of people decided to kill Alistair or whatever.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 17 octobre 2011 - 12:35 .

[element eater]

Blacklash93 wrote.
The heart of the DA universe is in the games. What happens in these comics and books does not damage the consistency in them. Your canon is your canon.

yeh but then the DA2 also seemed to ovewrite my cannon and lots of other peoples I imagine. Its like every story in the da world is set around a slightly differant series of events which i think is damaging to the overal worth of the series

I think revisiting old characters will make these extensions of the DA world more enjoyable. I don't want them to be avoided just because a minority of people decided to kill Leliana or whatever.

i have no issue reusing characters initself but why re use characters with such variable states. Imo if they must re use characters in this way they should limit the extent to which the player can alter the fates of them in the first place. Which i have no issue with. I would much rather they had stories which could add to the world and the games we play within it then simply providing with a scenario that either makes our game redundant or or as a story remains utterly pointless because it more than likely wont fit with our games

Modifié par element eater, 17 octobre 2011 - 01:00 .

[Blacklash93]

element eater wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote.
The heart of the DA universe is in the games. What happens in these comics and books does not damage the consistency in them. Your canon is your canon.

yeh but then the DA2 also seemed to ovewrite my cannon and lots of other peoples I imagine. Its like every story in the da world is set around a slightly differant series of events which i think is damaging to the overal worth of the series

I think revisiting old characters will make these extensions of the DA world more enjoyable. I don't want them to be avoided just because a minority of people decided to kill Leliana or whatever.

i have no issue reusing characters initself but why re use characters with such variable states. Imo i think if they re use characters in this way they should limit the extent to which the player can alter the fates of them, Which i have no issue with. I would much rather they had stories which could add to the world and the games we play within it then simply providing with a scenario that either makes our game redundant or or as a story remains utterly pointless because it more than likely wont fit with our games

DA2 didn't overwrite anyone's game. Everything that didn't was caused by an import bug. If you're going to bring up Leliana, keep in mind that you did attempt to kill her and nothing changes that, but that doesn't mean she didn't somehow survive.

If Bioware limits the fate of party characters, then people will start complaining again about lack of player agency. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[kyles3]

element eater wrote...

Its like every story in the da world is set around a slightly differant series of events which i think is damaging to the overal worth of the series

I think there's definitely some truth to this. If Alistair were to die in this comic, would anyone be moved by his death when he's still alive in many of our DA2 saves? While I appreciate the freedom afforded the writers by the "no canon" approach, I fear if it may end up undermining the integrity of the stories they're trying to tell.

Modifié par kyles3, 17 octobre 2011 - 01:21 .

[element eater]

Blacklash93 wrote...

DA2 didn't overwrite anyone's game. Everything that didn't was caused by an import bug. If you're going to bring up Leliana, keep in mind that you did attempt to kill her and nothing changes that, but that doesn't mean she didn't somehow survive.

If Bioware limits the fate of party characters, then people will start complaining again about lack of player agency. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

actually I was more referring to my Dalish warden whose ending is pretty much entirely overwritten/made redundent by da2. I have never actually killed Leliana. As to bugs unless they get fixed than they are part of the game and to my knowledge Zev is still bugged.

you can retain choice and consequence within the game without giving you life and death control over every party member in the game.

Modifié par element eater, 17 octobre 2011 - 01:25 .

[Blacklash93]

element eater wrote...

actually I was more referring to my Dalish warden whose ending is pretty much entirely overwritten/made redundent by da2.

How would DA2 overwrite your Dalish Warden?

[tmp7704]

csfteeeer wrote...

EDIT: And why can't they just canonize the warden with a specific Race and gender?
i mean, aren't they doing that with Revan?

There was no species selection for Revan to begin with, just the gender. And there's little to gain from defining that one way or the other -- the sequel at least wasn't any worse off by allowing the player to determine it themselves.

So i guess one answer to your question could be, "what for"? Why can't people instead just stop attaching so much value to some nebulous "canon" and simply enjoy the content of the stories alone?

[element eater]

well for a start he went back to his clan yet there is no sign of him around in da2 so that aspect of his ending is undone and secondly his biggest achievement (from his perspective) was to gain lands in ferelden for the Dalish and yet nonsensically his clan has gone to a location in which they are not only un welcome but actively engaged in hostilities with the locals add to that Merril is now a new character and it doesn't really feel like much of my Dalish elves game is present in da2 

that may not make much sense am imensly tired 

Modifié par element eater, 17 octobre 2011 - 02:06 .

[tmp7704]

kyles3 wrote...

If Alistair were to die in this comic, would anyone be moved by his death when he's still alive in many of our DA2 saves?

If it's a moving death then sure, why not? Pretty certain people were capable of being moved by character's death in one of their playthroughs while the same character survived in another playthrough. This is no different.

[Blacklash93]

It amuses me how people are threatening to give up on DA just because the series takes a few liberties with the canon in other media that has no effect on their game.

This is just a story Gaider wanted to tell and he isn't going to let few people who feel threatened by an alternate storyline get in the way of that. Just enjoy the lore that these things will bring to the series.

I don't want the fact that Alistair could die in Origins make him a nobody for the rest of the series and I'm sure there are plenty of people who would agree with me. If Bioware has to take some liberties and lose a few fans to do such things, then so be it. That's their loss.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 17 octobre 2011 - 02:14 .

[ArtRogue]

I will buy this when it comes out because I am a sucker for lore. Also, Varric and Alistair are among my favorite characters. I don't mind the alternate cannon to my Warden's so much.

Maria13 wrote...

I guess there is the possibility that Flemeth and her ilk ARE the dragons... After all the first one in modern times was seen shortly after Maric and Loghain met her.

I think so too. When Hawke meets Flemeth for the first time and asks her about her shapeshifting, she said something like, "maybe I am a dragon."

(Semi-off topic...the idea reminds me of when I played NWN 1, and Deekin tells the PC that "Big Master" used to change into a human so he could eat pies, lol. Some themes do seem to carry over between different Bioware games, so you never know.)

Modifié par ArtRogue, 17 octobre 2011 - 02:36 .

[kyles3]

tmp7704 wrote...

If it's a moving death then sure, why not? Pretty certain people were capable of being moved by character's death in one of their playthroughs while the same character survived in another playthrough. This is no different.

But in the game you can just do another playthrough and make things turn out however you want; Alistair's fate is ultimately up to you. A comic book, on the other hand, is a non-interactive medium that gives you no say in the matter. The helpless feeling you get when you see a character you've come to love die (Watchmen , anyone?) makes a lasting impact because it happened and there's nothing you can do to change it.

If nothing's going to really happen to anyone, if the slate's going to be wiped clean for DA3, then why bother? What are the stakes? What reason is there to get invested in this story?

[Brockololly]

kyles3 wrote...
If nothing's going to really happen to anyone, if the slate's going to be wiped clean for DA3, then why bother? What are the stakes? What reason is there to get invested in this story?

Thats a good question really- If we're saying that this comic is BioWare's own canon but they'll still respect the player's individual canon for future games, doesn't that effectively make Varric, Alistair and Isabela "safe" for the comic so long as they're ok in any given player's individual game universe?

Obviously you can have big lore revelations and uncover backstory on the characters, but will any possible character development from these comics transfer over to the main games, should Isabela, Varric or Alistair show up in the games again? What elements from the comics will dictate future events in the games? Since at least I think the games are still the bread and butter of the franchise, right?

Modifié par Brockololly, 17 octobre 2011 - 03:00 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

ArtRogue wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

I guess there is the possibility that Flemeth and her ilk ARE the dragons... After all the first one in modern times was seen shortly after Maric and Loghain met her.

I think so too. When Hawke meets Flemeth for the first time and asks her about her shapeshifting, she said something like, "maybe I am a dragon."

Well, it'll contradict the devs' own words that dragons are just animals, no more magically inclined than bears or wolves.

If they turn out to be magical shapeshifting beasts who can talk after all, I'll be disappointed.

[tmp7704]

kyles3 wrote...

But in the game you can just do another playthrough and make things turn out however you want; Alistair's fate is ultimately up to you.

Yes, but the question was whether people can find an event moving even when it's something that isn't 100% fixed. And the experience shows, they can.
 

If nothing's going to really happen to anyone, if the slate's going to be wiped clean for DA3, then why bother? What are the stakes? What reason is there to get invested in this story?

Why do people bother to write and read fan-fiction? None of what's written in these stories 'happen' in the sense you use this word. It doesn't need to be about "stakes", it can be simply about enjoying a well-written story able to invoke reader's emotions.

[Blacklash93]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Well, it'll contradict the devs' own words that dragons are just animals, no more magically inclined than bears or wolves.

If they turn out to be magical shapeshifting beasts who can talk after all, I'll be disappointed.

Gaider also said at one point before Origins came out that there would be no golem like HK-47. Then we had Shale. Yeah... And I think the properties of dragon blood and bones throws the theory that there's nothing magical about them out of the window.

I'd be disappointed if they could ALL talk and do magic and what-have-you, but some dragons should be involved in the story. It is called DRAGON Age, after all.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 17 octobre 2011 - 03:45 .