893 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Corker wrote...
The how of it is what raised my eyebrow.  It wasn't done in battle - it was a surprise-attack assassination that Zevran would have found acceptable journeyman work.  Not exactly what I expect from Alistair, though.

OTOH, that *is* the best way to deal with a mage you want to take down - don't let them get a spell off.  And he was trained as a templar.

For me it is definitely the "why" that I find perplexing.  I suppose, as someone mentioned, I would have expected more from a grown-up Alistair than just to murder-knife a witch that he sought out, for being exactly as you would expect a creepy swamp witch to be only more accommadating and less murderous.

I dunno.  Maybe I am expecting too much.  Who needs character motivations and plot developments that make sense when you have bursting corsets and swashbuckling mayhem.

[Reznore57]

Well if you think about it , it's the first time Alistair really in charge.
He never decided anything for himself , there were always people around him telling him were to go what to do.
The chantry,Duncan, The warden , once king anora or bann teagan.
Maybe that's a way to show that he break up with that pattern .It's pretty violent but he wants to find his father , not being dragged in another thing he hasn't ask for.

[Addai]

So in establishing himself as a leader he does something murderous and impulsive and wastes a potential ally? Not very impressive.

I wonder if this was meant to parallel Maric's killing of Katriel. That, however- while still rash and violent- had far more justification. Beyond revenge, if it had gotten out that the prince was sleeping with the enemy, it could have ruined Maric's kingship, as Loghain knew. So it was more than just killing someone as a kind of gang initiation into Theirin kingship. Bleargh.

[Maria13]

The Katriel thing occurred to me too, yeah, I do think there's a parallel there and to some extent the circumstances are similar.

Yvana puts a hand on his face and is about to kiss him. Given the danger or imminent danger of being bespelled as well as what happened with Morrie, obviously Alistair is going to see a red mist. As Corker pointed out it is also the best way of dispatching a mage or a magical being such as Yvana.

Everyone knows I'm an alistairian but I do see the plus side of this.

Modifié par Maria13, 03 mai 2012 - 07:27 .

[brushyourteeth]

If Flemeth really did possess her in some way ("it's a gift"), she'll probably be back from the dead to take her vengeance.

[Addai]

Maria13 wrote...
Yvana puts a hand on his face and is about to kiss him. Given the danger or imminent danger of being bespelled as well as what happened with Morrie, obviously Alistair is going to see a red mist. As Corker pointed out it is also the best way of dispatching a mage or a magical being such as Yvana.

Everyone knows I'm an alistairian but I do see the plus side of this.

He has templar abilities, non-lethal means of blocking spells or dispelling.  I would expect the sword of mercy from Cullen, maybe, but not Alistair.  What happened with Morrigan was that she offered them a deal that saved someone's life.  If he's still bitter enough about that to kill an entirely different swamp witch for vaguely reminding him of it...

I suppose this would be satisfying to those who raged about not getting to kill Morrigan and her baby just for daring to touch Alistair.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 mai 2012 - 07:48 .

[David Gaider]

Addai67 wrote...
I dunno.  Maybe I am expecting too much.  Who needs character motivations and plot developments that make sense when you have bursting corsets and swashbuckling mayhem.

Alistair wasn't seeking out Yavana. He was searching for his father. Yavana says that she will help him find his father, yes... if he's willing to get drawn into her web. The same web that caught up Maric and thus Ferelden itself. This is a woman who has been manipulative from the moment they met, using him as bait to get Aurelian Titus' name-- for Alistair's sake? Highly unlikely. The idea that him saying "no thanks" and trying to walk away, or somehow holding out hope that he could get more information out of her that wouldn't be some kind of deception, would be somehow the more mature and sensible path is a bit hard to credit (considering how well that worked out with Morrigan-- from his perspective).

Is Alistair doing the compassionate, white-knight thing here? Hardly. But, hey, if someone doesn't like what a character does, it's easier to just say it doesn't make any sense. Who needs to stop and think about something when you can just just declare that it's stupid "swashbuckling mayhem"?

Sorry you didn't like it.

And thank you to those who read the entire series and enjoyed it! Hope you enjoy the story arc as it continues-- and, before someone asks-- yes, there is a finite length to this arc and a definite ending.

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 mai 2012 - 09:01 .

[Brockololly]

Addai67 wrote...
He has templar abilities, non-lethal means of blocking spells or dispelling.  I would expect the sword of mercy from Cullen, maybe, but not Alistair.  What happened with Morrigan was that she offered them a deal that saved someone's life.  If he's still bitter enough about that to kill an entirely different swamp witch for vaguely reminding him of it...

I suppose this would be satisfying to those who raged about not getting to kill Morrigan and her baby just for daring to touch Alistair.

Then again, considering the last time a Witch of the Wilds was stabbed in the gut, I don't know how effective that is.

Just seems like a very goonish thing to do- instead of trying to hear her out at least and make Yavana an ally, he just shanks her cause he is mistrusting of her? Seems pretty myopic and reminiscent of Alistair's temper tantrum when he wanted to kill Loghain. Which makes me question how much of a king he is if he's still acting like a impulsive little kid after 10 years ruling.

Then again, maybe if Yavana was wearing some practical armor instead of a thong and corset, she might still be alive, if she isn't anyway cause Alistair didn't properly murder knife her.

Modifié par Brockololly, 03 mai 2012 - 09:02 .

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...

And thank you to those who read the entire series and enjoyed it! Hope you enjoy the story arc as it continues-- and, before someone asks-- yes, there is a finite length to this arc and a definite ending

I have this haunting suspicion you're going to kill off Alistair in the end. Or Maric. Either one seems likely. And then you'll feast on various tears that are shed by a lot of people.

Just a feeling mind you.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 mai 2012 - 09:29 .

[Addai]

David Gaider wrote...
Alistair wasn't seeking out Yavana. He was searching for his father. Yavana says that she will help him find his father, yes... if he's willing to get drawn into her web. The same web that caught up Maric and thus Ferelden itself. This is a woman who has been manipulative from the moment they met, using him as bait to get Aurelian Titus' name-- for Alistair's sake? Highly unlikely. The idea that him saying "no thanks" and trying to walk away, or somehow holding out hope that he could get more information out of her that wouldn't be some kind of deception, would be somehow the more mature and sensible path is a bit hard to credit (considering how well that worked out with Morrigan-- from his perspective).

Is Alistair doing the compassionate, white-knight thing here? Hardly. But, hey, if someone doesn't like what a character does, it's easier to just say it doesn't make any sense. Who needs to stop and think about something when you can just just declare that it's stupid "swashbuckling mayhem"?

I am thinking about it- aloud, as it happens- I was asking others who read it and found it badass, cool etc. to explain their reasoning since I don't follow how killing her was at all justified.  Let alone "white knight."

Why couldn't he have just walked away?  Yavana never once used coercive, blood magicky means or threats of violence to try to force him to help her.   He's the one who shows up in her swamp demanding answers.   I help you and you help me is how it works- surely as king he would have had to learn that that's how deals are made.  And it was a deal that, for all we and he knew, he was free to walk away from.  If she then had done something threatening, I could see the murder knife as being called for.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 mai 2012 - 11:06 .

[David Gaider]

Addai67 wrote...
I am thinking about it- aloud, as it happens- I was asking others who read it and found it badass, cool etc. to explain their reasoning since I don't follow how killing her was at all justified.  Let alone "white knight."

Why couldn't he have just walked away?  Yavana never once used coercive, blood magicky means or threats of violence to try to force him to help her.   He's the one who shows up in her swamp demanding answers.   I help you and you help me is how it works- surely as king he would have had to learn that that's how deals are made.  And it was a deal that, for all we and he knew, he was free to walk away from.  If she then had done something threatening, I could see the murder knife as being called for.

There's a big difference between it being justified and it being senseless-- or, as you intimated, bad characterization.

Let's not forget that, after reaching Yavana, she enticed him with answers and then sent him off into the swamps... presumably as bait to draw out Prince Claudius. She said as much. Then she offers him more answers, along with help to find Maric... why? And only if he does what she asks, but towards what end? Would she tell him? Could he believe her, or trust her even if he accepted her offer?

And could he have said "no" and just walked away? Possibly. I'm not sure I would say what he did then was justified or even moral, but it's not without reason. Consider that Yavana rescued Maric from the Crow prison... but not to free him. To use him in her rituals. Which got him captured by someone else. Her, Morrigan, Flemeth-- you don't think someone might get a little angry at the web of deceit these witches have spun? Might want to do more than just walk away? It's not a question of whether you agree with his actions, but whether they fit the character he is-- or whether they're really so astoundingly stupid that you can't imagine anyone doing them. With which I disagree.

But it's your dime. Still, you seemed quite insistent.

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 mai 2012 - 11:40 .

[Kavatica]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have this haunting suspicion you're going to kill off Alistair in the end. Or Maric. Either one seems likely. And then you'll feast on various tears that are shed by a lot of people.

Just a feeling mind you.

Don't give him any ideas.

[Ilidan_DA]

David, who is the mysterious woman in the picture? This priestess? Oracle?

[Who is that Masked Man]

"I could have said the right words. I could have offered her something in trade. I could have gotten a better answer, somehow."--Alistair, The Silent Grove, issue 4

"Justice." *stab*-- Alistair, The Silent Grove, issue 6

So, yeah. Bit of a leap in logic there, since the one main development between those two issues was the revelation that Yavana was using Alistair to reveal her enemy's identity.

Actually, their enemy's identity, since Alistair has declared his intention to kill Aurelian Titus too, and Yavana was offering to team up against the dude.

Yeah, Alistair stabbing Yavana instead of taking the trusting approach makes some sense. I had speculated earlier in the thread some of the same justifications you are offering now, Mr. Gaider. But it takes a fair amount of fanwank/reading between the lines to arrive at Alistair's line of reasoning, especially since the justification Alistair offers out loud is something completely different, and even comes as sort of a non sequitur.

Alistair hadn't expressed any outrage about Yavana's "abducting" Maric in issue 4... not out loud to her face, and not in his thought/narration bubbles after the meeting, either. So when he's suddenly all "You deserve to die, for kidnapping my daddy and ruining everything" it just seemed kind of weird, to me.

All in all, I found the ending shocking, yeah, but shocking as in "What?" Not shocking as in, "Wow, I never knew Alistair was so badass."

I still liked this series overall. I'll definitely be there for the next part. I'm just not sure what to expect from Alistair from this point on out.

Modifié par Who is that Masked Man, 04 mai 2012 - 12:02 .

[Kavatica]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

"I could have said the right words. I could have offered her something in trade. I could have gotten a better answer, somehow."--Alistair, The Silent Grove, issue 4

"Justice." *stab*-- Alistair, The Silent Grove, issue 6

So, yeah. Bit of a leap in logic there, since the one main development between those two issues was the revelation that Yavana was using Alistair to reveal her enemy's identity.

Actually, their enemy's identity, since Alistair has declared his intention to kill Aurelian Titus too, and Yavana was offering to team up against the dude.

Yeah, Alistair stabbing Yavana instead of taking the trusting approach makes some sense. I had speculated earlier in the thread some of the same justifications you are offering now, Mr. Gaider. But it takes a fair amount of fanwank/reading between the lines to arrive at Alistair's line of reasoning, especially since the justification Alistair offers out loud is something completely different, and even comes as sort of a non sequitur.

Alistair hadn't expressed any outrage about Yavana's "abducting" Maric in issue 4... not out loud to her face, and not in his thought/narration bubbles after the meeting, either. So when he's suddenly all "You deserve to die, for kidnapping my daddy and ruining everything" it just seemed kind of weird, to me.

All in all, I found the ending shocking, yeah, but shocking as in "What?" Not shocking as in, "Wow, I never knew Alistair was so badass."

I still liked this series overall. I'll definitely be there for the next part. I'm just not sure what to expect from Alistair from this point on out.

Um, Landsmeet, anyone? Alistair has always been all over the capital punishment. Especially when it is related to his family and/or country.

Modifié par Kavatica, 04 mai 2012 - 12:05 .

[Who is that Masked Man]

Alistair had been sounding off for the longest time about how pissed he was at Loghain for doing what he did, and how broken up he was about Duncan getting killed. Him wanting Loghain dead was not a shocker.

With Yavana, we got "I don't trust you. Or your mom. Or your sister." And then, "Ha-HA! Take that, evil one!" No where near the same situation.

[Kavatica]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

Alistair had been sounding off for the longest time about how pissed he was at Loghain for doing what he did, and how broken up he was about Duncan getting killed. Him wanting Loghain dead was not a shocker.

With Yavana, we got "I don't trust you. Or your mom. Or your sister." And then, "Ha-HA! Take that, evil one!" No where near the same situation.

Maybe because he didn't realize what she was up to until the end?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

Why couldn't he have just walked away? Yavana never once used coercive, blood magicky means or threats of violence to try to force him to help her.

Yeah, we saw how that worked out for Hawke at the start of DA2. Walking away isn't an option.

He's the one who shows up in her swamp demanding answers. I help you and you help me is how it works- surely as king he would have had to learn that that's how deals are made. And it was a deal that, for all we and he knew, he was free to walk away from. If she then had done something threatening, I could see the murder knife as being called for.

I'm kind of curious how many people arguing against Alistair's attack here thought killing Flemeth in DA:O was justifiable. She rescues the PC and Alistair. She offers to give you her Tome of Awesome if you'll walk away. While she doesn't deny Morrigan's allegations, neither does she admit they are true -- and even Morrigan will claim at the time that she doesn't want her mother killed, she simply believes there is no other way to gain the book.

But how many players (not player characters) thought it was right to kill her based on Morrigan's unproven accusation?

Anyway, considering Alistair's character and experiences with other witches and what apparently happens in the comic with Yavana stringing him along with more questions than answers (wow, that sounds familiar...), I'm not surprised he attacks Yavana. How he attacks her, from what I've heard, seems...sudden for him. An unexpected shanking...feels more 'shock! drama!' (see Witch Hunt) than personally fitting. Then again, maybe he thought it was safer to not let her change into a dragon, but at present that seems like a happy coincidence.

He has reasons for attacking her, but...I agree with Corker. How he attacked her is harder to rationalise. Even though he won't give Loghain a chance to surrender in DA:O, he never seemed the type to stab someone when they weren't in a position to defend themselves, or were otherwise unprepared. He couldn't even stomach doing that to Zevran, and Zevran tries to assassinate him.

I guess he's just grown up in a different direction to what most of us thought he would.

[Who is that Masked Man]

@ Kavatica But she didn't really tell him anything new at the end.

She'd already told him that she was "preserving" dragons. She had already told him that his bloodline was connected to this process. She had already told him that she had taken Maric, and why, and who set up the deal, and that she didn't kill Maric but that "someone else" might have.

And after all that, Alistair was still fantasizing about how maybe he could have made a deal with her. But then, when she actually offers him a deal, he's all "NO! YOU MUST DIE!"

So what accounts for his change in attitude? The way she used him as bait to draw out Titus... the man who stole Maric, and whose identity Alistair himself surely would have wanted to know?

Or was it mostly an emotional reaction to his general distrust of the witches? And the way she had him cornered alone in a dragon-filled pit without his friends when she made her suspicious-sounding proposal? And her insulting suggestion that what he wanted most was to duck his responsibilities?

The latter stuff actually makes more sense to me than "You freed my father from a Crow prison, because you wanted to use him for his rituals, which is something he had agreed to in a deal he made with your mother, and while you were doing this it indirectly resulting in his being kidnapped by a Tevinter person of some kind, which is clearly proof that you are evil and must die!"

[Addai]

David Gaider wrote...
*snip*

And could he have said "no" and just walked away? Possibly. I'm not sure I would say what he did then was justified or even moral, but it's not without reason. Consider that Yavana rescued Maric from the Crow prison... but not to free him. To use him in her rituals. Which got him captured by someone else. Her, Morrigan, Flemeth-- you don't think someone might get a little angry at the web of deceit these witches have spun? Might want to do more than just walk away? It's not a question of whether you agree with his actions, but whether they fit the character he is-- or whether they're really so astoundingly stupid that you can't imagine anyone doing them. With which I disagree.

Did she force Maric to go with her after freeing him?  Was she responsible for him being imprisoned, as others have suggested upthread?  As far as we and Alistair know, Maric went with her willingly, and she considers Tevinter dude an enemy so obviously his kidnapping wasn't in her plan either.  So what did she do to Maric that was so terrible?  Blaming Yavana for Maric running off and thus ruining Alistair's life and Ferelden seems very odd, and childish.  So is blaming her for Flemeth and Morrigan.  Alistair can suspect they're all in cahoots, but I don't recall that that was established anywhere.

If I'm insistent, I guess it goes to my level of puzzlement.  I liked some parts of the comic- the companionable moments between Varric, Isabela and Alistair, for instance- but the ending kind of ruins it.  And I think your explanations so far have made it worse... sorry.  LOL  It's nice that you're responding.  But here is why what you've said doesn't help me:  Sure, Yavana deceived him, was being manipulative, but that's 98% of the political leaders he'd meet at court, 100% of them in Orlais.  Would he gut an oily, manipulative diplomat in the middle of a negotiation?  Hopefully not, because there would be repurcussions.  Which leaves me to think he only did it here because she was an apostate and a woman alone (albeit a powerful one, though not using her power at that moment).  No one will care that she's dead.  So that takes it from baffling to icky.

[David Gaider]

Kavatica wrote...
Maybe because he didn't realize what she was up to until the end?

She was attempting to seduce him with an offer she thought would work-- freedom from the responsibilities of his blood. One might consider what that offer looked like from his end, and what it cemented her as in his mind. It's meant to be surprising, but I'm not sure it could be said to come out of nowhere.

[David Gaider]

Wiedzmin182009 wrote...
David, who is the mysterious woman in the picture? This priestess? Oracle?

Andraste, unless I'm misremembering. Being led by magisters of Tevinter off to her burning. It's part of a religious tapestry.

[Kavatica]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

He has reasons for attacking her, but...I agree with Corker. How he attacked her is harder to rationalise. Even though he won't give Loghain a chance to surrender in DA:O, he never seemed the type to stab someone when they weren't in a position to defend themselves, or were otherwise unprepared. He couldn't even stomach doing that to Zevran, and Zevran tries to assassinate him.

I guess he's just grown up in a different direction to what most of us thought he would.

I think it's logical to assume that having an entire country to defend would change a person.

[Face of Evil]

Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown.

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I am thinking about it- aloud, as it happens- I was asking others who read it and found it badass, cool etc. to explain their reasoning since I don't follow how killing her was at all justified.  Let alone "white knight."

Why couldn't he have just walked away?  Yavana never once used coercive, blood magicky means or threats of violence to try to force him to help her.   He's the one who shows up in her swamp demanding answers.   I help you and you help me is how it works- surely as king he would have had to learn that that's how deals are made.  And it was a deal that, for all we and he knew, he was free to walk away from.  If she then had done something threatening, I could see the murder knife as being called for.

There's a big difference between it being justified and it being senseless-- or, as you intimated, bad characterization.

Let's not forget that, after reaching Yavana, she enticed him with answers and then sent him off into the swamps... presumably as bait to draw out Prince Claudius. She said as much. Then she offers him more answers, along with help to find Maric... why? And only if he does what she asks, but towards what end? Would she tell him? Could he believe her, or trust her even if he accepted her offer?

And could he have said "no" and just walked away? Possibly. I'm not sure I would say what he did then was justified or even moral, but it's not without reason. Consider that Yavana rescued Maric from the Crow prison... but not to free him. To use him in her rituals. Which got him captured by someone else. Her, Morrigan, Flemeth-- you don't think someone might get a little angry at the web of deceit these witches have spun? Might want to do more than just walk away? It's not a question of whether you agree with his actions, but whether they fit the character he is-- or whether they're really so astoundingly stupid that you can't imagine anyone doing them. With which I disagree.

But it's your dime. Still, you seemed quite insistent.

Would Alistair's blood even work for Yavana's ritual? I mean, yeah, he's of Calenhad's line and all. But unlike Maric, Al's blood is kind of... corrupted. Using it to revive some almighty ancient dragon could possibly cause it to become tainted as well. And from past experience, trainted dragons are not good(archdemons.)

This might seem a little out there, but when Flemeth mentioned to Hawke that she didn't want to be followed(smuggling her out of Ferelden,) was it Titus that she didn't want following her?

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 04 mai 2012 - 12:54 .